instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

[Steve Davy]

1. It's a Harken 405 16 millimeter AirBlock with a twelve hundred pound breaking strength.

I looked for a reference to that AirBlock in mousetraps and couldn't find it.

[Tad Eareckson]

Looking at the photos posted by deltaman...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/psucvollibre/6948550271/


- Releases are simple machines which use mechanical advantage to step the load down to something that can be dealt with easily by a human on the actuation mechanism.

- Schweizer sailplane releases, spinnaker shackles, barrel releases are all second class levers. They're loaded with a towline or bridle end at or just downwind of the fulcrum / pivot point and retained at the at the downwind end of the lever. The longer the lever the lighter the required retaining force and the easier the actuation effort.

- The multi-string releases work on the principle of a pulley / block and tackle system.

- On the Four-String the long loop engages the Bridle Link eye and is then engaged by the middle loop which is engaged by the short loop which is engaged by the Trigger Line.

- Each step cuts the load in half.

- Also the friction and stiffness of the leechline very substantially further reduce the transmitted tension. That would would be a very bad thing if we were trying to lift something with this device and it's sure not helping us if we're trying to deal with a slack line situation - but it's really nice when we're using for its primary purpose of aborting a tow under anything around normal tension on up to weak link.

- But for the purpose of this exercise ignore the previous Item.

- When the Trigger Line is released its end moves twice the distance at twice the speed of the end of the short loop which it's engaging.

- And likewise through the sequence.

- Furthermore the Bridle (Link) is also splitting the towline load in half and functions as a fifth string.

- So at release time you have five ends of things sequentially feeding through four loops and (finally) a tow ring.

- So... What was the question? Oh yeah.

What all this confusing crap boils down to that there's not as much relative movement of stuff at the tow ring as you'd think by looking at it and - even though it looks scary - you see a surprisingly good margin when you're pulling it apart on the table and watching things move.

I looked for a reference to that AirBlock in mousetraps...

It's in there. "Materials" section at the end. Or... Search for "Harken" in the document. The ninth hit gets you to the specs.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26968
Wills Wing by the seat of your pants

Christopher LeFay - 2012/03/15 14:42:23 UTC

That's one of the things I love about this site: it's a safe place where women can feel they are amongst people ready to accept them into the sport as respected equals.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25543
Using magnets as weaklink

Andrew Stakhov - 2012/03/14 18:48:15 UTC
Toronto
H3 AT ST FL
WW Sport 2, T2C

What do you guys think of using rare earth neodymium magnets instead of rope based weak links. I think it may provide a more consistent performance then a regular weaklink, and be more reusable.

There is other potential to explore too as magnets are easier to slide off each other then to pull straight apart. This can be a disadvantage which can be mitigated by creating a shallow shaft to prevent sliding OR an advantage, as if you consider a lockout scenario, the sliding effect will allow you to auto disengage when the glider gets too much off centre even before the forces build up to full rating of the magnet.

Comments, thoughts?

- Why are you asking those guys? Anybody who can think was banned from The Jack Show years ago?

- What's a "regular" weak link? Just kidding.

- Why?

- What's the purpose of a weak link?

- What number are you shooting for when you're aiming for consistent performance?

- What kind of performance? Standup comedy?

- Where are you going to put it?

- How are you planning on configuring it so it will pull apart laterally?

- Can you envision a scenario in which the glider has gotten too much off centre but the magnets not sliding apart is the only thing keeping you alive?

- If you consider a lockout scenario, what's stopping you from releasing? Industry Standard equipment?

- Have you been paying ANY attention to the stuff Zack and Antoine have been posting?

- What total fucking moron signed you off on your AT rating?

- If you see you see Mike Dead-Eye Robertson say hi for me and thank him on my behalf for the really great job he's doing training and educating you guys.

FlyBig - 2012/03/14 18:55:56 UTC
Bay Area

My thoughts are a magnet to provide the 200 pounds (I forget what it is) force would be large and heavy. It could provide a hazard when snapping back and hitting the pilot or glider.

- Did you ever have the slightest clue what it was?
- Would it be the same for all gliders?
- If you're using low stretch materials how is it gonna snap back?

hangster - 2012/03/14 18:58:22 UTC

That would be cool, you wouldn't even need a release, just turn away from the tug and slide off tow.

