Weak links

[<BS>]

Yeah but that's a garden variety, grass fed, late bloomer propwash from Down Under. Probably spawned by a Blue head 582. Totally different critter than the newly discovered, cement hardened, Big Spring early variety.

Again this is the first time we have experienced prop wash while on the carts.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=60556
My launch on Tuesday

Wayne B. Ripley - 2019/08/20 18:02:15 UTC

I don't want to get into a pissing contest about which type of launch is safer but I have been flying since 1973 and have flown from the Ownes valley to Grandfather mountain. In all those many launches I have flown in conditions that could only be called unsafe and at times paid a price from bad judgement. I didn't count all my aero tow launces but there are hundreds and in all those many launches I have NEVER had an accident and in all the thousands of launches witnessed I have witnessed very few bad launches and very few if any that required medical attention, I can not say that about foot launches. There is not a definitive answer to this question...

Bull fucking shit. You just gave us a massive helping of anecdotal evidence that matches everyone else's and conforms to common sense expectations.

The mountain launch is an inherently dangerous and hostile environment. You're majorly exposed to the elements:
- high level winds - straight, cross, curling, switching
- thermals coming through like freight trains
- rotors
- wire crew
- ramps, slots, cliffs, rocks, trees

We're having this discussion as a consequence of two serious AT launch incidents - both precipitated by bullshit spewed by high level instructors and unfathomable incompetence and stupidity. Both gliders flew out of their situations smelling like roses - the first totally unscathed, the second with some minor scuffing of the starboard tip.

Pretty much the same incident at a foot launch mountain site. Incompetent idiot fucking instructor dissuades his victim from moving his glider forward into brain dead easy smooth strong air because it's too dangerous for his ten miles south of useless idiot fucking nose man down there. Port wing flies...

92-61040
http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1902/31734429728_cf5281c3f2_o.png


...starboard wing doesn't.

55-13006
http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1903/44692722325_c8e4f87837_o.png

59-13044
http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1911/31734436378_1c30a34e4e_o.png


Career over. Show me some videos of this happening at one of those AT operations where they yank fifty gliders up in the course of an afternoon. We can find TONS of these ground looped blown mountain foot launch videos. I have a seriously rearranged right foot that's caused me nonstop pain and discomfort since the evening of 1992/06/20 because of one of them.

...if you feel safer foot launching then stick with it,

Like Russian roulette - so far so good.

I know we all started this way...

No we didn't. There was never a point in the history of the sport in which some fraction started by and stayed with towing. The first ever time I had a glider up substantially over dune height was towing - frame-only connection.

...but then again well started walking before we started flying...

Not necessarily. You don't need to be born with a functional pair of legs to later become a competent comp pilot. You can do just fine if your other two limbs work OK.

...so as Dylan said "the times they are a-changing" and we must change with them.

You are - but 180 degrees in the wrong direction.

Ben Reese - 2019/08/20 20:20:07 UTC

It's not a pissing contest..

No, it's a shitting contest.

I have been flying HG since 76 and I have never blown a launch that was not training..

Well, we're all always students so that's not really saying anything. No, wait. You've mastered everything already. I stand corrected. You da man.

All the places you have flown many I as well.

Amazing the way someone at your literacy level is able to do so well in all aspects of the sport.

There is much more going on in an aero tow. My point is a fact. More can go wrong, fact.

2 pilots and 2 aircraft, the math says more can go wrong..

Goddam right. Mother Nature will always be doing a much better job of looking out for your wellbeing than another pilot doing his job.

But the history shows that aero tow can be done in relative safety. Professional Tug Pilots and well trained HG Pilots..

And an appropriate weak link with a finished length of 1.5 inches or less.

Much to be proud of in this..

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 13:47:23 UTC

Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.

But denying the risk because you do it safely is a mistake inconsistent with the skill it takes to do it safely.

Doesn't take shit worth of skill to do it safely. If it did we'd need dump trucks to clear the bodies from the airfields two or three times over the course of a good weekend day. It takes solid sane equipment, basic flying proficiency, and common sense. If you're gonna maintain there's skill involved then show me a video on someone on either end demonstrating it.

Acknowledge that risk and mitigate it.

I don't MITIGATE risks. I ELIMINATE them. I leave mitigation to Tim Herr, Mark G. Forbes, and Davis Straub. Risk mitigation is Russian Roulette with more empty cylinders for the one that isn't. Cite one AT crash that impacted because the risk wasn't mitigated.

Obviously your doing that whether you admit it or not..

Suck my dick you pompous pseudo-intellectual asshole.

I like towing, nothing against it.

Go for it then. Mitigate the risks. Get some state-of-the-art equipment from Mission. And see if you pick up some partially used spools of 130 pound Greenspot from some of the AT parks.

That 1st 50' is when my heart is pounding, adrenaline rush...

Cool. Ease up on some of the risk mitigation a bit for more exhilarating launches.

Me? I'm on edge and equipped and wired to blow off if I get into something monumentally ugly before I've gotten some cushion of air below me. But I find that the opposite of exhilarating and for the rest of the climb I'm just concentrating on doing my job. When I want exhilaration I hit cloudbase or thermal with Redtails or Eagles.

After that I can release....

After you've cleared the Exhilaration Zone and can afford to make the easy reach to your bent pin Industry Standard equipment.

...or stay on tow, all up to me.

Or the focal point of your safe towing system - most likely when you're climbing hard in a near stall situation.

But that 1st 50' agl you are going for a ride.

Versus the total safety you have getting airborne in thermally conditions running off the ramp and out of the slot at Woodstock. But you've mastered that shit.

Like Davis did on video, stay attached through it is best..

Like the stupid motherfucker...


http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident2.jpg
http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident3.jpg


...had some kind of choice.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Davis Straub - 2013/03/06 18:29:05 UTC

You know, after all this discussion I'm now convinced that it is a very good idea to treat the weaklink as a release, that that is exactly what we do when we have a weaklink on one side of a pro tow bridle. That that is exactly what has happened to me in a number of situations and that the whole business about a weaklink only for the glider not breaking isn't really the case nor a good idea for hang gliding.

I'm happy to have a relatively weak weaklink, and have never had a serious problem with the Greenspot 130, just an inconvenience now and then.

I'm thinking about doing a bit more testing as there seemed to be some disagreement around here about what the average breaking strength of a loop of Greenspot (or orange) weaklink was.

If it's really bad release and deal with it..

If it's a really bad release...

http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7077/27082298482_cda1aba01b_o.png


...you can count on other people having to deal with it.

