- You design the gliders, specify the operating limitations, and write the owners' manuals with extensive sections on how to land them.
- You determine what schools will qualify as Wills Wing Hang Glider dealerships and...
The responsibilities of a Wills Wing HANG GLIDER DEALER include:
A) Offering competent, safe instruction in the proper and safe use of hang gliding equipment.
...the responsibilities of a Wills Wing HANG GLIDER DEALER include offering competent, safe instruction in the proper and safe use of hang gliding equipment.
- So who the fuck else should be presuming how to teach others how to land your gliders?
- The programs of the Wills Wing Hang Glider dealerships which ARE presuming to teach others how to land have been...
So after coming out to trim and moving my hands in position to flare she yells, as my wings are level at this time. So, I start to do it. I got my hands up but hadn't completely locked my elbows, when I zoomed!
When I realized how high I was (it looked like I went up about ten feet) I freaked out and couldn't finish the flare. I held what I had and floated down a couple of feet, when a big gust blew me even father to the left, which then caused the wind to be at my back.
I nosed into the ground very hard. My helmet was knocked off of my head as I was going down. Thankfully I had the presence of mind to not hold on the downtubes or I might have two broken arms, or dislocated shoulders at least.
It scared me soooo bad that on Sunday all I could do on the hill was cry, because the thought of running down the hill even scared me.
...unmitigated fucking disasters. And the sane technique which you use (which, by the way, contradicts what you describe and illustrate in your owners' manuals) is about the only reasonably sane method of stopping a glider on your feet with the goal of being able to fly it again next weekend.
How come you're not presuming to teach people how to make sure they're connected to their gliders just before they run off the ramp?
Wills Wing - 2007/02
Launching and Flying the T2
Before launching, hook in to the glider and do a careful hang check.
Rob Kells - 2005/12
Always lift the glider vertically and feel the tug on the leg straps when the harness mains go tight, just before you start your launch run. I always use this test.
My partners (Steve Pearson and Mike Meier) and I have over 25,000 hang glider flights between us and have managed (so far) to have hooked in every time. I also spoke with test pilots Ken Howells and Peter Swanson about their methods (another 5000 flights).
Not one of us regularly uses either of the two most popular methods outlined above. Each of us agrees that it is not a particular method, but rather the fear of launching unhooked that makes us diligent to be sure we are hooked in every time before starting the launch run.
How come you're telling your customers to do one thing while you and your buddies are doing something else that's about ten thousand times less likely to get you killed? How come you're telling your customers to use a method designed to TOTALLY EXTINGUISH THE FEAR OF LAUNCHING UNHOOKED EVERY TIME BEFORE STARTING THE LAUNCH RUN?
How come you're not presuming to teach people...
Wills Wing
Always use an appropriate weak link...
...what an appropriate weak link is for a particular glider?
Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974
"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson
You don't have any problem presuming to tell them exactly where the trim point is for aerotowing all your particular gliders two point. Is this weak link thing just way too far over your pay grade?
We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year.
How good a job do you think all your scumbag dealerships are doing on this issue?
I think you need to be doing a helluva lot more presuming to teach people how to fucking run this airline and a helluva lot less buck passing.
Jim and I casually know each other, and some who regularly read this forum may recall that I frequently complement his opinions and achievements, as he is one of several here that I sincerely hold in high regard in terms of knowledge, intelligence, integrity and skill. But, still, it is not at all uncommon or surprising for many to not realize that.
In the old threads there was a lot of info from a guy named Tad. Tad had a very strong opinion on weak link strength and it was a lot higher than most folks care for. I'd focus carefully on what folks who tow a lot have to say. Or Jim Rooney who is an excellent tug pilot. I tow with the "park provided" weak links. I think they are 130 pound Greenspot.
Enjoy your posts, as always, and find your comments solid, based on hundreds of hours / tows of experience and backed up by a keen intellect/knowledge of the issues when it comes to most things in general and hang gliding AT/Towing in particular. Wanted to go on record in case anyone reading wanted to know one persons comments they should give weight to.
More Details on Equipment:
V-Bridle/Release System
But with the towline we use a standard weak link like we would for aerotow... Uh... This... In this particular case it's 130 greenline, 130 pound test.
We also use safety devices like this secondary barrel release that we'd see in aerotowing. As a beginner they don't need to use that but as they get high enough where they could possibly overfly some things... uh... with some... uh... with some problems we want a secondary release in the system and we want to teach them good habits from the start with that system so we'll use that.
Steve obviously doesn't have his shit totally together...
Wills Wing / Blue Sky / Steve Wendt / Ryan Voight Productions - 2007/03
Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.
It's more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.
...but with the standard aerotow weak link...
Steve Wendt - 2007/03
But with the towline we use a standard weak link like we would for aerotow... Uh... This... In this particular case it's 130 greenline, 130 pound test.
Yeah, damn those pesky safety devices!
Remember kids, always blame the equipment.
...it doesn't really matter much if your instructor is a bit out of step with the consensus in one area or another.
Anyway...
We definitely wanna keep this game under the control of...
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 04:55:25 UTC
It always amazes to hear know it all pilots arguing with the professional pilots.
I mean seriously, this is our job.
We do more tows in a day than they do in a month (year for most).
We *might* have an idea of how this stuff works.
They *might* do well to listen.
Not that they will, mind you... cuz they *know*.
I mean seriously... ridgerodent's going to inform me as to what Kroop has to say on this? Seriously? Steve's a good friend of mine. I've worked at Quest with him. We've had this discussion ... IN PERSON. And many other ones that get misunderstood by the general public. It's laughable.
Don't even get me started on Tad. That obnoxious blow hard has gotten himself banned from every flying site that he used to visit... he doesn't fly anymore... because he has no where to fly. His theories were annoying at best and downright dangerous most of the time. Good riddance.
So, argue all you like.
I don't care.
I've been through all these arguments a million times... this is my job.
I could be more political about it, but screw it... I'm not in the mood to put up with tender sensibilities... Some weekend warrior isn't about to inform me about jack sh*t when it comes to towing. I've got thousands upon thousands of tows under my belt. I don't know everything, but I'll wager the house that I've got it sussed a bit better than an armchair warrior.
...professional pilots who really have this game sussed out. Otherwise we'll just start getting bogged down with...
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 06:04:23 UTC
Please understand that I'm not advocating professional infalliblity. Not really sure where I mentioned that, but I can understand where you might have drawn that assumption. None the less, I simply refer to "us" as the "professional pilots" as a term to describe the pilots that do this for a living. Yes, we're just humans... bla bla bla... my point is that we do this a whole sh*tload more than the "average pilot"... and not just a little more... a LOT.
We discuss this stuff a lot more as well. We vet more ideas. This isn't just "neat stuff" to us... it's very real and we deal with it every day.
It's not "us" that has the track record... it's our process.
We're people just like anyone else. And that's the point. THIS is how we do it... normal, fallible humans... and it bloody well works.
So I don't give much credence to something that someone doesn't agree with about what we do for some theoretical reason.
Take this weaklink nonsense.
What do I "advocate"?
I don't advocate shit... I *USE* 130 test lb, greenspun cortland braided fishing line.
It is industry standard.
It is what *WE* use.
If someone's got a problem with it... we've got over ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND TANDEM TOWS and COUNTLESS solo tows that argue otherwise. So they can politely get stuffed.
As my friend likes to say... "Sure, it works in reality... but does it work in theory?"
Hahahahhaa... I like that one a lot
...a shitload of tedious, useless, aeronautical theory from a bunch of...
