- They drilled it through the "W" so they could run a cable through the body and anchor it using that cable.
- That had the effect of realigning the loading to LATERAL - ninety degrees from, perpendicular to the loading for which it was designed, taking as much as possible of the loading off the pivot point and putting as much as possible on the gate and latch.
- If the assignment had been to destroy as much as possible of the mechanical advantage of this mechanism that would've been the way to do it.
- The motivation for these shitheads... The rivet at the pivot point can have a little bit of a sharp edge to it which can damage the Bobby Link. And rather than just spending a couple of minutes with a fine file to deburr it...
It's hard to imagine that anyone could possibly be that stupid.
P.S. Regarding my previous post in this thread, I was just messin' with you a little bit.
It's hard to imagine that anyone could possibly be that stupid.
It's so depressing. And these are the brain dead assholes to whom we've handed over half the sport - and the big half at that.
P.S. Regarding my previous post in this thread, I was just messin' with you a little bit.
Yeah, I know.
But the spinnaker shackle ain't a bad off the shelf core mechanism for us.
It's only problem is that it's designed to hold a heavy line under a couple of thousand pounds of tension and release it under two or three hundred pounds and we want something that's designed to hold and release a light line under under two or three hundred pounds of tension - sorry - PRESSURE.
I independently discovered the Wichard 2673 in the fall of '93 - not realizing that it had been used for hang glider towing at least as far back as a decade prior and that Bobby had started butchering it for the Florida ops two years prior - and knew within a second and a half of laying eyes on it in the Annapolis Performance Sailing display case what its problems were, mainly the one which would kill Robin a little over a dozen years later.
But I played with it A LOT and accurately determined that the gate issues were manageable with a wee bit of common sense applied. At that time I never in my wildest dreams would've predicted that hang gliding in general and the 2005 Worlds in particular would have been so totally devoid of anything remotely resembling a wee bit of common sense.
The standard in the US is 130 lb test line in one loop with a fisherman's knot.
Oh really. So who set it, under what authority, for what purpose, using what reasoning?
Does this work the same way unhooked launch prevention procedures do?
Don't know why the solution is being reworked but I suppose it is human nature.
For some time hang checks have been widely regarded as the way to confirm pilot is connected to glider.
Ignore the clear black and white SOPs and regulations and just have the stupidest people in the sport...
So even the people you want me to listen to you don't agree with 100%. Is there /anyone/ that agrees with you completely? Do you realize how difficult what you're asking me to do is? You're asking me, a not particularly experienced H3, to discard most of what I've been taught about weak links and the convention that has been accepted at pretty much all aerotow flight parks and competitions and trade it for a practice that very few are endorsing. It's very hard for me to believe that the convention is the convention only because everyone following it is an idiot. I'm going to try to get the other side of the story from those who advocate the 130 lb loops. Everyone here seems to use them only because they've been told to (myself included).
...declare whatever they want to be the standard?
How come the FAA regulations governing sailplane and hang glider aerotowing mandate 0.8 to 2.0 times maximum certified operating weight?
Any possibility 130 is just something some moron pulled out of his ass and a bunch of other morons just started mimicking what they were seeing?
We were thinking and talking...
Talking anyway.
...about weaklinks the other day here at Quest Air...
So much for thinking.
...given all the discussion about them on the Tow Group:
Yeah. THE Tow Group. Peter Birren's private little cult.
...on the Oz Report forum...
Davis Straub's private little cult.
...and in the Oz Report since the Worlds (search for '"Volume 9" weaklinks' in the Oz Report search box).
For more mind-bogglingly clueless rot than one could debunk in two lifetimes.
Steve Kroop, Bob Lane, and Rhett Radford...
Fuck Steve Kroop, Bob Lane, and Rhett Radford and the horses they rode in on.
...decided to do a few quick and dirty tests just to see if a looped 130 lbs test line (IGFA DACRON TROLLING LINE) would hold 260 pounds with or without tying the loop so that the knot was "hidden."
Why bother?
- The standard in the US is 130 pound test line in one loop with a Fisherman's Knot.
- If you read Quest's Aerotow FAQs...
When attaching the weak link to the bridle, position the knot so that it's hidden from the main tension in the link and excluded altogether from the equation.
Bobby's a fucking genius when it comes to this shit.
...(who's a fucking genius when it comes to this shit) what the strengths for loops with hidden and visible knots were?
We looped one end of a weaklink loop to the loop of a spectra bridle (part of a pro-tow and available here at Quest Air) and the other end to a loop of webbing approximately as thick as the loops that you would find on the shoulders of your harness.
Yeah, you sure wouldn't wanna have a release on both shoulders and put the weak link between the bridle and release. Assholes.
Tying the spectra to the hang gliding real life simulator outside the Quest Air and Flytec office entrance, Steve Kroop, and then Rhett Radford, slowly raised themselves up from a seated position by slowly pulling on the loop.
Quest Air has been involved in perfecting aerotowing for nearly twenty years...
When you're in the business of perfecting aerotowing equipment you only want the very best of testing equipment and procedures.
The weaklink broke before they were able to get their weigh off the ground. Steve and Rhett are quite a bit less than 200 pounds.
Great data guys. I'm really impressed. How long was it after the Egyptians finished building the Great Pyramids did your ancestors start thinking about venturing down from the trees?
