instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

General discussion about the sport of hang gliding
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://ozreport.com/docs/squidlinks.htm
Steve Kinsley - 2006/03/27

Squidlinks Emergency Release.

Squidlinks is a modified 3 ring where you hold the final loop, the release loop, in your teeth. The release loop is also routed through a grommet. Once safe altitude is reached, you slide the barrel/keeper over the grommet. This pinches the line so you don't have to hold on to the release loop with your teeth through the entire tow.

Figure 1. Basic Hook-up.

The release strap (red above) is attached to the shoulder tow point. The initial loop is shown going directly through the bridle without a weak link but it works fine with a weak link. To lock the release, slide the barrel down over the grommet (as shown above). When you are on the cart and hooked up to the tug, put the release loop in your mouth and slide the barrel back away from the grommet.

Figure 2. Ready to Tow

Note angle of release string. It should be a fairly sharp angle (near 90 degrees). This decreases the tow pressure. Also Note: Release loop shown going over chin guard for clarity but I generally run it under the chin guard. Putting it over pulls my helmet down.

Figure 3. Locking the release on tow

When you are 200 feet up or so grab barrel and shove it forward vigorously as far as it will go. You do not have to release the loop from your teeth first. It is actually very easy and quick. Practice it on the cart once or twice.

General Notes:

1. There is tow pressure. Not much when keel towing. More when shoulder towing. It is not horrible; it is not going to pull your teeth out or anything and it is only for 200 feet (or until whatever altitude you feel that you are out of danger). Yes, you can hold on even when the force is enough to pop the weak link.

2. Red strap material only: If you adjust the strap length, don't tie the release strap to the tow loop with an overhand knot. The strap material is too slick. Make a loop.

3. Yes, I agree that the stitching looks like it was done by a ten year old with ADD but it doesn't seem to matter.

4. This is a device intended to offer some advantage (significant advantage I believe) if the glider comes off the cart crooked and starts to kite. Every year, people are hurt or killed or have the crap scared out of them by this. It has never happened to me but I don't think I am immune. It reportedly happens really fast.

If you are lucky the weak link breaks before the glider reaches a non recoverable attitude. I think that most of these incidents are caused by improper (too high) AOA on the cart combined with windy (especially cross), and thermally conditions. Shoulder tow also complicates the situation.

If you are keel towing you can pull in on the cart and reduce the AOA (the keel pops out of the support). This is harder to do shoulder towing because you need to accelerate the cart and glider ahead of you which to some extent requires that you push out. Also, pulling in can get you pulled through the control frame. So check that AOA (tips parallel to the ground). And use the Squidlinks. And commit to getting off immediately if you are seriously crooked.
The initial loop is shown going directly through the bridle without a weak link but it works fine with a weak link.
That's insanity.
Towing Aloft - 1998/01

Safety Tip: Beware of threading a string release directly through a weak link or loop in the end of a small diameter rope. Do not thread a large diameter cord through a loop made with a much smaller diameter cord. Under tension, the smaller diameter cord can pinch the larger diameter material enough that is may fail to release. Soft rings made from half inch tubular webbing may work well for the string release to loop through to prevent pinching.
This ain't rocket science. This was within the pay grade of even Dennis and Bill. This is what got Shane Smith extremely predictably killed. This is what's gonna give Davis a lot of the ammunition he needs to sink this thing.

In the photo he's got his three-string mounted on his right shoulder engaging a stupid overlength bridle going through the tow ring and back to a 130 pound Greenspot Tjaden Link (which he undoubtedly picked up from the assholes at the Ridgely flight line) engaged by an idiot bent pin release on his left shoulder.

As shoddy as that configuration is - it will work.

If the right end of the bridle wraps it is a virtual certainty that the Tjaden Link will blow 'cause it's only good for a few pounds more than normal tow tension and it's gonna get a little jolt.

If the Tjaden Link doesn't blow the most you'll hafta pull the Bailey is 21 pounds.

If the Tjaden Link welds itself to the tow ring it doesn't matter. The more load you have on the three-string the harder it is to keep it from NOT blowing.