Steve Davy - 2011/08/31 10:11:32 UTC
Zack figured it out. Well done Zack! Enjoy your vacation.
Kinsley Sykes - 2011/08/31 11:35:36 UTC
Well actually he didn't. But if you don't want to listen to the folks that actually know what they are talking about, go ahead.
Feel free to go the the tow park that Tad runs...
...tedious, useless, armchair warrior eggheads.
Lemme tell ya sumpin', Rob...
There ARE NO qualified aerotow instructors out there. If there were and this sport knew what the fuck it was talking about you wouldn't have all these total assholes drooling all over other total assholes and valuing their idiot opinions. This game is pretty simple and if we had safe equipment nobody would be deifying any of these quacks and having hundreds of stupid discussions about releases and weak links.
You don't have truck towers being deified because the issues are simple and well enough understood and you don't have raging controversies about equipment because the equipment is good enough to do the job reasonably safely.
Aerotowing is dangerous because it has no solid theory at its foundation and the equipment that the assholes who you've empowered to run this show have illegally and with the most grotesquely callous disregard for the safety of the pilot put into circulation is total crap.
The list below will give you a good starting point for attaching an upper aerotow release to our current production gliders. There are a number of other factors that may cause you to want to move it slightly forward or aft of the starting point.
Release point
The primary factors that determine where the tow point needs to be are: the tow speed of the tug, the glider's aspect ratio, the pitch bar pressure at tow speeds, the glider's top speed, trim speed, and the pilot's weight. The proper placement of the tow point will trim the glider with light but positive pitch pressure while under tow.
What does taking a hand off the basetube to try to hit a Quallaby release lever...
When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less)...
...do to the trim of the glider?
VG Setting
All Wills Wing gliders equipped with VG are easiest to tow with the VG set to one half. This reduces the glider's pitch bar pressure, while at the same time damping the roll response to reduce the chance of oscillations on tow. Pilots at the light end of the recommended weight range may want to set the VG at one third on.
Vertical Stabilizers
All gliders are easier to tow when a vertical stabilizer is added to the rear keel. This provides significantly better directional stability and vastly reduces the chance of oscillations.
Tow Bridles and Releases
These tow point positions assume the use of two spliced Spectra ropes to attach to the tow line. One is attached to a shoulder tow point on the harness with a weak link, and then is routed through a spliced loop in a second longer Spectra rope, and attached to the other shoulder via a back-up release.
01. Here's what the REGULATION says:
The United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association, Inc.
Standard Operating Procedure
12. Rating System
02. Pilot Proficiency System
12. Hang Gliding Aerotow Ratings
-C. Aero Vehicle Requirements
05. A weak link must be placed at both ends of the tow line.
So if the first thing you're gonna tell us to do is violate it you better know what the fuck you're doing and talking about so we can violate it right.
- What happens to your weak link protection if the weak link on one of your shoulder tow points on the harness blows and the shorter Spectra rope...
Oh it happens.
I have, all the guys I work with have.
(Our average is 1 in 1,000 tows)
Oh yeah... an other fun fact for ya... ya know when it's far more likely to happen? During a lockout. When we're doing lockout training, the odds go from 1 in 1,000 to over 50/50.
...doesn't quite clear the spliced loop in the bottom of the longer Spectra rope?
- What are we using for a weak link?
Steve Wendt - 2007/03
But with the towline we use a standard weak link like we would for aerotow... Uh... This... In this particular case it's 130 greenline, 130 pound test.
04. Why?
- Should it be one size fits all like you say in your scooter tow training video?
- Or should it bear some relation to the flying weight of the glider like it says in the reference suggested for use with your scooter towing training manual?
- Or should it be based on the load capacity of the glider...
Tost Flugzeuggerätebau
Weak links protect your aircraft against overloading.
...the way it is in REAL aviation?
- Is the weak link which improves the safety of the towing operation for one point the same as it is for two?
- Do we get to hear anything about Gs? Just kidding.
- Why do we need a BACKUP release?
- What should we use for a backup release?
- If our qualified aerotow instructor is too fucking stupid to be able to equip us with a bulletproof primary release...
Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC
When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less), but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it.
...why should we expect the backup release...
The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.
Anyhow, the tandem can indeed perform big wingovers, as I demonstrated when I finally got separated from the tug.
...to work any better?
- Why not have backup releases and weak links on BOTH shoulders?
- What the hell do you have in the way of qualifications to advise us on anything about the configuration other than the trim point? I'm seeing no evidence of anything whatsoever.
The longer rope is then routed through the tow ring and attached to the upper release with a proper weak link.
What the fuck do you mean by a PROPER weak link? You're doing EXACTLY what Steve Wendt does when he says:
In this particular case...
You're implying that these things are scaled to the gliders. And you know goddam bloody well that 99.999 percent of all solo aerotow flights are launched with single loops of 130 pound Greenspot. You're flat out LYING to us.
The assumed tow speed is 32 miles per hour. Some trikes tow at significantly higher speeds. The higher the tow speed, the further forward the top release must be positioned to trim away pitch pressure. Under no circumstances should you attempt to aerotow behind a tug which has a tow speed that is near the steady state maximum top speed of your glider!
So we probably shouldn't tow behind a Cessna 152. Good to know. Everybody make a note of that in case your qualified aerotow instructor misses it during the intro.
We do not recommend releasing from the bottom release point on your shoulders when using a V-bridle.
Oh. You don't RECOMMEND it. But we can do it anyway if we feel like it? Not really that big a fucking deal?
If the bridle or weak link gets caught on the tow rope ring...
- What weak link? There's no weak link on the bottom end of the primary bridle - just a spliced loop. (With no thimble 'cause why would anyone in hang gliding wanna do things right?)
- Why would anyone with brains bigger than the walnut jobs Paul and Lauren use install a weak link long enough for there to be the remotest possibility of a weak link tying itself to the tow ring?
...after releasing at the shoulders, and the glider is being pulled only from the top point, it may become unstable in pitch on tow.
- It MAY become unstable in pitch on tow.
Mike Lake - 2011/03/08 23:50:59 UTC
Glider scrap.
Poor fellow, a vegetable for a while then spent the rest of his life as someone else.
Once again history has shown us that this thread-through system can hook up and the hang glider remains being towed by the keel only, with the bridle well out of reach of even a hook knife. I know of just one pilot to survive this type of hookup, took him some twelve months to walk again though.
Not really sure about this issue but probably not a good idea to just tow from the keel.
- Unstable in pitch? So it could pitch up, could pitch down - who's to say? Need more data.
Rob, I never thought I'd hear myself say this but... Get fucked.
Use the bottom back up release only if you have a top release failure.
In that case there's hardly any possibility of the bridle getting caught on the tow rope ring...
DaveB - 2009/11/03 01:15:45 UTC
Fort Collins
While we were not using a "Pro Tow" setup, on my very first AT lesson, the bridle from an upper Lookout Mountain style release promptly wrapped itself around the towline 'binner prompting an even quicker secondary shoulder release by my instructor.
In fact, in three weekends of crack of dawn lessons and then ground crewing for the day for the rest of the pilots, the incidence of an upper bridle line tangling in the AT 'biner seemed almost one in twenty-five to thirty.
...and, anyway, the worst that could happen would be that the glider might become a bit unstable in pitch. Might nose down a bit, might have a tendency to stall. Nothing you shouldn't be able to handle though.
Towing from only the shoulder attachments without a top release is generally referred to as "Pro tow".
Yeah. That way people can delude themselves and others into believing that this is a safe configuration for people with top notch flying skills.
The Sport 2, U2s, and Talons may be "Pro towed" without a top release...