The ground crew were worried in both vids.

I would've been too watching total morons doing the same thing over and over again expecting better results. No wait. The second one was Davis and I'd have been totally exhilarated anticipating the impact - and majorly deflated after he lucked out.

Only the HG pilot can decide if control is enough to escape a wing drag...

Tell me what Davis decided and executed on that one that a two hundred pound sack of potatoes wouldn't have.

These are very good and valuable discussions, I respect your opinions and observations..

You're more than welcome to them - dickhead. And, now that this one's been dead for over 48 hours, please do tell me what one participant or reader will start doing differently to achieve better results.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=60556
My launch on Tuesday

Davis Straub - 2019/08/21 01:12:14 UTC

There was an exposition of the Wallaby Ranch/Malcolm method during our competition.

Great Davis. But I think we got all we really needed on the Wallaby Ranch/Malcolm method from:

17-1821
http://c1.staticflickr.com/1/962/40373978690_9aef9ff7ca_o.png


Not to mention:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=17092
Crash at Questair

Alfie Norks - 2010/06/03 12:24:40 UTC
Brazil

Speedy recovery to the pilot in question.
It could have been worse. It could have happened at...the other place (but nothing happens there. ) Good luck if it does. No 911 calls allowed. My friend was lucky, the nurse on hand convinced the owner not to move him, this after he snatched and threw her phone away. She was trying to dial 911. My friend suffered lower back injury.

I believe that it was Mick Howard who explained why Malcolm wanted pilots to push out from the very beginning of the tow and wanted a high angle of the glider on the cart.

To make cart retrieval a lot easier?

Malcolm's point (according to Mick) was that if the pilot pulled through the control frame and smacked into the grounds he was likely dead.

KEEEERISTE!!! I never considered that before! Let's find a solution to this lethal problem before somebody does this and kills himself - or worse!

If he mushed off the cart stalled he would likely crash but not killed himself.

Alright then. Let's get some mushing clinics started immediately. Mushing, crashing, and surviving is obviously the way to go. A mere inconvenience when you consider the alternative.

I recall seeing Jim Lee come off the cart stalled at Wallaby Ranch and going sideways.

OK. We have somebody who's got a pretty good handle on this technique. Let's get him to amend the Pilot Proficiency System SOPs appropriately. I like the sideways option 'cause that keeps you from getting run over by the cart. (See photos below.)

Perhaps I can ask Mick if he was in fact the person who told us about this...

No, I was involved in conversations with Mick on the Houston wire before they voted me off the island and Zack founded Kite Strings so's we could exclude all opinions which weren't ours. Pretty safe bet that he was in fact the person who told us about this.

...and I'll see if he would explain it in his own words.

I can hardly wait!

BTW, Malcolm only uses Dragonflies with 582 engines.

Gotta be careful with those, They generate a lot more propwash than the 914s.

Davis Straub - 2019/08/21 01:17:11 UTC

I'm always very calm when launching.

Cool as a fuckin' cucumber...


http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident2.jpg
http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident3.jpg


All the way to impact. Hands never leave the control bar until there's no longer any point.

There was a study of hang glider pilots which I participated in. It was foot launching. I was by far the most calm pilot with no jump at all in heart rate.

Did they also scan for brain activity? If so did they find any? There might be an interrelationship thing going on.

Davis Straub - 2019/08/21 01:22:13 UTC

The conditions for foot launching can be highly variable if one flies all over the world as I have. By far the best foot launch conditions in the world can be found at Montecucco in Italy and we have the Romans and their need for wood for ships to thank for that. One can walk then trot then run at the hill at that site.

Wouldn't it work better to run down and then fly away from the hill at that site?

I would rather foot launch there than aerotow.

I also would rather you foot launch there than aerotow. It's so wonderful to be finding some common ground.

Davis Straub - 2019/08/21 01:23:28 UTC

Ben Reese - 2019/08/20 17:30:52 UTC

To say that aero tow is safer than foot launched HG flights is ingenious at the very least..

I can only agree.

Yet more common ground.

Davis Straub - 2019/08/21 01:36:48 UTC

Again, I see personal references here.

You should come over here and look around a bit - motherfucker.

I have repeatedly asked those who post here to stop making personal references.

Yeah, with the kinda douchebags you cultivate over there it's bound to be a pretty overwhelming task.

To stick with the issues only.

Unless, of course, they start drawing attention to your fundamental stupidity, incompetence, and sleaziness.

Am I not being clear enough?

Never as much as you were when you mandated the long track record one-size-fits-all Standard Aerotow Weak Link for all participants at your pecker measuring contests as the foundation of your risk mitigation plan.

What does it take to have this behavior end?

Tripling the rate of bannings of people with higher double digit and better level IQs?

Does it require me to ban certain folks?

Obviously. When did doing the same thing over and over fail to yield better results? I'd start with Wayne for the time being.

Is my pleading not enough to change behavior?

Maybe try sucking a few of the cocks of your most compliant members.

Davis Straub - 2019/08/21 01:42:06 UTC

Tug pilot Jim Prahl cautioned us to leave the rope in the middle of the control frame and move the hips from side to side.

Goddam right. We see so many people locking out 'cause they're not leaving the rope in the middle of the control frame and moving their hips from side to side. Untold scores of videos. I'm pretty sure that's a big factor in the two incidents we're discussing here.

Brad Gryder - 2019/08/21 01:55:05 UTC

Yes, Jim knows aerotowing.

- Well not nearly as much as Malcolm knows towing.

http://www.wallaby.com/aerotow_primer.php
Aerotow Primer for Experienced Pilots

The Wallaby Ranch Aerotowing Primer for Experienced Pilots - 2019/08/23

Welcome to Wallaby Ranch, the first and largest Aerotow Hang Gliding Flight Park in the World! We're the aerotowing (or "AT") professionals; no-one knows AT like we do; it's all we do, and we do it everyday, year-round.

He runs the Wallaby Ranch, the first and largest Aerotow Hang Gliding Flight Park in the World! He's the head of the aerotowing (or "AT") professionals; no-one knows AT like he does; it's all he does, and he does it everyday, year-round. Who else would've realized the need to have pilots start and stay pushed out on the launch carts to prevent them from flying into the ground and killing themselves at the rates they have been the past three decades?

- If Jim's so goddam knowledgeable on AT then how come he could never be bothered to post so much as a single punctuation mark's worth of commentary on the Zack Marzec inconvenience fatality or anything anywhere else in the recorded history of the sport?