How 'bout this idea...
Stand on a bathroom scale (spring, not digital), put a foot in a sling coming off the weak link, watch the scale while slowly transferring weight, note the reading at the blow point, subtract that reading from your weight?
Oh right. That involves third grade arithmetic skills. Never mind.
The weaklink broke whether the knot was hidden or not.
You probably just didn't hide it well enough. Maybe Cortland sells a camouflage version of its fishing line.
What did you think of Dr. Trisa Tilletti's article in the 2012/06 issue of the magazine in which they claim that if you do a really good job of hiding the knot the loop will hold to 260 pounds?
Therefore I assume that the single loop of 130 lbs test line is providing a weaklink strength of about 1/2 G, about 120-150 pounds.
So:
- all gliders weigh about 240 to 300 pounds?
- I'm guessing that, since our expectation of this most sacred of all weak links is that it break as early as possible in lockout situations but be strong and reliable enough to avoid frequent breaks from turbulence, it should be no problem whatsoever for it to detect the mass of the glider it's protecting - from 240 to 300 pounds - and adjust its performance accordingly?
- if you total fucking assholes are calling this loop of fishing line about 135 pounds, plus or minus fifteen pounds, isn't this statement:
A few weeks later I was speaking with Rhett Radford at Wallaby Ranch about weaklinks and the issue of more powerful engines, and he felt that stronger weaklinks (unlike those used at Wallaby or Quest) were needed. He suggested between five and ten pounds of additional breaking strength.
made nearly half a dozen years prior to your precision hanging-people-from-the-loop-and-guessing tests, even more stunningly moronic than it first appears?
- Why do you think the Sacred Greenspot got so much stronger between the time you did this precision testing and...
If the Greenspot is about 180 - 200 pounds which as I recall is what we found at Quest Air (not 125 lbs), well you can see the numbers above.
Davis Straub - 2009/04/26 22:15:56 UTC
Yup, at least 175 pounds- single loop of Cortland Greenspot 130 pounds test.
That was one end of the loop in a barrel release where the edges are a bit sharper than where I normally connect the weaklink loop with cloth loops at both ends.
I was jumping a bit so it is more than 175 pounds. Maybe 200+.
...when you were babbling incoherently in your "discussion" with me a little over four years later?
Rhett remembers earlier tests which showed the strength of 135 lbs braided fishing line at 180-200 lbs.
Does Rhett "remember" the manufacturer and how the weak link was configured? That would help make this information slightly less useless than it is now.
There is one additional strand on the end of the v-bridle at the Dragonfly side.
- Is this Dragonfly in addition to the Dragonfly on the other END of the towline? If so what's its purpose?
- Or do you just use it alone and tow sideways?
- I thought you used TWO additional strands on the Dragonfly...
Steve Kroop - Russell Brown - Bob Lane - Jim Prahl - Campbell Bowen
The tail section of the Dragonfly is designed so that it can accept in-line as well as lateral loads. Furthermore the mast extension, which is part of the tow system, is designed to break away in the event of excessive in-line or lateral loads. The force required to cause a breakaway is roughly equivalent to the force required to break the double weaklink used on the tail bridle.
Did you hafta dumb it down 'cause you were losing tow masts at a rate roughly equivalent to the rate at which you were blowing weak links?
I assume...
Yeah Davis. You fucking assholes do a lot of that.
...that we don't want to have a stronger weaklink at the pilot side relative to the Dragonfly side.
Why don't you read AND FOLLOW...
FAR 91.309(a)(3)(ii)
A safety link is installed at the point of attachment of the towline to the towing aircraft with a breaking strength greater, but not more than 25 percent greater, than that of the safety link of the towed glider or unpowered ultralight vehicle end of the towline and not greater than twice the maximum certificated operating weight of the glider or unpowered ultralight vehicle.
...the goddam REGULATIONS? That way you won't hafta ASSUME so much about what "WE" want and don't want.
Still, given these results I think I'll test two loops and see if it can hold my weight.
What POSSIBLE use could that be as long as your shitheaded buddies have the tow mast set to fail at the same load that blows the double loop?
I assume...
Big fuckin' surprise.
...that 1 G or so breaking would be enough to provide a reasonable margin of safety in the event that I came off the cart and plowed in.
- Upon what are you basing that assumption?
- How:
-- 'bout doing a few test plow-ins off the cart with weak links of various ratings and getting back to us with the results?
-- reasonable do you think the safety margin:
--- would be plowing in off the cart with a half G weak link?
--- is plowing in off the cart off tow?
A few years back a friend who had good landing skills missed ONE. Stuck his speed bar in the dirt and whacked hard. He swung through the control bar and hit the top of his helmet on the keel buckling his neck. He was a quadriplegic for eight months before committing suicide. Would wheels have worked? YES - no debate by those who were there and witnessed the accident.
free flight landing plow-in?
-- fucking stupid do you need to be to be talking about:
--- safety margins on plow ins?
--- good weak link G ratings for plowing in coming off the cart...
The tug pilots wanted 80 kilogram weaklinks on the pilot end and that is EXACTLY what they got.
Until you get fucking Bill Moyes, fucking Bobby Bailey, and the rest of these fucking idiot tug drivers under control there's no point whatsoever in testing material.
