instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

[Steve Davy]

Bob lives in a fantasy world of his own design. Comprehension is a threat to his fantasy.

[Zack C]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7671
Gallery Of Pain

Hghg - 2012/04/03 11:38:13 UTC

ouch

http://i.imgur.com/tt379.jpg

Christopher LeFay - 2012/04/03 12:17:11 UTC

Any word on what contributed to the lockout? The valley frequently features sketchy conditions for towing low over trees - sucky place for a tow program; still, if you consider the number of tow flights, there are remarkably few accidents of this sort...

Ones that you hear about anyway.

It is absolutely ASTOUNDING that something like that can happen and that post from Christopher is everything we know about it.

I checked with my sources and was able to get a report.

The accident was Pete and a student and it occurred, I believe, on April 2nd. According to Pete, his student began PIOing almost right from lift off. Pete was telling the student what to do but his inputs were entirely the opposite and then the student completely locked-up on the base tube. Heading for a lockout Dave gave them the rope as Pete simulatneously disconnected. Pete told me he had to physically climb on the down tube to affect any control whatsoever. He did finally wrest control of the glider from the student but at that point they were close to the trees near Roddy's house. Once in control and even knowing at that point they were heading for a crash Pete said he felt very relieved. He righted the glider and steered into nicest looking tree crown he could find and flared right into the top. The impact was surprisingly gentle and they and the glider slid to the ground. Save a small cut on Pete's face, neither was injured.

Pete's a pretty mellow guy and didn't seem at all rattled by the expereince and was out flying the next day. I don't know who the student was or how far along he was in his training but, to the best of my knowledge, he hasn't been seen since the accident.

Zack

[Tad Eareckson]

I checked with my sources and was able to get a report.

Good job!

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=20756
How is Zach Etheridge doing?

Bob Flynn - 2011/02/04 11:26:34 UTC
Jacksonville, North Carolina

Lookout keeps this kind of stuff under their hat. You never hear of accidents there. But every time I go there, I hear about quite a few. Blown launches, tree landings, etc.

How much did it set you back?
Anyway...
Damn. Christopher's post was pretty misleading and I was so hoping that this was gonna be documentation of one of my dream lockouts.
However...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=4334
OUCH!!!

Judy Phillips - 2007/11/12 22:18:31 UTC

Yeah... it scared me soooo bad that on Sunday all I could do on the hill was cry, because the thought of running down the hill even scared me.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=4171
Have you ever blown a launch?

David W. Johnson - 2007/11/05 00:57:23 UTC
Huntsville, Alabama

My fourteen year old daughter's first mountain launch went wrong. I got to watch her fall forty feet into the trees.

As to the problem: she tried to take the launch back after starting, pushed out to a stall and parachuted down to the trees. Nobody knew she was that nervous.

miguel - 2012/04/18 21:37:30 UTC

He is upright, uptight and scared...

It DOES tie in to one of the many things I've been saying - recently - about that dump.

Tad Eareckson - 2012/04/19 06:13:25 UTC

Bloody right he is.

Matt wants him scared as much as possible so he can extend the "training" period as long as possible and fuck him over for as many bucks as possible.

They're not training people to fly and they're putting them into situations for which they're - consequently - not ready. And it's kinda nice to see one of MATT'S gliders wrecked for a change.

Pete's a pretty mellow guy and didn't seem at all rattled by the experience and was out flying the next day. I don't know who the student was or how far along he was in his training but, to the best of my knowledge, he hasn't been seen since the accident.

That wasn't an ACCIDENT and it wasn't the student's fault. That was one hundred percent Lockout Mountain Flight Park's fault. And it probably cost the student his career in the sport.

The only time a student should (and must) be scared is two seconds before launch and the only thing he should be scared of is going off the ramp without a glider to fly. Once he's airborne the flight should be nothing but fun. If it isn't the instructor has fucked up.

So of course Lookout does the precise opposite with its "students" - teaches them to NEVER be afraid of launching unhooked and throws them into the air scared because they're without the training, understanding, experience, and equipment to safely control the glider.

Oh well...

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=795
AL's Flight At Packsaddle 10-04-11

Al Hernandez - 2011/10/07 07:32:23 UTC

I got a call from Jeff Hunt in the morning to be out at Packsaddle Mountain to get a high flight later that evening, and he wanted me there at 5 pm on Monday (2011/10/03). The thought of a high flight was kind of a shock, since I haven't flown altitude since last year, so fear and confusion was doing the Macarena in my head.