Dennis Pagen - 2005/01
By the time we gained about sixty feet I could no longer hold the glider centered - I was probably at a twenty degree bank - so I quickly released before the lockout to the side progressed. The glider instantly whipped to the side in a wingover maneuver.
If you're feeling lucky.
...however this method is not as easy as using a two point release as described above. Towing without a top release will cause the base tube to be positioned much further back during tow, the glider will have increased pitch pressure, and lockouts are much more difficult to correct.
Lockouts CAN'T be corrected, dude. That's why they're called LOCKOUTS. If the lockout is severe and low enough, it can't even be survived. So don't be feeding us this bullshit about correcting lockouts and downplaying the dangers of this game. Do your fuckin' job and give us the equipment we need to best deal with them instead of that Wallaby / Bailey shit you hand out for people to fly at all your demos.
We find that the easiest way to secure the top release to the keel is to use a piece of spectra or perlon line.
- Who's "we"?
- How many ways have you tried?
- Why is this something we need to secure? Why aren't you doing the job right and building them into your fucking gliders?
- Spectra OR Perlon? Use either the lowest or highest stretch line on the planet? Doesn't make any difference?
Start by making a loop around the keel and secure it with an overhand knot and safety half hitch in the desired location. Tie the other end of the line around the king post base secured with a bowline knot and safety half hitch, making sure that the forward loop will position the top release in the desired location.
What if there's no kingpost? Why aren't you doing the job right and building these things into your fucking gliders?
Use a rapid link to attach the top release webbing to the line.
What release? Any piece of crap any of your dealerships feels like calling a release and telling everybody how great it is regardless of the number of people it's killed?
This will make it easy to remove the release.
Why is an aerotow release something that needs to removed? Isn't it an important enough element of the glider's control system to build in? Do sailplane releases get quick linked and velcroed on and off the planes before and after flying?
Always use an appropriate weak link...
Get fucked.
- When you tell people to use an "appropriate" weak link you are, in fact, telling them...
Wills Wing / Blue Sky / Steve Wendt / Ryan Voight Productions - 2007/03
Wills Wing Scooter Tow Video - 2007/03
But with the towline we use a standard weak link like we would for aerotow... Uh... This... In this particular case it's 130 greenline, 130 pound test.
...to use an EXTREMELY INAPPROPRIATE weak link.
- Inappropriate weak links are about a thousand times more dangerous than no weak link at all.
- Just like an EXTREMELY STUPID means of verifying your connection to your glider before launch...
Wills Wing - 2007/02
Launching and Flying the T2
Before launching, hook in to the glider and do a careful hang check.
Rob Kells - 2005/12
Several pilots have launched unhooked after doing a hang check because they were distracted and unhooked from the glider, and then, remembering having done a hang check earlier, they ran off the hill unhooked.
What's more, I believe that all hooked-in checks prior to the last one before takeoff are a waste of time, not to say dangerous, because they build a sense of security which should not be built more than one instant before commitment to flight.
...is probably the single best shot you have of killing yourself in this sport.
- Just like having a total shithead...
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 02:44:10 UTC
The "purpose" of a weaklink is to increase the safety of the towing operation. PERIOD.
...as a qualified aerotow instructor is ten thousand times worse than having no qualified aerotow instructor at all.
- So figure out what the hell you're talking about before you start telling other people what they should be doing.
...with a finished length of 1.5 inches or less.
Oh. 1.5 is the magic number at which a weak link is incapable of tying itself to anything. If it blows you double that figure. I got news for ya, Rob...
You show me a release that requires a one and a half inch weak link protrusion. The spinnaker shackle's the worst of the lot and twenty millimeters - a little over a quarter of your magic number - is plenty. And the more you add the more trouble you're asking for.
Longer weak links are more likely to get tangled on the tow ring upon release.
- And shorter weak links are LESS likely to get tangled on the tow ring upon release.
- And weak links NOT installed by total idiots are PHYSICALLY INCAPABLE of getting tangled on the tow ring upon release.
Carry a hook knife when towing.
Yeah.
- That way you can fly with whatever crap you feel like, pull a Lauren, and pretend that you're gonna be OK 'cause YOU'VE GOT A HOOK KNIFE!
- You name me ONE SINGLE INSTANCE of a hook knife every being of any use whatsoever in an aerotow - other than cutting the hang loop to separate whatever's left of the pilot from the wreckage.
MODEL
- TOP RELEASE LOCATION
Falcon 140, 170, 195
- On keel, just below cross bar
Falcon 225
- On keel, 3 inches in front of cross bar
Falcon Tandem
- On keel, just behind the rear of the front keel pocket
Eagle 145, 164, 180
- On keel, 14 inches forward of back of bottom surface zipper. (Must leave bottom surface unzipped 14 inches.)
Why don't you install a couple of extra zipper pulls so we can do the job right and not hafta fly around with the undersurface half unzipped and flapping in the breeze for the rest of the afternoon?
Sport 2 135, 155
- On keel, at back of bottom surface zipper - Set VG to 1/2
U2 145, 160
- On pilot's hang loop or carabiner - Set VG to 1/2
Talon 140, 150, 160
- On pilot's hang loop or carabiner - Set VG to 1/2
Note: The higher the top tow point the better. If the glider is equipped with a DHV (longer than Wills Wing standard length by eight inches) it is better to tie the release to the keel rather than attach it to the hang loop.
And I guess it would've also been way too much goddam trouble to have modified or amended your hardware so we could've had a solid built in anchor point instead of having to tie some Spectra or Perlon with a bowline around a kingpost or whatever we can find that works.
The T2 aerotows fairly easily compared to other gliders in its performance class. We recommend that the VG be set to fifty percent prior to launch. This reduces pitch pressures, slows the roll response of the glider, and provides the best qualitative flight characteristics for flying in formation with the tug at normal aerotow speeds.
The control bar on the T2 is taller than on most other gliders. Ground launch carts designed for the average glider will, when used with the T2, usually put the glider at a higher angle of attack on the cart than is optimum.
What happens when you put a glider that's heavier than most other gliders on a standard aerotow weak link allegedly designed for the average glider? Would there be any downsides to that approach?
If possible, it is best to adjust the keel cradle on the cart to reset the glider to the proper angle of attack.
What IS the proper angle of attack? Ya gonna tell us or is that beyond the scope of this text? You tell us seven degrees pitch for platform liftoff but there's no keel support to clear in platform.
If it is not possible to readjust the cart...
To something - we're not sure what - over seven degrees...
...recognize the launch will be more demanding, and more dangerous, as the glider will have an increased tendency to leave the cart at a lower speed, where lateral control is reduced, and the tendency to come off the cart with one wing low is increased.
Bullshit.
It's - fer sure - a good idea to set the pitch properly before hooking up to minimize any trouble from crosswinds, thermals, gusts while you're accelerating.
BUT...
- Nobody leaves the cart with the keel still supported by the bracket. The glider pitches down to trim - along with whatever you're doing to the basetube - at some point in the acceleration. And at that point the keel bracket setting becomes totally one hundred percent irrelevant.
- You can hold the glider onto the cart as long as you need to and - as long as you're not using shit equipment - abort the tow any time you feel like it. Nobody's holding a gun to your head forcing you to fly.
To some degree, this can be compensated for by pulling forward through the control bar to position the basetube below your shoulders, and holding tight to the hold down rope. This will cause the glider to raise the keel as it begins to develop enough lift to lift out of the cart. At that point, and not before that point, you can release the rope and ease your weight aft to fly the glider off of the cart. Be prepared to pull in once clear of the cart if necessary so as not to climb more quickly than the tug.