They use four strands (to six strand for heavy pilots) in Australia of this line.
Using heavier weak links for heavier gliders? What a strange and confusing practice.
Pilots must use weaklinks provided by the meet organizers and in a manner approved by the meet organizers. All weaklinks will be checked and use of inappropriate weaklinks will require the pilot to go to the end of the launch line to change the weaklink.
Weaklinks will consist of a single loop of Cortland 130 lb Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line and should be placed at one end of a shoulder bridle.
So much easier just to put everyone up on a standard aerotow weak link and letting them fend for themselves.
Your weak link comments are dead on. I have been reading the weak link discussion in the Oz Report with quiet amusement. Quiet, because weak links seem to be one of those hot button issues that brings out the argumentative nature of HG pilots and also invokes the "not designed here" mentality and I really did not want to get drawn into a debate. Amusement, because I find it odd that there was so much ink devoted to reinventing the wheel.
It's no mystery.
It's only a mystery why people choose to reinvent the wheel when we've got a proven system that works.
Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 14:04:52 UTC
We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year.
It's a total mystery to me why anyone would choose to reinvent the wheel when we've got a proven system that works.
I had always assumed that it was weaker than the line used in the US, just because they used more of it. Four stands were supposed to be at least 190 pounds, so it does seem to be weaker.
If they've used more of it it's got a longer track record. So that's obviously the route we should be taking.
Follow up: Steve Kroop, Rhett Radford and I went out again and tested four strands of this line. Steve was able to lift his 185 lbs off the ground, and when I added a very small bit of tugging (slowly) on the line, it broke. Say 200 pounds. Four strands, still less than I G (300 pounds).
The force required to cause a breakaway is roughly equivalent to the force required to break the double weaklink used on the tail bridle.
...the standard Dragonfly weak link and tow mast breakaway value were set like a decade and a half before anyone had the slightest fucking clue as to the strength of a double loop of 130 pound Greenspot?
And here I was thinking that...
Dr. Trisa Tilletti - 2012/06
What we have covered in this article is practical information and knowledge gleaned from the real world of aerotowing, developed over decades and hundreds of thousands of tows by experts in the field. This information has practical external validity.
...these standards were based on practical information and knowledge gleaned from the real world of aerotowing, developed over decades and hundreds of thousands of tows by experts in the field, and had practical external validity instead of stuff a bunch of total morons pulled out of their asses.
Could be a lot worse. Could be Stuart Caruk, Ridgefield, Washington.
Would just like to make a point about the variability of string weak links. Last weekend a group of us were towing and I took the opportunity to test the weak link strength i.e. tie off to tree and creep the car forward and measure when the weak link breaks.
For four stands of number 8 builders twine:
roll 1, brand A broke at ~ 070 kg
roll 2, brand A broke at ~ 100 kg
roll 1, brand B broke at ~ 120 kg
Conclusion each batch varies, each brand varies so measure what you have.
- Why? You can just declare values two suit whatever position you're advocating at the moment. That practice has a very long track record. It's a total mystery to me why anyone would choose to reinvent the wheel when we've got a proven system that works.
- Thanks Stuart. Now test the theory under which we're operating 'cause it doesn't do much good to know string strengths until you understand that the morons running this show are using a "theory" which is putting us up at third or less of what we need to tow safely.
Kent Robinson - 2005/03/02
It wasn't 100% clear to me how the bridle was configured for the weak link test you describe.
It shoulda been.
Was the pro tow hooked to one side only so that all the stress was on the weak link?
Davis Straub - 2005/03/02
The answer is yes.
You couldn't have just said "Yes"?
We were "measuring" the strength of the weaklink...
We were "measuring" the strength of the weaklink. This is a revolutionary new procedure developed as an alternative to the time honored standard of "assuming" the strength of the weaklink.
...not the "weaklink in it's bridle configuration." The force on the weaklink if the configuration of the protow is about cut in half, but it can be up to the full force if the bridle is very short.
Concussions are in fact very serious and have life long effects. The last time I was knocked out what in 9th grade football. I have felt the effects of that ever since. It changes your wiring.
- I keep trying to explain to you that there's MORE loading on the weak link as you shorten the bridle - not more.
- Show me a one point bridle so short that the weak link is feeling an increase over half the towline tension worth mentioning.
- Idiot.
Peter Birren - 2005/03/02
1G is a good starting point for considering full-strength weaklinks.
Yeah? WHY?
It's the TNE (Tension not to exceed) ceiling...
Why?
What happens if you exceed it? How come sailplane manufacturers specify 1.3 to 1.4 times max certified operating weight? How come for sailplanes and hang gliders the FAA caps it at twice max certified operating weight?
The FAA mandates a MINIMUM of 0.8 times max certified operating weight. AT BEST the Tension Never to Exceed is only 0.2 Gs over the Tension Never to Drop Below. AT BEST that's a pretty narrow range.
Say I'm in the middle of the hook-in weight range of a Sport 2 155 - flying weight 260 pounds. I can't exceed 260 pounds and, since the max certified operating weight is 310 pounds, the FAA won't let me up at under 248. So I'm shooting for 254 pounds - plus or minus 6 pounds / 2.4 percent. What kind of fishing line should I use, Peter?