He's seen plenty of bad examples in the mirror.

The one on the Dragonfly or the one over the bathroom sink?

A hg pilot can also get very aggressive if necessary by getting his feet way outside the control frame while also having his upper body shifted that same direction.

- Also:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Brad Gryder - 2013/02/21 23:25:31 UTC

There's also a way to swing your body way outside the control frame so it stays up there while you reach out with one hand and release. Come on - do some pushups this winter. See if you can advance up to some one-arm pushups.

- So why do you think Davis needed to wait for his wingtip to bounce off the runway before he could start getting himself aimed back in the general direction of he tug?

We sometimes thermal tandem gliders solo this way.

I can hardly wait to see the videos of all the tandem rides staying pushed out for launch.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=60556
My launch on Tuesday

Tormod Helgesen - 2019/08/21 05:07:17 UTC

If I remember correctly, there's only been fatal launch accidents in CAT 1 international aerotow competitions the last 20 years.

- There's no such thing as a launch accident. Take a close look at the two videos in this discussion if you believe otherwise. Also the 2005/01/09 Robin Strid.

- Yeah, if 95 percent of your comp launches are AT it's a good bet that that's where you're gonna be seeing a good chunk of your incidents.

- You don't get AT crashes 'cause AT is inherently dangerous. You get AT crashes solely due to incompetence and negligence. Cite ONE example that indicates otherwise.

Might be a coincidence.

Yep...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Davis Straub - 2011/08/28 15:26:28 UTC

Then again, Russell Brown had us double up behind him after six breaks in a row at Zapata. We couldn't figure out why we had so many breaks so quickly. Maybe just coincidence.

Works for me.

I have no other statistics for aerotow/foot launch safety records.

Yeah, The Industry works its ass off to conceal what's actually going on at all the runways and LZs.

John Armstrong - 2019/08/21 12:19:30 UTC

launching

Davis, that launch at Montecucco sounds like the Telluride Gold Hill launch. Except, Gold Hill is probably a lot higher; 12'200 ft.
Push Out, Mon...

From the word "Clear!" on until you got the glider safely mushed into the air. Gotta get serious with this crisis of people pulling in and flying into the ground.

Brad Gryder - 2019/08/21 12:52:27 UTC

Ahh yes .. Gold Hill, Bear Creek, Paradox . . . "I love the smell of a new launch in the morning" . . . or afternoon, or evening.

But back on topic,

Davis Straub - 2019/08/21 01:42:06 UTC

leave the rope in the middle of the control frame and move the hips from side to side.

There's more wisdom in JP's aerotowing advice than might be initially apparent.

Hard to imagine that there wouldn't be. And it's so absolutely frustrating that none of the individuals who hold these virtual monopolies on AT wisdom ever step in on any of the forums or even post anything on personal blogs to make this wisdom publicly available. They just share it with close personal friends and maybe five or ten years down the road a few of them will post a fragment or two after somebody's eaten it on some runway somewhere. It would be like if you developed a rabies vaccine but only made it available to the occasional buddy in town you noticed was starting to froth at the mouth. Very strange.

Maybe if we made a practice of shooting a few of the motherfuckers who sat on their wisdom while little kids were getting needlessly splattered out on desert lakebeds it would start getting the ball rolling some.

And we really gotta hand it to Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney who never held back on anything...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22660
What can be learned from this "scooter" towing accident?

Mitch Shipley - 2011/01/31 15:22:59 UTC

Enjoy your posts, as always, and find your comments solid, based on hundreds of hours / tows of experience and backed up by a keen intellect/knowledge of the issues when it comes to most things in general and hang gliding AT/Towing in particular. Wanted to go on record in case anyone reading wanted to know one persons comments they should give weight to.

08-19
http://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5277/30076449505_1f6ed2f804_o.png


What a pity that no one of anything in his ballpark stepped up to help fill some of the void he left.

There's a slight yawing force via the towline if the pilot's chest is not centered in the control frame.

A slight yawing force via the towline if the pilot's chest is not centered in the control frame is gonna be fuckin' OVERWHELMED by the swept wing's yaw stability. Or would you like to show us some videos of gliders yawing away from the tug?

If, while attempting to correct a roll, the pilot's chest is on the high side of the control bar, the towline force will tend to yaw the glider away from the desired path, making the turn worse.

And it's been scientifically proven beyond any shadow of a doubt that this yaw effect will overwhelm any advantage one might enjoy by virtue of getting more of one's body farther out under the high wing. This is why we see so many gliders continuing to lock out with the pilots full over.

This is especially true if the high side of the control bar is free from the dolly, while the low side of the control bar is still held down into the dolly's cradle and/or trapped therein.

So, people of varying ages, adjust your control inputs accordingly very carefully whenever you've got a high side out of the and you're still gripping the low hold down or the low side is locked into its dugout. And don't even think about blowing your easily reachable release 'cause it's only easily reachable when your Pilot In Command has throttled back for wave-off.

No, wait. You have an Infallible Weak Link which will break before you can get into too much trouble. So this discussion is actually totally moot.

http://c1.staticflickr.com/1/791/41148936032_e4097df8cd_o.jpg


Hmmm... The glider doesn't seem to be yawing to starboard as much as one might hope it would in this particular situation. And the Infallible Weak Link doesn't seem to be working very infallibly. Go figure.

(Thanks Brian, I wouldn't have thought of that one otherwise.)

From the two Big Spring video's presented for discussion...

From the two Big Spring video's WHAT presented for discussion?

...I suspect this "towline force induced yaw" TFIY was a partial contributor.

So we probably shouldn't be launching like that. OK then. Always a student.

Jim Gaar - 2019/08/21 14:25:02 UTC

And now add to that equation how the forces react when using different tow bridles!

You mean three point versus pro toad? Don't you think that if a three pointer offered the slightest control/safety advantage then Davis would permit their use at his pecker measuring contests?

Davis Straub - 2019/08/21 15:01:51 UTC

Brad Gryder - 2019/08/21 12:52:27 UTC

If, while attempting to correct a roll, the pilot's chest is on the high side of the control bar, the towline force will tend to yaw the glider away from the desired path, making the turn worse.

Exactly. Not what you would experience when not on tow.

Will this flood of valuable AT knowledge we're constantly gaining ever cease?

Davis Straub - 2019/08/21 15:02:38 UTC

I have launched from Gold Hill. It's not at all what you would experience at Montecucco.

