Weak links

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/05/31 13:27:30 UTC

Wow... this thread is still going?
Hahahahaha... as if this is shocking?

Guys, take all your equations and stuff them. We all know bumbelbees don't fly right?

Any tug pilot will tell you that this is all bunk. Weaklinks don't "protect" you from lockout, but I'll be damned if I listen to someone tell me that they don't break during lockout.

Try to get behind me without a weaklink... try... I will not tow you.

Well Jim...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=43373
Bumble Bees

Davis Straub - 2015/07/22 13:31:05 UTC

In Charlie's garden on the Payette Lakes

http://ozreport.com/pub/images/bumblebees.jpg


They couldn't be bothered with us standing right next to them as they loved this flower (and no other) in the garden. Photo by Jan Johns.

Bumble Bees do fly of course:

http://www.snopes.com/science/bumblebees.asp
snopes.com: Bumblebees Can't Fly

http://www.livescience.com/33075-how-bees-fly.html
Explained: The Physics-Defying Flight of the Bumblebee

Looks like bumblebees actually CAN fly - according to all our equations, theories, physics. Even on the Davis Show where your total douchebag buddy and fellow 130 pound Greenspot Nazi is also incapable of spelling the insect properly.

Thread's not over - it's being kept alive here - but nobody's talking about 130 pound - or any other pound - fishing line anymore.

All tug pilots have become dead silent on ANY weak link issue - most conspicuously Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney.

Your weak link testing program partner and fellow tug driver buddy has died doing what he loved in his Dragonfly after making a rookie mistake under duress and extremely low - with no Rooney Link available to save his ass.

We haven't heard about one single weak link breaking in a lockout - or at any other time - in the past couple years.

EVERYBODY is now getting behind you effectively without a weak link - 'cause theirs are either the same strength as or heavier than your tow mast breakaway protector. And every last one of you Dragonfly motherfuckers is flying in flagrant violation of FAA aerotowing regulations and the u$hPa SOPs that you Dragonfly motherfuckers yourselves wrote.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 10:40:24 UTC

Am I "certain" about anything?
Nope.
However, some things get real obvious when you're doing them all the time. One is that weaklinks do in fact save people's asses.

Yeah. REAL obvious. Despite the fact that you can fix whatever's going on back there by giving us the rope (as, of course, can all of your highly qualified professional pilot colleagues) - these Rooney Link are saving people's asses several times a month during the season just behind you personally. We never seem hear any actual accounts or see any actual videos but it's real obvious that this high quality fishing line is saving people's asses. 200 and 350 pound gliders equally effectively. Proven system that works. Huge track record.

Let's be real generous and say that five percent of all US solo aerotows go up behind Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney and a bit stingy and call the point at which the accepted standards and practices changed with everybody suddenly becoming happy with two hundred pound Tad-O-Links two years ago.

At this point have forty Rooney Years worth of US Tad-O-Link aerotowing with ZERO asses having been saved or lost versus about eight pre Tad-O-Link Rooney Years with Rooney Links saving people's asses several times a month. What's the statistical probability that your claim wasn't a bald-faced lie?

You sold and force fed us this extremely expensive snake oil for decades and assured us that we'd all get sick and probably die without it and as soon as we stopped buying and swallowing it people suddenly stopped getting sick and dying.

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 06:04:23 UTC

Take this weaklink nonsense.
What do I "advocate"?
I don't advocate shit... I *USE* 130 test lb, greenspun cortland braided fishing line.
It is industry standard.
It is what *WE* use.

If someone's got a problem with it... we've got over ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND TANDEM TOWS and COUNTLESS solo tows that argue otherwise. So they can politely get stuffed.

As my friend likes to say... "Sure, it works in reality... but does it work in theory?"
Hahahahhaa... I like that one a lot

Care to comment on THAT reality - asshole?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=16265
weaklinks

Kinsley Sykes - 2010/03/18 19:42:19 UTC

In the old threads there was a lot of info from a guy named Tad. Tad had a very strong opinion on weak link strength and it was a lot higher than most folks care for. I'd focus carefully on what folks who tow a lot have to say. Or Jim Rooney who is an excellent tug pilot. I tow with the "park provided" weak links. I think they are 130 pound Greenspot.

So did you focus carefully on what Jim Rooney - who is an excellent tug pilot and has a very keen intellect - had to say?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Deltaman - 2013/02/16 22:41:36 UTC

How is that possible to write so much ..and say NOTHING !?

A decade's worth of blatherings about track records and how he and all his professional pilot buddies know what they're doing? Promises of unimaginable levels of death and destruction for the planes at both ends of the strings if we switched to 135 pound Greenspot?