Last year my high flights didn't go that well, I remember that I was doing a winch tow tandem with Jack Walters in Hearne. Our first flight on a Falcon 2 Tandem, the glider started to pop back and forth, I was about to ask Jack what the hell is going on? Before I asked the weak link broke, I pulled in as the glider's nosed went down towards the Earth, it kept flying though. I told Jack, "I am going to put it in the grass this time." I made a left turn to the grassy area, at fifty feet. The left wing just dropped. I thought that was the end of time for us. I yelled at Jack, "Take over." As I moved my hands from the control bar Jack pulled it in, picked up speed, got it flying again, and landed right after that.

All this was crossing my mind. The time when I didn't know how to fly a glider and got up to altitude and didn't know what I was doing. I had an idea but that wasn't going to do the trick. I flew it but didn't know how to land or I forgot about landing and busted my left leg. Then the thought the thought of how a thermal almost flipped me over crossed my mind.

I didn't show up on Monday. I wasn't sure I was ready for a high flight just yet. Later that night I got a call from Jeff, I didn't want to pick up the phone cause I knew what I was going to hear. I did answer the phone, sure enough, the first thing I hear, "What happened, Al? You were suppose to be here. I have your glider on my truck. Get your butt here tomorrow or find someone else to teach you." I told him, "Fine fine fine! I will be there for sure. See you on Tuesday at Pack."

I didn't sleep that night, trying to remember how to turn a glider, the inputs, plus I had not flown in a month or better. I tossed and turned in my bed that night, this will be my last day on Earth, next morning 5:30 am. I took my wife to work dropped her off and told her that I loved her and gave her a goodbye kiss. I didn't tell her where I was going.

It was still dark all around as I drove myself to the location. I kept thinking I am driving to my funeral, this will be the day that I die.

I got there, Jeff and another guy was waiting for me on the LZ the time about 8 am. I was feeling anxiety, not so much of flying the glider, but the turns, the turns, this is what I was worried about this was the part that was going to kill me. I have had payout winch tows, scooter tows, flying straight patterns and I do fine with this kind of flying, but a mountain I had never flown and had just been flying off a small hill in Austin with no turns. I was going to have to make turns to keep my butt alive. The only turns I had made were with Jack Walters last year on that tandem flight. I did not remember how to turn, I knew what the book said but I had not done it on my own on a solo flight.

The drive up the hill was killing me, as we were going up the rocky road to the top of Pack. I felt like I was going to puke. My turn was up the sand of time for me was running low, time to nut up, or shut up. Jeff had a big smile on his face watching me change colors from Brown to White. "You feeling alright Al?" as he drove up the mountain. Yeah, yeah, I replied. If I was going to back out of this one, he later said, he was going to kick my ass off that mountain one way or the other.

At the launch, I could see the little cows on the fields below. They looked like little black spots on the grass. More anxiety set in.

I had not launched yet because I was having an anxiety attack at the time. I could hear Jeffo saying "Inhale, exhale. You feel better now, Al?"

I guess that's pretty much standard operating procedure nowadays.

[Zack C]

How much did it set you back?

Actually, I think I did them a favor. With a post as vague as what was on the Oz Report, people (like you =) ) are going to think all sorts of things, some much worse than the reality.

Matt wants him scared as much as possible so he can extend the "training" period as long as possible and fuck him over for as many bucks as possible.

If you really believe that, you're more cynical than I thought. How exactly is scaring students going to make them money? Lookout makes their money from students by selling them equipment.

Zack

[Tad Eareckson]

Actually, I think I did them a favor.

You must have. I felt like I was robbed.

...some much worse than the reality.

I personally really wanted it to have been a lockout 'cause I've spent half my life developing equipment to handle lockouts and don't give much of a rat's ass about the tandem training - but the reality on this one was pretty bad.

1991/12/15 - Michael Elliot - 27 - Novice - Pacific Airwave Double Vision - Lookout Mountain Flight Park

Novice pilot went tandem with experienced tandem pilot (Bo Hagewood) in preparation for first solo altitude flight. On the base leg of the landing approach, flying crosswind over tree line, the attempt to turn onto final was unsuccessful. The inability to turn onto final may have been caused by thermal activity, the passenger interfering with glider control, or both. The glider continued straight, hit a tree, and side slipped 60 feet. The novice passenger died, the tandem pilot was seriously injured.