Say I'm flying at the bottom end of my Sport 2 155. I can't go above 210 or below 248. What kind of fishing line should I use for that, Peter? Maybe some of that 130 pound Greenspot and just call it whatever strength is most convenient at the time - the way everybody else does?
...as suggested by Hewett.
Upon what is this SUGGESTION based? I've never really understood. Oh well, I guess if a physics professor pulls a nice round number out of his ass we should just go with it.
For those of you who know Tad from before his recent notes, sorry to say but he's gone... and banned from this list (not really sorry but it's polite to say). I deleted a note from earlier this morning -- typically Tad: long-winded and way off topic, mostly insulting me, Stu and anyone who dares disagree with him or who offers an alternate (usually experienced) opinion -- and told him privately that bullying will not be tolerated. His 2-word response got him the boot.
Just two words.
In practice, my 130 lbs 4-strand loops break very consistently at 230-235 lbs which is 90% of the total weight (I'm 170 lbs ).
Yeah? What glider are you flying? That's all we need to know and you're not telling us. But that DOES reconfirm that you have no fuckin' clue what a weak link is and lets us know that it's a real good bet that you're flying under the legal minimum.
And I'm having a little trouble understanding why somebody who's won a Nobel Prize for his release and can blow tow with little more than a mere thought is really all that concerned with weak links anyway.
A heavier pilot using this line will prematurely break it with some regularity.
- Yeah, but who ever heard of anyone crashing because of a weak link failure?
-- No, I don't mean someone who wasn't flying perfectly and thus deserved to crash.
-- Well if he launched into something like that or got behind a lead footed driver he wasn't doing everything right, was he?
- Good to know that you're using a weak link with a wide enough safety margin that it DOESN'T break with some regularity.
I'm thinkin'...
No you're not, Peter. Never have been and never will be.
...80% of 1G = a light weaklink; 90% = average; 100% = strong.
See? Told ya so.
0.2 Gs between light and strong on a glider certified to six Gs. And the regulations specify a range that starts at or above the same bottom as yours and extend upwards six times your range. Un fucking believable.
More than 1G and some problems might start creeping in.
Fer sure! The weak link might not meet our expectation that it break as early as possible in lockout situations. We might hafta start THINKING about having to use releases in situations other than normal separations at altitude and...
Imagine if you will, just coming off the cart and center punching a thermal which takes you instantly straight up while the tug is still on the ground. Know what happens? VERY high towline forces and an over-the-top lockout. You'll have both hands on the basetube pulling it well past your knees but the glider doesn't come down and still the weaklink doesn't break (.8G). So you pull whatever release you have but the one hand still on the basetube isn't enough to hold the nose down and you pop up and over into an unplanned semi-loop. Been there, done that... at maybe 200 feet agl.
...the implications of not being able to hold a glider under control with one hand and possible downsides of low altitude unplanned semi-loops.
Can you think of any possible problems that might start creeping in at under the rating of a one G stronglink?
1G is equal to the full hookin weight of the pilot plus the glider, about 300 pounds (270 pounds for Peter). So the four strand 130# line would be about 77% of a G (or less with a heavier pilot and/or glider) assuming I'm the pilot. If it was on the end of a properly sized protow bridle it would be about 1.5 G.
- I beg to differ.
Quest Air
For tandems, either two loops (four strands) of the same line or one loop of a stronger line is usually used to compensate for nearly twice the wing loading.
If a comp pilot is using a double loop (4 strands), then their weaklink is not weaker and perhaps even stronger than the one at the tug. It is common for tugs to have 4 strands (double loop) of 130 line, which is 520 lbs.
Dr. Trisa Tilletti - 2012/06
This can be adjusted up or down a bit for performance and to stay within FAA requirements, but is convenient because a double loop of 130 lb. green spot line can be used to make a 520 lb. weak link.
Sure, Steve Kroop, Rhett Radford, and you (and I) may have found a double loop of 130 pound Greenspot to blow at around 200 pounds ON THE GROUND. HOWEVER...
Dr. Trisa Tilletti - 2012/06
We could get into details of lab testing weak links and bridles, but this article is already getting long. That would be a good topic for an article in the future. Besides, with our backgrounds in formal research, you and I both know that lab tests may produce results with good internal validity, but are often weak in regard to external validity--meaning lab conditions cannot completely include all the factors and variability that exists in the big, real world.
With our backgrounds in formal research, you and I both know that lab tests may produce results with good internal validity, but are often weak in regard to external validity--meaning lab conditions cannot completely include all the factors and variability that exists in the big, real world.
Dr. Trisa Tilletti - 2012/06
What we have covered in this article is practical information and knowledge gleaned from the real world of aerotowing, developed over decades and hundreds of thousands of tows by experts in the field. This information has practical external validity.
And based on practical information and knowledge gleaned from the real world of aerotowing, developed over decades and hundreds of thousands of tows by experts in the field at professional operations like Quest, Cloud 9, and Ridgely a double loop of 130 pound Greenspot blows at 520 pounds and if it were on the end of a properly sized protow bridle it would be about 3.5 Gs. That would be illegal and totally insane!
Good thing we have safety minded, responsible, professional tug pilots like Bobby Bailey...
During the US Nationals I wrote a bit about weaklinks and the gag weaklinks that someone tied at Quest Air. A few days after I wrote about them, Bobby Bailey, designer and builder of the Bailey-Moyes Dragon Fly tug, approached me visibly upset about what I and James Freeman had written about weaklinks. He was especially upset that I had written that I had doubled my weaklink after three weaklinks in a row had broken on me.