- If you have the trigger loop in your teeth you'll hafta fight to keep it from pulling free.

- Steve's locking mechanism isn't very good and won't hold much extra tension.

- Even if it doesn't allow the trigger loop to pull free, Steve's locking mechanism doesn't become harder to operate with increasing tension - easier if anything.

- In other words, Steve's three-string doesn't NEED a weak link - Steve's three-string IS a weak link.
This decreases the tow pressure.
Steve, you're a lot smarter than that.
Release loop shown going over chin guard for clarity but I generally run it under the chin guard.
The trigger lines on these things NEED do be routed under the chin guard.
You do not have to release the loop from your teeth first.
That's kinda clueless. If you DO release the loop from your teeth first the tow is OVER. PERIOD. This is NOT an option.
There is tow pressure.
By which he means that with his three-string is transmitting a significant enough portion of the towline tension to the trigger loop as to make things a bit uncomfortable. I told him it needed to be a four-string - especially when you're using a REAL weak link - and he eventually reached the same conclusion himself.
More when shoulder towing.
1.7 times as much.
Yes, you can hold on even when the force is enough to pop the weak link.
Yes, THE weak link. The standard aerotow weak link - in this particular case.
If you adjust the strap length, don't tie the release strap to the tow loop with an overhand knot.
Yeah Steve. You'll recall my reaction to that Overhand Knot before you changed materials, could no longer get away with it, and gave Rooney ammunition for telling all his stupid ass kissing cult members about the horrors of...
...completely untested and very experimental gear which will likely fail in new and unforseen ways as it tries it's damndest to kill you.
I was showing Steve how to tie a Becket Bend shortly after that one.
Yes, I agree that the stitching looks like it was done by a ten year old with ADD but it doesn't seem to matter.
Not until you start using real weak links and testing up to real loads anyway. Oh well, if it fails it's the weak link and you're off tow. Most of the time that's not a serious problem.
It has never happened to me but I don't think I am immune.
You've never needed a parachute either. But both of us personally know more people who needed one of these than needed parachutes. But EVERYBODY we know flies with a parachute and virtually NO ONE we know flies with one of these - thanks to Davis, Rooney, Adam, and the rest off the Flight Park Mafia assholes.
If you are lucky the weak link breaks before the glider reaches a non recoverable attitude.
But let's not forget to mention that the fuckin' Davis Link is about hundred times more likely to drop you at a non recoverable attitude than it is to prevent you from reaching one.
And commit to getting off immediately if you are seriously crooked.
That's advice that can get someone seriously killed if he follows it or - more to the point - some asshole tug driver follows it on his behalf. That's gotta be a case by case decision and the guy on the back end has gotta be the one to make it and he'll know what to do. You just give him the best means of doing it and leave it at that.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://ozreport.com/10.068
Testing the mouth release
Davis Straub - 2006/03/29 23:45:14 UTC

The mouth release releases by itself.

I've had the Squidlinks release on my chest loops for the past two flights. I have not tried holding the string in my mouth yet. I just wanted to see if the release would hold with the clamp over the grommet.

It held just fine on my first flight. Today I had a different experience. I pushed the wood and rubber clamp over the grommet, but just barely over the grommet. At about 600' I suddenly had a large bow in the line. I braced for a broken weaklink. Much to my surprise the weak link didn't break. I counted myself lucky.

At about 800 feet we hit another thermal and with a few bumps suddenly I was off tow with the bridle line coming out from my Squidlinks.

Here's what I think happened. The weaklink didn't break because there was give at the Squidlinks. When the tow rope snapped tight after it bowed, the Squidlinks absorbed the shock by pulling the string out a bit through the grommet. Later when I hit more turbulence, the string in the three string circus in the Squidlink came out the rest of the way.