'Specially after they've tried to blame student interference with control on a fatality at that field.

Lockout Mountain Flight Park - 2012/04/24

Tandem Flights

What is your safety record? LMFP flies thousands of tandems every year without incident. Our tandem pilots have hundreds of hours (that's a lot in non motorized flight) before they ever fly their first tandem, and tandem pilots go through a rigorous training program before they are ever rated to fly a tandem with you. We have not had an injury in our tandem program for 20 years.

LMFP flies thousands of tandems every year without incident (and about twenty or thirty that end up in the trees that nobody ever hears about).

Our tandem pilots have hundreds of hours (that's a lot in non motorized flight) before they ever fly their first tandem, and tandem pilots go through a rigorous training program before they are ever rated to fly a tandem with you (which now includes two full days of classroom and flight instruction to emphasize that the turn onto final MUST be initiated ABOVE treetop level).

We have not had an injury in our tandem program for twenty years (but...

Lookout Mountain Flight Park (LMFP) has been in operation for over thirty years...

...and that first decade was a real bloodbath.

And note that you had to go digging and Matt didn't come get out on the wire to do himself a favor the way he did when Antoine got real public with the Lockout Mountain Death Release.

If you really believe that, you're more cynical than I thought.

You'll never lose pushing that one to the stops.

How exactly is scaring students going to make them money?

It prolongs the period of dependency. Talk to Alan Wengren (who went on to break an arm at Point of the Mountain, by the way) sometime. I was down there when Matt was screwing him over. And after I returned he was on the phone to me just about daily unloading a lot of anger about the way he was being held back and forced to fly that upright bullshit.

I was a fairly quick study but got my Two over the course of eight lessons in five days and was miles ahead of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_yTHPgNxsk

05-03223
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http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5120/14188732974_08536f5037_o.png
08-43827

guy. (Wonder if he needed treatment for PTSD after that one.)

Hang Gliding - 2004/10

Christian Thoreson

Thus wheel landings, the safest and easiest way to consistently land a hang glider...
-
Christian Thoreson has been actively flying hang gliders since 1979 and has been the flight school director at Lookout Mountain Flight Park since 1990.

So what's YOUR explanation as to why every trace of that message was totally wiped from the program? Do you think Matt was totally oblivious to it and the Jayne DePanfilis article in the following edition?

This sport is evolving backwards and money's at the bottom of everything.

I'm thinking that the reason we'll always have the standard aerotow weak link is because it allows the flight parks to justify higher lift ticket prices to pay for all the relights and increases sales of downtubes and tip wands. Next time you're at Lockout see if they still have a spool of two hundred available at launch.

The new GT aerotow release, new as of July 11th 2009, is designed to be used with a V bridle and a 130-pound green stripe Dacron tournament fishing line weak link. At this time it is not recommended to use this release with a higher value weak link. We are confident that with an ultimate load of 130 pounds at the release point, the new GT aerotow release works better than all cable releases that we have experience with.

Might make things a bit awkward, don't ya think?

Lookout makes their money from students by selling them equipment.

And parts and labor for WHEN they crash.

[Tad Eareckson]

Lockout Mountain Flight Park - 2008/08/10

Safety Advisory

Advisory Release from Lookout Mountain Flight Park

1. Please check with Matt or an instructor before customizing any of your equipment. There may be unforeseen hazards associated with your customization. This is especially true with most aerotowing equipment. Keep in mind that aerotowing, while very easy and simple, is less forgiving when a major problem occurs.

2. It is unacceptable to fly hang gliders if you are taking any medication that would impair your cognitive skills or your sensory perception. If you are having medical problems that cause the same effect, you should not fly hang gliders until the problem is gone and you are cleared by a doctor to fly.

3. LMFP recommends that solo high altitude pilots use a good, full face helmet. Modern helmet technology has improved greatly over the past decade. If you are flying at high altitude, and are not flying tandem where communication is a priority, than there is little reason to not fly with a high caliber helmet.

Please check with Matt or an instructor before customizing any of your equipment.

Yeah. CUSTOMIZING it. People are always trying to trick these things out. Tinkering with the carburetor settings, installing sound systems, hanging fuzzy dice...