- Yeah! Well it's not like any of you guys have anything that could be considered a release now anyway.

- This sounds a lot like Ryan's instant hands free release.

http://vimeo.com/17472550

password - red
2-1306
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7258/13851486814_77efdf1004_o.png


Any comments, Ryan?

- Matt has people using something that works like that now. Really nice to see the convergence of thinking of the great minds in this sport.

- After you've turned away from the tug and the magnets have slid apart what's the glider gonna do and how much altitude is it gonna eat up doing it?

Andrew Stakhov - 2012/03/14 20:28:11 UTC

I checked around for 200lb you would need aprox 2"x1" size disk magnet, which would be in range of 1.5kg (3lb). However, it might still be a good idea to use these further down the line closer to the tug where it doesn't matter as a permanent weak link. The end of the rope that you have can be a smaller and lighter one.

- Do they have any 1.5 G magnets? See if you can find a 480 pound job for me.

- The US regulation doesn't say:

It might still be a good idea to use these further down the line closer to the tug where it doesn't matter as a permanent weak link.

It says:

A weak link must be placed at both ends of the tow line.

There's a good reason for that.

- How small and light a line do you need to use to make sure the glider won't be killed if it snags something on the ground?

Dennis Wood - 2012/03/14 20:58:34 UTC

first rule of engineering: KISS

Yeah peanuts. But I never hear that from anyone who's actually engineered anything. Just totally useless shitheads who'd finish a distant second to a chimp in a sharp stick making contest.

Jim Gaar - 2012/03/15 02:13:33 UTC

Interesting idea...

Tough to keep them clean, dang things pick up everything!
Can't see them being "better" or more safe then string.

- Yeah, interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjncKQ02FJ8


- "Better" or more safe than WHAT string?

JJ Coté - 2012/03/15 02:27:06 UTC

Not only is it tough to keep them clean, but once you get any kind of grit on them, the distance between the magnets increases, and the force goes down. At the short distances involved, the difference can be dramatic, and the consistency you're hoping for may not be available.

Yeah, we better stick with the tournament fishing line we're using now. Really hard to beat that stuff for the precision upon which our lives so often depend.

Miller Stroud - 2012/03/15 02:38:10 UTC
Arlington, Tennessee

Why reinvent the wheel. A weak link cost about 2 cents. Keep it simple and you remove thousands of variables.

Hey Miller...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYe3YmdIQTM


How much do you think that one cost? I'm guessing a good many multiples of the glider and the vehicle on which it arrived.

Dennis Wood - 2012/03/15 02:50:25 UTC

i think the biggest problem with the present material used for weak links is that people haven't learned to tie a proper knot yet.

I read the first two words of that sentence and figured the rest of it wasn't worth the effort.

Oh, what the hell...

So what's the problem?

- Are they coming untied on launch?

- If they're improperly tied do you lose the precision you need for lockout protection that you get with the properly tied ones?

- Are they so long that they're welding themselves to the tow ring? Maybe Lauren or one of the other eminently qualified tandem pilots from Quest could help us out on that issue.

Christopher LeFay - 2012/03/15 06:42:16 UTC

I'm off-put by the weight/rock on the end of the string - still, if that threat could be totally mitigated, there are a few good reasons - the answers all amount to "make a better wheel". Amongst other benefits, each pilot-side magnet could be specific to that pilots loading. The problem of unclean connections resulting in bond strength variation might be addressed through stronger magnets coupled with a gaping fixture - but then you have a bigger rock on the end of the rope. Another concern would be the need for appliances on the tow queue for testing magnet strength depletion...

Why on earth would people choose to reinvent the wheel...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 21:40:25 UTC

Weaklink material... exactly what Davis said.

It's no mystery.
It's only a mystery why people choose to reinvent the wheel when we've got a proven system that works.

...when we've got a proven system that works.

Manta_Dreaming - 2012/03/15 06:53:56 UTC

Maybe the use of sheet/flexible magnets, so you have lots of surface area with lower mass than traditional magnets.

Have you guys talked to the sailplane people? Seems a shame to waste all this creativity on just this one marginal little branch of aviation.