I'll do more testing, and maybe even try to put the string in my mouth.
Testing the mouth release
Bullshit. You're not TESTING the release - you're FLYING it. You test this stuff on the ground to get numbers and then if the numbers check out you give the release to one of your friends to fly. If they don't check out you give it to some asshole like you. Nobody has ever learned ANYTHING about ANY tow equipment that he couldn't have learned a lot better - and was usually blindingly obvious - on the ground.
The mouth release releases by itself.
Bullshit. It was sabotaged by an asshole who wanted to stifle interest in anything better than the bent pin crap he and his asshole friends have been using to screw over the public for the past decade and a half.
I have not tried holding the string in my mouth yet. I just wanted to see if the release would hold with the clamp over the grommet.
- Hold to what tension? The maximum YOU in your high L:D ratio competition glider HAPPENED to experience on those particular tows? Real useful data, dude.

- Why didn't you just load the configuration up on the ground and see if it held through the failure of the Standard Davis Link that you and all your asshole friends mandate to keep everyone safe?

- If you were gonna do your stupid meaningless flight tests why didn't you just launch with the trigger loop in your teeth and engage the locking mechanism at two hundred feet?

- Idiot.
I pushed the wood and rubber clamp over the grommet, but just barely over the grommet.
Oh. The instructions are to:
grab the barrel and shove it forward vigorously as far as it will go.
But you're just gonna push the wood and rubber clamp just barely over the grommet. Boy, I wonder how this "test" is gonna turn out.

Lemme ask ya something, asshole...

When you put a T2 back together do install the port leading edge / cross spar junction such that the bolt's showing a couple of threads - like it says in the instructions? Or do you just give it light twist with your fingers then take it up for a test flight to see if those Wills Wing guys really built a solid, asshole proof glider?
At about 600 feet I suddenly had a large bow in the line. I braced for a broken weaklink.
- So one of the many functions of a Davis Link is to blow when you take up some slack in the line?

- Why should it break?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24534
It's a wrap
Davis Straub - 2011/07/31 17:55:25

To break under load before the glider does.
- Guess your glider was getting pretty close to the breaking point when that towline went taut, huh?
Much to my surprise the weak link didn't break.
I was always much surprised when one of your idiot fucking Davis Links didn't break before I cleared twenty feet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTKIAvqd7GI

04-2301
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I counted myself lucky.
Oh. The weak link DIDN'T break and you counted yourself LUCKY. Well lemme tell ya something, dickhead...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?
Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 14:04:52 UTC

We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year.
I don't like my status with respect to tow being determined by LUCK and one of your fucking little pieces of fishing line.
At about 800' we hit another thermal and with a few bumps suddenly I was off tow with the bridle line coming out from my Squidlinks.
And...
I pushed the wood and rubber clamp over the grommet, but just barely over the grommet.
...this was a big surprise to you.
Here's what I think happened.
Who gives a rat's ass, sleazeball?
The weaklink didn't break because there was give at the Squidlinks. When the tow rope snapped tight after it bowed, the Squidlinks absorbed the shock by pulling the string out a bit through the grommet. Later when I hit more turbulence, the string in the three string circus in the Squidlink came out the rest of the way.
So what you're saying is that:

- Even though you deliberately sabotaged the "test" by not locking the clamp, the mechanism survived a jolt you expected to blow your Davis Link.

- The only reason you were able to climb another two hundred feet was because the sabotaged mechanism absorbed the jolt of the towline going taut at six hundred feet (which, by the way, is bullshit).

- If you had locked the mechanism properly after the jolt you could've continued to altitude.
I'll do more testing...
MORE testing? I seem to have missed the part where you actually tested anything?
...and maybe even try to put the string in my mouth.
And MAYBE even TRY to put the string in your mouth. You mean like Steve and I have been doing for the past year for every flight? Let's not go totally nuts here.

Asshole.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

Testing the Davis Link

The Davis Link fails six times in a row by itself - WITHOUT being sabotaged.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?
Davis Straub - 2011/08/28 15:26:28 UTC

Then again, Russell Brown had us double up behind him after six breaks in a row at Zapata. We couldn't figure out why we had so many breaks so quickly. Maybe just coincidence.
Maybe just coincidence.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://ozreport.com/10.069
Squidlink testing
Davis Straub - 2006/03/30 22:34:00 UTC

The weaklink breaks and the strings fray

My Squidlink testing ended poorly today when the weaklink attached to the Squidlinks broke while there was nothing but normal pressure on the tow line.
- MY GOD!!! Your Davis Link blew under nothing but NORMAL PRESSURE on the towline!!! What is the problem with this Release From Hell that this Kinsley idiot is trying to foist upon the masses?