I'll give them both tries so's I too will be able to contribute my valuable two cents.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=60556
My launch on Tuesday

Mick Howard - 2019/08/21 16:24:23 UTC

I used to fly a lot with Cowboy Up Hang Gliding (CUHG). I understand that Bart and Tiki (CUHG) acquired their teaching styles and methods from the years they spent at Wallaby. They prefer to set a higher angle of attack than I typically use. I think what they do works well for students on novice and intermediate gliders, which have a lot of washout compared to higher performance gliders. They set the angle of attack such that the wing tips are parallel to the ground. On a Falcon this places the root and keel of the wing at a very high angle of attack - probably around 30 degrees or more.

From discussions with Bart I believe the reasoning for this is to allow the glider to leave the cart as soon as possible to avoid excessive ground speed. Bart said that if the cart was to hit a hole or for some other reason come to an abrupt stop the glider would nose over and cause serious injury but injury would be much worse at higher ground speeds. Setting a high angle of attack and having the pilot hold that position during the take-off roll was the simplest way to teach students to launch, as this technique requires minimal student input until the glider leaves the cart. I also believe the thought is that the high angle of attack in the cart mimics the angle of attack of the tandem glider used for training, so the transition from tandem to solo glider was minimized. There could be other reasons that I don't know about but this technique has worked extremely well and proven successful for Wallaby and Cowboy Up, so there's no reason to change as long as this technique is applied in a controlled environment. In other words I believe that this technique mainly works in the appropriate conditions such as zero or negligible cross wind, very low gust factor, minimal turbulence and grass surfaces, which is the environment typically used for training and for less experienced pilots.

There's a difference between towing from grass surface versus a concrete surface in midday summer conditions. Concrete is typically a source for thermals whereas green grass isn't, so thermals are more likely to kick off when launching from concrete, plus the turbulent wind blast (prop blast) from the tug propagates and is far more pronounced on concrete whereas on grass it seems to have less effect on the glider possibly due to being absorbed and dissipated by the grass, I don't the physics but I do feel the difference - this was also clearly evident in Big Spring.

The weather conditions for cross country and competitions are far more variable and active compared to conditions during training and local recreational flying. During launch pilots may have to deal with stronger winds, wind gusts, crosswinds, thermals and prop blast. Holding a high angle of attack on the cart at the start of and during the takeoff roll in a cross wind will likely cause the upwind wing to lift while the downwind wing is stalled. The consequences are obvious unless brought under control - many of us have seen it happen. Setting a high angle of attack in gusty conditions can cause both wings to lift prematurely. Add thermals to the mix and getting lifted prematurely by the wind gust and or thermal or both and then getting slammed back down due to prop blast or because the gust dropped etc. is a recipe for disaster.

Setting an appropriate angle of attack will reduce the effect of the above mentioned conditions. For example the appropriate angle of attack will reduce the effect of the crosswind component by ensuring both wings reach flying speed before leaving the cart so typically the wing will yaw to the upwind side rather than lift the wing. Maintaining the appropriate angle of attack during the take-off roll prevents both wings lifting prematurely, so the glider and cart remain on the ground while passing through the prop blast and leave the cart at safe flying speed.

Maintaining the appropriate angle of attack during the take-off roll prevents the wings lifting prematurely which I believe is a common cause of accidents where the base bar touches the ground when it sinks in front of the cart i.e. the wing is lifted prematurely and then settles back down in front of the cart. Carrying the appropriate speed prior to leaving the cart mitigates this risk.

Setting the appropriate angle of attack reduces the likelihood of popping up above the tow plane on take-off This is the other extreme often seen when pilots hold their weight back (pushed out) as they leave the cart. This is a concern to tow pilots who have to maintain control close to the ground while the tail is being picked up and is a concern when pilots pop up high and break the weak link, then stall and crash because of the high angle of attack and immediate loss of airspeed.

Carrying the appropriate speed leaving the cart makes dealing with a premature release at the tug or glider a routine landing.

So what is the appropriate angle of attack on the cart? In the absence of information from USHPA I refer BHPA (British Hang Gliding & Paragliding Association).BHPA Technical Manual (Section-2 Chapter 7) says "The glider should sit at a low +ve angle of attack (keel at approx 18° - high angles of attack produce problems with wind gusts)".

What does this mean in practice. Depending on the glider, but generally, when laying down in the harness with the glider on the cart, the base bar will be at around neck/chest level (best glide) when the angle of attack of attack is around 20 degrees (BHPA says approximately 18° - Approximately to me is 18° to 22°). This has always worked well for me and I have a fair number of tows under my belt in various conditions. In the event the cart isn't adjustable then the appropriate angle of attack should be established during the take-off roll by pulling in until about best glide position.

Whenever someone starts this discussion about angle of attack I ask if they would attempt a hill or mountain launch with their glider nose high e.g. running down the slope with 30 degree angle of attack? Of course the answer is no. I ask the same about foot launching on flat surfaces behind payout winches, stationary winches or tow planes (aerotrow), and of course the answer is no. So I wonder why we feel it's ok to have a high angle of attack when launching from a cart? My thought is that a high angle of attack creates too many risks for the type of glider and the areas and conditions in which I fly, but it seems to work in a controlled environment such as flight parks/schools.

I used to fly a lot with Cowboy Up Hang Gliding (CUHG).

Cool. So I guess you're totally onboard with:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Bart Weghorst - 2011/08/28 20:29:27 UTC

Now I don't give a shit about breaking strength anymore. I really don't care what the numbers are. I just want my weaklink to break every once in a while.

I understand that Bart and Tiki (CUHG) acquired their teaching styles and methods from the years they spent at Wallaby.

- So then also:

http://www.wallaby.com/aerotow_primer.php
Aerotow Primer for Experienced Pilots

The Wallaby Ranch Aerotowing Primer for Experienced Pilots - 2019/08/23

A weak link connects the V-pull to the release, providing a safe limit on the tow force. If you fail to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon), the weak link will break before you can get into too much trouble.

- Yeah, figures.

They prefer to set a higher angle of attack than I typically use.

Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

I think what they do works well for students on novice and intermediate gliders...

Just not so much with 582 Dragonfly propwash.

...which have a lot of washout compared to higher performance gliders. They set the angle of attack such that the wing tips are parallel to the ground. On a Falcon this places the root and keel of the wing at a very high angle of attack - probably around 30 degrees or more.

