Quest Air 2018 - state of the art AT

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=55583
Getting caught in the cart by your wheel

Rich Diamond - 2018/04/03 16:24:02 UTC

WOW, that was Scary, Thx for Sharing this ;
I still fly with a 3 point , Not protow. ... I totally Love the Getoff Tow Release, been using it for 4 yrs now, all that it takes is quick Jab forward and your off, your hand is just over the base tube by 1 in. .
I have been reluctant to Protow... just wonder how I can convert the Getoff Tow release to work with Protow , should I ever decide to change ?

In looking at the Cart , I notice 2 things JMO I don't like a tight / small u shaped keel holder , and 2nd looking at the Basetube Cradles, JMO, I like more Rounded than straight Vertical Cuts in the wood .
* Would be interested in others opinions on this !

This was the semiliterate pigfucker who initiated the lynch mob action to get me silenced from and denied access to the bullshit Houston club server. Oh well, that was the action which led to the founding of the only legitimate and fully publicly accessible hang gliding forum on the face of the English speaking planet.

(For any nonregulars the release to which he's referring is a spinoff of my system and was developed - by Joe Street - with a lot of my help and input.)

Gerry Grossnegger - 2018/04/03 17:33:04 UTC

I prefer the front of the cradle notches to be vertical. The control bar can't sneak forward and out of position that way, or get one corner forward.

The handles keep you down on the dolly, but do a piss-poor job at keeping your control bar from moving forward or back.

Your control bar can't possibly hang up on it just because the spot where your CB touches the notch is vertical. As soon as you go up a bit, you're out.

OK, the front corner of the notch can be rounded a bit, so that harness boots and strings and such can't catch there.

Strings need to be secured.

08c
http://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5798/30054525153_dd9f5de319_o.jpg


Zero excuse for a glider being hooked up when anything isn't. But of course there's zero excuse for hooking up a glider sporting total crap as tow equipment. And that covers damn near everything that's been done in Western hang gliding.

The back of the CB notch can be sloped, doesn't matter much there.

The tug should be able to yank the pilot, and therefore the glider, and therefore the dolly, forward a bit, with just the notch (even if the pilot's hands are off the handles), and the whole thing should stay correctly positioned. That will help mitigate any irregularities in the field that the dolly's wheels might hit.

Hear that, Florida Ridge patrons?

You don't want to fall off the dolly, or get pulled off the front of it, before your wing is flying. Or get crooked on it.

Mark Dowsett - 2018/04/03 20:53:53 UTC

Rich Diamond - 2018/04/03 16:24:02 UTC

I totally Love the Getoff Tow Release...

I am a big fan as well. It is the only release I sell/recommend.

- I don't see it on your website.

http://instinct.pro/collections/accessories
Accessories - Instinct Windsports

What I DO see is:

http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0705/9461/products/20170417_100534_1024x1024.jpg?v=1496940416

http://c1.staticflickr.com/1/883/26361399167_56a5c0b044_o.jpg

And beaucoup thanks for all the support you've given us battling all the stupid criminally negligent pin benders out there.

- How 'bout telling us about all the other crap - the stuff you DON'T sell/recommend. What's wrong with it? And if there's stuff wrong with it won't it be crashing and killing people at fairly good and constant rates?

However, using them as a shoulder release is not their intent nor have I tried it. I have been meaning to rig it up to see what I thinknof it but never get around to it.

How 'bout shoulder / one point bridle/release stuff in general? Guess you're perfectly OK with it 'cause it's been thoroughly field tested and there's no record of anyone ever having had the slightest problem with it, right?

You are right, the barrel will be clunky. The release cable would have to be run behind your arm and then down the downtube. I wonder if it would be in your way after release.

Well, I guess there are no other options out there for one point AT releases...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh3-uZptNw0


So what are ya gonna do?

I'm not keen pioneering things like this.

Me neither. There's really no way to predict on the ground what could happen in the air (or to a moon landing and back) so you're always better off using the tried and true stuff you KNOW will kill you for obvious rather than any of the short track record stuff that MIGHT kill you for reasons nobody’s ever been able to detect.

So watch yourself if you do try it.

And if you do anything else you'll be OK - so it would be a total waste of effort to watch yourself.