- Do you have the slightest fucking clue what NORMAL TOWLINE PRESSURE is? Asshole.

- Do you have the slightest fucking clue what the disintegration point of a Davis Link is? Asshole.

- "The" weak link. That means there's nothing between your idiot fucking bent pin release and the bridle. So if you blow the three-string and the bridle wraps what's limiting the load going to the barrel? (Not - since it's your butt on the line - that I give a rat's ass.)
It just released and I assumed at first that the Squidlink line had come undone as it had on the previous day.
Meaning:

- You still hadn't launched with the trigger loop in your teeth.

- You again just...
...pushed the wood and rubber clamp over the grommet, but just barely over the grommet...
...so you would again be able to report:
The mouth release releases by itself.
and be able to snuff out any residual interest.
I also noticed that one of the lines making up the three line circus is frayed right where it was in contact with the weaklink and ready to break. Looking at where the weaklink broke, it looks like it was cut by the lines in the Squidlink before they broke.
And now you won't be able to take it back up with the recommended (and sane) configuration - with the three string engaging the bridle end and the weak link between the other bridle end and the barrel release - in Steve's photos. How convenient.
Next I'll be testing the mouth release from Russia.
- Yeah Davis, they've been using them over there since the Bronze Age but we need YOU to "test" it because yours is the only voice worth listening to.

- Why bother? There's no way to get those into circulation over here so you don't even hafta sabotage anything to make sure that nobody flies anything any better than the shoddy crap with which you and your fellow douchebags flood the market.
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Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

Steve Kinsley - 2006/04/01 13:22

Demise of the Squidlinks

Davis couldn't get it to work.
Davis wasn't TRYING to get it to work. Davis was trying to get it to fail.
Neither could Marc Fink.
And we want to keep Marc Fink alive... because?
I flew with one the other day and it worked fine. And I flew with a different one before that and it worked fine. Never really had a problem with this iteration. Lots of tows.
Yeah. Go figure.
So I dunno.
Yeah? Well I sure do.
I think people aren't pushing hard enough to lock it.
Do ya think?
Davis Straub - 2006/03/29 23:45:14 UTC

I pushed the wood and rubber clamp over the grommet, but just barely over the grommet.
Are you asking yourself WHY people aren't pushing hard enough to lock it?
Replace "slide barrel forward" with "jam keeper over grommet".
You've already said:
grab the barrel and shove it forward vigorously as far as it will go.
You don't think that was clear enough? You don't think that a chimp who wanted to make this thing work properly couldn't figure that out on his own in about two seconds anyway?
But I would hate for problems with a particular type of mouth release to get in the way of the adoption of the concept.
There ARE NO significant problems with this particular type of release. The only things getting in the way of the adoption of the concept are Davis, Ridgely, and the rest of the Flight Park Mafia scum.
So I suggest you abandon the Squidlinks and use Tad's.
Their not gonna use yours, Tad's variation, the Russian job, or anything other than the bent pin shit that Davis, Ridgely, and the rest of the Flight Park Mafia scum punch out and sell.
I will still make Squidlinks for you if you want but there are clearly problems.
Yeah. But not with the device - just with the economics and politics.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

Tad Eareckson - 2006/04/01 13:09

data collection

Could you forward any relevant correspondence from Davis and Marc?
Steve Kinsley - 2006/04/01 22:07:51

I don't really have anything other than the OZ report and a phone call from Marc. Marc said it did not lock; that he could not make it lock. But I flew with it and it locked fine. So whatdafuckswidat?

Davis apparently could not get his to lock either. Did not fly the one I sent Davis but I static tested it and it locked. Also, he put a weaklink on the squid side, which I normally don't do, and said that it cut the loop. But it never cut the loop when I did that. This afternoon I set it up with a weak link through the loop and loaded it up until the weak link broke. Could not find a mark on the loop.

