landing

[Tad Eareckson]

Yeah, that would sorta make sense.

I'll buy that for the time being and apologize for being obtuse and offended and for any and all hostile comments stemming from said confusion.

However...
- I thought I was sufficiently nasty to Davis when I first heard of his situation...
http://www.kitestrings.org/post1174.html#p1174
...to be immune from accusations of being namby-pamby with him.
- This:

miguel - 2012/04/19 16:44:30 UTC

The point is that you have fire and brimstone for anyone who disagrees with any of your edicts. You are namby pamby with Davis.

...MAKES NO SENSE.

Davis WASN'T disagreeing with any of my "edicts" on this issue. I think we're pretty much totally lined up on this one. He's been saying the right things about wheels for years, knows that coming in for a foot landing on the airstrip was stupid, knows how high a price he paid for it, and is beefing up the message on his show.

The guy's a miserable piece of shit and an overall blight on the sport and species but that doesn't mean he can't be dead right on a lot of issues.

And if you want high level expertise on weather forecasting, XC flying, and competition task calling - don't talk to me. Davis would be a hundred times better than Yours Truly.

But don't stick around long after you get what you need and take a good hot shower as soon as possible afterwards.

If you want me to be nasty with him to balance out any perceived namby-pambiness...

He's not doing shit to eliminate or de-emphasize standup landings from USHGA policy and the kind of "training" programs to which Ashley's being subjected. And a lot of aspiring and up and coming hang glider pilots are gonna abruptly end their progress in the sport with trips to emergency rooms as a consequence of that kind of apathy and callousness.

[miguel]

Sorry it does not make sense.
I figured you would have have something more to say about barefoot foot landings especially at an airport when the glider had wheels.
No apologies needed. Water under the bridge.

[Tad Eareckson]

Sorry it does not make sense.

1. It makes sense NOW.
2. And it made enough sense that Zack understood what you were saying so it was NOT indecipherable.
3. But I didn't understand what you were saying and locked into an assumption about what I THOUGHT you were saying.
4. And locking into assumptions is one of the biggest killers in this sport and we're ALL vulnerable to doing it.
5. For example... I locked into an assumption that the people running towing had a fucking clue what they were talking about, and as a partial consequence, got into a real dangerous situation on my very first flight at Ridgely on their very first day of operation.

I figured you would have have something more to say about barefoot foot landings especially at an airport when the glider had wheels.

Oh.

Not really.
- Contrary to popular belief, I'm not rabidly opposed to ALL foot landings in ALL circumstances.
-- There are lotsa circumstances when the risk associated with a foot landing is about the same as it is for checking your e-mail.
-- There are lotsa circumstances when a foot landing is so brain dead easy it would be completely stupid to come down any other way.
- While I'll happily take any shot at Davis I can get I don't have any problem with what he's doing on those two landings.
-- Although he has no chance in hell of ever becoming a pilot (as you can easily confirm just by looking at what he's got coming off his shoulders) he's a highly skilled and experienced flyer and in excellent control of those two landings - but no better or worse than a (similarly handicapped) solid Hang One could do.
-- He's on a light (and probably lightly loaded) glider commonly used as a first day trainer.
-- The air's pretty dead so there aren't gonna be any surprises.
-- He has good wheels to which he can bail if he needs to.
- Barefoot...
-- Foot landing a glider - as far as the feet are concerned - involves at most running a very short bit with your effective weight starting at zilch and increasing to normal plus sixty to a hundred pounds. That's about as big a fucking deal as walking a few steps barefoot with a kid on your shoulders.
-- We humans:
--- play soccer and run marathons barefoot.
--- run down Greater Kudu in the Kalahari barefoot.

Note that Davis catches a bit of flak for landing a Falcon barefoot in the grass at an airport without consequence but when Jonathan, loaded for XC and wearing shoes, lands a T2 in a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place and...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JgbHEye4Zk
A One-Footed Landing
NMERider - 2010/08/29
dead
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2924/14342843767_1a8c66e57f_o.png

16-1501

...breaks a toe, nobody in this idiot testosterone poisoned culture thinks THAT's the tiniest bit stupid. 'Cause hang gliders just wouldn't be hang gliders if you didn't land them in narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place as often as possible - they'd be namby-pamby sailplanes.

And, of course, immediately after you've broken the toe and are landing on putting greens you CONTINUE doing foot landings - the one foot flavor - to keep your narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place landings as keenly honed as they were before and are roundly applauded for doing so.