Of course make sure you have a barrel release on your other shoulder as well...

NO!!! That doubles the required actuation effort for both of them! Not to mention the fact that a shoulder release is supposed to directly engage a bridle end so you wouldn’t be able to use a weak link anywhere.

..and a hook knife handy...

Yeah. Just think what a non issue this Green Swamp launch would've been if only James/Richard had had a hook knife handy. That's where they work best - when you can't afford to take a hand off the control bar to access a barrel release. Whoever heard of anybody having the slightest problem hacking himself free with a handy hook knife in a low level lockout emergency situation? And let's not forget about the tried and true instant hands free release option either.

[<BS>]

Prior to impact this is little more than a rather severe ground level lockout. The glider's AT MOST feeling little more than what it would in a normal sixty degree (two G) coordinated turn. Port wingtip makes light contact with the surface, port wheel hooks on a rather light and freely rolling launch cart. It's feeling pretty much normal in-flight type loadings with nothing worth talking about in the way of torque.

I disagree. While the wing was yawing to its left, the cart, (supporting the keel behind the cable attachments and one control bar corner) was doing its best to go the opposite direction. All fueled by the towline essentially pulling from the unsupported controlbar corner to the right. With the left tip dragging, the glider pinned on the cart, I see the potential for unusually strong torque on the keel. Not sure how or if it contributed, but the left control bar wheel may also have influenced the castering of the cart wheel.

I'm predicting that with the 2018/04/02 12:40:08 UTC posting of the full resolution stuff plus the orphan crop we got our last deliberate delivery of useable new data.

Agreed.

[Tad Eareckson]

While the wing is yawing to its left, the cart, (supporting the keel behind the cable attachments...

The keel in your photo below/above is not in contact with the dolly's aft support. We can see daylight between the two. And that's the closest by a mile to everything else we have (all subsequent). And the damage control assholes are all bending over backwards to paint a picture of the support having been set absurdly low. (And the James/Richard asshole star of the show isn't bending over backwards to come in and set the record straight.)

...and one control bar corner) is doing its best to go the opposite direction.

My take is that if you lost the cart and moved things up a hundred feet things wouldn't look all that different. (And let's use a bullet thermal under the starboard wing to start getting things out of kilter before the photos start kicking in.) Hang gliders are majorly roll unstable/divergent on tow - the worse things get the worse things get FAST until the weak link keeps us from getting into too much trouble.

So you're pulling a glider which somehow got its starboard wing lifted connected some degree of sideways with a pro toad bridle 'cause this guy has the skill which makes an upper attachment to trim the nose down to normal totally unnecessary. So the glider keeps rolling to trim to the sideways pull, starts generating LOTSA lift and pitching "UP" (away from the tug) accordingly... Feedback loop. And it's taking the cart along with it in this surface example.

All fueled by the towline...

Fer sure. The one with the 115 horsepower zombie at the other end.

...essentially pulling from the unsupported controlbar corner to the right.

At the worst we see...

4


...the starboard half of the pro toad bridle is being bent around the control frame corner a little. At the next available shot after he's thrown in the towel, dropped to the low side, and is trying to pry himself loose with one hand and trying to keep his from getting his fucking neck broken with the other (using his left arm as a crush zone)...

5


...there's zero or negligible contact with tow "pressure" transmitting assembly.

With the left tip dragging...

4
http://c1.staticflickr.com/1/791/41148936032_e4097df8cd_o.jpg


Lightly.

...the glider pinned on the cart...

Just at the port corner of its control frame with a (hopefully castering) wheel right below it. I'd say this is in the ballpark of a similar situation on a frozen lake minus the cart.

...I see the potential for unusually strong torque on the keel.

Go to full res on 4 above. We DO see the keel pushed up at the control frame apex and pulled down at the nose and tail wires attachments. It's mildly bowed.

But in the next shot:

5
http://c1.staticflickr.com/1/900/26320843187_42024d4ef3_o.jpg


the tip's well clear and things look fine - for the moment - to me anyway.

Not sure how or if it contributed, but the left control bar wheel may also have influenced the castering of the cart wheel.

Maybe...

4


Good observation. But I don't think this glider is "heavy" enough to make that much of a big deal.