And then the accepted standards and practices changed to something a lot higher than most folks care for and not so much as a reported skinned knee anywhere ever in the over two and a half years since?

Kinsley Sykes - 2013/02/17 16:04:16 UTC

Unlike sailplanes, the pilot is an integral part of the tow system. The breaking strength of an HG is a lot more than I can bench press, even one half of it's breaking strength if using a two point release. At some point, getting pulled through the control frame is going to be worse than almost any scenario I could think of. (and yes, no matter how easy it is to pull/bite whatever your release, at some point it's going to not work.. and if it jams and you have a 400lb weaklink (as was mentioned earlier) and you get out of sorts on your tow, explain how you are not totally F'ked?

Any reports of people being pulled through their control frames while their gliders have remained firmly anchored in place in the sky? Guess everybody who aerotows must've increased bench press capacity 54 percent or better. Must've been a real bitch for the hundred pound little girl pilots who must've been pretty stressed out to begin with flying our one-size-fits-all jobs.

Regardless of your release or your weaklink strength you will always have the chance of being released unexpectedly, so relying on tow tension to "fix" a problem won't always work. Conversely, you need to fly like you might come off the line at any time

Heard any reports of anyone being released unexpectedly? That's one problem the very very reliable bent pin release doesn't seem to have.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 13:47:23 UTC

Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.

Now that we no longer have the magic fishing line to save our asses we must be getting a lot of fatalities averted by Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney fixing whatever's going on back there by having giving people the rope.

Towing Aloft - 1998/01

Pro Tip: Always thank the tug pilot for intentionally releasing you, even if you feel you could have ridden it out. He should be given a vote of confidence that he made a good decision in the interest of your safety.

Think it's just a bit odd that none of the many people who owe their lives to Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney and his clones aren't very publicly thanking them and making huge contributions to their favorite charities? How come the Patron Saint of Landings is showered with praise from all corners of the Earth for putting them on the right path to perfected flare timing but nobody's uttered a single syllable's worth of gratitude for the critical expert lever squeeze that's made the difference between pulling out at six inches and getting a totaled glider and snapped neck?

Any thoughts on how we've been managing things as Pilots-In-Command - even with all the Industry Standard, pro toad, easy reach, bent pin shit these serial killing sociopaths force us to buy and use - without having pieces of fishing line and front end assholes making our decisions for us?

P.S. Here's another post we're never gonna read:

There I was, coming down in a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place. Dust devils breaking off left and right - most of them the invisible kind. Thought I was gonna die. But then I remembered the Zen technique from Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney's seminal Davis Show landings thread...

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=16265
weaklinks

Kinsley Sykes - 2010/03/18 19:42:19 UTC

In the old threads there was a lot of info from a guy named Tad. Tad had a very strong opinion on weak link strength and it was a lot higher than most folks care for. I'd focus carefully on what folks who tow a lot have to say. Or Jim Rooney who is an excellent tug pilot. I tow with the "park provided" weak links. I think they are 130 pound Greenspot.

So are you focusing carefully on what these assholes have to say NOW, Kinsley? Can you go to the website of a recognizable aerotow operation - Wallaby, Quest, Florida Ridge, Lockout, Foothills, Currituck, Manquin, Ridgely, Morningside, SOGA, Cloud 9, Whitewater, Cowboy Up, Wannabe - and find out what a "park provided" weak link was, what it was supposed to break at, and what it was supposed to work to do? How 'bout Davis pecker measuring contests?

Did you focus carefully on what folk who tow a lot had to say in and about the fourteen page article on 130 pound Greenspot "park provided" weak links in the 2012/06 issue of the magazine. Must've been pretty spot on 'cause not a single punctuation mark in it was challenged or questioned by a single one of the folk who tow a lot.

But then again none of the folk who tow a lot have had any comment on the two hundred pound weak links Davis and many of us suddenly became happy with a short time after one of the folk who towed a lot suddenly stopped towing a lot just prior to a 150 tumble back into Quest's runway.

Did you focus carefully on what Lauren Tjaden - one of the folk who tows a lot and an eminently qualified tandem pilot - had to say about weak link strength?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24534
It's a wrap

Lauren Tjaden - 2011/08/01 02:01:06 UTC

For whomever asked about the function of a weak link, it is to release the glider and plane from each other when the tow forces become greater than desirable -- whether that is due to a lockout or a malfunction of equipment or whatever. This can save a glider, a tow pilot, or more often, a hang glider pilot who does not get off of tow when he or she gets too far out of whack.