Weirdness. Oh well. It works fine for me. Got a few out there and am going to do barrel pushing 101 with them before they get on the cart.
Steve Kinsley - 2006/04/02 21:09:01

more squid

fyi. My premature release on the first tow was a weak link failure on the barrel release side -- had nothing to do with the squid.
Yeah. It was the Davis Link that caused the premature separation, your mechanism did fine, but your mechanism took the rap anyway.
More I think about it the more I think these things work fine.
And yet, here we are, half a dozen years later, and we can count the number of these things in circulation on one hand. And we've got a couple more people killed who would've probably been OK had they been equipped with one.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27016
Scammer trying something on Oz Report Classified Ads
Marc Fink - 2012/03/21 16:06:41 UTC

Missing in this conversation is why on earth would you sell gliders to someone of unknown abilities and qualifications? I've never sold a glider to anyone I didn't meet face-to-face, but that's just me.
Yeah Marc...
Luen Miller - 1994/09

1994/05/18 - Greg Lemieux - 36 - Hang IV - WW Super Sport 143 - Henson Gap, Dunlap, Tennessee
- "In and out of hang gliding for twenty years," 714 flights, about 100 hours total airtime, 13 hours on his new glider
- Downwind crash on approach to landing - Fatal: head, neck

An experienced but inconsistent pilot flying a new, higher performance recreational glider launched into strong winds. He seemed to be flying well, but was unable to do much except park in the wind above launch. He flew toward the landing zone and began his approach by passing downwind of a "soarable" hill on the upwind end of the LZ. He may have begun his descent in rotor or turbulence. An eyewitness said, "I looked up and he was halfway rotated up [to the downtubes] and oscillating from too much speed. He was flying very fast and over-controlling the glider as if he had not flown it that much at high speeds." While trying to turn from his downwind to his base leg, the glider was seen in a steep, fast, downwind dive. The glider's nose, corner brackets, and pilot all impacted simultaneously.
It's OK to sell a glider to a guy who's gonna go out and kill himself on it - as long as you've met him face to face first.

Any thoughts on selling to people who...
Marc Fink - 1998/04/29 08:33

I ran aggresively, and when I was going very fast I leaned forward to prone out while gently easing out on the basetube. I remember thinking for a split second how unusual it was that I was sinking fast towards the ground, despite the tremendous speed I had. The next second was something of a blur, as my harness finally contacted the ground and I perfomed a full sumersault into the rocks and bushes below launch. I heard a bang and some crunching, and my first thought was I had blown my launch when my gider contacted the ground.
...never do hook-in checks?

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=4046
Accident Report
Doug Koch - 2007/10/20 15:42:57 UTC
Las Vegas

The impact broke both legs at the ankles and drove his shin bones out the bottom of his feet six inches.
How 'bout you, Sparky?
miguel
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Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by miguel »

Image

Most pilots learn by running, launching, flying on the downtubes and landing on their feet.

Not really that hard.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by Tad Eareckson »

- Virtually all aerotow "pilots" learn to fly with bent pin backup releases and 130 pound Greenspot pitch and lockout limiters. What's your point?
Doug Hildreth - 1990/03

We all know that our new gliders are more difficult to land. We have been willing to accept this with the rationalization that it is the unavoidable consequence of higher performance. But I see my job as a responsibility to challenge acceptance and rationalization. From my perspective, what I see in the landing zone and what I see in the statistics column is not acceptable. Crashes on landing are causing too many bent downtubes, too many minor injuries, and too many seriously or fatally injured pilots.

So what are we going to do? One reply is, "We should teach all those bozos how to land properly." Well, we've been trying that approach for the past few years and it has NOT worked!
Gil Dodgen - 1995/01

All of this reminds me of a comment Mike Meier made when he was learning to fly sailplanes. He mentioned how easy it was to land a sailplane (with spoilers for glide-path control and wheels), and then said, "If other aircraft were as difficult to land as hang gliders no one would fly them."
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25536
Whoops! Snapped another tip wand :-O
NMERider - 2012/03/14 15:17:14 UTC

Landing clinics don't help in real world XC flying. I have had the wind do 180 degree 15 mph switches during my final legs. What landing clinic have you ever attended that's going to help? I saved that one by running like a motherfukker. And BTW - It was on large rocks on an ungroomed surface.