Ralph Sickinger - 2000/08/26 22:18:20 UTC

Under sled conditions, I decided to borrow Brian Vant-Hull's glider instead of setting up my own, since we both fly the same type of glider. Brian's release is a different style, but I tested it twice during preflight to make sure I was familiar with it. After towing to altitude, Sunny waved me off; I pulled on the release (hard), but nothing happened! After the second failed attempt to release, I thought about releasing from the secondary, but before I could move my hand the tug stalled and started to fall; Sunny had no choice but to gun the engine in attempt to regain flying speed, but this resulted in a sudden and severe pull on the harness and glider; I was only able to pull on the release again, while simultaneously praying for the weak link to break. The release finally opened, and I was free of the tug.

Brian Vant-Hull - 2000/08/28 22:49:13 UTC

I purchased my release (the one Ralph used) at Lookout Mountain over a year ago, but never had any problems until the Ridgely Fly-In, where the same thing happened. I pulled three or four times on the release, then finally went to the secondary, by which time I was high above the tug and Sunny (is there a connection here?) was frantically waving me off.

Brian Vant-Hull - 2000/09/06

We instead retied the attachment point so it pulls only slightly asymmetrical from the hinge. I'd like a little more asymmetry than I've got, and would be happy to look at other people's attachment techniques.

...TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO MAKE THE PIECE OF SHIT WORK.

There may be unforeseen hazards associated with your customization.

And blindingly obvious hazards...

There is no product liability insurance covering this gear and we do not warrant this gear as suitable for towing anything.

...which, happily, you spell out in the owner's manual which you supply with the newly purchased "equipment".

This is especially true with most aerotowing equipment.

- Ya got that right, motherfucker. Not real surprising when you get to know the scumbags who pump it out into circulation.

- So you just keep putting out the message that there's just no possible way to provide safe aerotow equipment - you pin bending son of a bitch.

- Particularly the most aerotowing "equipment" from Lockout Mountain Flight Park.

- So how come we can get the whole fuckin' glider from a manufacturer and there are no advisories about needing to talk to the manufacturer about "unforeseen hazards"?

Keep in mind that aerotowing, while very easy and simple, is less forgiving when a major problem occurs.

- Translation into NonSleazese...

Aerotowing is very easy and simple - until the shit hits the fan. Then it's fuckin' deadly.

- And the biggest problem that typically occurs...

http://vimeo.com/17472603

password - red
http://vimeo.com/40757858

password - red
4:00
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pC1yrdDV4sI

26-41804
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http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3842/14633550919_57af1df255_o.png
32-42004
0:50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR_4jKLqrus

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTKIAvqd7GI

04-2301
http://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5535/14077566935_0a5d82d279_o.png

08-2323
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22-2907
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7345/14077539605_d356a1f6fd_o.png

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYe3YmdIQTM


...is shit "equipment" from Lockout Mountain Flight Park.

It is unacceptable to fly hang gliders if you are taking any medication that would impair your cognitive skills or your sensory perception.

Wouldn't you agree that if you your cognitive skills and/or sensory perception are impaired enough to fly with any of you motherfuckers...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=4334
OUCH!!!

Judy Phillips - 2007/11/12 22:00:48 UTC

Now, Lauren was waiting for me to get ready to land as she was going to yell "flare" if it looked as though it would be possible. So after coming out to trim and moving my hands in position to flare she yells, as my wings are level at this time. So, I start to do it. I got my hands up but hadn't completely locked my elbows, when I zoomed!

...that a few pills aren't likely to make anything significantly worse? Hell, one might even be significantly better off!

LMFP recommends that solo high altitude pilots use a good, full face helmet.

Right.

- Just for solo.

The novice passenger died, the tandem pilot was seriously injured.

What could POSSIBLY go wrong when you've got a good tandem instructor like Bo Hagewood keeping things together?

- And below about forty or fifty feet there's not much need for a good helmet. It's the high altitude stuff that you've really gotta worry about.

Get fucked.

[Zack C]

It prolongs the period of dependency.

That still doesn't answer how it makes them money.

So what's YOUR explanation as to why every trace of that message was totally wiped from the program?

That's not really true. On any day with a lot of people flying you'll see a few come down on wheels (intentionally) out there. Students at the hills wheel land on their first flights. Their tandems only land on wheels. Students who only do aerotow training land on wheels throughout their training as well as when they start soloing. I suspect, but cannot confirm, that they will sign off H2s at the hills without demonstrating foot landings if the student has some kind of limitation that precludes foot landing. When I was a new H2 there, I landed on my wheels a number of times when I didn't think things were going well for foot landing.