I rarely break weak links -- in fact, I believe the last one was some two years ago, and I have never broken one on a tandem (probably because I am light and also because I change them whenever they show any signs of wear). They are a good thing to have, though!!

She hasn't broken one in two years because she's really light, on top of that, does everything she can to reduce the probability of one working they're a good thing to have!! So if they're such a fucking good thing to have!! then why is she replacing hers every third flight? Why isn't she using dicards from heavy tandems to maintain proportional goodness? Why is she doing the precise opposite of what grade school arithmetic and any vestige of logic would predict and what u$hPa SOPs have always specified?

This stupid little girl who's trying to muscle these big tandem gliders with big thrill rider dudes with her under them through midday thermal turbulence - the kinda stuff that killed one of her dear pro toad friends and professional tandem thrill ride driver friends right after his weak link increased the safety of the towing operation (Can we agree on that much? That if there hadn't been any thermal activity Zack would've been fine?) - is saying in no uncertain terms that the performance of the weak link is directly proportional to the flying weight of the glider. So quote me ANYTHING from the entire history of US commercial aerotowing - the folk who tow a lot - specifying weak links proportional to flying weight.

And if you can't do that would you be so kind as to shut the fuck up about focusing carefully on what the folk who tow a lot have to say? 'Cause the only place you're gonna find anybody saying that weak links should vary in direct proportion to what's being pulled and telling flyers what a weak link is supposed to do is the flight park Tad runs.

Want a weak link that:
- is a good thing to have, though!!? Talk to Lauren Eminently-Qualified-Tandem-Pilot Tjaden.
- has a huge track record and works? Talk to Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney.
- makes Davis Dead-On Straub happy? Talk to Davis Dead-On Straub.
- protects your aircraft against overloading? Talk to the guy named Tad - who's a convicted paedophile.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=16265
weaklinks

Kinsley Sykes - 2010/03/18 19:42:19 UTC

In the old threads there was a lot of info from a guy named Tad.

There was? Did you find anything in it that didn't add up; didn't make sense; wasn't supported by data, evidence, incident reports, videos; was inconsistent with standards in conventional aviation and existing FAA regulations?

Tad had a very strong opinion on weak link strength...

I don't have OPINIONS on aviation stuff any more than I have opinions on what two plus two equals in grade school arithmetic.

...and it was a lot higher than most folks care for.

Oh. You took a poll and found out what most folk care for.

- Can I see your data on that?
-- Percentages, degrees of strong likes and dislikes?
-- Did you happen to record anything about flying weights and/or glider models and sizes?

- Did you:

-- have people fill out questionnaires so they could get into some detail on why they cared for what they cared for and their negative experiences with the stronger stuff they didn't care for?

-- find folk who found "park provided" weak links a lot - or a little - higher than they cared for? If not, shouldn't that have tipped you off to the likelihood that there was something wrong with that picture?

- How many of the people you polled were given choices in the selection of what they cared for? Like a 140 pound Greenspot weak link for the heavier and more experienced pilots?

- Did you ask Davis Dead-On Straub and Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney why, if most people care for standard aerotow weak links they need to threaten people with grounding to keep them from using Tad-O-Links?

I'd focus carefully on what folks who tow a lot have to say.

Why?

- You either didn't bother to read or couldn't find anything wrong to point out from the lot of info from the guy named Tad in the old threads.

- The folk who tow a lot certainly weren't deprived of any opportunity to debunk Tad's lunacy and either didn't bother or were totally unsuccessful in their efforts.

- You obviously haven't yet yourself focused carefully on what the folk who tow a lot have to say or you'd understand and be able to summarize it for the benefit of the rest of us muppets who don't tow a lot. So what did you do? Just toss a coin to decide what your fellow Jack Show douchebags should focus on?

Or Jim Rooney who is an excellent tug pilot.

- So when you say you'd focus carefully on what folks who tow a lot have to say you don't mean to focus carefully on what folks who ARE TOWED a lot have to say. You mean just the folk who instantly get a boost in airspeed and maneuverability as they're watching the folks in the mirror stall and crash back unto the runway. You should focus on what Billo, Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney, Mark Frutiger, Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey, Bill Moyes have to say.

- Yeah, let's get an update from that little Industry Standard twat. See if you can get him to construct a sentence of three words or more that doesn't flatly contradict a minimum of twenty of his previous pearls of wisdom.

- Have you focused carefully on what Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney who is an excellent tug pilot has said about all the times he himself has benefited from a fishing line Pilot-In-Command from either the front or, solo and tandem, back end? If you focus carefully on what Lauren Eminently-Qualified-Tandem-Pilot Tjaden says you'll find that while she's telling us muppets that they're a good thing to have, though!! all of her personal experiences with them have been major pains in the ass at best and scary and dangerous at worst - not even counting the time she welded the end of her tandem bridle to the tow ring and tore the towline off the tug with her appropriate weak link with a finished length of 1.5 inches or more.