Except for having to use more effort pulling in during the initial few seconds of roll - how does this differ from ANY aerotow launch?
Once clear of the cart and in position behind the tug, use firm lateral movements of short duration for roll and directional control in order to stay in position behind the tug.
The Wallaby Ranch Aerotowing Primer for Experienced Pilots - 2012/04/09
If you fail to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon), the weak link will break before you can get into too much trouble.
It's really not that big of a fucking deal if you don't - as long as you're using a standard aerotow weak link and especially if you're flying a heavier glider.
Do not move to one side of the bar and wait for the glider to respond - this will lead to over control and being out of position, and may lead to roll / yaw oscillations.
Approximately ten emergency vehicles were parked all over the runway.
The EMTs were carrying a (presumed) pilot out from under the wreckage of a hang glider next to the runway. They loaded the victim/stretcher into an ambulance, but didn't drive away. Stayed parked on the runway for at least a half an hour. I don't yet know what the outcome was.
Later heard that he was evacuated by helicopter because of a head injury.
USHGA Accident Report Summary
Pilot: Holly Korzilius
Reporter: Steve Wendt, USHGA Instructor # 19528
Date : 5/29/05
Holly immediately had control problems right off the dolly and completed 3 oscilations before it took her 90 degrees from the tow vehicle upon when the tug pilot hit the release and Holly continued turning away from the tow in a fairly violent exchange of force . Holly pulled in to have control speed and then began rounding out , but there was not enough altitude and she hit the ground before she could do so. She was barely 100 feet when she was locked out in a left hand turn. At that time, she was banked up over 60 degrees.
The basebar hit the ground first, nose wires failed from the impact, and at the same time she was hitting face first.
...that the oscillations themselves can lead to?
- Especially when the tug pilot makes a good decision in the interest of your safety?
- And you're absolutely positive that moving to one side of the bar and staying there is always gonna be a bad idea?
- Yeah, probably. Let's assume that everything's going reasonably OK. Wouldn't wanna get anybody too upset for no reason.
It is better to "bump" the glider firmly in the direction of the desired correction and then return to center. If you need more correction, bump again.
If you're still alive at that point.
In pitch, stay on top of the situation and be as aggressive as necessary to keep the tug on the horizon.
And, of course, as long as we're making bump corrections firmly...
Blue Sky Scooter Towing Method
Equipment & Practices
By Steve Wendt and Mike Meier
Copyright March 2007 by Sport Kites, Inc. dba Wills Wing, Inc.
Dennis Pagen informed me several years ago about an aerotow lockout that he experienced. One moment he was correcting a bit of alignment with the tug and the next moment he was nearly upside down. He was stunned at the rapidity. I have heard similar stories from two other aerotow pilots.
...and staying on the pitch situation as aggressively as necessary...
Dennis Pagen - 2005/01
Soon after liftoff the trike tug and I were hit by the mother of all thermals. Since I was much lighter, I rocketed up well above the tug, while the very experienced tug pilot, Neal Harris, said he was also lifted more than he had ever been in his heavy trike.
I pulled in all the way, but could see that I wasn't going to come down unless something changed. I hung on and resisted the tendency to roll to the side with as strong a roll input as I could, given that the bar was at my knees. I didn't want to release, because I was so close to the ground and I knew that the glider would be in a compromised attitude. In addition, there were hangars and trees on the left, which is the way the glider was tending.
By the time we gained about sixty feet I could no longer hold the glider centered - I was probably at a twenty degree bank - so I quickly released before the lockout to the side progressed. The glider instantly whipped to the side in a wingover maneuver.
...we'll be just fine.
So... I guess that's all we need to cover on aerotowing in the T2 owner's manual.
Three paragraphs...
- Fifty-five words telling us to set the VG half on.
- Two hundred and twenty words telling us to set the angle of attack properly - whatever that is - and how to lift off.
- A hundred and fourteen words on how to try to keep the glider under some kind of control during the skim and climb-out.
Not a single word on:
- how to best crash when the standard aerotow weak link blows for no reason two seconds after liftoff
- what happens when the glider can't be kept under control and the Wallaby lever on the downtube or Bailey barrel on the shoulder doesn't seem to be quite as easily accessible and operable as it was during the check on the cart or the phony lockout drill in smooth air at fifteen hundred feet
Fuck you guys.
Landing the T2
Whichever method you use, there are a few important principles to observe.
The first is that you should not make any change in hand position unless you are flying at or very near trim speed. At speeds faster than trim, you will be holding the bar in pitch against substantial force, and if you let go to move your hand the glider will pitch up and roll towards your remaining hand.
The second is that while moving either hand, you have no control over the glider. You should move only one hand at a time. Even so, if you can't make the transition in the position of each hand quickly and reliably, you should transition both hands while at altitude, before you start your approach. Otherwise, if you fail to make a quick transition, you could be out of control close to the ground, and suffer a turbulence induced change in heading or attitude without sufficient time to recover.
Many pilots make the mistake of trying to change position while flying fast and close to the ground, and experience a dangerous loss of control as a result.
- So you've never heard of a lockout before.
- You tell us that in a landing...
- We shouldn't make any change in hand position unless we're flying at or very near trim speed.
- At speeds faster than trim, we'll be holding the bar in pitch against substantial force and if we let go to move our hand the glider will pitch up and roll towards our remaining hand.
- While moving either hand we have no control over the glider.
- Even if we're in good shape initially, if a hand comes off at the wrong time we can get kicked around in turbulence and crashed.
- And when we're pulled in just off the cart in thermal conditions, tied to a Dragonfly, and maybe needing to release in order to have a halfway decent chance of survival none of these sorts of issues is worth mentioning.
- And don't give me any bullshit about you not being aware of the lockout issue 'cause you tell us to "always use an APPROPRIATE weak link" and a weak link is ONLY of any possible value after a situation has totally gone to hell.
- NOWHERE in ANY of your owner's manuals or in Rob's article "Aerotow Release Attachment Points for Wills Wing Gliders" do you even MENTION either a release mechanism or an actuation system.
- NOWHERE in ANY of your owner's manuals or in Rob's article "Aerotow Release Attachment Points for Wills Wing Gliders" do you mention ANYTHING about "an APPROPRIATE weak link" - purpose, flying weight, glider capacity, pounds, Gs... NADA.
- The ONLY place that ANYTHING appears in ANY official Wills Wing material is your Steve Wendt scooter tow bullshit in which you reference Wallaby and Bailey releases and 130 pound test greenline standard aerotow weak links - all of which is proven lethal crap.
- So you send us to all your scumbag dealerships...
The responsibilities of a Wills Wing HANG GLIDER DEALER include:
A) Offering competent, safe instruction in the proper and safe use of hang gliding equipment.
...like Wallaby, Quest, Lookout, Manquin, and Ridgely where we buy your gliders and get a bunch of slap-on garbage...
Steve Kinsley - 1996/05/09 15:50
Personal opinion. While I don't know the circumstances of Frank's death and I am not an awesome tow type dude, I think tow releases, all of them, stink on ice. Reason: You need two hands to drive a hang glider. You 'specially need two hands if it starts to turn on tow. If you let go to release, the glider can almost instantly assume a radical attitude. We need a release that is held in the mouth. A clothespin. Open your mouth and you're off.
...which stinks on ice because:
-- when you try to use it the glider does all of the things you say it does when you take a hand of the basetube
-- it doesn't work:
--- when you put it on the basetube
--- no matter where you put it
-- it blows you off tow when tow is the only thing keeping you from crashing
- And they tell us that this crap is as safe as it can possibly be made because they've spent twenty years perfecting it and that there's no disadvantage to taking a hand off the basetube in a low level lockout.
