Weak links

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=60556
My launch on Tuesday

Davis Straub - 2019/08/20 02:10:33 UTC

These are 60 horse power tugs, with no turbines. 582 engines. We have much more experience flying behind turbine powered tugs (although we towed behind these tugs in April at Wilotree Park (on grass at 125') in light winds.

Wow. And it's the LOW powered tugs at high density altitudes with which you're having the serious problems.

Jerry Forburger - 1990/10

High line tensions reduce the pilot's ability to control the glider and we all know that the killer "lockout" is caused by high towline tension.

Go figure.

Davis Straub - 2019/08/20 02:25:22 UTC

Again this is the first time we have experienced prop wash while on the carts. As I said, it has actually picked us and the carts off the concrete. Many of the other videos show it also.

But of course none of them nearly as clearly and decisively as the one of Prequel Davis.

We have always emphasized pulling in and getting the keel off the back cradle ASAP.

Careful, if you emphasize it too much you'll have people launching at Mach 5, SLAMMING into the propwash, subjecting the focal points of your safe towing system to massive loading, increasing the safety of the towing operations at the worst possible times - with the gliders climbing hard in near stall situation. But this is just an argument you've always heard. And all of you have similar opinions on this issue so I'm sure you'll be fine.

BTW, this is totally opposite of the method used at Wallaby Ranch where they there keep the nose high.

And Prequel Davis and you both did such outstanding jobs of staying pulled in. Go figure.

Ben Reese - 2019/08/20 02:31:29 UTC

The 1st 50' of aero towed HG is wrought with risk.

Lucky for us we're not the tugs. They need ten times that before they can start breathing easy.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=9084
Aerotow problem/question:Properly washed, I think

Jim Gaar - 2008/10/28 15:55:22 UTC

We always told towed pilots that the first 500 feet belonged to the tug pilot. They have enough to do to keep themselves safe.

Jim Rooney - 2008/12/11 18:45:01 UTC

Yup, the first 500ft are mine. Try to keep up. Your tugger generally REALLY wants to help you, and will do all that he can to do so, but he's got trees to stay out of as well.

Tall trees and stuff to watch out for. 'Specially places like Wallaby, Quest, Ridgely, Zapata, Big Spring.

We must be honest in risk assessment.

It’s just the other areas in which we need to keep lying like rugs.

An HG lacks aerodynamic control authority under tow behind an aircraft in those 1st 50' of altitude.

Then the air gets much thicker as we climb out and thus we see dramatic increases in control authority.

The prop wash and wingtip vortices combined with crosswinds and thermals breaking lose are extreme risks for an aero towed HG in the 1st 50'.

Conditions were pure hell for Prequel Davis and Davis. It's astonishing how well they both did in those circumstances.

That combination can overwhelm a HG's control authority of weight shift alone...

Even if either of those guys had exercised any control on those launches it would've been extremely iffy. We should probably make a Five a requirement for an AT rating.

Unless an HG has positive G's plus airspeed there is no control at all.

And both those guys were negative on the cart and rolling at VNE.

In these conditions of low airspeed and neutral 'G's during the 1st 50' of altitude the glider pilot is just going for a ride..

Both elements of airspeed and positive G's must be maintained at all times in HG flight for pilots to have vertical and horizontal control inputs..

The tow rope drags us through this dangerous phase of flight which most often goes unnoticed.. That is because for the most part it is very short in duration...

The cart is our buffer from the ground as we make the transition to controlled flight under tow.. The cart is not landing gear. It is important to understand this difference.

You must understand and accept how vulnerable you are in this 1st 50’ of aero tow..

Then you can choose the conditions your willing to accept in a launch..

Real information and understanding it is the major argument I have with the PG culture who are willing to accept unmitigated risk in every flight. If the new PG participants understood the true risk then demanded a fix for it, I would be elated and silent on the issue..

If we don't inform aero tow pilots of the true risk in the 1st 50' AGL then we are just as guilty of non-disclosure, even though our risk, comparatively is shorter and less likely to end badly.