I tow with the "park provided" weak links. I think they are 130 pound Greenspot.

So when the park provides them don't they tell you why they have strong opinions on them, what they're supposed to do, why Tad-O-Links and Tad must be avoided at all costs? Are there any other items that the park provides that are based on strong opinions that aren't understood by the muppets to whom they're provided? Beginner and topless gliders, harnesses, helmets, dollies, sunglasses, releases, bridles, wheels, gloves, parachutes, backup loops, hook knives, hook knife safety lanyards, fins, radios, varios, speed-sleeves, sunscreen?

Where are the hundreds of videos clearly showing all these "park provided" weak link precipitated saves? All I can manage to get my hands on are scores of videos clearly showing "park provided" weak link precipitated crashes and other inconvenience.

These motherfuckers have now had over three decades to figure out how to explain to us muppets what this fishing line is supposed to do for us and why we should use some particular flavor to work best. If they've been unable to do that with full control of the SOPs, magazine, officially endorsed textbooks and videos, schools, dealerships, flight parks, competitions, mainstream web forums then just how much positive difference could they possibly be making?

Is there NOTHING ELSE into which we could and should be putting our energies our time and energy? Our "park provided" releases are all the best possible within the scope of human engineering because the same park assholes who tow a lot and who've provided us with "park provided" 130 pound Greenspot weak links for decades have assured us that these are what most folk care for?

Wanna focus carefully on what folks who tow a lot have to say? Or Jim Rooney who is an excellent tug pilot?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Zack C - 2013/03/12 13:43:07 UTC

Depends on your weak link. 130? Sure. 200? Maybe not.

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/12 15:43:02 UTC

As I said before, the guys seeking these straight pins are doing so because they want stronger weaklinks.

Jim Rooney who is an excellent tug pilot has said that the very very reliable bent release...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21033
barrels release without any tension except weight of rope..

Bart Weghorst - 2011/02/25 19:06:26 UTC

But I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use two hands to get the pin out of the barrel.
No stress because I was high.

...is dangerously inadequate for anything over a pre 2013 "park provided" weak link. Now that the parks are providing the 54 percent stronger weak links that every man, woman, and child who tows a lot now cares for, are the parks also providing and requiring...

Lockout Mountain Flight Park - 2009/07/12

The new GT aerotow release, new as of July 11th 2009, is designed to be used with a V bridle and a 130-pound green stripe Dacron tournament fishing line weak link. At this time it is not recommended to use this release with a higher value weak link.

...releases with the capacities to handle them? Have you ever heard an advisory or a single one of the folk who tow a lot making such an upgrade?

You don't think there's anything wrong with this picture?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=43612
Lessons provided by Big Spring

Davis Straub - 2015/08/12 20:59:22 UTC

Thinking about flying

Why not. And if that overloads your concussion ravaged brain too much just go back to making proclamations you've pulled outta your ass.

Towed up by Tiki on the third day. I felt that she was flying too slow and therefore I was flying too slow.

Yeah, that's what got Bill Bennett and Mike Del Signore behind Dave Farkas and Arlan Birkett and Jeremiah Thompson behind Gary Solomon killed right after the front end weak links increased the safety of the towing operations.

To get her to speed up I should have pulled in and gotten below her to signal to her to speed up.

So should they have. Maybe Dr. Trisa Tilletti will put something about that in his syllabus and treat us to another Higher Education magazine article.

We hit some funky air, the line bellied, and for the first time ever I snapped a 200 pound weak link.

I went up again this time behind Jonny in a 914.

So now we FINALLY have confirmed all kinds of cool stuff you didn't want us to.

http://ozreport.com/rules.php
2015 Big Spring Nationals at Big Spring, Texas

2.0 EQUIPMENT

Weaklinks

Pilots must use weaklinks provided by the meet organizers and in a manner approved by the meet organizers. All weaklinks will be checked and use of inappropriate weaklinks will require the pilot to go to the end of the launch line to change the weaklink.

Weaklinks should be placed at one end of a shoulder bridle. The tow forces on the weaklink will be roughly divided in half by this placement. Pilots will be shown how to tie the weaklink so that it more likely breaks at its rating breaking strength.

Now the Standard Aerotow Weak Link is an inappropriate weak link. Show up with 130, go to the end of the fuckin' line where you belong.