- Oops. Sorry, there's no such thing as a low level lockout - just occasional idiots who try to save bad situations 'cause they don't want the inconvenience of having to start over.
- And your scumbag dealerships suppress any trace of innovation and improvement with the same brutal vengeance that they suppress reports of their shit equipment depriving people in bad situations of any opportunity to survive.
Robert T. Kells, Jr.
September 7, 1955 - August 9, 2008
Rob Kells passed away on August 9th, 2008 after a nearly two-year battle with prostate cancer. Rob was our friend and business partner at Wills Wing for more than thirty years.
Rob had his first exposure to hang gliding in the summer of 1973, ground skimming on a ski slope on a sixteen-foot standard. Having already flown sailplanes, Rob was relatively unimpressed with the level of performance of the standard Rogallo, and put hang gliding aside for a few years. In the summer of 1976, he would watch as a friend got an extended soaring flight on a new Wills Wing SST, and decide that the sport had progressed to where he was again interested.
In the spring of 1977, Rob and four of his friends traveled to Southern California in a motor home with hang gliders on the roof and showed up at Wills Wing. Wills Wing at the time was in its usual state of organizational disarray, and Rob and his friends decided that instead of pursuing their plan to become traveling sales representatives and air show pilots, they would first try to help Wills Wing get organized. After a short time, four of them left, but Rob stayed on.
On June 24, 1977 tragedy struck the Wills family when Bob Wills was killed while flying for a Jeep commercial at Escape Country. Bob had been the heart of the company, and there was serious doubt as to whether Wills Wing could continue.
Rob stepped up into a more active management role at this crucial time. He rallied the employees to work without the promise of pay, and encouraged the family to allow the company to try to survive. He worked to get Wills Wing's then current models - the XC's and SST's - certified to the newly established testing standards of the HGMA. Later, he went on the road to visit the dealers and restore confidence in the company. In subsequent years, Rob established and promoted policies within Wills Wing in support of retail dealers and instructors that helped to further safety and professionalism within the sport of hang gliding.
Rob negotiated with the Wills family to sell a majority share of the company to the current managing partners, thus ensuring their vested interest in the survival and success of the company.
Since that time Rob has been the most publicly visible representative of Wills Wing to the hang gliding community, though he has always freely acknowledged the essential contributions of his partners and the company employees.
Rob was a friend to every pilot he met, and his impact on and contributions to the sport of hang gliding cannot be overstated. He will be missed by everyone who knew him, and especially so by those who knew him best.
A summary of Rob's aviation career:
Hang Glider Pilot since 1973 - Master Rated by United States Hang Gliding Association
- 2100 hours
- 5000 flight operations
- Tandem Hang Glider Instructor - 200 flights
- Production and Developmental Test Pilot for Wills Wing since 1977
Paraglider Pilot since 1986
Weight Shift Ultralight Pilot - 70 hours
Fixed Wing Ultralight Pilot - 200 hours
FAA Private Pilot
- Airplane Single Engine Land and Sea ratings
- Airplane Multi Engine Land
- Instrument Airplane
- Glider Aerotow
- Total Time 1700 Hours
Head of Sales for Wills Wing since 1978
Competition Achievements
US Team Member - FAI Hang Gliding World Championships - 1985
Major Competitions Won:
- Grouse Mountain Championships 1980 and 1986
- First World Speed Gliding Championships - Telluride 1997
- Chattanooga Great Race - 1984
- Morningside Glide Angle Contest - 1994 and 1997
- Chelan Classic
- Telluride Aerobatic Championships
Professional Associations:
- Member United States Hang Gliding Association Board of Directors (Honorary Director) - 1980 through 1998
Professional Awards:
- Presidential Citation - United States Hang Gliding Association - 1998
- Order of the Raven - Grandfather Mountain
- Rogallo Foundation Hall of Fame - May 20, 2007
See Also: Wills Wing Prostate Cancer Information
In subsequent years, Rob established and promoted policies within Wills Wing in support of retail dealers and instructors that helped to further safety and professionalism within the sport of hang gliding.
Oh, I've heard the "everything we do is an experiment" line before.
The trouble is, it's not.
I've seen experimentation with towing gear more than anything else in HG.
I've not seen many go out and try to build their own sails for example. When someone does, they're very quickly "shown the light" by the community. Example... the guy that was building the PVC glider in California somewhere.
But for some reason, towing gear is exempt from this.
The difference is what we do has been done by thousands of people already. It's been tested... a lot.
What we do is free of the experimentation part.
It's still dangerous, but not at the level of building new gear is. Not even close.
That's what people fail to realize.
It's no small difference. It's a huge chasm.
Notice how I'm not saying to not do it.
Go forth and experiment. That's great... that's how we improve things.
I'm just warning you of that chasm.
A few years ago, I started refusing to tow people with home made gear.
I like the idea of improving gear, but the lack of appreciation for the world they were stepping into didn't sit with me.
For example... flying with the new gear in mid day conditions?
Are you kidding me????
Approach it for what it is... completely untested and very experimental gear which will likely fail in new and unforseen ways as it tries it's damndest to kill you... and then we can talk.
Encouraging them to only allow professionally produced Industry Standard gear with long track records to get off the ground?
I'm trying to make a list of people I hate enough to send to one of your dealerships for instruction and equipment but the vast majority of my top candidates are running them.
If you really wanted to further safety and professionalism within the sport of hang gliding the first thing you shoulda done is gotten enough wooden stakes to drive through the hearts of all those assholes.
Rob was a friend to every pilot he met...
Which is another way of saying he:
- had no principles
- was a friend to NO pilot he met
This sport is OOZING with lying, cheating, stealing, serial killing motherfuckers like Davis, Rooney, Adam, Matt, Jack, Dennis, and Jerry Forburger - and if you're a friend to scum like that just because they have the ability to hook into a kite and fly it around a bit then you're complicit in the murders of people like Brad Anderson, Eric Aasletten, Rob Richardson, Mike Haas, Jeremiah Thompson, Roy Messing, John Seward, Bill Priday, and Kunio Yoshimura.
You can't be a friend to decent guys like Steve Goldman and John Moody AND a piece o' shit like Jerry Forburger. Sometimes you gotta make a choice between good and evil - even/especially when the latter is one of your dealers. You weren't a friend to Steve or the other guys you smashed into the runway, the people who cared for them, or the people who patched up the ones that could be patched up. You let Jerry write that DESPICABLE letter and said NOTHING - so we know which way you went.
And you've never made the slightest effort to atone or make up for the damage that you did to those guys - even when you didn't even hafta make the slightest effort.
You weren't my friend. I HANDED you - for FREE - the release system technology for which your customer base has been screaming for decades. If you had been my friend you'd have taken it, publicly thanked me for it, and installed it on all your gliders. People would've been lined up around the block for the new birds and/or to have their old Wills Wing birds retrofitted, I'd have been happy, and you could've already saved a life or two and prevented A LOT of crashes.
But you just thanked me and walked away 'cause your real friends - if you actually have any - are the least common denominators who control this sport and keep it perpetually mired in neck deep shit.
You weren't Steve Kinsley's friend. You totally ignored his work and allowed one of your asshole dealers to keep putting people up on Industry Standard crap which shortly thereafter slammed one of his students in face first and almost killed her. (Holly doesn't owe you any favors either.)
...and his impact on and contributions to the sport of hang gliding cannot be overstated.