Davis's launch Video is a glaring truth to my statements above.

You may disagree with the level of risk but you can't disagree with the science...

For many HG pilots, that level of risk is unacceptable, so they do not aero tow.

My personal feeling on the risk is: Understand it and face it scientifically with a plan for conditions I am willing to tow in. When those conditions exceed my level of confidence, I wait for another time or day...

This holds true for any launch method...

What a total fucking asshole. One of Bob Show Bob's top heroes now.

Davis Straub - 2019/08/20 02:46:55 UTC

The glider is flying as soon as it gets enough speed behind the tug.

How enlightening.

The pilot must definitely control the glider from that time all the way up.

Nah, I say we model after the guys who've been at an around all this plenty long enough to understand what's what and who's who and wait until after we lock out, turn sideways, bounce a tip off the runway, pray our Davis Link doesn't increase the safety of the towing operation , get dragged back into the proper direction by the 582 tug,

We pilots are continually doing this. We have plenty of control behind a tug at any altitude.

It's all those fuckin' muppet wanna be pilots who only do it every once in a while.

There are risks whenever you are close to the round. True launching and landing.

You're one of the biggest risks this sport has ever suffered.

Prop wash is an issue, but until this competition we have not experienced it as very much of an issue. We are learning about it after hundreds of tows (for me personally) and tens of thousands of tows for the community.

Fuck you and your community and the horses you rode in on. There's not a fraction of the collective brain power needed to see what was so obviously going on with these shit excuses for tows.

It is my experience that aerotowing for me is by far the safest means of getting into the air.

Just think how much safer it could get if you'd do us the favor of breaking your fucking neck.

This propwash / tip vortices rot is sounding a lot like the way Donnell...

Donnell Hewett - 1982/09

In addition to the above mentioned roll and yaw tendancies, there is some sideways force on the pilot due to the body line. This is illustrated below:



As can be seen, this sideways force tends to pull the pilot over to the correct side to make the glider turn naturally in the proper direction.

...jumped all over "adverse yaw" was overriding the roll autocorrecting property of his center of mass bridle. I think it's a pretty good bet that we've just entered an era in which all near and full catastrophic AT launches will be attributed to junk produced by and coming off of the tug. These douchebags have all signed on to this crap and have never been wrong about anything.

[<BS>]

Note in the two frames above the "dugout" for the keel on the bottom edge of the support. Looks like somebody had an idea that looked good on paper.

That's the old plumber's version for wrenching on keels.

[Tad Eareckson]

Had forgotten about that one. Brain's slowly but steadily dissolving. Also, contrary to an earlier impression I'd expressed, I'm still getting the same strobe flashes from my retinal issue at a moderate and pretty steady rate.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=60556
My launch on Tuesday

Ben Reese - 2019/08/20 04:48:39 UTC

Davis ,
A respected opinion as you have many more H-glider tows than me..

Extremely respected opinion. So while you have him on the phone there, Ben...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 09:25:57 UTC

But you see... I'm the guy you've got to convince.
(or whoever your tug pilot may be... but we all tend to have a similar opinion about this)

You've not heard about strong-link incidents.
Uh, yeah... cuz we don't let you use them.

Maybe you can get his respected opinion on AT weak links - and see if it's any more or less respected than the one he had eight years ago.

I like that you posted another video from another pilot experiencing the same dynamics you went through on a different day.

Me too. I really like it 'cause it's decent rez and everybody's agreeing that it's the same dynamics on a different day.

It provides valuable material for analysis and discussion..

You have no fuckin' clue how valuable.

Davis:
Another pilot...

Who's strangely not being identified and isn't participating in this discussion...

the day earlier: http://ozreport.com/pub/images/20190812_144801.mp4

Brad Gryder - 2019/08/20 09:37:39 UTC

Aerotow Pilots Should Release the Dolly Symmetrically

In this second video, this second pilot, just like the first pilot...