When I come in on many of these flights with sloppy landings, I am often physically and mentally exhausted. That means fatigued to the max. Many times I can't even lift my glider and harness, I'm so pooped.

This is the price of flying real XC. I have seen many a great pilot come in an land on record-setting flights and they literally just fly into the ground and pound in. I kid you not.

None of this is any excuse mind you. There has to be a methodology for preparing to land safely and cleanly while exhausted. This is NOT something I have worked on.

Jim Rooney threw a big tantrum and stopped posting here.

His one-technique-fits-all attitude espoused on the Oz Report Forum has become tiresome to read. It does not work in the fucked-up world of XC landings and weary pilots.

I refuse to come in with both hands on the downtubes ever again. I have had some very powerful thermals and gusts kick off and lost control of the glider due to hands on the downtubes. I prefer both hands on the control bar all the way until trim and ground effect. I have been lifted right off the deck in the desert and carried over 150 yards.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22176
Paragliding Collapses
Jim Rooney - 2011/06/12 13:57:58 UTC

Most common HG injury... spiral fracture of the humerus.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15383
A pilots account of his crash
http://vallecrash.blogspot.com/
Zack C - 2009/03/07

I ended up with nearly identical fractures to both humeri (upper arms) but no radial nerve damage (allowing full use of my fingers).

Both arms were splinted (soft casts) in Mexico City. I was told by the orthopedic surgeon there that normally a fracture of this type would be treated conservatively (i.e., casts sans surgery), but since both arms were broken, he felt surgery was necessary on at least one arm as otherwise I would be severely impaired for the ten week or so period it would take the bones to heal (they would take just as long with surgery, but I would have much more motion in the meantime).
Christian Thoreson - 2004/10

Thus wheel landings, the safest and easiest way to consistently land a hang glider...
- It bloody well really IS that hard - and anyone who says different is totally full of shit and seriously detached from reality.

- But, fear not, I'm not seeing many serious cracks yet starting in any of our lunatic sacred traditions.
miguel
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Re: instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

Post by miguel »

Tad Eareckson wrote:- Virtually all aerotow "pilots" learn to fly with bent pin backup releases and 130 pound Greenspot pitch and lockout limiters. What's your point?
Image

What is yours?
Tad Eareckson opines wrote: Most common HG injury... spiral fracture of the humerus.
Zack C - 2009/03/07

I ended up with nearly identical fractures to both humeri (upper arms) but no radial nerve damage (allowing full use of my fingers).

Both arms were splinted (soft casts) in Mexico City. I was told by the orthopedic surgeon there that normally a fracture of this type would be treated conservatively (i.e., casts sans surgery), but since both arms were broken, he felt surgery was necessary on at least one arm as otherwise I would be severely impaired for the ten week or so period it would take the bones to heal (they would take just as long with surgery, but I would have much more motion in the meantime).
Let go of the control bar, and rollup into a ball. Hugging the downtube is an optiion but it guarantees a broken down tube.

I watched a long time hot pilot for whom this was his preferred landing technique. It was very ugly. He flew the glider to roundout, then rolled up into a ball. The glider would impact with a large bang. When the dust cleared, he would get up grinning. The downtubes were not even bent. I did not believe this was possible, so I closely inspected the glider. No damage. He did this on every landing.

It works.
Tad Eareckson wrote:Thus wheel landings, the safest and easiest way to consistently land a hang glider...
- It bloody well really IS that hard - and anyone who says different is totally full of shit and seriously detached from reality.
Tad, you can land whatever way works for you. I will land whatever way works for me. Again, foot landing is not that difficult especially if you are taught from day 1.
Tad Eareckson wrote:- But, fear not, I'm not seeing many serious cracks yet starting in any of our lunatic sacred traditions.
Maybe a change of approach might affect more change.
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