I do not recommend "stepping" on a cable (I assume you mean in mid-span) as part of a preflight. If your foot hits the ground with the cable underneath, or sand or rocks are trapped in your shoe treads, you could damage the cable that you are testing.
Do not STOMP on your wires. It's a good way to kink something that isn't already broken. Instead, have someone show you how to do a proper preflight on that model glider.
- What percentage of your schools are teaching people to read your fuckin' owners' manuals and follow the fuckin' instructions for critical preflight procedures?
Doug Hildreth - 1981/04
Just before the first step of your launch run, lift the glider and make certain that the straps become tight when you do so.
- What percentage of foot launches are being preceded by hook-in checks? Is it any better now in 2012 than it was in 1980?
Doug Hildreth - 1990/03
We all know that our new gliders are more difficult to land. We have been willing to accept this with the rationalization that it is the unavoidable consequence of higher performance. But I see my job as a responsibility to challenge acceptance and rationalization. From my perspective, what I see in the landing zone and what I see in the statistics column is not acceptable. Crashes on landing are causing too many bent downtubes, too many minor injuries and too many serious or fatally injured pilots.
So what are we going to do? One reply is, "We should teach all those bozos how to land properly." Well, we've been trying that approach for the past few years and it has NOT worked!
Most common HG injury... spiral fracture of the humerus.
- How are our landings going? Everybody got his flare timing down pretty well now?
Doug Hildreth - 1991/06
Pilot with some tow experience was towing on a new glider which was a little small for him. Good launch, but at about fifty feet the glider nosed up, stalled, and the pilot released by letting go of the basetube with right hand. Glider did a wingover to the left and crashed into a field next to the tow road. Amazingly, there were minimal injuries.
Comment: This scenario has been reported numerous times. Obviously, the primary problem is the lack of pilot skill and experience in avoiding low-level, post-launch, nose-high stalls. The emphasis by countless reporters that the pilot lets go of the glider with his right hand to activate the release seems to indicate that we need a better hands-on way to release.
I know, I know, "If they would just do it right. Our current system is really okay." I'm just telling you what's going on in the real world. They are not doing it right and it's up to us to fix the problem. Think about it.
- How 'bout release technology? Have we got some better hands-on ways to release? Or is the risk of putting completely untested and very experimental gear which will likely fail in new and unforseen ways as it tries its damndest to kill you into midday conditions so ridiculous that it would be certifiably insane to use anything but wonderful tried and true stuff Wills Wing schools like Quest, Wallaby, and Lookout provide at a pittance above production cost?
Steve and I HANDED those one to you, Rob. We put a lot of thought and work into that stuff. You couldn't even be bothered to ENDORSE them at any level WHATSOEVER. Fuck you.
Doug Hildreth - 1990/09
Apparently the angle caused an "auto release" of the towline from the pilot, who completed a hammerhead stall and dove into the ground.
- We got those truck tow release lanyards off the wrists? Or do we leave them on 'cause they go so well with the Wills Wing gliders launching on the magazine covers?
More Details on Equipment:
V-Bridle/Release System
But with the towline we use a standard weak link like we would for aerotow... Uh... This... In this particular case it's 130 greenline, 130 pound test.
- We got anything on the horizon on weak link policy verging on sanity?
Weight Shift Ultralight Pilot - 70 hours
Fixed Wing Ultralight Pilot - 200 hours
A weight shift ultralight isn't a fixed wing ultralight? Are there any rotary wing weight shift ultralights?
FAA Private Pilot
- Airplane Single Engine Land and Sea ratings
- Airplane Multi Engine Land
- Instrument Airplane
- Glider Aerotow
- Total Time 1700 Hours
- How did you land that stuff?
Gil Dodgen - 1995/01
All of this reminds me of a comment Mike Meier made when he was learning to fly sailplanes. He mentioned how easy it was to land a sailplane (with spoilers for glide-path control and wheels), and then said, "If other aircraft were as difficult to land as hang gliders no one would fly them."
- How difficult was it to land?
- How often did you see someone bonk a landing or bend something?
- Any possibility of hang gliders being routinely landed the same way?
- Glider Aerotow
- Were you ever unable to get a sailplane release to function?
- Did you ever suffer a control compromise while you were actuating a sailplane release?
- Did any of your sailplanes have backup releases?
- Did you ever fly a sailplane with a release that you velcroed onto the fuselage during setup?
- What's the purpose of a sailplane weak link?
- Is there a relationship between the load capacity of a sailplane and the legal weak link strength or is there a standard aerotow weak link used for all solo single seaters?
- Is there a legal minimum requirement for sailplane weak links?
- Is it legal for the front end weak link to be the same or less than the back end weak link?
We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year.
- What's the greatest number of consecutive sailplane weak link blows you've ever seen?
Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974
"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson
- Have you ever heard of anyone in hang gliding being crashed, hurt, killed do to a totally unnecessary weak link blow?
- Have you ever referred to Davis, Rooney, Steve Kroop, Bo, and/or Tracy Tillman as a stupid motherfucker? Or would that have complicated your policy of being a friend to every pilot you meet?
- Were any of the opinions of any of your sailplane instructors valued more highly than those of others?
- Did you ever get sailplane instruction from one person which flat out contradicted instruction from another and/or the textbooks and regulations?
In subsequent years, Rob established and promoted policies within Wills Wing in support of retail dealers and instructors that helped to further safety and professionalism within the sport of hang gliding.
BULLSHIT.
Zack C - 2010/12/13 04:58:15 UTC
I had a very different mindset too back then and trusted the people that made my equipment. Since then I've realized (largely due to this discussion) that while I can certainly consider the advice of others, I can't trust anyone in this sport but myself (and maybe the people at Wills Wing).
The everyones in this this sport that Zack can't trust are virtually all Wills Wing dealerships and products of their training. And that starts right to the top.
And his life was being seriously endangered every time he went off a ramp because none of your dealerships could be bothered to follow USHGA regulations and teach him what a hook-in check was.
And his life was being seriously and totally unnecessarily endangered every time he went up behind a tug with ANY of the junk supplied to him by ANY of your dealerships.
And he's purchased two of your gliders and that's the same number of arms he's broken on one of them 'cause none of your dealerships taught him how to approach a field or to take the safest landing option for the circumstances.
And the prospects of getting these problems you and your dealerships have been pouring into concrete for decades are about twenty times more hopeless now than when I started in the sport a few years after you got going.
See Also: Wills Wing Prostate Cancer Information
You wanna prevent misery, suffering, and death in this population you get a whole lot more bang for your buck by providing good regulations, standards, enforcement, instruction, and equipment. And there's no fuckin' way you can do that by being a friend to every halfwit, sleazeball, and halfwitted sleazeball you meet while you're traveling around the country selling them crisp new gliders with curved tips and backup suspension.
If you had really done anything that helped to further safety and professionalism within the sport of hang gliding I'd still be flying and this forum wouldn't exist.
Yeah. And anybody who isn't after looking around and seeing what's going on is part of the problem. You definitely don't bring the crash and kill rates down by getting along great with everybody.
P.S. I might disable that gif for a while if my headache gets any worse.
David W. Johnson - 2007/11/05 00:57:23 UTC
Huntsville, Alabama
Just so you will know, blowing a launch is probably not the worst feeling in the world.
My fourteen year old daughter's first mountain launch went wrong. I got to watch her fall forty feet into the trees.
Everything turned out alright. She bruised her knee and even the glider wasn't badly hurt, but I have never posted the video on the net out of concern for the sport.
If anyone knows my daughter, you might want to know that she did a solo aerotow for the first time this morning. It was LMFP. I had just come down from a flight and she was in the knee hanger harness with chute and grinning at me. She told me she had been cleared.