It's the SECOND posted video but it's from the day before so it's the FIRST pilot - you moron.

...allowed the glider to lift out of the dolly...

How very considerate of him. The glider wanted to lift out of the dolly so he ALLOWED it out. Me? I'm a real asshole. I force the glider to stay in the dolly until *I* decide it's time for us to come out. Then I continue being a major asshole and keep it pointed at the tug whenever it starts getting other ideas.

...in a severe asymmetric fashion.

Yeah, but what are you gonna do?

Observe the yaw differential between the dolly and the glider, and also the right roll of the glider.

I so do love it when you fly-boys use multisyllable words to describe incidents about which you're all totally fucking clueless.

The initially stable 3-point support system provided by the dolly has been reduced to an unstable single point support located forward and right of the cg.
The dolly is generating some rolling resistance in this skewed mode.
This temporary drag force is transferred up to the right cradle near the glider's right control bar/downtube junction, at this single support point.
This braking force on the right side makes the glider turn even more right.
It's a temporary shot of directional instability, and it's extremely undesirable.

Although quicker to get his chest uphill in an attempt to correct...

- How 'bout his head hips, legs? Did they come up too or stay behind?

- And his chest was perfectly OK where it was prior to that point. Ditto for Davis who suffered a similar issue with prop wash and tip vortices the next day.

...this second pilot's feet are still on the right.

STILL on the right? Like:

19-0507

Some hg pilots need almost constant reminders that they should be leading their control inputs with their feet and hips, not their shoulders.

ALL hang glider "pilots" GET almost constant reminders as to what they should be doing behind a tug the whole fucking time they're climbing to release altitude. It's a real unstable situation, its being done in thermal conditions if it's worth going up, and after somebody with half a brain or better has done it two or three times we don't see any problems. If they're not doing things real well they're gonna lock out in mild stuff. And lockouts at any altitude are fairly rare events even in heavy shit.

The problem is that you're supposed to be flying the glider on the cart and flying it up to speed on the cart. And neither of these assholes is doing anything like that.

In both videos, once that higher wing gets up in the higher winds and "sets sail", things get ugly pretty fast.

- The problem is that they HAVE a higher wing.
- Yeah that higher wind we're always encountering at ten to fifteen feet.

Aerotow pilots have handles which are intended to allow them to ensure synchronized release of both the left and right hold-downs.

And here I was thinking we were supposed to use the hold-downs to keep us on the fucking cart until we had and could feel crisp airspeed.

Why is the left handle being released either completely or allowed to slip loose in both videos? This is the beginning of the downrange problems.

Because these two assholes are totally incompetent at dolly launches?

If I fly with gloves, I never use them on launch. This is true regardless of my launch method.

I ALWAYS flew and launched with gloves and never had the slightest issue under any circumstances. Maybe you assholes need to go to Ryan Instant-Hands-Free-Release Voight clinics to practice with gloved hands gripping hoses at twenty pound pulls.

Some lightweight grippy gloves are better than others, but in my opinion the safest way to launch is without gloves.

Well I'll put you down in my field guide of pilots with opinions.

During launch - aerotow, static tow, foot launch, payout winch, or stationary winch - the hands are sensors and control devices. We'd better use them.

And without bare hands and that light touch that's so critical in all aspects of hang glider piloting we're all nearly as good as dead.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=60556
My launch on Tuesday

Tormod Helgesen - 2019/08/20 10:46:46 UTC

Davis Straub - 2019/08/20 02:46:55 UTC

It is my experience that aerotowing for me is by far the safest means of getting into the air.

True for you, the oposite for me, I have a total of no more than 75 tows and a thousand hill launches. And it feels like 10 minutes. Winching is easier in my opinion.

He didn't say easier. He said safer.

Davis Straub - 2019/08/20 12:32:48 UTC

Brad Gryder - 2019/08/20 09:37:39 UTC

In this second video, this second pilot, just like the first pilot, allowed the glider to lift out of the dolly in a severe asymmetric fashion.