Agreed.

Prediction holding nicely at post time. u$hPa damage control operatives have yet to go wrong counting on the puppy caliber attention span of the membership.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=55649
High Resolution versions

Davis Straub - 2018/04/03 21:04:22 UTC

Steve Kroop writes:

It appears to me that the launch blocks are not properly spaced and centered which means the pilot did not have good hold-down authority on the right side when the right wing lifted first. It also appears that the left corner of control frame was not under the cart frame at first. If it turns out that the blocks were not centered and he did not have full hold-down authority on the right side, I suggest that as the glider rolled, the wheel THEN got caught in the cart frame.

Steve Kroop writes:

So how come the fuckin' douchebag doesn't POST? And directly engage with the unwashed masses? Afraid that some of us will remember some of his ancient idiot proclamations...

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/4633
Weaklinks and aerotowing (ONLY)

Steve Kroop - 2005/02/10 04:50:59 UTC

Davis,

Your weak link comments are dead on. I have been reading the weak link discussion in the Oz Report with quiet amusement. Quiet, because weak links seem to be one of those hot button issues that brings out the argumentative nature of HG pilots and also invokes the "not designed here" mentality and I really did not want to get drawn into a debate. Amusement, because I find it odd that there was so much ink devoted to reinventing the wheel. Collectively I would say that there have been well over a 100,000 tows in the various US flight parks using the same strength weak link with tens of thousands of these tows being in competition. Yes I know some of these have been with strong links but only the best of the best aerotow pilots are doing this.

...from well before the accepted standards and practices changed for no reason in particular?

How 'bout THIS:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 04:55:25 UTC

I mean seriously... ridgerodent's going to inform me as to what Kroop has to say on this? Seriously? Steve's a good friend of mine. I've worked at Quest with him. We've had this discussion ... IN PERSON. And many other ones that get misunderstood by the general public. It's laughable.

Still cool with the honor of being identified as a good friend of this asshole...

09-20
http://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5315/29962431842_1b260f7a81_o.png


...nobody's ever heard of before for the past year and a half?

It appears to me that the launch blocks are not properly spaced and centered...

1


Wow! You're right! The port one's way outboard and fine but the starboard one's way the fuck inboard about where his hand would've been at launch. What a clueless asshole! Also the Quest / Green Swamp launch crewperson who checked to make sure he had an appropriate weak link and appropriate bridle and was appropriately configured on the launch cart. Not to mention the asshole who signed his AT rating. Right Steve?

...which means the pilot did not have good hold-down authority on the right side when the right wing lifted first.

But still better than the authority he had to abort the tow when it had gone south before it reached Antarctica behind the zombie he had as a Dragonfly driver - right Steve?

It also appears that the left corner of control frame was not under the cart frame at first. If it turns out that the blocks were not centered and he did not have full hold-down authority on the right side, I suggest that as the glider rolled, the wheel THEN got caught in the cart frame.

Duh.

And I guess that there's zero possibility that the starboard cradle was set just fine at launch and just slid downhill...

1


...when the cart was getting rolled on its ear and bounced over the runway area turf - right Steve?

And look where it is in the last frame:

http://c1.staticflickr.com/1/865/26320837657_a2ea7a8803_o.jpg

Davis Straub - 2018/04/03 21:05:08 UTC

I respond:

Thank you for responding on behalf of all the muppets to whom Steve's not exposing himself.

Yes, the cradles should have been out further, on the right for sure.

Great minds.

And yes, the wheel catching is the result of all the problems before hand.

See above.

NMERider - 2018/04/04 04:20:57 UTC

Uh. How's the pilot doing?

Who gives a flying fuck how this piece o' shit who's getting as much of the accurate relevant information as possible shredded and who's too much of fucking coward and slimeball to identify himself and talk to us is doing?

Davis Straub - 2018/04/04 13:11:07 UTC

He's still signed up for Big Spring.

And will be doing the exact same things over and over hoping for better results - or at least that the next time this happens it will happen to somebody else.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=55583
Getting caught in the cart by your wheel

Tormod Helgesen - 2018/04/04 05:47:01 UTC

Don't put up the rear cradles to high though, it's not very good to be stuck to the cart either.