Nobody any longer gives a flying fuck about the safety of the tug pilot.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31747
Lockout

Davis Straub - 2014/09/01 15:22:41 UTC

I can tell you that I fly with a 200lb weaklink on one side of my 750lb pro tow bridle. I am happy with it.

The ONLY reason you were happy with the 200 pound weak link on one side of your 750 pound pro toad bridle was because it had never worked - and thus you'd have had just as much reason to be happy with a 750 pound weak link on one side of your 750 pound pro toad bridle.

The fuckin' Dragonfly douchebags...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question

Jim Rooney - 2008/11/24 18:54:27 UTC

I'm confused. I never said the tug's ass was endangered. That's why we use 3strand at the tug's end. Using 4 strand can rip things off (it's happened). When forces are achieved that do break a 3 strand, your tail gets yanked around very hard, which does have implications as to the flight characteristics and flightpath. AKA, I have no desire to allow you to have the ability to have that effect on me when I tow you... esp near the ground.

Jim Rooney - 2008/11/24 23:38:01 UTC

It's not "uncharted territory"... you're just not aware of what's been done. Just as you weren't aware of the reason for 3 strand links on the tug.

...are no longer using idiot fucking three strand 130 idiot fucking tow mast breakaway protectors.

So how far over...

41-05323
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5550/11414145954_b4e394b54a_o.png


...did this Tad-O-Link take you?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=35257
The student on tow

Jim Rooney - 2013/12/21 21:51:46 UTC

Thank you for seeing the wisdom in an actual "weak" link.
I'm sorry you had to learn it the hard way.
Thank you again for posting this so that people can understand the severity of the decision to fly with stronger "weaklinks".

Cragin Shelton - 2013/12/21 22:35:03 UTC

The purpose of a weaklink is to break when stressed.
"Darn, my weaklink broke. I better fix it so it won't break."

Translation:
"Darn, my weaklink worked. I better fix it so it won't work."

Yeah, that makes sense.
"Darn, the brakes made my car stop. I better fix them so they won't stop the car again."

Paul Walsh - 2013/12/21 22:44:45 UTC

IF you wish to learn from this...sorry Davis...
LISTEN TO THIS MAN

Jim Rooney - 2013/12/22 00:03:46 UTC

The "purpose" of a weak link is to improve your odds of survival when things go wrong. Yes, preventing the glider from folding up in one thing it does do for you. Please don't try to convince me that that's all it can do.
A bit lower and this guy would have died.

Bill Cummings - 2013/12/22 02:35:29 UTC

Agree!

Tormod Helgesen - 2013/12/22 07:45:54 UTC

A perfect example of why the "strong weak link advocates" is so very wrong. I bet they'll start them rants again very soon.

47-05508
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7353/11414310093_ddeecbcbfa_o.png


How:

- did Tiki deal with the implications as to the flight characteristics and flight path of her Dragonfly? Did she hafta deploy or was she able to limp back to base under power?

- much extra damage did your equipment sustain?

- come neither of you blew the tow before the situation was allowed to go so dangerously tits up? She's a highly regarded professional tug pilot and you've been at an around all this plenty long enough to understand what's what and who's who.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/05 19:42:58 UTC

My god my head hurts.

Again, tell me how all this nonsense is about "safety"?

So, a stronger weaklink allows you to achieve higher AOAs... but you see high AOAs coupled with a loss of power as *the* problem? So you want something that will allow you to achieve even higher AOAs?
Are you NUTS?

I'm tired of arguing with crazy.
As I said many times... there are those that listen with the intent of responding... you unfortunately are one.

You've done a great job of convincing me never to tow you.
Thank you for that.
Mission accomplished.

If you'd used 300 pound Greenspot that had held, whose wings do you think would've been torn off first? Or do ya think there'd have just been a moderate tug on the line and you'd have continued the tow like nothing had happpened? Which it wouldn't have?

Davis Straub - 2013/03/06 18:29:05 UTC

You know, after all this discussion I'm now convinced that it is a very good idea to treat the weaklink as a release, that that is exactly what we do when we have a weaklink on one side of a pro tow bridle. That that is exactly what has happened to me in a number of situations and that the whole business about a weaklink only for the glider not breaking isn't really the case nor a good idea for hang gliding.

I'm happy to have a relatively weak weaklink, and have never had a serious problem with the Greenspot 130, just an inconvenience now and then.

I'm thinking about doing a bit more testing as there seemed to be some disagreement around here about what the average breaking strength of a loop of Greenspot (or orange) weaklink was.

So what ARE you using this weak link for, Davis? Not much good as an emergency release. We know from Marc Fink that 130 is useless below 250 feet so from that we know that you'd need over 385 to pull out with the stuff you're happy with now. Fuck that, just toss your chute.