I'm sure that in both cases both pilots were holding on with tight grips to the hose handle below the base bar. The handle was torn from their grips by the force of the left wing rising.

- The relevant portion of the force of the left wing rising can't exceed more than a moderate percentage of the weight of the cart.
- The left wing doesn't rise on a competently flown AT launch.

I'm sure that we were both wearing gloves. I had my slightly thicker gloves on that day. I normally wear extremely thin gloves.

Your point being?

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Grease-Monkey-Large-Gorilla-Grip-Gloves-25053-030/202709681

Davis Straub - 2019/08/20 12:35:58 UTC

I see the pilot all the way over to the left with his whole body as soon as the left wing rises.

Doing everything totally right then.

Brad Gryder - 2019/08/20 13:09:25 UTC

Using the keel as a reference line, it appears to me that this second pilot always leads inputs with his shoulders, while his lower body lags behind.

Amazing he's able to work thermals with no fucking clue as to how to turn a glider, ain't it, Brad? And how 'bout Davis? Prequel Davis doesn't need to bounce a wingtip off the runway to start following the tug again.

He's lag-twisting in the control frame.

If he's TWISTING in the control frame he's doing NOTHING in the way of roll control. Roll control is effected by lateral TORQUE inputs through the control frame and the glider doesn't really give a rat's ass how your body's aligned when it's feeling it. And there's NOBODY who's racked up any time with the turns needed to soar a dune or turn in thermals who doesn't know INSTINCTIVELY how to get a wing back down when he really needs to. It's a continuation of stuffing the bar when the nose gets popped up or in response to a stall.

Pilots will find that Power Steering is available to them if they will develop the habit of leading with their feet and hips instead of their shoulders.

Pity they all had such crap instructors and ratings officials, ain't it Brad?

Lead-Twisting in the control frame yields superior control when needed.

Lag-Twisting is a bad habit that can ruin a pilot's day.

Still waiting for a demonstration of:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Brad Gryder - 2013/02/21 23:25:31 UTC

There's also a way to swing your body way outside the control frame so it stays up there while you reach out with one hand and release. Come on - do some pushups this winter. See if you can advance up to some one-arm pushups.

Surely you could at least point us to a video - or maybe point us to an AT instructor for more on the technique.

I see only one brief point (~ Tie Stamp 5.0 sec) where this second pilot's body is aligned with the keel. At all other times he's lagging with his lower body.

This:

19-0507


is what he looks like at five seconds.

Wayne B. Ripley - 2019/08/20 16:35:52 UTC

I don't agree that Wallaby Ranch promotes nose high launch's, I have been flying there every year since 1994 and have witnessed many and been the pilot in many hundreds of launch's and I can not remember a launch in which the keel didn't come off the cart just before launch.

Define launch. If you mean lifting off the cart the glider's just over stall speed unless the "pilot" is actively holding the nose up. If you have an actual pilot on the cart he'll start pulling in as soon as he starts rolling in order to:
- pin the glider down on the cart
- reduce drag so's the tug can accelerate more easily and get the fuckin' job done
- keep the glider under max control in the event gets hit by something nasty

In other words the way all conventional fixed wing aircraft have been doing it since the beginning of the last century and large soaring birds have been doing it since the beginning of time.

Prequel Davis still has his keel pinned to the support at:

18-0425
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48585813356_e573ac08df_o.png


And here:

22-0525


we finally go with it having slid clear forward, up, and sideways.

I have been told many times to pull in on the cart before launch.

I never had to be.

Having been to both parks many times I can't see a difference between the two parks.

Yeah, they've both had incompetent quacks running and staffing them since their inceptions in the early Nineties.

Both parks are very safety conscience.

Constantly perfecting aerotowing - using only top quality precision fishing line to prevent their gliders from getting into too much trouble.

By the way, I still think the tug pilot should have hit the release...