The set angle is only supposed to be relevant before the wing (not the wing and pilot) gets up to flying speed. The idea is that a high angle exposes a lot of undersurface and renders the glider more vulnerable to getting rolled and/or pitched up by gusts and turbulence. Then the wing's supposed to start flying and trim very quickly into the takeoff roll and the set angle then becomes totally irrelevant.

From discussions with Bart I believe the reasoning for this is to allow the glider to leave the cart as soon as possible to avoid excessive ground speed.

Bull fucking shit. This is absolutely totally clueless. And where the hell are Bart and Tiki commenting on this? Bart's got ONE post here - 2019/08/16 13:07:59 UTC. 29 words spread out over the course of three sentences. And this isn't worth five or ten minutes worth of his extremely precious time?

Bart said that if the cart was to hit a hole...

...the victim on the back end would likely be demolished the way Sheryl Zayas was with the total fucking douchebags at Florida Ridge on 2008/01/12.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=5089
The Good-The Bad-The Ugly....

So we need to have fucking douchebags who allow this kind of criminal negligence at their operations sued outta existence to send the proper message out to other criminally negligent total fucking douchebags.

...or for some other reason come to an abrupt stop...

Like maybe the known defective launch carts Davis and his asshole buddies were trying to use...


http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident2.jpg
http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident3.jpg


...at Finger Lakes on the afternoon of 2004/08/02.

...the glider would nose over and cause serious injury but injury would be much worse at higher ground speeds.

Yeah, brilliant idea. Let's set the glider's nose high 'cause we can afford to run into holes and use defective launch carts at lower speeds 'cause obviously the injuries would be less severe. And if we only take off straight into twelve mile per hour straight-in headwinds we can cut the minimum required groundspeed in half and only have a quarter of the impact energy. How many more times are ya gonna force me to say totally fucking moronic?

Setting a high angle of attack and having the pilot...

You don't have an actual pilot participating in lunatic bullshit like this. We know how to design safe, stable launch carts and check for holes on runways.

...hold that position during the take-off roll was the simplest way to teach students to launch...

And we all know that the simpler something is the better and safer it is. Just look at the easily reachable Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey pro toad bent pin barrel release ferchrisake. Bart...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21033
barrels release without any tension except weight of rope..

Bart Weghorst - 2011/02/25 19:06:26 UTC

But I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use two hands to get the pin out of the barrel.
No stress because I was high.

...can tell ya all about those.

...as this technique requires minimal student input until the glider leaves the cart.

And we certainly don't want our students having to engage in anything as demanding as pitch control. (Got any videos of them landing?)

I also believe the thought is that the high angle of attack in the cart mimics the angle of attack of the tandem glider used for training, so the transition from tandem to solo glider was minimized.

Sounds iffy to me. If the high angle of attack in the cart mimics the angle of attack of the tandem glider used for training they might not realize they're flying solo and fail to steer around trees, buildings, parked gliders.

There could be other reasons that I don't know about but...

...I'm sure many will soon become apparent after we get this new approach ramped up and standardized in the SOPs.

...this technique has worked extremely well and proven successful for Wallaby and Cowboy Up, so there's no reason to change as long as this technique is applied in a controlled environment.

- If it ain't broke...

- And the sky has always been such a marvelously controlled...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Paul Tjaden - 2013/02/07 23:47:58 UTC

When the lift/turbulence was encountered, the weak link on the tow line broke as the nose of the glider pitched up quickly to a very high angle of attack. Apparently, the glider stalled or possibly did a short tail slide and then stalled and then nosed down and tumbled. Eye witnesses said the glider tumbled twice and then struck the ground with the base tube low. Due to the extremely low altitude, there was no time for the pilot to deploy his reserve parachute.

Zach was conscious immediately after the accident but died in route to the hospital.

Beyond these facts anything else would be pure speculation. I have personally had numerous weak link breaks on tow, both low and high, after hitting turbulence and have never felt in danger of a tumble. I have witnessed countless others have weak link breaks with no serious problems. We train aero tow pilots how to handle this situation and I am certain that Zach had also encountered this situation many times before and knew how to react properly. Apparently, Zach simply hit strong low level turbulence, probably a dust devil that could not be seen due to the lack of dust in Florida, the nose went too high and he tumbled at a very low altitude.

Strong dust devils in Florida definitely do exist even though they are rare. My wife had a near miss when she encountered a severe dusty a couple years ago and I almost lost a brand new $18,000 ATOS VX when it was torn from its tie down and thrown upside down.

I wish I could shed more light on this accident but I am afraid this is all we know and probably will know. Zach was a great guy with an incredible outlook and zest for life. He will be sorely missed.

...environment.

In other words I believe that this technique mainly works in the appropriate conditions...

With, of course, an appropriate weak link with a finished length of 1.5 inches or less.

...such as zero or negligible cross wind, very low gust factor, minimal turbulence and grass surfaces, which is the environment typically used for training and for less experienced pilots.

Everything totally oozing with safety. Makes my mouth water just thinking about it.

There's a difference between towing from grass surface versus a concrete surface in midday summer conditions. Concrete is typically a source for thermals whereas green grass isn't, so thermals are more likely to kick off when launching from concrete, plus the turbulent wind blast (prop blast) from the tug propagates and is far more pronounced on concrete whereas on grass it seems to have less effect on the glider possibly due to being absorbed and dissipated by the grass, I don't the physics but I do feel the difference - this was also clearly evident in Big Spring.

Clearly. Just watch what was going on with Prequel Davis and Davis.

What a load o' crap. You wanna avoid thermal turbulence then fly in the mornings and evenings. You fly in thermal conditions you expect strong turbulence and adjust your flying accordingly. You avoid concrete 'cause it's hard and abrasive.

The weather conditions for cross country and competitions are far more variable and active compared to conditions during training...

Thank gawd.

...and local recreational flying.

I do my recreational flying in the strongest, most violent thermal conditions I can get my hands on. AT is primarily a flatlands launch option and I have zero interest in sled runs and hanging out on ridges. And I equip myself to be able to handle anything that can be thrown at me - save for some douchebag fixing whatever's going on back there or the focal point of his safe towing system doing the same thing.

During launch pilots may have to deal with stronger winds, wind gusts, crosswinds, thermals and prop blast.

Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"A bad flyer won't hurt a pin man but a bad pin man can kill a flyer." - Bill Bennett
"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson

Holding a high angle of attack on the cart at the start of and during the takeoff roll in a cross wind will likely cause the upwind wing to lift while the downwind wing is stalled.

Really? So maybe it's a BAD idea to hold a high angle of attack on the cart at the start of and during the takeoff roll in a crosswind?