Adi Branch - 2012/03/15 13:12:54 UTC
UK

The few tow operations over here use aluminium weak links for AT... I've often wondered why they don't in the US?

Yeah? Well ALUMINIUM is NONMAGNETIC. Did you think of THAT! Fuck off and get back to where you came from. Christ...

CinCas - 2012/03/15 19:06:52 UTC

what about electromagnet. i bet if someone would spend some time they could come up with more compact version of this

http://www.scientificsonline.com/electro-magnet-200-pound-lift.html

Yeah, I'll bet someone could. But this crowd is pushing the limits at tying its shoes and in some serious gray area tying weak links.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24534
It's a wrap

Right Paul and Lauren?

Kinsley Sykes - 2012/03/15 23:30:18 UTC

I think the biggest problem is the pretty much total lack of a problem.

Right.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pC1yrdDV4sI

26-41804
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2911/14840042073_792c31a351_o.png


http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3842/14633550919_57af1df255_o.png
32-42004
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTKIAvqd7GI

04-2301
http://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5535/14077566935_0a5d82d279_o.png

08-2323
http://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5553/14097605903_0e4c69be73_o.png

21-2900
http://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5156/14074342991_52404ffb88_o.png

22-2907
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7345/14077539605_d356a1f6fd_o.png

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ba_rO_VAhGk

Aerotow Quick Link Break on Takeoff
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsEie-e4Ljc
kartingjj - 2012/01/09
dead
09-1606

13-1612

17-1619

22-1820

29-2315

30-2404

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYe3YmdIQTM


Everything's fine. It's a total mystery why people choose to reinvent the wheel when we've got a proven system that works.

So if you don't have a problem why are all you Jack Show clones having this absolutely lunatic discussion which is racking up over 27 hits per idiot post in which nobody - 'cept for Adi - has the slightest fucking clue even what a weak link is?

Where is Tad when we need him?

He's over here, laughing his ass off at all you brain damaged bozos...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Steve Davy - 2011/08/31 10:11:32 UTC

Zack figured it out. Well done Zack! Enjoy your vacation.

Kinsley Sykes - 2011/08/31 11:35:36 UTC

Well actually he didn't. But if you don't want to listen to the folks that actually know what they are talking about, go ahead.
Feel free to go the the tow park that Tad runs...

...running his little cyber tow park with Zack, someone who may or may not be Ridgerodent, Antoine, Larry West, and Mike Lake - people who all know the difference between a release, a Lookout Release, and a weak link and think and speak of the latter in terms of Gs.

You could come over here too if you wanted but I don't think it would do any good 'cause, frankly, you don't have enough in the way of brains to recognize who has them and who doesn't.

Dan Johnson - 2012/03/16 05:08:05 UTC

Two hard rubber half shells, with a specific vacuum applied, ala the Torricelli experiment? They would still hurt!

Sorry, I'm starting to get pretty drained. Maybe someone else can submit an insulting derisive comment I can edit in later.

xerxes - 2012/03/16 12:51:12 UTC
Atlanta
H2 AT FL CL FSL
Mark IV

I couldn't help but reply to this...

I don't see how ANYBODY - who isn't struck speechless by the extent of the absolute lunacy we're seeing here - can help but reply to this.

A 2"x1" rare earth magnet is no joke! I had a pair of them a while back and had to throw them away because they were just too dangerous to keep around. You have to plan your route when you walk around with one and avoid going near anything metal like scissors or knives. They can break your bones. Not something I'd want to tote around.

Yeah, why would anybody wanna reinvent the wheel to break bones using a weak link that's expensive, heavy, bulky, hard to tote around, and can suck scissors and knives into you when we can break bones...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYe3YmdIQTM


...just fine using the time tested and proven 130 pound Greenspot standard aerotow weak link which only only costs two cents a pop, weighs nothing, takes up virtually no space, and won't suck scissors and knives into you?

Hundreds of thousands of launches and attempted launches with it. Hard to beat a track record like that!

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25565
Hang Gliding Qs doing a research project

philhuo146 - 2012/03/17 10:04:22 UTC

Hi,

I'm Phillip and I'm a student at school doing a research project about Hang Gliding. I was wondering if you could answer some of my questions or provide me with some helpful people and their emails so I can contact them and ask them about Hand Gliding.