...(a fucking genius when it comes to this shit) and Jim Rooney...
Hahahahahahahahaha
Oh that's just rich!
Riiiiiight... it's my attention span at issue here....
and I'm the one that's arrogant!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA
No, I'm not being nice. No, I do not feel the need to be nice. You're trying to convince people to be less safe. I don't want to be on the other end of the rope when someone listening to this drivel smashes in.
I've heard it a million times before from comp pilots insisting on towing with even doubled up weaklinks (some want no weaklink). I tell them the same thing I'm telling you... suck it up. You're not the only one on the line. I didn't ask to be a test pilot. I can live with your inconvenience.
...(who has a very keen intellect) to keep us from flying double loop 3.5 G weak links.
We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year. Russell Brown (tug pilot, tug owner, Quest Air owner) said go ahead and double up (four strands of Cortland Greenspot).
The carnage that would result from such folly would be unimaginable.
- Define a "properly sized" "protow" bridle.
Ron Gleason, having just taken his sailplane written test, reminds me that the rope connected to the tug is supposed to be between 80% and 200% of the weight of the sailplane loaded. Not less than .8G. Not over 2G.
Yeah Davis. And if you read the fine print you'll notice that that applies to hang gliders too.
But anybody in a sailplane or hang glider who'd go using the towline as a weak link instead of taking the option of using weak links at both ends - something midrange on the back and something a bit stronger on the front - is a total moron.
Raymond Caux - 2005/03/09
French national team member
In the past month, I have occasionally read the Oz Report to see what was written about the Worlds in general, and Robin in particular. I feel like he's dying another time...
He is. But he changed his name to Steve Elliot and the industry machinery has gotten a lot better at downplaying these events.
...as I don't find much respect in the Oz Report about his memory.
He didn't finish in any of the top three places. Just how much respect were you expecting him to get in the Oz Report?
The stress is put on his pig headedness...
In no small part for refusing to get on an unstable cart and hook himself up using a weak link about half the strength of what Lord Davis recently pronounced to be the new world standard for all solo gliders.
That's 'cause you're not Davis or on his few select others list.
...so I don't claim to know the only truth...
He died because he used a stronglink. Keep It Simple, Stupid.
...but I knew Robin from an aerobatics seminar a couple of months sooner. Of course, he was a little stubborn, but very experienced in being towed and towing himself.
Which would explain his refusal to get on an unstable cart and hook himself up using a Local Rules precision weak link.
Just one thing doesn't look important, and it could: the wind direction. Robin could be still here if he'd launched straight into the wind.
No way, dude. Once there's a stronglink at your end of the towline there's virtually no possibility of surviving a tow under any circumstances.
Now, let's talk about all the points:
A good helmet is probably useless at that speed.
Probably? I'd say it was astonishing that there was anybody at that event stupid enough to even mention the issue but... It isn't.
The Wichard release has to be used with metal rings...
No. It doesn't. A ring shouldn't be for one point and can't be for two point. And the spinnaker shackle shouldn't be used for one point AT ALL.
...and the tube and parachute pin release is now cheaper...
But I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use two hands to get the pin out of the barrel.
No stress because I was high.
If it's more simple that ALWAYS automatically means it's more effective and reliable.
Thanks just the same, Raymond, but I'll take a spinnaker shackle anytime anywhere before I'll go up with ANY piece of shit in whose "design" Bobby, Matt, or Davis have had any influence whatsoever.
Too strong a weak link is like no weak link.
- Too strong a weak link is TOTALLY IRRELEVANT if:
-- there's a weak link on the tug end which regularly blows at normal tow tensions
-- the tension never exceeds that required to blow too light a weak link
-- the glider's not damaged before it hits the ground
-- you:
--- have a release that doesn't stink on ice
--- kill yourself on impact on a blown dolly launch
- ANY weak link is TOTALLY IRRELEVANT if you're in a low level lockout and no matter what you do - stay on tow, wait for your Bobby Link to blow, instantly let go of the four-string trigger line in your teeth - you're gonna hit the ground hard enough to kill yourself two or three times over. That may have been the case at the point Robin started reaching for his release actuator.
- NO weak link is at least a:
-- thousand times safer than too weak a weak link
-- million times safer than ANY weak link which snags a spinnaker shackle gate
- As much as people from the safety of their keyboards will praise the standard aerotow weak link and unmercifully attack any heretic who suggests anything ten pounds heavier, NOBODY takes off...
is thinking there's such an animal as too strong a weak link.
With a balanced glider, he would be here too.
A good dolly balances the hell out of a glider.
Foot launching is an option with crosswind when not accustomed to dolly, as the glider nose turns towards the tug with speed.
- Fuck foot launched aerotow.
- Nobody needs to be a accustomed to a dolly. If you can foot launch you'll find a dolly to be a hundred times easier and safer.
- If you have a lot of crosswind either abort the tow before you get airborne or just keep the glider level when you do get airborne and wait for the problem to fix itself.
Robin had a pig head.
Not a fraction as much as the total assholes behind whom he was towing and not necessarily in a bad way.
Sure he was the only one around.