This is fuckin' golden. Been waiting for it ever since the accepted practices and standards changed on 2013/02/02.

Sometime down the road we're gonna get a video of a nonevent lockout at altitude with 200 identified as the focal point of the safe towing system and it's gonna look exactly the same as it would with 130. And then sometime a little farther down the road some pro toad bent pin asshole's gonna die with 200 in a low level lockout and NOBODY'S gonna breathe a WORD about weak link strength. Ain't it great what you can accomplish with just one high profile pro toad inconvenience fatality!

Thousands of reputations are going down the toilet with the collapse of this third of a century Ponzi scheme.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/7230
Towing question

Martin Henry - 2009/06/26 06:06:59 UTC

PS... you got to be careful mentioning weak link strengths around the forum, it can spark a civil war

Yep, Industry Standards Expert Martin Henry... And it was a war more unambiguously between good and evil than anything else in the entire history of aviation.

This ABSOLUTE ROT:

Donnell Hewett - 1980/12

Skyting requires the use of an infallible weak link to place an absolute upper limit to the towline tension in the unlikely event that everything else fails.

Now I've heard the argument that "Weak links always break at the worst possible time, when the glider is climbing hard in a near stall situation," and that "More people have been injured because of a weak link than saved by one." Well, I for one have been saved by a weak link and would not even consider towing without one. I want to know without a doubt (1) when I am pushing too hard, and (2) what will break when I push too hard, and (3) that no other damage need result because I push too hard.

Furthermore, I will not use a mechanical weak link no matter how elaborate or expensive because there is always the possibility that it may fail to operate properly. In skyting we use a simple and inexpensive strand of nylon fishing line which breaks at the desired tension limit. There is no possible way for it to jam and fail to release when the maximum tension is exceeded. Sure, it may get weaker through aging or wear and break too soon, but it cannot get stronger and fail to break. If it does break too soon, so what? We simply replace it with a fresh one.

A properly designed weak link must be strong enough to permit a good rate of climb without breaking, and it must be weak enough to break before the glider gets out of control, stalls, or collapses. Since our glider flies level with a 50 pound pull, climbs at about 500 fpm with a 130 pound pull, and retains sufficient control to prevent stalling if a weak link breaks at 200 pounds pull, we selected that value. Of course, a pilot could deliberately produce a stalled break at 200 lbs, just as he can stall a glider in free flight. But if he is trying to limit his climb rate and the forces exceed the break limit, the glider simply drops its nose to the free flight attitude and continues flying. If the weak link breaks (or should the towline break) at less than the 200 pound value, the effect is even less dramatic and controlled flight is still present.

was the origin of the problem. "Let's make tow launches safer by throwing in a piece of fishing line intended to blow WHILE THE GLIDER'S UNDER CONTROL." And this sport was unable to produce one single individual with the brains, balls, and clout to call it out and help kill it at the outset when such action was so desperately needed.

And as the years rolled on and the Infallible Weak Link inevitably mutated into the hundred times as moronic and insane Standard Aerotow Weak Link and the gliders were crashed left and right because those safety devices were the precise and extreme opposite of what Donnell was proclaiming on the basis of his religious beliefs and expectations. And the Infallible Weak Linkers just dug in and started making more totally insane arguments...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/09/02 19:41:27 UTC

Yes, go read that incident report.
Please note that the weaklink *saved* her ass. She still piled into the earth despite the weaklink helping her... for the same reason it had to help... lack of towing ability. She sat on the cart, like so many people insist on doing, and took to the air at Mach 5.
That never goes well.
Yet people insist on doing it.

...lying like fuckin' rugs, misrepresenting the opposition's statements, dodging really embarrassing questions, ignoring obvious safety device precipitated catastrophes in pathetic efforts to preserve and protect their bogus credibility and reputations.

And the more stupid and sleazy these douchebags made themselves look and were revealed to be the more desperate, vicious, violent, and dirty their fighting became 'cause they'd put all their eggs in this rotted out straw basket. And prior to 2013/02/02 they still thought they could win.

If any of these motherfuckers truly believed any of the rot they'd been spewing for decades the civil war wouldn't have ended with the new universal popularity of the Tad-O-Link in 2013 - it would've EXPLODED. They'd have been SCREAMING for a return to the proven superiority of 130 and continuation of its long and immaculate track record and all the people who had decided they were happy with 200 hundred would've been forced to cave or at least compromise with 165.

And if any of these motherfuckers had been genuinely mistaken, confused, and/or misled we'd have heard their retractions and apologies.