Seeing as how we're no longer pretending that there's the remotest possibility of the glider "pilot" hitting any of the cheap crap excuses for releases that these two extremely safety conscious flight parks are selling them.

...and if you know what your doing...

...you spell "your" as a contraction of "you are".

...Aero towing is just as safe as foot launch and in some cases safer.

It's ALWAYS safer - by a factor of fifty. You don't get to include fringe activity incidents like these Prequel Davis and Davis pro toad clusterfucks.
---
2019/08/22 08:30:00 UTC

Accidentally chopped off three Davis Show posts and my responses prior to Brad's 2019/08/20 13:09:25 UTC on my first effort. Now amended.

[<BS>]

Pilots will find that Power Steering is available to them if they will develop the habit of leading with their feet and hips instead of their shoulders.

Look how well he leads with his feet and hips to actuate the right roll.

[Tad Eareckson]

Rubbish.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=60556
My launch on Tuesday

Davis Straub - 2019/08/18 19:14:37 UTC

All the hang glider pilots were going through what we all think is prop wash. You can see this in my video where I get "jiggled" a few second before the left wing gets lifted. We have multiple videos of this happening.

Davis Straub - 2019/08/20 02:25:22 UTC

Again this is the first time we have experienced prop wash while on the carts. As I said, it has actually picked us and the carts off the concrete. Many of the other videos show it also.

Propwash. Full agreement. Case closed. End of story. Stop trolling and go back to Tad's hole in the ground. While you're there, ask him why he was banned from every east coast flying site.

Ben Reese - 2019/08/20 17:30:52 UTC

To say that aero tow is safer than foot launched HG flights is ingenious at the very least..

And disingenuous at the very most. Even ingeniously disingenuous maybe. (Idiot.)

The essence of our sport is foot launched flight.

Thou hast proclaimed it so and thus it is.

Hang Gliding as we know it...

...is a total shit heap that's been controlled by incompetent dregs such as yourself since the beginning of time.

...would not exist without foot launched flight.

Correct. Untowed foot launch was a disastrous historical sidetrack from hang gliding as a flavor of legitimate competent aviation.

;You are not a real hang glider pilot unless you have mastered foot launched flight.

And perfected your flare timing. And since you need to do both in a dangerously compromised decertified aircraft configuration there's no such thing as a real foot launch and landing hang glider pilot.

Mastering Varied locations, conditions and altitudes of takeoff are mandatory skills.

Good thing you've mastered all that stuff - 'cause you're gonna have a hard time finding anyone else making that claim.

Learning to choose all of the above safely are critical elements of advanced skills.

Gil Dodgen - 1995/01

All of this reminds me of a comment Mike Meier made when he was learning to fly sailplanes. He mentioned how easy it was to land a sailplane (with spoilers for glide-path control and wheels), and then said, "If other aircraft were as difficult to land as hang gliders no one would fly them."

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28835
Why I don't paraglide

Tom Emery - 2013/04/17 14:29:12 UTC

Been flying Crestline about a year now. I've seen more bent aluminum than twisted risers. Every time another hang pounds in, Steven, the resident PG master, just rolls his eyes and says something like, "And you guys think hang gliding is safer."

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2095
Should we try a different way? Designwise....

Steve Corbin - 2015/09/02 22:26:04 UTC

Any un-biased observer should be able to see why wanna-be pilots find PG more attractive than HG. Standing around in the Andy Jackson Memorial International Airpark at a busy fly-in shows that a PG landing is a total non-event, while everyone stands up to watch HG's, piloted by "experts", come in to land. A good landing by a HG is greeted by cheers, an acknowledgement that landing one successfully is a demonstration not just of skill, but good luck as well.

With that said, there is allot more dynamics and energy in an aero tow launch compared to a foot launched flight. The towplane generates that energy. That energy is dangerous...

Sure Ben...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9230
Departing the launch cart

Jim Rooney - 2007/09/01 02:39:53 UTC

Which brings us to the reason to have a 914 in the first place... you need one.
Something made you get a 914 instead of a 582. 914s are horribly expensive to own and maintain. If you own one, you need it... it's a safety thing. Short runways, tall trees, whatever. You've got a 914 to increase your safety margin.