If I were around most of the people involved in that event I'd wanna leave as soon as possible and take a bath.
Other points: I was there for my second Worlds only, but have been in international competitions since 1993.
There was an ambulance at every club competition.
I like that idea.
- Somebody foot launches 'cause the carts all suck, uses a crappy release 'cause the releases all suck, and uses a weak link configuration pretty much guaranteed to bind up.
- He hits the ground not so hard that he kills himself one, two, or three times over but hard enough such that he's not gonna survive the trip to the hospital without benefit of medical professionals and good life support equipment.
- He's got it right there.
Or if it's a mountain competition where nobody's requiring or doing or hook-in checks...
Might not be a bad idea to have ambulances on standby every five or ten miles along the course as well.
It's SO much easier, cheaper, better, smarter to do the jobs right right than to try to optimize the situation for someone critically injured after obvious and easily preventable mistakes have been made, for someone who's life will almost certainly have been destroyed even if it is saved.
- Lose the fucking ambulances.
- Everybody's flying with seven thousand dollar gliders, twenty-five hundred dollar harnesses, two hundred and fifty dollar helmets, eight hundred dollar parachutes, fifteen hundred dollar instrument decks, three hundred dollar radios, and cheap Flight Park Mafia shit for release systems.
- DEMAND four hundred dollar, top quality, built in, full release systems from the negligent fucking glider manufacturers and require them on all gliders.
- Station somebody at launch to make sure that nobody who wants to finish the competition leaves the ramp without a hook-in check five seconds prior.
- Make good wheels mandatory on all gliders, require everybody to film their landings, disqualify anyone who foot lands.
In the past years, the French team decided it was too tiring to move car towing lines with the wind and aerotowing was worth it, because you just turn without moving. Who could have imagined we would move together with the cartowing lines?
The flatland was too small.
The team leaders pointed out many mistakes to the meet director before the first day, nothing changed, all the problems happened.
Then, as if we needed any more evidence, the meet director was the BIGGEST problem in that total clusterfuck of an exercise.
Last point: we didn't take part in the official protest about the wrong goal, as it was too much in our interest.
In other words, winning was more important than fairness.
On the second day, when I arrived at the front of the line with 90 degree crosswind, there were two flipped gliders in front of me, I said "I don't want to be killed, I want to launch in the wind."
If you didn't wanna be killed then why did you show up at an event over which Bill, Bobby, and Davis had influence?
Ali had me apologize, because it wasn't the crew's fault.
Yeah, nothing's ever anyone's fault besides the person with the glider. Anyone who believes otherwise should stay home and play checkers.
Finally I moved to the left, the tug moved to the right, and the wind turned less crossing.
You had a thing and it broke needlessly.
You didn't want the thing to break needlessly.
You replaced the thing with a stronger thing.
Now the thing doesn't break needlessly.
All the members of the organising team were very kind...
So was Rob Kells - he was a "friend" to every "pilot" he met. If Rob had adopted the release system technology I tried to GIVE him the other manufacturers - including assholes like Bill Moyes - would've had no choice but to follow suit and fast. (It sure didn't take long for all competition gliders to start looking like Comets after it came out in 1979). But Rob was too much of a friend to his pin bending dealerships to do anything ethical - if he hadn't been Robin would've had a release that actually worked when he needed it to.
What was really needed at that clusterfuck was not any fake, empty kindness. What was needed was competence and integrity and the nastiness to force it into place.
- Those carts caster at launch speeds. Disassemble them and put them back on the trucks. No, you can't foot launch. Takes five hours to launch everybody on the two carts that are any good? Yeah. And...?
- No, you can't launch with that crap you have on your shoulders. If I see it again within three hundred yards of launch this competition is over as far as you're concerned. Sorry, that's not my problem.
- Guys, we seem to have a situation with our tug drivers. They refuse to keep their weak links over the mandatory one-point-fives on the gliders. So I guess everybody will be surface towing until that problem gets sorted out.
- OK, fine. I'll resign and start working on my letter to the FAI.
...and one can understand that apologizing could mean accept some responsibility, which is terribly dangerous today.
Got that bloody right. The silence from Bill Moyes and Bobby Bailey was deafening and has remained so in the near eight years since.
And we sure don't wanna ground, replace, improve any deadly shit equipment 'cause that would be an admission that we were selling people deadly shit equipment. So let's just ramp up the campaign to portray Robin as a lunatic stronglinker who was an accident waiting to happen.
Campaigns like that have NEVER been much of a problem.
But they could keep a low profile and stop answering with arrogance to the many wise critics. Please respect Robin.
What would their incentive be? They have every motivation to stay on message and course.
This is just a personal opinion...
Nah, it's a lot more than a personal opinion.
...and doesn't mean the rest of the team agrees with me.
Then fuck the rest of the team. I notice I haven't heard much useful noise on this issue and none of them have done shit in the years since to help get safe weak links and releases that don't stink on ice into the air.
I've found your posts on both hook-in checks and releases very interesting and well thought out.
Best of luck dealing with the Oz Report forum cult and its leader.
...and its leader.
Dead men don't need our condolences or sympathies.
No, like Raymond and I have just said, they need the precise opposite in order to best protect the industry from liability issues.
Live pilots need our best thinking...
They need something a helluva a lot better than...