I've said this before, but I think the reason they push foot landings at the hills is it's a difficult skill to learn and there's no better place to learn it than under constant coaching and supervision.

Zack

[Tad Eareckson]

That still doesn't answer how it makes them money.

More lessons, ATV retrieves, trips to Lookout, camping fees, hanging out at the shop, "I-Survived-Lookout-2012!" T-shirts, great public relations with the town of Trenton and its businesses.

On any day with a lot of people flying you'll see a few come down on wheels (intentionally) out there.

- Based upon my own observations of a late afternoon light air flush cycle you'll see a lot more people unintentionally whacking, ground looping, and bending and breaking downtubes than you will people intentionally rolling in. (Wish I had had a camera rolling.)

- Are these people doing this because they were trained to or because they're capable of thinking for themselves enough to override their training?

- How many people will I see doing hard unintentional wheel landings who'd have come in a lot smoother had the wheel landings been the results of the pilots' decisions?

- Relative to the one for the no stepper crowd, how big is the cheering section for the perfect wheel landers?

Students at the hills wheel land on their first flights.

As did I, the vast majority of my dune students, and the vast majority of ANYONE'S students. It's safe, easy, natural, instinctive, the way planes are SUPPOSED TO BE landed.

Their tandems only land on wheels.

Because the tandem instructors don't want THEIR OWN arms broken. Same reason tandems flights don't use weak links but student and all other patron solos DO.

Students who only do aerotow training land on wheels throughout their training as well as when they start soloing.

So then what's the justification for forcing their terrified training hill graduates...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_yTHPgNxsk

05-03223
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http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5120/14188732974_08536f5037_o.png
08-43827

...to stay upright from the point at which they pick up the glider, skip the hook-in check, and run off the ramp until they stop it in the LZ, unhook, turning off the camera, crumple to the ground, and sob uncontrollably?

I suspect, but cannot confirm, that they will sign off H2s at the hills without demonstrating foot landings if the student has some kind of limitation that precludes foot landing.

- Right. AFTER someone's fucked up an ankle, knee, back, arm, shoulder, or supraspinatus tendon as a consequence of practicing safe landings they'll ALLOW him to do the landing that he started his career off with and, if he's smart...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25536
Whoops! Snapped another tip wand :-O

NMERider - 2012/03/14 15:17:14 UTC

I refuse to come in with both hands on the downtubes ever again.

http://ozreport.com/16.077
Mike Barber flies with wheels.

Davis Straub - 2012/04/17 12:19:33 UTC

He stated that if things got dicey on landing he stayed on the basetube and landed on his wheels.

...will finish up with.

- Goddam right they will. If they don't sign people off as a Twos...

Zack C - 2012/04/24 03:41:37 UTC

Lookout makes their money from students by selling them equipment.

...they can't sell them (Wills Wing) gliders.

When I was a new H2 there, I landed on my wheels a number of times when I didn't think things were going well for foot landing.

Yeah? Was that something you picked up in...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=4334
OUCH!!!

Judy Phillips - 2007/11/12 22:00:48 UTC

Since I was already off target and was having trouble finding it again, I decided the best thing I could do was to just try and keep my wings as level as possible and just wheel it in.

Now, Lauren was waiting for me to get ready to land as she was going to yell "flare" if it looked as though it would be possible.

So after coming out to trim and moving my hands in position to flare, she yells, as my wings are level at this time. So, I start to do it. I got my hands up but hadn't completely locked my elbows, when I zoomed!

...or despite your training?

I've said this before, but I think the reason they push foot landings at the hills is it's a difficult...

...and totally unnecessary...

...skill...

Stunt.

...to learn...

Be able to get away with a high percentage of the time.

...and there's no better place to...

...pretend to...

...learn it than under constant coaching and supervision.

Brainwashing.

At the expense of hook-in checks, flying prone, turning, and landing approach.

NOTHING you've said is clear indication that Lookout students are being taught to consider the wheel landings as the best safest option for virtually all landings and the standup as mostly unnecessary and risky emergency procedure.

How well had you been trained - by Lookout or anyone else - to handle the approach and landing at the Valle de Bravo LZ on 2009/01/13?

[Zack C]

More lessons, ATV retrieves, trips to Lookout, camping fees, hanging out at the shop, "I-Survived-Lookout-2012!" T-shirts, great public relations with the town of Trenton and its businesses.