The consequences are obvious unless brought under control - many of us have seen it happen. Setting a high angle of attack in gusty conditions can cause both wings to lift prematurely. Add thermals to the mix and getting lifted prematurely by the wind gust and or thermal or both and then getting slammed back down due to prop blast or because the gust dropped etc. is a recipe for disaster.

Yet a TOTALLY AWESOME recipe for training student pilots.

Setting an appropriate angle of attack will reduce the effect of the above mentioned conditions. For example the appropriate angle of attack will reduce the effect of the crosswind component by ensuring both wings reach flying speed before leaving the cart...

Unless you get hit by 582 Dragonfly propwash. We're still working on that issue.

...so typically the wing will yaw to the upwind side rather than lift the wing. Maintaining the appropriate angle of attack during the take-off roll prevents both wings lifting prematurely, so the glider and cart remain on the ground while passing through the prop blast and leave the cart at safe flying speed.

But that's off the table for students due to safety issues.

Maintaining the appropriate angle of attack during the take-off roll prevents the wings lifting prematurely which I believe is a common cause of accidents where the base bar touches the ground when it sinks in front of the cart i.e. the wing is lifted prematurely and then settles back down in front of the cart. Carrying the appropriate speed prior to leaving the cart mitigates this risk.

See above.

Setting the appropriate angle of attack reduces the likelihood of popping up above the tow plane on take-off This is the other extreme often seen when pilots hold their weight back (pushed out) as they leave the cart. This is a concern to tow pilots who have to maintain control close to the ground while the tail is being picked up and is a concern...

It's at total bullshit concern. Tugs don't get the least bit fazed by gliders way the hell above them - which never happens on launch anyway - and if they did they've got a lever on the joystick to instantly and seamlessly dispense with the annoyance.

...when pilots...

You mean passengers?

...pop up high and break the weak link...

This is the first and last acknowledgement of the focal point of our safe towing system in this entire now 83 post thread. (And no "line breaks".)

...then stall and crash because of the high angle of attack and immediate loss of airspeed.

- Oh bullshit. A weak link success always increases the safety of the towing operation and the high angle of attack / immediate loss of airspeed is an easily dealt with inconvenience. You hafta be a total douchebag to crash as a consequence of this safety device kicking in. (Davis? You gonna let this total crap slide without comment?)

- So what strength is this weak link nowadays, Mick? And how was that figure determined?

Carrying the appropriate speed leaving the cart makes dealing with a premature release at the tug or glider a routine landing.

At the cost of a high risk of coming off the cart and flying into the ground. Doesn't sound like a very good plan to me.

So what is the appropriate angle of attack on the cart?

Who the fuck cares? We fly these things by FEEL just fine.

In the absence of information from USHPA I refer BHPA (British Hang Gliding & Paragliding Association).BHPA Technical Manual (Section-2 Chapter 7) says "The glider should sit at a low +ve angle of attack (keel at approx 18° - high angles of attack produce problems with wind gusts)".

Fuck BHPA.

What does this mean in practice. Depending on the glider, but generally, when laying down in the harness with the glider on the cart, the base bar will be at around neck/chest level (best glide) when the angle of attack of attack is around 20 degrees (BHPA says approximately 18° - Approximately to me is 18° to 22°). This has always worked well for me and I have a fair number of tows under my belt in various conditions.

Do you adjust your pitch in accordance with conditions?

In the event the cart isn't adjustable then the appropriate angle of attack should be established during the take-off roll by pulling in until about best glide position.

Not pushing out? Aren't we risking a lethal nose-in?

Whenever someone starts this discussion about angle of attack I ask if they would attempt a hill or mountain launch with their glider nose high e.g. running down the slope with 30 degree angle of attack? Of course the answer is no. I ask the same about foot launching on flat surfaces behind payout winches, stationary winches or tow planes (aerotrow), and of course the answer is no. So I wonder why we feel it's ok to have a high angle of attack when launching from a cart?

Because we are Cowboy Up and AT operators can say and/or do no wrong.

My thought is that a high angle of attack creates too many risks for the type of glider and the areas and conditions in which I fly...

Actual real world stuff? Who'da thunk?

...but it seems to work in a controlled environment such as flight parks/schools.

It SEEMS to work in a controlled environment such as flight parks/schools. High praise. In other words this moronic bullshit is gonna kill somebody sooner or later - the way we saw things go down with Davis's stupid ass at the beginning of this thread - if we're moronic enough to keep it up.

[<BS>]

(Thanks Brian, I wouldn't have thought of that one otherwise.)

Thank you for the work spent harvesting them all.

Hmmm... The glider doesn't seem to be yawing to starboard as much as one might hope it would in this particular situation.

I think they'd expect a yaw to port on that one. It's my understanding that a yaw force can be applied using the towline. And while the glider is rolling, it also adverse yaws.
http://www.kitestrings.org/viewtopic.php?p=10882#p10882
Steve Seibel has some interesting videos demonstrating this stuff, but I can't seem to find his work anymore.

[Tad Eareckson]

Thank you for the work spent harvesting them all.

Thanks. Harvesting... I'm physically half sick and half blind now. But I'm glad to have captured and dealt with all this crap. Major historical moment in the disintegration of this vile sport and culture.

I think they'd expect a yaw to port on that one.

Yeah, thanks. Totally screwed that pooch. (The geometry was too extreme.)

It's my understanding that a yaw force can be applied using the towline.

Yeah, I remember that. It was on my mind as I wrote. But I was too overwhelmed and had too much of a headache to feel like going back and reviewing it.

Steve Seibel has some interesting videos demonstrating this stuff, but I can't seem to find his work anymore.

He's done some good work and it would be a pity if we've lost it. Early on I really wanted him on the team...
http://www.kitestrings.org/post33.html#p33
...but he'll never lift a finger, take a stand, put anything on the line to help get anything fixed. And, as he himself states, none of his work is of any value with respect to how we fly, maneuver these things. And he's thirty miles south of totally useless on releases and weak links.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=60556
My launch on Tuesday

Ben Reese - 2019/08/21 18:25:29 UTC

Very good and well written..

Sure Ben. He only took 1092 words to say that this new Cowboy Up protocol of AT dolly launching gliders with their noses way the fuck up was off-the-scale moronic lethal lunacy. Maybe you could take something away from this example and figure out how to make an occasional point in some of your posts.