Whatever you say.

...and must be managed successfully..

So many planes queuing on so many runways wishing they had less power to manage successfully. Not like in light switchy air at shallow slope mountain slot launches at which everyone's constantly being assured that all they need to do to stay safe is to keep the nose up a bit and take it up to speed at an easy strolling pace.

In foot launched flight the energy comes from a head wind...

And if it's a cross or tailwind you just drive back home 'cause the mountain will always be there and you can work on mastering your foot launching next weekend - probably.

...up lift and your running speed.

But remember not to go nuts on the running.

You as the pilot control these forces alone and manage them.

We don't just control and manage them. We MASTER them. We ORDER the wind to straighten up; smooth out; knock it off with the gusts, lulls, rotors. And thus as absolute MASTERS of foot launch we tell anyone who offers to serve as wire crew to fuck off. Wire crews are for fags and girls - just like wheel landings.

In a towed launch you as a pilot do not control all the forces taking you aloft.

Nah, you can't command your tug driver to do exactly what you want him to - the way you do with all the air currents at a mountain launch. No telling what he's gonna do or where he's gonna go with that Dragonfly. And there's no way to abort the launch with our easily reachable releases 'cause we're gonna need both hands on the control bar at all times to earn our mastery points as efficiently as possible. Also no assurance of being able to continue the flight due to the focal point of the tug's safe towing system.

That energy is measured in ground speed and that is why you use the cart.

And there's never any energy component contributed by any headwind vector.

Yes it is possible to launch from feet and run behind tow plane. But it is extremely dangerous in transition...

- A lot of us who were around at the beginning of AT foot launched for first time without incident - myself included.

- Whereas foot launching and transitions at the mountain are totally safe 'cause there are never any compromising variables. See how easy that was to master?

Adding all the forces encountered in aero tow launch,Prop Wash, Wing Tip Vortices, Cart to Air transition. Add the independent decisions of tug pilot...

Like fixing whatever's going on back there...

27-0721


...by giving us the rope?

...and the glider pilot who react to the turbulence encountered that is unseen and based on when their craft go through it? Add also you are relying on a complex aircraft to run properly without fail...

What a load o' total crap from Emperor Bob's new favorite douchebag. And not a single whisper about shit equipment and mandatory appropriate weak links with finished lengths of 1.5 inches or less. I wonder if he's ever heard of any real world AT fatalities.

Sorry, you are wrong about your assertion that aero tow is safer... It may feel safer, but that is because you have not thought this through.

The way you have with your vastly superior intellect and unique insights into AT.

It is safer for you to develop the skills of foot launched flight...

What? We don't need to master them anymore?

...so you as the pilot control almost all the forces giving you flight...

'Cept, of course, for details like air movement, gravity, terrain. But don't worry, when you master this stuff you'll have superhuman strength to render them all insignificant.

I am not against towing...

Just grade school kid level intelligence, education, common sense.

it's fantastic and needed for some places..

Like for the 99.9 percent of the country that doesn't have access to practical mountain launch and landing options in any kind of reasonable range?

But it is not safer than foot launched flight. It is this kind of false narrative even though it's innocent and without malice, which causes people to have false security that is extremely dangerous.

- Just like the feeling of false security you get from a lift and tug hook-in check. That's why I don't teach it.

- Wow. You alone have access to all the world crash data and expert analyses from everywhere on the planet for the last third of a century. I'm extremely impressed.

I know you mean well, but if you can't reason this out for yourself and correct your own assumptions, then this might explain why people keep getting hurt.. Aviation and flight must be based on facts not assumptions.

You so totally nailed it, Ben. (Good thing for you the Davis Show is as intellectually castrated as it is now.)

They cannot be based on, it feels safer to me. Why does it feel safer? Because you have mastered the needed skills to manage safe launches under aero tow.