The fact that there hasn't been a single individual ghost of either of those responses appearing on any horizon on the planet is indisputable confirmation/proof that ALL of these motherfuckers are incompetent, stupid, sleazy, lying pieces o' shit - as we've always known.

It WAS a desperate violent civil war with two very clearly defined and distinct sides, one of them very clearly won, the other was very clearly annihilated. Let's make real damned sure that we don't EVER let the losers start forgetting just who they are and help their worst fears become fully realized.

[Tad Eareckson]

Hey Jim...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 04:55:25 UTC

Ditto dude.

It always amazes to hear know it all pilots arguing with the professional pilots.
I mean seriously, this is our job.
We do more tows in a day than they do in a month (year for most).

We *might* have an idea of how this stuff works.
They *might* do well to listen.
Not that they will, mind you... cuz they *know*.

I mean seriously... ridgerodent's going to inform me as to what Kroop has to say on this? Seriously? Steve's a good friend of mine. I've worked at Quest with him. We've had this discussion ... IN PERSON. And many other ones that get misunderstood by the general public. It's laughable.

Don't even get me started on Tad. That obnoxious blow hard has gotten himself banned from every flying site that he used to visit... he doesn't fly anymore... because he has no where to fly. His theories were annoying at best and downright dangerous most of the time. Good riddance.

So, argue all you like.
I don't care.
I've been through all these arguments a million times... this is my job.
I could be more political about it, but screw it... I'm not in the mood to put up with tender sensibilities... Some weekend warrior isn't about to inform me about jack sh*t when it comes to towing. I've got thousands upon thousands of tows under my belt. I don't know everything, but I'll wager the house that I've got it sussed a bit better than an armchair warrior.

Currently everyone and his dog in the US is flying and completely happy with the 200 pound Tad-O-Link. Quote me one professional pilot advocating the Tad-O-Link prior to your professional pilot buddy Zack Marzec getting splattered on Quest's runway by his Rooney Link.

Also quote me one professional pilot advocating the Rooney Link subsequent to your professional pilot buddy Zack Marzec getting splattered on Quest's runway by his Rooney Link. Feel free to quote yourself. (And bear in mind that if you do you'll be the first person in three seasons to do so in a positive context.)

You said you'd wager the house that you've got this sussed out better than an armchair warrior not long before the accepted standards and practices changed to the Tad-O-Link. 130 to 200 pounds without the slightest pause in between. This is the equivalent of sussing out the sum of two plus two and getting 2.6. So where's this house and when can I fumigate it to make it tolerable in case you're still in it and pick it up?

How are you coming on sussing out the 200 pound Tad-O-Link that everyone's been so happy with the past three seasons?

Why was it necessary for you to suss out the 130?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 08:24:31 UTC

I don't advocate anything.
I use what we use at the flight parks. It's time tested and proven... and works a hell of a lot better than all the other bullshit I've seen out there.

130lb greenspot (greenspun?) cortland fishing line.
In stock at Quest, Highland, Eastern Shore, Kitty Hawk Kites, Florida Ridge, and I'm pretty sure Wallaby, Lookout and Morningside.
Not sure what Tracy up at Cloud Nine uses, but I'll put bets on the same.

Did I miss any?
Is it clear what I mean by "We"?
I didn't make the system up.
And I'm not so arrogant to think that my precious little ideas are going to magically revolutionise the industry.
There are far smarter people than me working this out.
I know, I've worked with them.
(Bobby's a fucking genius when it comes to this shit... for example.)

Bobby was too much of a fucking genius to explain it to you in terms your professional pilot keen intellect could comprehend? Are there any other aspects of sport aviation which:

- are too complex for a fucking genius to explain to a professional pilot with a keen intellect;

- but can be sussed out by a professional pilot with a keen intellect;

- but:

-- are still too complex for a professional pilot with a keen intellect to explain to an weekend warrior;

-- are impossible for any weekend warriors to understand even with a keenly intellectual professional pilot working on explaining them to him while the weekend warrior while he works on sussing them out?

Any progress on sussing out the new accepted standard and practice and getting results compatible with the results you got sussing out the old accepted standard and practice?

We've had near three seasons of universal Tad-O-Link use with only one documented break - unnecessary and undesired break as a consequence of a professional tug pilot and Davis, who's been at an around all this plenty long enough to understand what's what and who's who, fucking up a tow and zero reported Tad-O-Link incidents. And this one unnecessary and undesired break necessitated an extra landing and tow launch for both planes (and we all know...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 19:49:30 UTC

It's more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.

