Releases

General discussion about the sport of hang gliding
deltaman
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Re: Releases

Post by deltaman »

-Towing one point is always more dangerous than two.
Do you consider there are enough benefits to keep 2 points with carabiner anchor point rather than 4 strings emergency release or a barrel remote or a linknife on a side of your bridle with 1 point ?

Remote barrel
Downsides ?
With the rubber, no release without any load..
How do you manage the length variation of the lanyard with different pilot position, back to front the basebar ?
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: Releases

Post by Tad Eareckson »

Carabiner anchor...

If you go to the carabiner you need to use cable...

- And we both know what can happen with cable.

- And that means you've got to have a lot of cable in the airflow because of the range of control movement between the carabiner and the downtube.

- And you won't trim as well with respect to control frame position and thus you'll have to hold some pressure on the bar when you're going up and you'll lose some upper speed range...
-- especially on a lower performance glider; and
-- who wants all that crap in the airflow on a higher performance glider?

I don't like anchoring at the carabiner.

If you tow one point you lose a lot of upper speed range no matter what you're flying and if you're hit by a strong thermal shortly after launch it could mean the difference between being able to ride it out and continue the tow and getting killed.

But that's a very small risk - zillions of people tow one point in really strong thermal conditions successfully all the time - and I think it can be managed by having ribbons along the runway.

And if I'm flying a demo glider I'll fly it one point rather than slapping a cable release onto it.
Do you consider there are enough benefits...
Ideally all gliders should come with built-in clean two point releases. Until that happens (don't hold your breath)...

I'd fly one point with a barrel on the left for normal use and the Four-String on the right for emergency.

Next choice would be a regular barrel and a remote.

Then a barrel and a Linknife.

Then a barrel and a Russian bite controlled release.

The Russian goes last because it's a bit clunky and I'm probably never going to be in a situation in which I need an emergency release.

Remote Barrel downsides...

Keel mounted - none.

Shoulder mounted...

The Four-String is really cool because once it's armed it's self powered. If a situation starts looking bad you can give a light tug to disengage the Trigger Line from the Clamcleat and then - if it becomes necessary - just relax your bite and you're gone. It doesn't get any better than that.

And if you don't have any warning - a very light tug and let go.

Its slack line performance sucks but:
- you have a Barrel with excellent slack line performance on the other side;
- you can still blow an armed Four-String with one hand; and
- slack line situations are rare and can be avoided and I'm not much worried about them.

The Remote Barrel requires a light tug - and thus a bit of head movement - at the time you use it.

How do you manage the length variation of the lanyard...

Keel or shoulder mounted - non issues.

For a two point lanyard you could use excess lanyard length and just adjust the Button position to wherever you want and tie, trim, or ignore the excess.

For a shoulder mount you can use excess lanyard and eat the excess. You can continually adjust the play by eating string to take out slack and paying it back out if you feel like looking around. And you can EASILY replace the lanyard in a matter of seconds with whatever length of string you want.

And you're only worried about these things when you're in striking range of the runway. After I'm up a couple of hundred feet I spit them out.
deltaman
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Re: Releases

Post by deltaman »

How do you manage the length variation of the lanyard...
(...)
For a shoulder mount you can use excess lanyard and eat the excess
I thought I read that the lanyard was in the hand ..mistake.

If I have a look on Top Release Location of WW, the use of a carabiner position starts from U2 (# intermediate gliders).
So, do we have more speed available on this position too ?
If not really, the 2 point is only to consider for slower gliders..
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: Releases

Post by Tad Eareckson »

If you tow one point or two point anchoring at the carabiner or the hang point ALL of the tow tension is going to the hang point and the glider will trim at the same speed.

Towing one point the pendulum - you - will be pulled forward with respect to the control frame (and the rest of the glider) so the bar will be way back at trim and when you stuff the bar you're not really stuffing the bar and you won't get the speed you would normally.

As you move a two point upper anchor point up the suspension you become less of a pendulum and the bar starts moving back (forward) towards where it should be.