Concussions are in fact very serious and have life long effects. The last time I was knocked out what in 9th grade football. I have felt the effects of that ever since. It changes your wiring.
...YOUR best "thinking", Davis.
...about how the dead men killed themselves...
Fuck you, Davis. Robin had PLENTY of help getting killed at that pecker measuring contest of yours.
There's damn near ALWAYS *TONS* of blame to go around when somebody gets killed in this shit sport. And this shit sport ALWAYS does EVERYTHING it possibly can to make sure it never gets properly attributed.
...so that they can keep from making the same mistakes.
Bullshit. You motherfuckers don't help people keep from making the same mistakes. You make the mistakes standard operating procedures and equipment and focus on training people how they can most effectively make the same mistakes to create the illusion that they're not mistakes.
The best memorial to a pilot who has died in an unfortunate accident is to see what we can do to make things safer.
WE? Who the fuck is "WE", Davis? Name one goddam thing anybody sleazy enough to have any association whatsoever with you has done to make any aspect of this sport SAFER - rather than your specialty which is to keep it as dangerous as possible or more so whenever the opportunity presents itself.
I have provided in the Oz Report a very lengthy series of articles on weaklinks, bridles, ropes, and carts.
Damn near all of them ten miles south of totally clueless.
I have worked closely with David Glover and Steve Kroop to make sure that the lessons learned at the Worlds are applied to their upcoming five competitions including two Worlds.
The only way a meeting involving Dave Glover, Steve Kroop, and you could've done any good would've been if all three of you had been taken out by one Hellfire missile.
I believe in doing something useful with one's grief.
- You believe in WHO doing something useful? It's pretty fucking obvious you never have or ever will do anything approaching useful.
- Who's grief? The only grief you ever feel or express is triggered by a round getting scrubbed or canceled.
I have the video of Robin's accident.
That's great, Davis. Always good to see someone as qualified and deserving as you to gaining control of one of the more critical pieces of evidence from a fatal hang gliding incident in which two people were directly involved. Reminds me a lot of the way Jon Orders had control over the better of the two videos of the Lenami Godinez-Avila fatality for six days while it was moving through his digestive tract.
I and a few select others have gone over it frame by frame and come up with an analysis of the accident.
- Who selected these few OTHERS?
- Were they selected from the same patch of the gene pool which perpetrated the 2005 Worlds on the competitors?
- What were their qualifications? Really good brick line tiers, pin benders, and polypro stretchers?
- Were their qualifications up to the level of your qualifications?
- I guess this list of a Few Select Others is too long to be included in this post.
- Any chance that any of these Few Select Others would have conflict of interest issues regarding the content of this analysis?
Use a ninety meter tow rope which will allow the glider pilot twice as much time to react/release in the event of an emergency, as a sixty meter rope. I showed on the whiteboard these angles verses distance?
Outcome:
Sadly, we tried to put our ninety meter ropes (which we had prepared before the meet) on Bill's tugs but he said no way and reportedly cut them off his tugs. On the positive side, all the trikes used ninety meter ropes from day one, as past accidents have taught the aerotowing community this lesson before.
...and was using a short towline which cut Robin's useable response time in half one of the Few Select Others?
I am currently not free to publish the images...
- Why not?
- Whose images are they?
- I'da thunk that the Anonymous Cameraman from behind launch would've wanted these images to get as widely circulated as possible so that people other than the Select Few Others could do their own analyses and better understand what happened and why.
- Or did the Anonymous Cameraman have some conflict of interest issues and concerns about the outcomes of independent analyses?
- Or was the Anonymous Cameraman gotten to by someone with some conflict of interest issues and concerns about the outcomes of independent analyses?
...and I await permission before I publish them and the accompanying analysis.
When do you think it'll be granted? It's getting pretty close to eight years now and there've been a lot of nasty aerotow crashes and five more fatalities since Robin's.
Maybe we could just get the analysis while we're awaiting PERMISSION.
By the way the conditions referred to above played no role in Robin's accident.
Well, until we get the video I guess we'll just hafta take your word for it, Davis - barring any differences of opinion from any of the Select Few Others.
Photo by Carol Binder or Olli Barthelmes:
of Robin's Memorial Service at Hay (which I did not attend).
That's OK, Davis. I'm sure you were tied up with the Select Few Others analyzing the video frame by frame, working closely with David Glover and Steve Kroop to make sure that the lessons learned at the Worlds are applied to their upcoming five competitions, giving live pilots your best thinking about how the dead man killed himself so that they can keep from making the same mistakes. The best memorial to a pilot who has died in an unfortunate accident is to see what we can do to make things safer.
My sincere condolences to Robin's family, team, friends, and countrymen.
No, it's my main release used identically for aerotowing and static line. Placed on the weaklink between towline and bridle, when it cuts the weaklink there is nothing left to do except roll up the bridle.
I don't understand how a Linknife placed at the towline could be used with an opening bridle. Isn't Peter referring to a closed bridle in this case?
Yeah, Peter's referring to a closed bridle in ALL cases.
He's convinced himself that if you release a one or two point bridle end when the glider's not parked dead center in the Cone of Safety there's a fifty/fifty chance it'll tie itself to a nose wire and you'll be dragged sideways to your death within three to five seconds.