However I so do wish he'd learn to break up his sentences with hard returns into stubby little segments to leave half the available screen space blank and force the reader to spend five or ten extra minutes scrolling down searching for an occasional snippet of some degree of substance. And I notice that he only uses one period at the ends of his sentences.. You guys should get together, help each other out... Could make a really amazing team.

Kinsley Sykes - 2019/08/23 17:25:20 UTC

The other thing going on at Big Spring was the effect of Density Altitude on the Tug Engines. This year the winds were generally lighter than usual and the temps were hotter (over 100F) many of the days.

Maybe a miniscule percentage of extra life giving plant food in the atmosphere. Get over it.

All the tugs were the non-turbo engine (someone can help me with Rotax nomenclature)...

582.

...so high DA had an effect.

Reduced tow tensions. Way less lockout potential and a lot easier on the weak links.

This meant that that it took a lot longer to get to airspeed. What was happening on many of the tows was the glider would hit the propwash from the tug...

Particularly the ones with their keels still on the support.

...which would temporarily boost airspeed and lift the glider off the dolly if the pilot was not holding on firmly and/or not pulled in enough.

Here's a thought... Pilots should hold onto the hold-downs firmly and pull in enough.

Once the initial wall of propwash went through...

Don't the Flytec gadgets record stuff like airspeed nowadays? Any chance we could see the spikes we should be getting from these alleged walls of propwash going through?

...the glider would then drop back down until the tug had fully accelerated. I can't think of a time where I've not been in the air before the tug, yet here that was a pretty regular occurrence last week.

Sounds like people need to set their noses higher and keep their keels pinned to the supports more firmly.

Think the point of all this is that the High DA/Lower wind at this year's Big Spring caused some unusual towing conditions that may not reflect sea level performance and practices.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=36488
weather changes

Mike Bomstad - 2019/06/26 14:47:51 UTC

This is the worst season since Ive been flying.
Very odd weather, unreliable forecasts. Unusual wind velocities and directions.
We broke the planet

Rule of thumb...

http://www.questairforce.com/aero.html
Aerotow FAQ

Quest Air Hang Gliding

Weak Link

The strength of the weak link is crucial to a safe tow. It should be weak enough so that it will break before the pressure of the towline reaches a level that compromises the handling of the glider but strong enough so that it doesn't break every time you fly into a bit of rough air. A good rule of thumb for the optimum strength is one G, or in other words, equal to the total wing load of the glider. Most flight parks use 130 lb. braided Dacron line, so that one loop (which is the equivalent to two strands) is about 260 lb. strong - about the average wing load of a single pilot on a typical glider. For tandems, either two loops (four strands) of the same line or one loop of a stronger line is usually used to compensate for nearly twice the wing loading. When attaching the weak link to the bridle, position the knot so that it's hidden from the main tension in the link and excluded altogether from the equation.

IMPORTANT - It should never be assumed that the weak link will break in a lockout.
ALWAYS RELEASE THE TOWLINE before there is a problem.

...for HP is that you lose 3.5% HP for every thousand feet of DA.

Density Altitude.

BS was around 5 - 6k feet depending on temperature each day.

Runway elevation is 2573 feet.

Any comments on the Standard Aerotow Weak Link...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=16265
weaklinks

Kinsley Sykes - 2010/03/18 19:42:19 UTC

In the old threads there was a lot of info from a guy named Tad. Tad had a very strong opinion on weak link strength and it was a lot higher than most folks care for. I'd focus carefully on what folks who tow a lot have to say. Or Jim Rooney who is an excellent tug pilot. I tow with the "park provided" weak links. I think they are 130 pound Greenspot.

...and/or Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney, Kinsley?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=60556
My launch on Tuesday

Mick Howard - 2019/08/21 16:24:23 UTC

Setting the appropriate angle of attack reduces the likelihood of popping up above the tow plane on take-off. This is the other extreme often seen when pilots hold their weight back (pushed out) as they leave the cart. This is a concern to tow pilots who have to maintain control close to the ground while the tail is being picked up and is a concern when pilots pop up high and break the weak link, then stall and crash because of the high angle of attack and immediate loss of airspeed.

And here's the textbook - possibly ONLY - example:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=18777
Accident - Broken Jaw - Full Face HG Helmet

Keith Skiles - 2010/08/28 05:20:01 UTC

Last year, at LMFP I saw an incident in aerotow that resulted in a very significant impact with the ground on the chest and face. Resulted in a jaw broken in several places and IIRC some tears in the shoulder.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TTTFlymail/message/11545
Cart stuck incidents

Keith Skiles - 2011/06/02 19:50:13 UTC

I witnessed the one at Lookout. It was pretty ugly. Low angle of attack, too much speed and flew off the cart like a rocket until the weak link broke, she stalled and it turned back towards the ground.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/09/02 19:41:27 UTC

Yes, go read that incident report.
Please note that the weaklink *saved* her ass. She still piled into the earth despite the weaklink helping her... for the same reason it had to help... lack of towing ability. She sat on the cart, like so many people insist on doing, and took to the air at Mach 5.
That never goes well.
Yet people insist on doing it.

Davis Straub - 2011/09/03 01:39:55 UTC

I think that I know the one that is being referred to.

The problem was an inexperienced female student put on a cart that had the keel cradle way too high, so she was pinned to the cart. The folks working at Lookout who helped her were incompetent.

And it's total fucking rubbish that that situation endangers the tug.

- Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney forgot to say anything about how endangered the tug would've been if the she'd been using a Tad-O-Link.

- The tugs are supposed to be able to fix whatever's going on back there by giving the glider the rope. And they all launch with...

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7509/15659143120_a9aae8f7bd_o.jpg


...their fingers on the triggers and we know they can and will whenever they actually need to - even a Keavy Nenninger who immediately dumped the tandem from her fatally compromised 914 Dragonfly before climbing out to two hundred feet and making her rookie mistakes under duress and extremely low. And it now occurs to me that Rooney was actually revealing the piece o' shit tug driver / Pilot In Command - who's never bothered to identify him or her self let alone provide anything in the way of a report on how his passenger got half killed and permanently battered out of the sport - as negligent and/or incompetent in not fixing whatever was going on back there long before the focal point of their safe towing system stepped up and did the job.

- There is NOBODY on the back end who wouldn't be stuffing the bar in that situation. And if there IS somebody on the back end who wouldn't be stuffing the bar in that situation...

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 09:25:57 UTC

"light" weaklink issues?
"I had to land"... boo hoo.
Oh, I thought of an other one... I smashed into the earth after my weaklink let go cuz I fly as badly as I tow, and I'm only still here cuz my weaklink didn't let me pile in harder.