Can you show me a video illustrating AT skills mastery? I mean with better resolution of the illustrations of the mastered issues than we have with Davis handling the propwash issue.

Those skills are different from foot launched skills you have not mastered. If you had mastered foot launched flight you could not say aero tow is safer.

It's astonishing you're able to maintain a pulse with brain wiring like that.

Besides the science proves it is not safer...

And those scientists all have clipboards and lab coats so you'd do well to listen up good.

Jim Gaar - 2019/08/20 17:47:56 UTC

Different strokes...

Wayne B. Ripley - 2019/08/20 16:35:52 UTC

I don't agree that Wallaby Ranch promotes nose high launch's

Maybe they feel that it initiates or optimizes the keel coming out of the keel stand? I always hated too high a keel stand as if the PIC did not resist first and then pull into trim (or hold at trim for said wing type) you might stick on the cart or worse lift off early.

Maybe you should try abusing fewer chemical substances before attempting to write sentences.

It's a tough job to learn these skills.

Only the best of the best are ever able to master them.

Uniformity is key and it's seems that does prevail within the sport.

Hence the Standard Aerotow Weak Link.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Gaar - 2013/02/13 17:57:05 UTC

Former Flight Park Manager

Because it has the best known and accountable safety record (in my personal books anyway).

Funny we're not hearing much about it anymore nowadays.

Early prop wash was never an issue for our AT club as we used a Blue head 582.

Generates much later propwash. Very rarely a problem.

I towed at Florida Ridge behind the turbo trikes (or at least the big 100 hp Rotax) and did not have an issue except for the extreme rate of climb!
Got use to that quickly.

Did you get any coaching...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9230
Departing the launch cart

Jim Rooney - 2007/09/01 02:39:53 UTC

I don't tow solos under full power... you could't keep up with me if I did. I wouldn't be going faster horizontally, but my acceleration and climb rate would be so extreme that most pilots couldn't keep up the timing needed to make it work. (I think Bo's the only one I've successfully towed at full boost)

...from Bo Hagewood? Can you give us muppets any tips on keeping up the timing needed to make it work?

Jim Gaar - 2019/08/20 17:52:30 UTC

In ones own mind maybe...

Ben Reese - 2019/08/20 17:30:52 UTC

Besides the science proves it is not safer...

I would like to see that stats on that one! Foot launch is and can be just as dangerous as AT.

IS and CAN BE? Pick one.

There are lots and lots of bad FL technique and accidents/incidents on the internet that will bear this one out.

Also lots and lots of good FL technique and accidents/incidents on the internet that will bear this one out. We often lack some of the ultimate control over Mother Nature that Ben insists we have.

We've been foot launching for decades and blowing launches in that manner just as long.

Only by those who've measured short of the mastery level.

As has been said already, one makes it as safe as one can!

And with douchebags like you and Davis running around loose the degree to which anyone is able to make anything safe is extremely limited.
---
P.S. Note amendment at the beginning of my 2019/08/22 00:11:27 UTC - two posts above.

[<BS>]

Different strokes...

I don't agree that Wallaby Ranch promotes nose high launch's

Maybe they feel that it initiates or optimizes the keel coming out of the keel stand? I always hated too high a keel stand as if the PIC did not resist first and then pull into trim (or hold at trim for said wing type) you might stick on the cart or worse lift off early.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question

...Gee, didn't think we'd have to delve into "pilot in command"... I figured that one's pretty well understood in a flying community.

It's quite simple.
The tug is a certified aircraft... the glider is an unpowered ultralight vehicle. The tug pilot is the pilot in command. You are a passenger. You have the same rights and responsibilities as a skydiver.
It's a bitter pill I'm sure, but there you have it...

Does PIC stand for passenger in command?

[<BS>]

I propose a prop wash/hold-down test. Passengers hold tightly to the cart hold-downs as a wing is lifted enough to raise a front wheel. Duplicate the test on the other side to insure adequate grip on both sides. Failures go to the back of the line.