So, she did her first flight alone. She got nervous on the landing. There was lots of traffic on the field. She set down hard and bent the breakaway downtubes, but she was fine. The tow out and flight were flawless.
She is sixteen.
I can hardly wait to hear how flawlessly she comes through on her first landing in a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place.
Words fail me again as to why this is so wrong... Yet I know most of you don't share the same view.
Casey Cox - 2012/04/12 16:51:19 UTC
I knew someone would think a five year old getting a tandem would be wrong but we let our son make the decision if he wanted to go. There was no pressure from me.
At what age would a parent give a child a BB gun, a real gun, a dirt bike, or a bike for that matter and not give instruction or let the child have input as well as the parents determining if the child is ready?
If a parent gives a kid ANY of that stuff he can rest assured that there will be regulations covering the safety and integrity of the equipment and internationally recognized and standardized procedures for operating it. He won't have to worry about the gun blowing up in the kid's face or the bike or dirt bike suddenly becoming unsteerable and/or unstoppable.
And he won't have to get out in discussion groups listening to arguments about which expert opinion to value most.
I know some adults that are not even ready for the responsibility of driving a car.
And some of those adults are unable to meet the requirements to be allowed to drive a car. And lotsa others have the privilege suspended or revoked. And a good chunk of them get locked up - occasionally for rather long periods.
But you don't find much of that happening in hang gliding - despite the fact that the participants are coming from pretty much the same gene pool and the crash and kill rates are astronomically higher.
BTW, the tandem pilot is head instructor at Quest and top comp pilot.
So what?
- This is Mitch Shipley. The guy's such an absolute moron that he considers Rooney to be a genius.
- Bo Fuckin' Hagewood was a major player at Quest and the 2000 US National Champion. On 1991/12/15 he killed a 27 year old tandem student ten seconds shy of a Hang Two rating - and half killed himself - a bit short of the biggest, flattest, best groomed LZ this side of the Mississippi.
And a bit over a dozen years later he blew up a comp glider doing aerobatics and got three quarters killed 'cause his parachute wasn't connected to his harness.
The guy's a major asshole.
- Gordon Cayce is the head instructor at Lockout Mountain Flight Park and he doesn't have any more of clue what a hook-check is than the rest of these morons.
from the beginning of the month of one of his tandem aerotow training gliders. And all we know about this to date is that it was the result of a lockout.
This video is a promotional video intended for general public and is not real high speed for pilots that have seen numerous videos.
for a promotional video so people can get a more realistic feel for what happens after we graduate to solo and get issued our standard aerotow weak links?
Thanks for viewing though and your comment.
Adi Branch - 2012/04/13 11:01:39 UTC
Your choice is entirely your choice... fair play.
I have a small son myself and it's no one's business to tell me how to bring him up.
Bullshit. Talk to some Christian Scientist former parents who are doing time for involuntary manslaughter because they tried to get various microbes under control through prayer rather than the more conventional antibiotics.
Just to explain why I see this as risky though...
For me, the only problem I have with this kind of thing is that the child's decision is not informed.
And this differs from ANYBODY'S decision to go up on a hang glider how?
Nobody knows what the hell he's getting into with a hang glider - even a highly qualified sailplane pilot. Everybody's pretty much at the mercy of whichever asshole with whom he signs up and the shit equipment he sends him up on and sells.
And if you know an instructor who doesn't have his head stuck way up his ass please let me know so I can check him out and send my nephew to him - 'cause right now I've got nothing anywhere close.
Children have no sense of self preservation, they have no concept of danger, they certainly have no concept of the potential risks when they get strapped into a hang glider.
The strength of the weak link is crucial to a safe tow. It should be weak enough so that it will break before the pressure of the towline reaches a level that compromises the handling of the glider but strong enough so that it doesn't break every time you fly into a bit of rough air. A good rule of thumb for the optimum strength is one G, or in other words, equal to the total wing load of the glider. Most flight parks use 130 lb. braided Dacron line, so that one loop (which is the equivalent to two strands) is about 260 lb. strong - about the average wing load of a single pilot on a typical glider. For tandems, either two loops (four strands) of the same line or one loop of a stronger line is usually used to compensate for nearly twice the wing loading. When attaching the weak link to the bridle, position the knot so that it's hidden from the main tension in the link and excluded altogether from the equation.
The Wallaby Ranch Aerotowing Primer for Experienced Pilots - 2012/03/18
A weak link connects the V-pull to the release, providing a safe limit on the tow force. If you fail to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon), the weak link will break before you can get into too much trouble.
...DO?
You are making this decision for them.
The United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association, Inc.
Standard Operating Procedure
12. Rating System
02. Pilot Proficiency System
23. Addendum 1 - Optional Landing Task
At the discretion of the Observer or Instructor and not the pilot, this task may be substituted for the "three spot landings in a row" task. The optional landing task must only be used when the spot landing task is not practical or potentially dangerous.
They should probably get used to other people making their decisions for them. Or get sick enough of it to rip somebody's balls off and shove them down his throat where they properly belong.
Despite the fact that the instructor is good...
He's NOT. ALL these people are incompetent morons.
...this is no different from giving your child to an experienced motorcyclist, putting him on the back, and letting him go down the freeway at a hundred miles per hour.
BULLSHIT.
- Even with all the shit equipment that these assholes use and some pinbrain like Lauren at the wheel a Quest aerotow is about a billion times safer than that exercise. They're moving at about a third of the speed with about a ninth of the energy over a much softer surface that isn't even gonna be around anywhere close by for the vast majority of the ride.
- They're highly unlikely to be affected by a Cessna making a quick lane change without checking the side view mirror.
- You crash a hang glider you have a lot of stuff around you to crumple and dissipate energy lotsa times.
- And, rather than just sitting there hanging on, he's hooked in (for a dolly launch anyway).
I wouldn't do that, even if it was me riding the bike.
EVEN if it were you riding the bike? Wow. I'm really impressed by your dedication to your kid's safety.
I guess things must be a bit different in the UK but if you pulled a stunt like that on this side of the pond you'd be lucky to be permitted a phone call to your kid every other birthday after you finished serving your sentence.
Tandems go wrong...
Tons of shit goes wrong. Three days ago a twelve year old kid died 'cause the baseball he was using for a game of catch hit him in the neck.
...so to me it's an unnecessary risk.
The unnecessary risk really isn't the tandem flight itself. As a matter of fact he may be a bit safer by virtue of the separation from the Panthers, Alligators, and Burmese Pythons. But here's a modest sampling of the unnecessary risks involved in a flight like that being taken solely because of the grotesque incompetence, apathy, and irresponsibility of the operation and national organization:
When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less), but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it. The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.
Anyhow, the tandem can indeed perform big wingovers, as I demonstrated when I finally got separated from the tug.
Note that...
British Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association Technical Manual - 2003/04
On tow the Pilot in Command must have his hand actually on the release at all times. 'Near' the release is not close enough! When you have two hands completely full of locked-out glider, taking one off to go looking for the release guarantees that your situation is going to get worse before it gets better.
...that piece of shit Quest release of theirs wouldn't even be LEGAL in your country just based on the actuator location - and the piece of shit bent pin barrel release isn't even remotely legal even in this one.
Kids are meant to be riding bikes, playing with friends, playing football, etc.
And they get badly hurt and killed doing and pursuing all of those things. And there's a pretty good argument to be made that he's better off doing a dozen tandem flights than he is bouncing a soccer ball off his head a dozen times.
I'm not sure why the need is there to take them up to three thousand feet in a hang glider.