No apologies needed.

Apologies - or at least acknowledgments of which way is actually up - are ALWAYS needed if we are to make any progress in reaching consensuses about which way is up.

For example...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/07/22 22:30:28 UTC

Hahahahahahahahaha
Oh that's just rich!
Riiiiiight... it's my attention span at issue here....
and I'm the one that's arrogant!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA

No, I'm not being nice. No, I do not feel the need to be nice. You're trying to convince people to be less safe. I don't want to be on the other end of the rope when someone listening to this drivel smashes in.

I've heard it a million times before from comp pilots insisting on towing with even doubled up weaklinks (some want no weaklink). I tell them the same thing I'm telling you... suck it up. You're not the only one on the line. I didn't ask to be a test pilot. I can live with your inconvenience.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 14:04:52

We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question

Tad Eareckson - 2008/11/24 06:16:08 UTC

Would someone - Brian, Janni, Lauren, ANYONE - PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE explain to me how the tug's ass is endangered by a double loop ONLY when it's on a SOLO glider but not at all when it's on a TANDEM?

You will NEVER get a straight answer to that question from any of the total fucking morons of the Sacred Order of Dragonfly Drivers - from Bobby to Rooney - 'cause none of those cowardly shits has ever been wrong about ANYTHING.

Nobody's ever wrong about anything in this sport so everything's just a matter of opinion - permanently. And the opinions which are best at winning the popularity contests are virtually always the most clueless ones.

Which reminds me...

Still haven't gotten an answer to my question.

[Tad Eareckson]

miguel...

miguel - 2012/04/19 15:10:27 UTC

Davis lands on his feet when he could have easily rolled in on the wheels.
What does Tad say?

The point is that you have fire and brimstone for anyone who disagrees with any of your edicts. You are namby pamby with Davis.

- I'm supposed to know that when you say:

Davis lands on his feet when he could have easily rolled in on the wheels.

you're referring to the easy, completely uneventful landings in the latest video and NOT the blown 2011/09/22 landing which crippled him?

- And I'm supposed to unload fire and brimstone on anyone who ever foot lands under any circumstances because one of my edicts is that no one should ever foot land under any circumstances?

- And if I don't unload fire and brimstone on Davis when he makes a couple of easy, completely uneventful foot landings in smooth air at a flight park the only possible explanations are that my account has been hijacked or I'm not treating Davis with the harshness with which I attack everyone else who ever foot lands uneventfully in smooth air at flight parks because I admire and/or wish to curry favor with him?

I do my best to read and understand what everyone is saying and where he's coming from but it often seems like you don't make much of an effort.

And, upon further reflection, I don't think *I* was the one being obtuse on this one.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=918
US Hawks; The Hang Gliding Assn.

Warren Narron - 2012/04/20 19:27:24 UTC

Speaking of physics, and to bring this back to the narrow focus of hang gliding, Tad Eareckson, posted this quote at kitestrings:

Bob Kuczewski - 2012/01/17 19:31:28 UTC

I have to agree with miguel here. I believe pitch authority is greater on the base tube, but roll authority is much quicker and more authoritative when upright. No doubt about it.

http://www.kitestrings.org/topic10-190.html

So, is the thinking still the same now, Bob? Is roll authority really better from the uprights? How so?

Thanks for taking the time in reading this.

Warren

PS: Please send the link to the website for liberty and self reliance that you helped create. Things like that should bring people together rather than being divisive.

miguel - 2012/04/20 19:42:05 UTC

Try this: go upright, grab the downtube about two thirds of the way down. Pull your body over as far as possible and kick your legs out beyond the downtube plane.

It doesn't matter where your fuckin' legs are. All that matters is where your fuckin' center of gravity is. And your fuckin' center of gravity is always gonna be halfway between the points at which your harness mains join the body at your hips.

And NOBODY'S roll control authority is being limited because of "the downtube plane" - especially on landing approach which is the ONLY PLACE you EVER see people going upright to the downtubes.

Not only can you do this quicker than when prone, you can get your effective weight further away from the midline than if prone.

Try it sometime.

Why? You haven't said a single word about the turning response of the glider.

And NOBODY does this kinda absurd bullshit at altitude for better roll control. The ONLY thing people use it for is to try to rationalize the idiot upright landing approach that none of the most competent and successful pilots use.