Bob Kuczewski
bobkuczewski@gmail.com

That's pretty much all you need.

01. What drives you to do Hang Gliding?

I've forgotten.

02. What aspect of Hang Gliding is the most fun for you?

Sending Personal Messages to people of varying ages.

03. Why did you decide to Hang Glide?

The equipment is dangerous crap and thus about ten percent cheaper then you'd pay for stuff that works like they have in conventional aviation.

04. What sort of safety measures are there in Hang Gliding, why do they exist?

Lawyers to screen all the fatality reports to keep instructors, schools, flight parks, and organizations from having their asses sued out of existence.

05. What sort of protective gear do you wear, and how do you use it?

You wear a helmet to slam into the keel after perfecting your standup landings to the point that you can safely dispense with wheels.

06. What speeds do you reach when you Hang Glide?

Hooked in or dangling from the basetube?

07. What are the forces that are acting upon you?

Incompetence, stupidity, apathy, cowardice, self interest, sense of community, coverups, censorship, corruption.

08. How do you feel when you are Hang Gliding?

Disgusted.

09. In what ways are hang gliding and parachuting alike or different?

Are you gonna adhere to the sidewire load test preflight procedure in your owner's manual or do what your instructor tells you?

10. Explain why you need so much safety equipment and their uses.

- Backup suspension. Keeps you safely connected to the glider after you've pulled fifty Gs and blown the primary.

- 130 pound Greenspot standard aerotow weak link. Prevents dangerous stalls. If you fail to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon), it will break before you can get into too much trouble. When it doesn't break before you can get into too much trouble if you fail to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon), you can use it as an instant hands free release by rolling and pushing out before you can get into too much trouble.

- Hook knife. Lets you release from tow in a turn after your Lockout Mountain Flight Park Release is overloaded.

- Yates Screamer. Mitigates the opening shock after you've spent four thousand feet trying to pry your parachute out of your Wills Wing Covert harness container.

11. How do you get pumped up before you hang glide?

By doing a hang check in the setup area and repeating:
"I know I'm hooked in because I did a hang check in the setup area."
every two minutes while inching forward in the launch line.

12. What are the preparations for hang gliding?

Pay attention in physics class and see how well what you're being told in hang gliding class lines up with it.

Cheers,
Phillip

- Stay out of it.

- If you DON'T stay out of it...

http://www.kitestrings.org/post15.html#p15

Zack C - 2010/12/13 04:58:15 UTC

I had a very different mindset too back then and trusted the people that made my equipment. Since then I've realized (largely due to this discussion) that while I can certainly consider the advice of others, I can't trust anyone in this sport but myself (and maybe the people at Wills Wing).

...trust NO ONE in the sport but yourself (and maybe your physics teacher if he's any good).

[Steve Davy]

Tad,

I want to read your analysis of the Shane Smith incident. The search function here gives me this.

The following words in your search query were ignored because they are too common words: smith shane.
You must specify at least one word to search for. Each word must consist of at least 3 characters and must not contain more than 14 characters excluding wildcards.

Have you been able to use the search function effectively?

[Zack C]

Have you been able to use the search function effectively?

The search function on this site sucks...you're best off using Google. You can restrict results to a single site by adding "site:[URL]" to the end of your query string, where [URL] is the address of the site you want to search. So, to search for 'shane smith' on this site, just search for this in Google:

shane smith site:www.kitestrings.org

Some boards (like hanggliding.org) require you to be logged in to use their search feature. You can use this technique to search them without having to log in. (Plus, Google works better...)

Zack

[Tad Eareckson]

I'll save you the trouble.

I've spent half my life working to, where possible, eliminate and, where not, minimize any possibility of a lock.

And these total idiots go out and configure such that there's no possibility of the release NOT locking.

There is absolutely NOTHING to be learned from that one.

Reminds me a lot of the eminently qualified tandem pilot Lauren Tjaden from Quest Air, the flight park that's been involved in perfecting aerotowing for nearly twenty years, and the astonishment she experienced upon discovering that a weak link ten times longer than it needed to be was capable of welding itself to the tow ring - in a random incident that we all could learn from.