- There's no NEED to put ANYBODY up in a hang glider - EVER.
- Three thousand feet ain't where the problems are. The problems are just about all well under a couple hundred feet.
This is surely for the enjoyment of the parent and not the child?
The kid looked as happy as any other blissfully ignorant mark.
Anyway, he looked happy and no harm done.
Yeah. There WAS damage done. Everybody got just a little more message that you can violate rules, use crappy equipment, ignore deadly known issues, and reject easy known fixes and get way with it just about all the time.
I just wanted to explain why I made the comment.
Casey Cox - 2012/04/13 01:06:16 UTC
To each his own. I had a friend who was killed along with his entire family by a head-on collision in an auto. He also made the decision for his children when he put them in an auto and drove down the highway with other autos coming at them (supposedly in the opposite lane) and beyond his control.
How fast was he going? Try going out on the road and driving the speed limit and see how popular you become.
Not sayin' that you can't be doing everything right and have something like this happen but WAS he doing everything right and giving himself some margin to at least be able to mitigate a situation like this? Or was he just assuming that an event like this wouldn't happen the way all of these Quallaby release assholes figure they'll be OK no matter what.
I had no influence on him going.
You HAD influence. You may not have USED it one way or another - but you had it.
We never push our child. He is my only son and I was 42 at his birth. BTW, this was a training flight for him...
Yeah right. People go up on these things and maybe learn how to go up and down and left and right but you can't get training from people who have no fuckin' clue what they're talking about.
...and, if he decides to continue training, it will be fine with me. But I will have input prior to him doing a solo.
What makes you think that would be a good thing? You're putting him up with these morons, you're buying into everything they're saying, you're not listening to the whistleblowers... How many more sources of bullshit does he need?
In other words, it my take him ten years of ground training as well as flight training before he takes a solo.
- What are you expecting him to learn in ten years of ground training?
- Assuming you learn to fly a glider - which you can't on the ground - everything you could possibly need to know to aerotow as safely as possible can be learned in about three to five minutes.
- And that's about two to four minutes more than a lot of people of my generation got before they foot launched one point behind their first trikes.
- If any of these Quest assholes spends an hour with him on ground school at least fifty-nine minutes worth of what they'll be telling him will be crap.
- How much ground school and tandem training do you think you need to be able able to:
-- fight a lockout with one hand while you attempt to whack a Quest brake lever with the other?
-- recover from a seventy-five foot whipstall when your standard aerotow weak link improves the safety of the tow operation at fifty feet?
-- prevent a cartwheel when your tug driver fixes whatever's going on back there by giving you the rope - and what was going on back there was that you were tip stalling?
-- recover from the dive you're in as a result of being towed by your keel after your Quallaby release locks up and your bridle wraps after you hit your backup release?
- You're making an assumption that he'll be safer flying tandem with Mitch and/or Lauren on their crap equipment than he would be solo on some decent equipment. Are you sure that's a valid assumption? A pretty good percentage of US aerotow fatalities have been tandem - and Quest accounts for one of those pairs.
- Ya gonna let Lauren teach him to land? She ripped her shoulder apart coming into Quest in zilch air 'cause the only thing she could think about was stopping her goddam glider on her goddam feet.
I got news for ya Skier...
-- Sometimes when you go up with shit equipment, procedures, and drivers often enough it may not matter whether you're a five year old kid on his first tandem or a thirty-five year old Hang Five aerobatics champion with five thousand aerotows and ten thousand hours - you can get killed equally dead either way.
-- A five year old hooked into a solo glider may come out of the situation better than he would hooked into a tandem with Rooney dangling from the basetube and some powerlines ahead.
You've seen the discussions about the junk equipment these assholes are putting on these and everybody else's gliders. Hell, you've participated in some of them. So I don't care if the chances of your kid getting fucked up on the flight at Quest are a tenth of the chances of him getting fucked up on the drive to Quest. Putting him up with these assholes on that equipment is irresponsible.
And it doesn't matter in the least if he's five, ten, fifteen, twenty-five, fifty, or seventy-five. Anybody who participates in opinion and luck based aviation can become a five year old kid in a heartbeat.
Instead of allowing these assholes to rot his brain for ten years have him learn and understand the math, science, history, and issues of this sport and make him aware of the available fixes.
But, of course, you won't. You've had plenty of opportunity to do that for yourself so it's pretty much a no brainer that you won't do any better by your kid.
So just put him up with a standard aerotow weak link to improve the safety of the towing operation, instructions from Mitch on how to recover from the stall when it blows at twenty feet, and a hook knife 'cause it's impossible to design a really reliable release mechanism. And tell him to always release at the first sign of trouble and not try to save a bad situation.
You won't catch much heat from the Jack Show crowd with that approach as long as he's at least fourteen if/when he slams in.
And, what the hell, odds are it won't be your kid whose number comes up when three things go wrong at the same time - it'll probably be somebody else's.
Tad Eareckson wrote:So I don't care if the chances of your kid getting fucked up on the flight at Quest are a tenth of the chances of him getting fucked up on the drive to Quest.
I'd sure care. I don't know if those numbers (10 to 1) are correct or not, but if they are, then maybe you should re-evaluate your focus.
You have some MAJOR reading comprehension issues, Bob. But let's say that there's good statistical data which indicates the probability that your kid IS ten times more likely to get fucked up on the drive than the tandem flight. What do you want me to do about it?
Throughout the civilized world we have good sane laws and engineering standards for equipment and procedures for what goes on the roads. And we have courts, jails, prisons, and guys with guns to help get points across to people who are a little slow on the uptake.
In hang gliding we got shit so when the assholes at Hang Glide Chicago violate the crap out of USHGA's and the FAA's make-believe regulations and snuff out Jeremiah Thompson's hang gliding career and life nobody's responsible for anything and nothing gets fixed to the point that it was supposed to be in the first place. The only thing that happens is that USHGA revises its SOPs to remove all the regulations that whose violations precipitated the fatality.
Let's say that Casey has to drive six hundred miles from Eastern North Carolina to Quest. That's a rather optimistic ten hours worth of opportunity for his kid to get fucked up.
Let's call the tandem ride - up and down - fifteen minutes. So we're talking about an exposure time ratio of forty to one. So fifteen minutes on the glider is four times more dangerous than fifteen minutes on the road. But we're not worried about fifteen minutes on the tandem ride 'cause after you clear about two hundred feet you're pretty much bulletproof and the shit equipment you're using is totally irrelevant - out of the equation. So we're only worried about the kid getting fucked up for about thirty seconds through the kill zone.
So now we have a tow launch that's twelve times more likely to get the kid fucked up than the same thirty seconds on the road. But the drive ISN'T ten times more dangerous - as anybody with an IQ up into double digits bloody well knows. So if we just make the drive and the tandem flight equal risk then that initial thirty seconds through the kill zone is 120 times as dangerous as anything on the road.
And I've personally known one glider diver who broke a wrist, one who shattered a face, three who were snuffed, and a whole shitload who would've been snuffed if what hit them up high had hit them down low. And - aside from the time when I flew off my grandmother's lap and kissed the steel dashboard when somebody ran a red and my dad slammed on the brakes when I was about three (bloody lip) - I don't know of any of the glider divers whom I've known personally who've been so much as bruised in a car.
So there's not much question that a ratio of 120 to one is being REAL GENEROUS and I don't think I need to reevaluate my focus very much. Let's hop in our time machine, set it to the beginning of the month, and tell Casey that if he wants to put his kid up for a tandem aerotow, Lookout's only about two thirds of the driving time.