Warren Narron - 2012/04/20 20:57:03 UTC

I believe I have used such a technique a long time ago..
It was newish Hang 3, first tow/flight landing a new Axis 15 and caught a little rotor off a levee, trying to land close for a re-tow.
I was upright on final and I had to radically hug the downtube because I was not getting the roll response I needed.
Seemed to me at the time as a good reason to stay on the basetube longer (and not getting behind the levee) instead of needing such a spastic emergency response.
I also remember another spastic leg kick to the outside of a low turn to final in order to complete/level the turn.
It worked but it was not pretty. Had gone to the downtubes early because worries of a new pod harness...
It was a set up for landing downhill at Henson to be close to the ride back up the ridge. Convenience seems a common theme/problem here..
I can't remember why we weren't landing in the bowl on a north day.

Wanna get a glider down safely... Stay on the downtubes (2012/04/24 - Edit. Make that "basetube". (Thanks Steve)) all the way or - if you want/need to stop it on your feet - until the last couple of seconds.

Feeling lucky and/or aren't worried about control, accuracy, safety margins, downtubes, arms, shoulders, necks... Go upright early.

Zack C - 2012/04/21 00:20:19 UTC

Tad Eareckson - 2011/03/12 15:37:15 UTC

...without going to the trouble of reviewing or thinking I'd say that you probably DO have more roll authority up on the downtubes - FOR ANY GIVEN AIRSPEED. But you don't see people at aerobatic competitions going vertical and grabbing high to roll hard - you see them staying prone and stuffing the bar to make the glider REALLY responsive.

http://www.kitestrings.org/post172.html#p172

Bob Kuczewski - 2012/04/23 17:20:16 UTC

With regard to roll authority, I think...

Oh goodie. An OPINION from Bob - based on his "THINKING".

...it's much harder to shift your lateral center of mass quickly in the prone position than in the upright position. When you're upright, your arms are able to directly shift your center of mass by pulling. But in the prone position, the center of mass must be moved by differential pressure of the arms where the center of mass (hips) has the greater mechanical advantage because it's located so far from the center of torque (midpoint between hands on the base tube).

BY JOVE - YOU'RE RIGHT!!! This will absolutely revolutionize thermal flying as soon as everybody starts catching on! XC flight records will start toppling like unrepentant child molesters at hang gliding forums which value the free speech rights of their members!

Actually, that last sentence really clarified it for me. Imagine a crescent wrench trying to turn a bolt. There are four elements there ... the bolt to be turned, the jaws gripping the bolt, the force applied to the wrench, and the distance between that force and the bolt (sorry, but I don't have time to draw a diagram right now).

That's OK, Bob. Anybody with half an ounce or more of common sense wrote this off as total lunacy before he started getting a headache reading through it.

Now imagine that the crescent wrench is trying to push your hand by twisting against the bolt. That's what's happening when you try to use your arms (jaws of the wrench) against the base tube (bolt) to twist your center of mass (hand applied to the wrench). You can see that your hand on the crescent wrench has a tremendous mechanical advantage over the jaws at the bolt. So the jaws at the bolt would have to work very hard to be able to overcome the force on your hand. That's why it's much harder to shift your center of mass (hips) using your arms against the base tube when prone.

And just think how much better roll response during HGMA certification test flying we could get if people just understood this!

Meanwhile, back in the REAL world...

Somebody find me a video of somebody - at ANY altitude, from eighteen grand down to three inches - who had inadequate roll authority because he was prone and would've benefited from being upright with his hands on the downtubes.

And after you do that find me a video of someone in conditions in which his safety would've been compromised by having tight suspension within two seconds of launch.

[miguel]

I will give you credit. No name calling. I knew you could

Sorry Tad, but your theoretical rantings do not agree with my reality. I flew for about 2 years suprone, above the control bar, my hands about 2/3 up on the down tube. You are not going to convince me of something I have experienced differently and something I already know.

You preach what you want; I will fly the way I want.

No more response from me on this issue

[Tad Eareckson]

No name calling.

I tend not to call someone names when he's engaging me in a somewhat rational discussion.

Sorry Tad, but your theoretical rantings do not agree with my reality.

Sound scientific theory - which, in this case, is based upon indisputable principles of Newtonian physics and geometry - will ALWAYS agree with reality (regardless of ownership).

I flew for about 2 years suprone, above the control bar , my hands about 2/3 up on the down tube.