If you're flying a lower performance glider the wing will generate more drag, fall behind more, and pitch up more when the anchor point is or points are low, you will be pulled farther forward and will have to use lots of muscle to hold the bar back to keep up to the tug's speed and down to its level.

A higher performance glider - like the U2 - will trim pretty well anchoring at the carabiner and you won't notice much difference as you go up to the hang point on the keel.

As you move forward on the keel from the hang point some of the tow tension will go to trimming the glider nose down / faster and that will make your job easier on a low performance glider and further move the bar forward and improve your stuffing effectiveness.

It's not a great idea to move the anchor point any farther forward on the keel than you have to. If you lose the bottom end of the bridle for any reason and get a wrap at the tow ring, the farther forward the anchor point the lower the probability of your survival.

So to summarize...

It's always an advantage to anchor any glider pilot and keel - but on the high performance stuff not that much.
deltaman
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Re: Releases

Post by deltaman »

ok ok, thanks

something to say about the dangers of the propeller wash during a dolly launch ?
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: Releases

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14312
Tow Park accidents
Jim Rooney - 2009/11/10 17:19:54 UTC

Ah, back to civil discussion.
(Immediately after Tad's been banned from The Jack Show.)
Something to note about leaving carts....
There is a drastic difference when being pulled by a 582 or a 914/912.

People have a tendency to leave the cart too soon when behind a 582. With the big tugs however, the problem is the opposite. This is especially obvious when you take someone that tows behind 582s and put them behind a 914.

It doesn't sound like a problem at first... more speed is good right? As with all things, yes but .... "to a point". See what happens behind a 914 if you use 582 technique is this....

You accelerate very rapidly of course and gain a lot of speed. I call it leaving the cart at Mach 5. No problem yet (well, there's a small one, but we'll get to that). As you leave the cart, the tug is already a good bit above you, so you ease off the bar pressure (you've got a ton at this point) and this is just about the same time you slam into the prop wash. Your weaklink lets go.

After a couple weaklink breaks in this manner, you start to wonder if Tad's right about these "weak" weaklinks. Nevermind that it's a technique problem not an equipment problem. Nevermind that using a stronglink greatly increases the chances that you will hurt yourself in a very bad way.

See, weaklinks don't care about speed. They care about load. Going Mach5 and easing off the pitch, even a little bit, greatly increases your load... remember that whole bit about windspeed being an exponential factor?

So there you are with in a highly loaded situation, and then you shockload the system by hitting the propwash. Not good.

Your weaklink is doing exactly what it should do.

Behind a 914, set the cart correctly, resist getting "pulled through" the bar by the tow force, and allow the glider to simply fly out of the cart. Don't pull in. Don't lock yourself to the cart. In short, don't use 582 technique. Consult an instructor (that's familiar with 914s) for a more detailed explanation than this.

Behind a 582, the problem is as stated before... people get antsy to get out of the cart. You do roll till you're practically lift the cart. It's a very different world.
Jim Gaar - 2009/11/10 17:24:26 UTC

Yepper. I went from a Falcon 195 behind a 582 to a U2 behind a 912s...

Only took me 3 tows and one near lockout to get it together. No weaklinks broke though :?

Oh the humanity! :lol: 8-)
Jim Rooney - 2009/11/10 17:28:51 UTC

Oh, and that "not a problem yet" thing I was talking about... you can actually nose over and faceplant. It's happened. "Too much of a good thing" ;)

So what's one to do if they find themselves leaving the cart at Mach5?
WAIT

Wait till you hit the propwash before climbing. In fact, just before you hit it, pull in a bit... this will lessen the load on the weaklink. You'll be well above the ground at this point because when you do let go of the cart, you'll blast off the earth... you're going Mach5, the tug is pulling you up since he's already climbing, and you've just lowered your wingloading by a very severe degree (those carts are very heavy, and you just lifted one off the ground).

Wait till you've hit that shock, then slowly and smoothly ease off the pressure and get back into position.