The fact that with the tens of thousands of bozos using junk equipment making millions of tows in any kind of air you wanna name over the past couple of decades this has NEVER - and pretty much CAN'T - happen doesn't seem to bother him in the least.
We have untold scores of problems with shoddy equipment and practices in aerotowing and he's gotta dedicate his life to fixing ones we don't have.
This phobia has its origin - I have little doubt - in a flight his Patron Saint Donnell took on 1982/10/23. He was towing in a strong crosswind and crabbing his glider to stay straight behind and got tangled in his deadly rat's nest of a bridle release system and was lucky to come out alive.
It's been 10-15 mph out of the east with beautiful cu's every day for the last few days, but on Friday, the winds died down and we were ready of another attempt at breaking the 100 km triangle speed record (44.3 kmh). Paul Tjaden...
I have never had a lockout situation happen so quickly and dramatically and had no chance to release as I have always thought I could do.
Paul Tjaden?
...and I decided to fly together to help each other out...
Yeah, I'm sure you guys are GREAT at helping each other out.
...and perhaps speed things up. The course started at Quest Air.
Name something that DOESN'T start at Quest Air.
The first turnpoint was 23 miles due west at a former grass airstrip just north of the intersection of highway 50 and Interstate 75. Then 20 miles northeast to Coleman, with 23 miles back to Quest.
The cu's started looking good at around 1 PM and I was second off. A second or two after I came off the cart I was yanked straight up in a strong thermal and the weaklink immediately broke. I have never experienced any lift that strong so close to the ground.
Dennis Pagen - 2005/01
I am personally familiar with such a problem, because it happened to me at a meet in Texas. Soon after lift-off the trike tug and I were hit by the mother of all thermals. Since I was much lighter, I rocketed up well above the tug, while the very experienced tug pilot, Neal Harris, said he was also lifted more than he had ever been in his heavy trike.
I'm willing to put the barrel release within a few inches of my hand.
Your Davis Release was within a few inches of your hand. Why did you hafta wait for your Davis Link to do your job for you?
Can you imagine any similar scenarios...
Dennis Pagen - 2005/01
I didn't want to release, because I was so close to the ground and I knew that the glider would be in a compromised attitude. In addition, there were hangars and trees on the left, which is the way the glider was tending.
Dave Broyles - 1990/11
I talked to a lot of pilots at Hobbs, and the consensus was that in the course of Eric Aasletten's accident, had a weak link break occurred instead of the manual or auto release that apparently did occur, the outcome would have been the same. Under the circumstances the one thing that would have given Eric a fighting chance to survive was to have remained on the towline.
...in which it would be better to have an actual PILOT making the decision about when or whether to blow tow rather than some stupid hack seeing if a piece of fishing line will do the right thing at the right time?
I floated along for a nice soft slight downwind landing.
That's wonderful, Davis. Guess there were no hangars or trees in the direction the glider was tending.
I broke the next weaklink at 1000' again in a thermal...
I so do love flying Davis Links that go off like popcorn in thermal conditions. All the takeoff and landing practice and chatting with good company in the launch line.
Then again, Russell Brown had us double up behind him after six breaks in a row at Zapata. We couldn't figure out why we had so many breaks so quickly. Maybe just coincidence.
Probably just coincidence.
Paul was already at 5,000' under a dark cloud waiting for me to climb up. This was a great start to the day.
Yeah, I always love to start my day with two uncommanded instantaneous losses of tow tension and control of my flight too, Davis.
Fuckin' moron.
P.S. Pretty convenient the way your second Davis Link held long enough...
Weak links break for all kinds of reasons.
Some obvious, some not.
The general consensus is the age old adage... "err on the side of caution".
The frustration of a weaklink break is just that, frustration.
And it can be very frustrating for sure. Especially on a good day, which they tend to be. It seems to be a Murphy favourite. You'll be in a long tug line on a stellar day just itching to fly. The stars are all lining up when *bam*, out of nowhere your trip to happy XC land goes up in a flash. Now you've got to hike it all the way back to the back of the line and wait as the "perfect" window drifts on by.
I get it.
It can be a pisser.
But the "other side"... the not cautions one... is not one of frustration, it's one of very real danger.
Better to be frustrated than in a hospital, or worse.
No exaggeration... this is the fire that the "other side" is made of. Best not to play with it.
...to get you to workable altitude, wasn't it?
P.P.S. If you were so thrilled by the decision making ability of the 130 pound piece of fishing line...
Sure hangster, why not? All other hang gilder people just pull fishing line test strengths out of their asses, put them in the air, and find that they work well - so why should you be any different?
Just curious... Did you bother to read any of the sixty posts your initial question prompted and, if so, which one most swayed you towards that particular number when you were reaching for your ass?
Hey, here's a thought...
What does your owner's manual say you should use?
Couldn't find anything? Well give Wills Wing a call. They'd SURELY be the ones from whom you could get solid definitive information.
Oh, they told you to go with the dealership's recommendation?
Ask them whether you should use the loop of 130 pound Greenspot which blows at 130 that Lockout Mountain Flight Park recommends or the 130 pound Greenspot which blows at 260 that Cloud 9 Park recommends.
Then tell them that when they say that the responsibilities of a Wills Wing HANG GLIDER DEALER include offering competent, safe instruction in the proper and safe use of hang gliding equipment that they're even more totally full of shit than their dealerships are.
