Weak links

General discussion about the sport of hang gliding
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: Weak links

Post by Tad Eareckson »

Could you check this sentence:
It would take more time than I have to debunk every bogus calculation that followed, but it's full of stuff like a solo glider towing with four strands of 130 is 'far beyond USHPA's nominal 1g recommendation', when it is in fact quite a bit below.
from:
http://www.kitestrings.org/post2231.html#p2231
They're talking about a double loop of 130 on the end of a two point bridle. Using 200 pounds for a double loop translates to 348 towline.
The article transcript is at:
http://www.kitestrings.org/post2230.html#p2230
(one up from your post).
Zack C
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Re: Weak links

Post by Zack C »

It's what I meant to write, if that's what you're asking. I addressed it again in my reply to your reply:
Zack C wrote:...just saying that if USHPA's recommendation is in fact that the weak link breaking point should be equal to the glider and pilot weight, four strands of 130 (200 lbs) will be under that recommendation for most pilots.
According to Tracy and Lisa, USHPA's (apparently secret) 'nominal 1g recommendation' doesn't refer to permitted line tension, but rather flying weight. Thus, I should be flying with a 260 lb weak link. The double loop of 130 breaks at 200...quite a bit below that.

Zack
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: Weak links

Post by Tad Eareckson »

Oops, sorry. I figure I'm losing two or three thousand brain cells a week now at this stage of my life. Memory of that exchange must've gotten mixed up and flushed out with some Tom and Jerry cartoons from the Sixties.

And I'm really wishing I could keep the Tom and Jerry stuff instead of having to allot so much storage space to the crap from Tracy and Lisa and their circle of hopelessly inbred friends.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: Weak links

Post by Tad Eareckson »

Tad Eareckson - 2012/07/21 16:31:55 UTC

It's a no brainer that an absolute minimum of ten percent of all aerotows terminate in standard aerotow weak link failures...
Zack C - 2012/07/22 18:45:22 UTC

I've talked about this before, but our operation is nowhere near that...maybe two percent.
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question
Janni Papakrivos - 2008/11/05 23:03:26 UTC

I probably witnessed fifty broken weak links this summer at Highland.
If Janni's in the right ballpark he's and Ridgely is blowing:
- ten percent he's seen five hundred launches.
- two percent he's seen twenty-five hundred launches.

I think those assholes are EASILY blowing ten percent. Maybe the 914 Dragonflies are making the difference.
Zack C
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Re: Weak links

Post by Zack C »

I really do think that's significant. I've only had one weak link break at Columbus but I've had many break at Lookout, even though at this point I've had far more tows at Columbus. Too bad we don't have data on how tension varies with engines/tugs.

Zack
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: Weak links

Post by Tad Eareckson »

Lemme know if you ever want indefinite loan of my hydraulic cylinder based aerotow tension gauge setup.

Another idea that should give us some good relative values...

Use the GPS to record record tows on various tug flavors. The climb rates should be proportional to the tensions.

(Really speaks well for the people running these operations that after nearly three decades of mainstream aerotowing these numbers - along, to a lesser extent, with actual 130 pound Greenspot weak link failure values - remain such mysteries.)
Steve Davy
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Re: Weak links

Post by Steve Davy »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26713
First attempts at Aerotowing.
Paul Edwards - 2012/07/27 01:50:32 UTC
Tennessee

Yep that's what I used to think about too. I still think about those situations every time I tow. You have to in order to keep safe. I change my weak links often and make sure I get my launches right. I choose my conditions conservatively and I've never had a problem or even a moment of concern while towing.

I've also seen some people do some boneheaded stuff. One guy I watched veered to the left, going into lockout just off the cart. Thinking he could save it he held on just an extra second or two... just long enough to ensure he pounded in royally after the tug gave him the rope. He was fine, though the glider needed some downtubes. Another guy accidentally pulled the release at the same moment as he let go of the cart to lift off. He came down again on top of the cart in an awkward position, but with no damage to him or the glider.
Steve Davy
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Re: Weak links

Post by Steve Davy »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26713
First attempts at Aerotowing.
sboost1 - 2012/07/28 15:55:01 UTC
Montreal

I remember my first attempt at towing many years ago on my WW Super Sport (reputed to be one of the worst behaving wings to tow). I broke the weak link on my first two attempts which just turned me away from the whole idea of towing.
Zack C
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Re: Weak links

Post by Zack C »

Tad Eareckson wrote:Lemme know if you ever want indefinite loan of my hydraulic cylinder based aerotow tension gauge setup.
I would freaking love that. It would be great if I could capture the readings with a camera...then I could get measurements for pilots of different weights without anyone having to take his eyes off the tug. And I'm sure Jack would let me get some tandem readings next time we do tandem training.

Will the gauge work for surface towing as well?

Zack
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: Weak links

Post by Tad Eareckson »

This cylinder/gauge combo is the same one I use for my load tester:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8317889807/
Image

and it's a heavy bulky chunk of metal. It's not something you wanna take/send up on a recreational flight. It needs to be a dedicated flight preferably in sled conditions with halfway competent people on both ends.

It needs to come down with the glider which means that - for most accurate results - it needs to be configured at the back end of a release that's feeling the full towline tension.

What I recommend you do - after you've gotten a one point tow or two under your belt - is run a short fixed bridle between your shoulder snap shackles and through the Rod Clevis on the piston of the cylinder (so's it will float and center (as would a tow ring or primary bridle thimble)) which is configured gauge down. (The gauge is heavy and will wanna rotate things upside down if you don't start that way.)

A barrel release is installed on the cylinder's fixed/upwind end.

The barrel release engages the back end of 324 pound (18 stitch) Towline Shear Link which protects the cylinder and gauge which both have 500 PSI pressure / 388 pound tension capacities.

The Shear Link is engaged by the towline carabiner.

If you can get a helmet or downtube camera on the gauge fine - if not, also fine.

It's OK if you look at the gauge for a couple of seconds periodically but don't stare at - as you'll be tempted to. If you do you won't be able to find the tug when you look up again. (Ask me how I know.)

We're only interested in the steady state climb reading. Lows and highs are meaningless - we already know they can go down to zero and up to weak link.

Multiply the PSIs by 0.776 to get pounds of towline tension.

Record the flight with a GPS receiver so we know the climb rate and angle.

Also record temperature, relative humidity, barometric pressure.

For a tandem or a solo glider that doesn't like to be towed one point just pop the thimble out of the two point bridle and Lark's Head it onto the upwind loop of the Towline Shear Link (after popping its thimble - if present). Towline tension will be the PSI reading times 1.35.

Have the tug plan to end the tow at five hundred feet so he eases up on the gas and levels out.

When he waves you off push out to climb then pull in to slacken the line and pull the barrel release.

Do something to secure the cylinder on/in your harness to avoid dragging it on landing.

But if you land into the wind and drag it on the grass a bit the world won't end.

For platform...

http://vimeo.com/10550686


Lose the black box on the trailer.

Use a longer fixed bridle between the snap shackles on your hips and do everything the way you did for one point aero 'cept use a Mason Release in place of the barrel with the lanyard going back to one of your hips and use a thimble in the back end of the Towline Shear Link.

You may need to have the cylinder/gauge assembly rotated right side up to read the gauge and with the high towline angle have less trouble doing it.

If you start approaching weak link - 417.5 on the gauge - then release and we'll configure such that the cylinder only sees half the load.

But I'm guessing the top-out tension on the top end won't be too much higher than what can be measured at the bottom end with the same diameter of line on the drum with the same hydraulic pressure.
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