[Steve Davy]

Failures, such as this idiot:

get to go to the front of the line.

[Tad Eareckson]

Wow. Three new consecutive posts by two authors - neither of whom is me. What a treat.
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http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=23813
Threaded bridle system

Jim Gaar - 2011/05/26 15:44:33 UTC

Beyond that I'm a Rooney follower...

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And here's what I was thinking along those lines... Do a propwash worst case scenario drill.

Morningside, New Hampshire. Runway - 417 feet MSL. In March before the season opens. Early morning, clear, low humidity, 32°F, 10 mph north wind. Low fucking density altitude.

914 Dragonfly
T3 154 big topless bladewing
Min 185 pound hook-in pilot
launch cart

Warm up the tug, point it into the wind, brakes on.
Glider on the cart, fifty feet behind and pointed at the tug, pulled in.
Cut in the afterburners and see if the glider has the slightest problem with propwash.
When you find that it doesn't close the distance, repeat...
Get it on video.

That would put a very definitive stake through the heart of decades worth of this propwash bullshit. And it would also embarrass the crap outta all these Flight Park Mafia douchebags (the way the 2011/08/11 abrupt cave to the Tad-O-Link did) so you can bet your bottom dollar they'll never let that happen.

But failing that we already have a fairly reasonable facsimile - from Forbes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfwsTtAZOrw


From three months ago in this topic:

http://www.kitestrings.org/post11534.html#p11534

The full stills project. And let's take a look at a few excerpts.
04-0514
- 04 - chronological order
- 05 - seconds
- 14 - frame (60 fps)

Second set of figures is elapsed time in seconds from beginning of forward movement.

Pro toad.

04-0514 - 00.00
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47923581677_0a17a1dd9c_o.png


Pulled in. (Funny we don't see her having to brace herself against being pulled through the control frame and piled in on her face.)

05-0844 - 03.50
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47923581632_4416ea9aaa_o.png


http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=60556
My launch on Tuesday

Davis Straub - 2019/08/21 01:12:14 UTC

Malcolm's point (according to Mick) was that if the pilot pulled through the control frame and smacked into the grounds he was likely dead. If he mushed off the cart stalled he would likely crash but not killed himself.

Good luck with that, Sasha.

Keel's lifted (out of its dugout).

15-1414 - 09.00
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47923580837_a14d8bb519_o.png


Cart front wheel(s) up.

16-1422 - 09.13
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47923580428_1e00c5a74e_o.png


Dumping the cart symmetrically.

17-1434 - 09.33
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47923582036_e9ce602043_o.png


Nosing up.

18-1440 - 09.43
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47923580232_6b53482bfc_o.png


Pulled back in (a lot farther than she'd need to be with a sane bridle) to hold altitude and wait for the tug to come up.

22-1520 - 10.10
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47923580032_63ba66f8dd_o.png


Davis Link increases the safety of the towing operation. Pilot and Passenger In Command breathe huge sighs of relief.

25-1540 - 10.43
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47923579717_6c33612cc1_o.png


Get that gear down. Can't land safely without the gear down. (And don't sweat the airspeed too much.

34-1834 - 13.33
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47923578612_2ea8e8772f_o.png


Propwash devastation. (The dust's from the retrieval ATV - not the tug.)

38-1954 - 14.67
http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47923577933_74ac874d72_o.png


You need to watch the video at normal speed but she DOES get bounced a fair bit by the propwash - BUT:
- She's:
-- banked and has her whole undersurface faced into it pretty well.
-- slow as hell getting ready for her idiot foot landing with perfected flare timing.
- even then it's no big fucking deal. She comes through it like nothing happened.

Pretty good smoking gun video with respect to these idiot Big Spring incidents and the ensuing idiot Davis Show discussion. Also pretty good bet that the ensuing idiot Davis Show discussion is now dead after 82 posts, zero references to the focal point of our safe towing system, and near total zilch in the way of indications of intelligent life.