1. But neither you, Ashley, nor anybody else nowadays whom I know about is now flying suprone.
2. Not that it was a bad idea.
3. And geometry and relationship with the glider couldn't be much more different from the upright landing approaches we're discussing.

You preach what you want; I will fly the way I want.

I'm not ordering you to alter the way you fly. I'm asking you to think about what approach to training will be in Ashley's best interests.

No more response from me on this issue

miguel - 2012/01/20 01:40:10 UTC

This is the last I have to say on this subject.

[Steve Davy]

Wanna get a glider down safely... Stay on the downtubes all the way or - if you want/need to stop it on your feet - until the last couple of seconds.

This is confusing. Did you mean to write that or am I reading it wrong?

[Tad Eareckson]

I didn't mean to write that. Substitute "basetube" for "downtubes".
Your subscription fee for the month of May will be waived.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16983
Landing a Moyes Xtralite 164

Haig Thompson - 2009/08/16 08:43:07 UTC

I've just bought an old Xtralite 164 and had three flights and just over six hours airtime on it.

Although it's old, it's in excellent condition and I'm enjoying flying it. My problem with it is in the landing. Of the three landings, so far, I've nosed in twice in light conditions. No damage or injury just hurt pride.

One out of three isn't good and I've decided my mistake is coming out of prone too early and not maintaining my airspeed to flare at the right time.

Talking to a club coach about it he said he'd heard that the Xtralite had a reputation for being difficult to land.

1. Can someone confirm this; is the Xtralite difficult to land?
2. What is the best way to land it in nil, light, strong wind or thermic conditions?

I'm a BHPA club pilot with a clip-in weight of 120 kg.

Thanks.

So you've nosed in two out of three times without damage or injury.
So apparently you weren't landing in an environment in which your life was dependent upon putting it down and stopping it on your feet.

Jaco Herbst - 2009/08/16 13:42:28 UTC

"Flare at the right time"? We are talking timing here. Like a golf swing. I seriously have my doubt if one can teach someone to flare at the right time. You can can guide someone but it comes down to having a feel for it. Experience the answer.

Yeah. Except after we complete the swing we stop being the golfer and instantly become the ball. And every once in a while the ball - sometimes because the swing left something to be desired, sometimes because the wind did something of an uncooperative nature, sometimes because a combination of the two - doesn't always come down exactly where and how we want it to.
- Our immediate goal is to get the ball on the putting green and not lose it in the woods.
- So we're gonna hafta walk to the putting green ANYWAY.
- So wouldn't it make a lot more sense just to hold the ball in a hand, walk to the putting green, and give it a gentle roll?
- Or is the entire goal of hang gliding to PERFECT our golf swing and not worry too much about the balls that end up in the woods 'cause we can usually find them and put them back into play or get new ones at the "pro" shop?

LIGHT CONDITIONS (or no wind). Many different opinions here.

Translation... There's an obvious single best procedure for dealing with the problem but we're gonna disregard the one or two percent who have things right and spend decade after decade listening to the lunatic babblings of total idiots.

I believe in come in hot and fast, stay prone as long as possible. Hands on the control bar till the bitter end - almost (four or five seconds before flaring) and then BOOM... flare!

http://vimeo.com/36062225

T2 Landing 2/1/2012
http://vimeo.com/39385390

Steve Pearson Landing

This is not the "Greblo technique".

No. The Greblo technique is based on the assumption that you will die if you even think about staying prone and bellying in...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27086
Steve Pearson on landings

Steve Pearson - 2012/03/28 23:26:05 UTC

I wouldn't presume to teach others how to land but for me the challenge is having precise control of the glider before flare. The flare window is really long on a T2, maybe two seconds or fifty feet, but I can't initiate pitch unless the wings are level and the glider isn't yawed. Landing straight is easy in smooth or dead air but sometimes requires every bit of control authority that I can manage if the LZ is breaking off or if I have to maneuver late on approach. I always have plenty of pitch authority and don't grip the downtubes because it only takes a light push to get the nose up. I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.

...and that control authority with one's hands on the downtubes will always be good enough.

Search the forum for this method. Very popular and also a valuable tool to have in your armory of landing techniques.

Wouldn't hurt. But I'm not seeing much in the way of situations appropriate for it which couldn't be addressed more safely with a wheel landing.

We fly like that (hands on the control bar)... why not land like that?

This sport isn't about landing in CONTROL. It's all about perfecting our golf swing.