[Zack C]

From Davis, regarding Antoine's hands-free releases:

For extra safety for the first few seconds on the cart

Antoine's response:

Davis, that's not only an extra safety for the few seconds on the cart but the few ones in the air after the take off when something wrong could help you to hit the ground.

I can't believe that had to be pointed out...

Zack

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/10.066
Mouth release

Davis Straub - 2006/03/27 18:00:13 UTC

I'll be working with and testing this device

Steven Kinsley writes:

I have designed a mouth release that I think works very well. It is a modified 3 ring where you hold the final loop in your teeth. The final loop is routed through a grommet on the release strap which further cuts the tension. Also, there is a barrel/keeper on the strap so that when you are 200 feet up or wherever you feel you are out of danger, you slide it forward pinching the loop against the grommet.

This converts it to a standard shoulder release so you don't have to keep the loop in your mouth the whole tow. I feel it would help prevent many of the accidents that I read about.

http://ozreport.com/docs/squidlinks.htm

I think that there is some work and testing to be done yet on this device and I'll report on that.

I spoke with Tom Lanning about the first few seconds on a cart launch. It is very clear from my experience and his analysis that things happen way too fast in these first few seconds if something goes wrong for the human to react in time to say grab a release. A mouth release may be the ticket.

The problem is that trouble occurs in these first few seconds say once every 1000 launches. This gives you the feeling that it won't happen to you, so why do anything extra to prepare for it. Having been around a few thousand launches I know that it happens and it has happened to me.

I want to be able to very very quickly release from the tug and hold onto the cart.

C'mon Zack, I can't believe that you can't believe that ANYTHING has to be pointed out at this point. Look at what you just had to point out to those Jack Show morons at:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25527
Mouth AT Releases

ferchrisake.

- Davis is a Quest, Ridgely, Flight Park Mafia, USHGA shill.

- These bastards have been working for over twenty years - very successfully - to sell the idea that the cheap shit they punch out at the rate one copy per two and a half minutes and price at twenty times the cost of production is perfectly safe. That:

Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"Never take your hands off the bar." - Tom Peghiny
"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson
"A bad flyer won't hurt a pin man but a bad pin man can kill a flyer." - Bill Bennett

- There's really no downside to taking a hand off the bar. (It's just a...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1143
Death at Tocumwal

Davis Straub - 2006/01/24 12:27:32 UTC

Bill Moyes argues that you should not have to move your hand from the base bar to release. That is because your natural inclination is to continue to hold onto the base bar in tough conditions and to try to fly the glider when you should be releasing.

...psychological thing you'd have overcome by now if you were a competent pilot.)

http://ozreport.com/12.081
Weaklinks - the HGFA rules

Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTC

Pilots must use weaklinks provided by the meet organizers and in a manner approved by the meet organizers. All weaklinks will be checked and use of inappropriate weaklinks will require the pilot to go to the end of the launch line to change the weaklink.

Weaklinks will consist of a single loop of Cortland 130 lb Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line and should be placed at one end of a shoulder bridle.

- A rope break or...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 13:47:23 UTC

Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.

...premature release is the best thing that can happen to you (whatever's going on back there).

- A bad pin man...

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 19:49:30 UTC

It's more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=16265
weaklinks

Kinsley Sykes - 2010/03/18 19:42:19 UTC

In the old threads there was a lot of info from a guy named Tad. Tad had a very strong opinion on weak link strength and it was a lot higher than most folks care for. I'd focus carefully on what folks who tow a lot have to say. Or Jim Rooney who is an excellent tug pilot. I tow with the "park provided" weak links. I think they are 130 pound Greenspot.

...is the only thing standing between civilization and total anarchy.

So Davis sabotages the announcement:

http://ozreport.com/16.052
Mouth releases

by inserting:

For extra safety for the first few seconds on the cart

and, since nobody in the entire history of aerotowing has ever had any need whatsoever of extra safety for the first few seconds on the cart, none of the Davis Show cult members think about the two hundred foot climb through the kill zone.

And on the Davis Show forum the topic sinks away into obscurity with no discussion whatsoever and zilch in the way of hits.

And did you see anybody from Wills Wing stepping in and doing anything?