Wouldn't those things also apply if they spent more time adequately preparing them so they wouldn't be scared?

Are these people doing this because they were trained to or because they're capable of thinking for themselves enough to override their training?

When I was a new H2 there, I landed on my wheels a number of times when I didn't think things were going well for foot landing.

Yeah? Was that something you picked up in...or despite your training?

I know I was told that it was perfectly OK to wheel land on a mowed field like Lookout's LZ.

Relative to the one for the no stepper crowd, how big is the cheering section for the perfect wheel landers?

They don't cheer for wheel landings because they're not difficult 'stunts'. But you do sometimes hear one guy say to another (when conditions are dicey) something along the lines of, 'That was the smart thing to do.'

Students who only do aerotow training land on wheels throughout their training as well as when they start soloing.

So then what's the justification for forcing their terrified training hill graduates...to stay upright...

We've already been down that road...it's because they've never flown prone before (and don't ask why because we've been down that road also). I flew my first solo upright (and no, I wasn't terrified) but my second solo was a (prone) aerotow and I flew all of my subsequent flights prone after that. They didn't care because I was already experienced flying prone.

NOTHING you've said is clear indication that Lookout students are being taught to consider the wheel landings as the best safest option for virtually all landings and the standup as mostly unnecessary and risky emergency procedure.

Well, yeah, but I was responding to your assertion that 'every trace of that [Christian's] message was totally wiped from the program'.

How well had you been trained - by Lookout or anyone else - to handle the approach and landing at the Valle de Bravo LZ on 2009/01/13?

I don't see the relevancy. I'm not arguing for the quality of Lookout's instruction...only that they're not at sleazy as you perceive.

Zack

[Tad Eareckson]

Wouldn't those things also apply if they spent more time adequately preparing them so they wouldn't be scared?

No, you can teach the fun stuff they NEED to know in no time. The standup landing you can teach forever. You just feed the student the lies that it's something:
- essential to to his advancement and safe participation in the sport
- he can perfect
Then he'll come back for clinics for the rest of his life trying to figure out what he's doing wrong.

I know I was told that it was perfectly OK to wheel land on a mowed field like Lookout's LZ.

Reminds me of Steve Wendt telling me it was "OK" for me to use my two point release system at his flight park after I had foolishly driven down there with the absurd idea that he'd have the slightest interest in anything better than the Quest and bent pin crap he sells.

I imagine it's also perfectly OK with them to do a hook-in check on a nice ramp like theirs a minute or two before running off.

But you do sometimes hear one guy say to another (when conditions are dicey) something along the lines of, 'That was the smart thing to do.'

Yeah, overriding all of one's training to land like Steve Pearson or Mike Barber and avoid breaking an arm.

They didn't care because I was already experienced flying prone.

I was experienced flying prone on the morning of 1980/04/02 a little over ten seconds after Jim Johns cleared me to launch an Eaglet 191 off the front dune at Jockey's Ridge.

By a couple of dozen flights later I'm pretty sure I could've run a Sport 2 off of Lookout's ramp in a smooth ten mile per hour wind, flown prone to the LZ, and stopped safely parked it in the LZ without any of the anxiety we saw from Upright Guy.

But when you're working on a training hill you should wring the hell out of it before you leave it. And that goes way the hell beyond "learning" to fly prone.

Well, yeah, but I was responding to your assertion...

They're pretty much just tolerating - not pushing - it. If EVER there were an appropriate flight to roll in it was the one Judy was on before Lauren overrode her instincts and judgment and had her put it into orbit.

I don't see the relevancy.

The training hill is supposed to prepare you for the real thing. Skipping the hook-in check, running the glider into the air, staying upright, keeping it as dead level as you possibly can, and stopping it on your feet not only doesn't BEGIN to prepare you for the real thing - it to no small extent sets you up for disaster when you get there in about half a dozen different ways. And about half of them converged to turn your experience at Valle de Bravo into an extremely unpleasant one.

If I had had you at those training hills I could've sent you straight from there to Valle de Bravo and that WOULD NOT have happened.

...only that they're not at sleazy as you perceive.

I don't think a lot of the rank and file are. But, ultimately, you have Matt at the top of that show and his sleaziness knows no bounds. And as the years go by he'll just get better and better at being sleazy - as will this entire sport.