The best advice though is to learn 914 technique and quit using 582 technique when you're not behind a 582.
Translation: If you're not using an idiot Straub/Rooney Link to increase the safety of the towing operation - PERIOD - the propwash is a total nonissue.
deltaman
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Re: Releases

Post by deltaman »

PULL & PUSH barrel release

a barrel you can release with absolute no load..
In this case, you push and loose the (cheap) barrel, but sometimes save your life..
with the shape of the (blue) piece you can't loose the barrel when have been pulled.
need a brake component with internal resistance

http://www.flickr.com/photos/psucvollibre/6303452182/
Image
deltaman
Posts: 177
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Re: Releases

Post by deltaman »

What do you think of this 2 steps release for towing?
A push and pull barrel/string release (a pin not strong enough, an ID barrel too large)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/psucvollibre/6311953484/
Image

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyPaFa-m5rc

2 steps barrel-strings release for towing.wmv
PSUCVOLLIBRE - 2011/11/04

AT-2 POINTS
A friend would try a sheathed wire spliced at both loops rather than a V-bridle. He expect having less wrap issue..
less easy to store.
a comment ?
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: Releases

Post by Tad Eareckson »

Push/Pull release... Clever idea, my hat's off to you, however...

The Four-String:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8306152861/
Image

and shoulder mounted Remote Barrel:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8312402264/
Image

are both better ways of a addressing the issue.

- Whereas the Four-String and Remote Barrel can be released under load no hands and slack one hand, the Push/Pull requires one hand for both situations.

- You don't lose the Push/Pull barrel when you blow a slack line 'cause it's still in your hand but you do have to stow it. There's nothing that needs to be dealt with after either of the other two are actuated.

- The Push/Pull is a bit bulky and a little more likely to catch on the basetube and auto release - and it can auto release by being dragged forward AND backwards. The Remote Barrel only gets it going forward and is less susceptible and the Four-String is immune.

So I don't think this idea is worth pursuing for this application but if you want to do something anyway...
- You would get better performance by centering the leechline hole and the weak link slot on the centerline of the plate.
- And you could then add brake components to the leechline for adjustable internal resistance.

Two Stage release...

That's also a very clever idea.

It's a combination two-string (after you factor in the bridle step-down) / barrel release.

However...

- Tell him to put thimbles in his towline over/under extension eyes. His material is already getting chewed up by the naked eye splices.

- It looks like he's using perlon (high stretch).

- As you note, the cotter pin idea is crap. My basic barrel release design could EASILY be adapted to serve as a foundations for that assembly.

- As it is - it's dangerous.
- You're pushing your luck already by needing to take a hand off the basetube - which you also have to do with the Koch two stage.
- The barrels are harder to find and operate than a Koch paddle.
- You need to find and operate TWO barrels to blow tow in a low level emergency.

Suggestion...

- Put a halyard ball like the ones on the halves of this Three-String Release bridle:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8320997523/
Image

on the upper (loaded at takeoff) towline extension - and build things up on the extension as necessary for a pretty tight fit.

- Run a lanyard forward to a Linknife engaging a weak link (or some sacrificial element) just forward of the upper/lower towline extension split.

That would be every bit as good as - probably better than - the Koch two stage and cheaper, lighter, cleaner.

The wire bridle...

I'm not sure I understand what he's proposing but I don't think I'm gonna be very enthusiastic about it. Cable isn't meant to make sharp turns at tow rings and I'm thinking it will do the opposite of what he's trying to accomplish.

Also...
- I think a good bridle design can pretty much eliminate wraps.
- I don't believe anyone's ever gotten in serious trouble because of a top end wrap.
- A one G secondary weak link virtually always makes a top end wrap a non issue.
- And an emergency release lanyard in your teeth REALLY makes one a non issue.
deltaman
Posts: 177
Joined: 2011/03/29 11:07:42 UTC

Re: Releases

Post by deltaman »

I don't understand this:
1. Put a halyard ball like the ones on the halves of this Three-String Release bridle:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8320997523/
Image

on the upper (loaded at takeoff) towline extension - and build things up on the extension as necessary for a pretty tight fit.
I don't remember what do you advice as a surface towing takeoff.
I thought: 1 point under the basebar with dolly

0:33
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EiPtPo39ZI0


but which release(s) and where ?...
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