...that it's twice as dangerous to be on tow twice as it is to be on tow once (and the base level is certifiably insane when flying with a Tad-O-Link in the system)). So please explain to me just how the new accepted standard and practice is increasing the safety of the towing operations as well as a rabbit's foot would?

Why have we stopped at 200? 250 might have held through that double pooch screw and cut the danger in half. Why aren't we pushing the upper range of the legal limit? Tell me about all the death and destruction we eliminated by pushing and dropping off the lower limit for quite literally hundreds of thousands of tows conducted by numerous aerotow operators across the county?

P.S.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/10 22:58:21 UTC

I'm not bothered by straight pin releases.
I do think the strong link guys gravitate to them due to the higher release tensions that strong links can encounter.

How much progress have we made getting those straight pin releases you're not bothered by into circulation so that little girls can handle the higher release tensions they can now encounter?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=44058
Terry responds again

James Stinnett - 2015/09/10 14:08:31 UTC

Tow comps are super expensive to put on with the vast personnel and equipment requirements and although it does not prohibit me from going, I do know of many people that could not afford (or are simply unwilling to pay) $450 or so for tow fees.

Hey Davis...

http://ozreport.com/12.080
No one makes it back - Santa Cruz Flats Race, day two

Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 06:02:32 UTC

I was not the only one breaking weaklinks as it seemed for a while every third pilot was having this problem. You've got to get the keel cradle set right.

http://ozreport.com/13.238
Adam Parer on his tuck and tumble

Adam Parer - 2009/11/25

Due to the rough conditions weak links were breaking just about every other tow and the two tugs worked hard to eventually get everyone off the ground successfully.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Davis Straub - 2011/08/28 15:26:28 UTC

Then again, Russell Brown had us double up behind him after six breaks in a row at Zapata. We couldn't figure out why we had so many breaks so quickly. Maybe just coincidence.

Wouldn't it be significantly less expensive to run a tow comp using Tad-O-Links instead of Davis Links?

Tost Flugzeuggerätebau

- Use only the weak links stipulated in your aircraft TCDS or aircraft manual.

- Checking the cable preamble is mandatory according to SBO (German Gliding Operation Regulations); this includes the inspection of weak links.

- Replace the weak link immediately in the case of visible damage.

- We recommend that the weak link insert are replaced after 200 starts: AN INSERT EXCHANGED IN TIME IS ALWAYS SAFER AND CHEAPER THAN AN ABORTED LAUNCH.

- Always use the protective steel sleeve.

Possibly safer too?

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/4592
Weaklinks

Tracy Tillman - 2005/02/08 19:16:10 UTC

The sailplane guys have been doing this for a long time, and there are many hang glider pilots and quite a few tug pilots who don't understand what the sailplane guys have learned over the years. It certainly would help if hang glider towing methods and training were standardized to the degree that they are in the sailplane world.

The sailplane guys seem to think so.

Any chance we could use weak links geared for the glider model and size rather than whatever it is Davis happens to be happy with at any given moment?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=44067
The burdensome (monetary) cost of hang gliding competitions

Davis Straub - 2015/09/10 13:29:09 UTC

They cost way way too much

Let's just take a look at the recent Big Spring Nationals.
The towing fee was $450. If you took a practice flight on Saturday was $35.
With 38 pilots the total entry fee was approximately $13,500 and the towing fees were $17,100, for a total of $30,600.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 19:39:17 UTC

Weak links break for all kinds of reasons.
Some obvious, some not.

The general consensus is the age old adage... "err on the side of caution".

The frustration of a weaklink break is just that, frustration.
And it can be very frustrating for sure. Especially on a good day, which they tend to be. It seems to be a Murphy favourite. You'll be in a long tug line on a stellar day just itching to fly. The stars are all lining up when *bam*, out of nowhere your trip to happy XC land goes up in a flash. Now you've got to hike it all the way back to the back of the line and wait as the "perfect" window drifts on by.

I get it.
It can be a pisser.

But the "other side"... the not cautions one... is not one of frustration, it's one of very real danger.
Better to be frustrated than in a hospital, or worse.
No exaggeration... this is the fire that the "other side" is made of. Best not to play with it.

But Davis Link pops are just totally benign inconveniences.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/4593
Weaklinks

Peter Birren - 2005/02/08 19:22:49 UTC

What is the big issue? Re-launching? Oh, the wasted time! Oh, the hassle! Oh, the embarrassment! These are sure preferrable to Oh Shit!

You fuckin' dildos ever think about the hundreds of thousands of dollars of added towing costs and millions of dollars of lost flying opportunity damage your goddam fishing line has been wreaking over the years? And that's not even figuring in the wrecked gliders and trashed and totaled flyers.