Why not? Why is popping off tow six times in a row in light morning conditions on the decision of your Rooney Link a mere inconvenience which increases the safety of the towing operation a good thing while getting stuck to the cart is a bad thing? Tell me how that wouldn't give us a much better overall safety record with respect to launch attempts.

Gerry Grossnegger - 2018/04/04 13:44:00 UTC

If you're still on the cart and you're sure you're up to flying speed, just push out smoothly & strongly and you will lift off.

Fuck you Gerry. I'm NEVER sure I'm up to launch speed and NEVER push out smoothly and strongly. When I THINK I'm up to launch speed I very gently and gradually EASE the bar out. Then if I find I actually AM up to launch speed I continue easing out, lose the cart, start flying the tow.

Better to have the nose a bit low and have to fly it off the cart, than too high and have the cart fly you at the first waft of a breeze, or propwash, or thermal.

Bullshit. With any reasonable pitch set the wing will almost immediately pitch down to trim and the cradle setting will thus almost immediately have become totally irrelevant. The only danger of being set nose high is that of having a wing lifted in the first couple seconds before the wing goes aerodynamic.

Jim Gaar - 2018/04/04 13:48:56 UTC

Not always true...

And you'd certainly be a top expert on not always true stuff.

I gotta say...

You don't gotta say anything. You're an incompetent lying thieving total piece o' shit who's never contributed a single positive thing to the sport in your entire ten miles south of useless rotten existence.

...in at least one or two launches from a cart in a WW F1 Falcon 195 I got "stuck" and it took a heck of a lot of pushing out to get off the cart!

Who gives a rat's ass one way or another.

Glider spicific issue and outcome? Maybe! Be ready! Another second and I would have released.

Which you would've been able to do with your glider stuck down on the cart and incapable of actually flying.

YMMV!

It does - in every way imaginable.

Suck my dick. Ditto for anyone who tolerates your presence on a forum.

[<BS>]

The keel in your photo below/above is not in contact with the dolly's aft support. We can see daylight between the two. And that's the closest by a mile to everything else we have (all subsequent).

True. All the things I described are prior to that shot and require the keel in the cradle to exert torque on the keel. But that shot and the subsequent ones do show evidence of the glider and the cart twisting in opposing directions.

My take is that if you lost the cart...

My take is it's the cart that was able to exert torque on the keel while the keel was in the cradle.
From above, the cart was in effect rotating clockwise and the glider counterclockwise. And both with some pretty significant leverage. And the shape of that cradle notch looks able to lock a keel with lateral force on it. There's also what looks like evidence of the cradle having been tweaked to the left in subsequent shots.
Anyway, belabored too much on my part.

[Tad Eareckson]

Touché. I got locked into the assumption that everything was OK prior to the frame when the aft section of keel was angled DOWN. Didn't catch / Blinded myself to the sideways angle.

All quiet on The Davis Show now - twelve and a half hours...

[Steve Davy]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31297
Bent keel?!

Mike Harper - 2014/05/24 15:58:34 UTC

I have seen a keel break on a good landing. It was a nice flare but then the glider came down keel first. I think that's why mfg keep the keel so short to avoid hitting them on landings. I've often thought when setting up my glider, if the keel were a foot longer these wingtips wouldn't be in the dirt.

I suspect that Mr. Dope on a Rope had a previous good landing.

[Tad Eareckson]

I'm pretty sure not - for a couple reasons...

- From what I've experienced, consistent with what I'd expect, jamming the keel as a mark of perfected flare timing will break it at the tail wires bolt - where it doesn't really matter.

- This keel's broken at this point in the incident just aft of the control frame apex / kingpost base sleeve where it REALLY matters and he'd have HAD TO have replaced it.
---
P.S. - 2018/04/05 13:50:00 UTC

And Brian's analysis covers the situation REALLY WELL.

[<BS>]

Aw shucks, probably due to my profishancy training. I too considered and hadn't yet ruled out previous damage. The situation of how the keel broke is probably one of the least important issues and most likely had little to no impact on the passenger's injuries. The situation as a whole?

I mostly just see an ugly mess precipitated by a bog's worth of inexcusable stupidity, incompetence, arrogance, corruption that should've been dealt with decades before that glider was hooked up.