Your anecdotal opinion is supposed to sway me?
You forget, every tow flight you take requires a tug pilot... we see EVERY tow.
We know who the rockstars are and who the muppets are.

...then whose responsibility is that? The Pilot In Command isn't responsible for ensuring that his passengers are capable and responsible enough to stay seatbelted in place during takeoff and through climb to safe altitude? The passenger gets carted away with her jaw broken to pieces and a torn up shoulder and she's the only one responsible for anything? Not sure the courts would see it that way. And pretty sure Matt Taber and Tim Herr know they wouldn't - hence the conspicuous absence of any actual report on this one.

But anyway...

...and is a concern when pilots pop up high and break the weak link, then stall and crash because of the high angle of attack and immediate loss of airspeed.

That's historic. That's pretty much the first time a mainstreamer has prevailed with the argument that Donnell Hewett heard close to four decades ago that "Weak links always break at the worst possible time, when the glider is climbing hard in a near stall situation," and that "More people have been injured because of a weak link than saved by one."

And...

The United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association, Inc. - 2016/10/22
Standard Operating Procedure
12. Rating System
02. Pilot Proficiency System
11. Hang Gliding Special Skill Endorsements
-A. Special Skills attainable by Novice
05. Aerotow

-f. The candidate must also demonstrate the ability to properly react to a weak link/tow rope break simulation with a tandem rated pilot, initiated by the tandem pilot at altitude, but at a lower than normal release altitude. Such demonstrations should be made in smooth air.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Paul Tjaden - 2013/02/07 23:47:58 UTC

When the lift/turbulence was encountered, the weak link on the tow line broke as the nose of the glider pitched up quickly to a very high angle of attack. Apparently, the glider stalled or possibly did a short tail slide and then stalled and then nosed down and tumbled. Eye witnesses said the glider tumbled twice and then struck the ground with the base tube low. Due to the extremely low altitude, there was no time for the pilot to deploy his reserve parachute.

Zach was conscious immediately after the accident but died in route to the hospital.

Beyond these facts anything else would be pure speculation. I have personally had numerous weak link breaks on tow, both low and high, after hitting turbulence and have never felt in danger of a tumble. I have witnessed countless others have weak link breaks with no serious problems. We train aero tow pilots how to handle this situation and I am certain that Zach had also encountered this situation many times before and knew how to react properly.

...that the "TRAINING" we get to be able to safely respond to a weak link inconvenience:
- try to have them only:
-- at two thousand feet or better
-- in glassy smooth conditions
-- with the glider in optimal position behind the tug
- stuff the bar and hope:
-- the stall isn't severe enough to put you into a tumble (the way it can and does in strong thermal conditions in free flight)
-- the ground doesn't come up and hit you before you start flying again
will be totally fucking useless in all serious low level incidents. When you're on a stalled glider you're pretty much a passenger for a while - what Rooney defines you as even if you were to be in safe position on tow with safe and legal tow releases, bridles, and weak link configurations. (I wonder what that feels like.)

I've thought this thread was dead twice before - after 2019/08/17 11:53:06 UTC and 2019/08/21 18:25:29 UTC when there were extended lulls. It's been three days now. It's dead. And not a peep about these two serious lunatic incidents at Jack, Bob, Peter, Capitol, Greblo anywhere else save for here. If you pop up or get popped up on an AT launch and the focal point of a safe towing system increases the safety of the towing operation or your Pilot In Command makes a good decision in the interest of your safety you WILL STALL and you WILL CRASH. Period. That's a major historic milestone. Brings us back to the relative sanity / common sense we haven't seen since the dawn of the Eighties.

This got me thinking and I've been working on a timeline - a history of the biggest and most deadly, destructive, insidious, evil scam in the history of aviation. I'll be posting it shortly as a wiki sorta archive.

[Tad Eareckson]

Oh joy. Four more posts on the extra moronic Davis Show thread. (Just when you thought it was safe...)

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=60556
My launch on Tuesday

Avolare - 2019/08/26 22:11:59 UTC

Davis Straub - 2019/08/21 01:42:06 UTC

Tug pilot Jim Prahl cautioned us to leave the rope in the middle of the control frame and move the hips from side to side.

Just my $.02. But please have Jim do the "Jim spiel" at the first pilot meeting. Very beneficial and I've heard it a few times. It really helps to re-plant the seed. FWIW, I already told Jim this.

- And here I was thinking that an AT rating was supposed to mean something.
- The same Jim Prahl who's said NOTHING about everyone and his dog trying to launch with his keel planted on the tail support?

P.S. Doing any better at keeping the glider level while staying behind the truck...

18-3003


...in crosswinds?

Davis Straub - 2019/08/27 00:28:38 UTC

Thanks.

Suck my dick.

The effect of prop wash was more evident than I have ever seen it before. Pilots would actually hold onto the cart and pull the cart up with them. I did this numerous times. Then the cart would settle back down.

Wow. At a density altitude of five to six thousand feet. Pretty wicked propwash for a 582 to be kicking out.

Pulling in didn't seem to affect it.

Why would anyone not have ALREADY pulled in?

You still got hit by the prop wash and your glider would be jiggled.

Right outta the cart and then dropped on a wingtip. Never seen anything like it before.

Pulling in is always a good idea and it keeps you more in command...

Cool. When the guy 250 feet in front of you is the Pilot In Command the passenger on the glider needs to keep himself in command to the maximum extent possible.

...but it doesn't stop the prop wash from hitting you and affecting the glider.

Nope. And it sure is a good thing we have all you fucking geniuses and rockstars working on this new problem that nobody's ever seen anywhere before or since.

Jim Gaar - 2019/08/27 11:31:43 UTC

Why not consider a longer tow line under those conditions?

582 propwash conditions with the nose pointed up in two of the two videos that have been posted? Why not consider a shorter runway? Or just start from the middle of the one we have. Use the same sorta game plan we do for our landings.

Davis Straub - 2019/08/27 14:42:45 UTC

We have been discussing this.

How absolutely thrilled I'd be to have the privilege of listening in and trying to get a grasp on the thinking of just about all the greatest minds this sport has ever seen.

My two cents...

Shorter towline you're more lockout prone and present more control issues for the tug. Longer towline you're less in the same air the tug is. I'm pretty sure that 250 feet is pretty optimal and nobody goes under 200 - 'specially not to deal with fake propwash issues. But do go ahead and see if you can make this this sport any more clueless than it is now.