I now realize I misinterpreted the intent of your post. But it really wasn't all that clear - especially after many years of having been deluged with crap like:Sorry if my post offended.
andMatt Pericles - 2009/08/25 00:57:41 UTC
Roswell, Georgia
I'm not sure what you thought was going to happen to Alan's connection to the glider in the ten feet between where Gordon had hang checked him and where he launched.
Tormod Helgesen - 2010/02/13 17:08:06 UTC
Oslo
I don't belive in gremlins unhooking my harness while walking to launch (usually 5-30 meters) and if my launch is interrupted I redo my check.
Did.Tad just listed many situations that could...
Or lack thereof....happen after the preflight...
Did....which could...
ALL of the examples resulted in unhooked launches....result in an unhooked launch or launching with a wrongly assembled glider.
Keep the fuckin' preflight checks isolated from the fuckin' hook-in check.JBBenson - 2009/01/25 16:27:19 UTC
I get what Tad is saying, but it took some translation:
HANG CHECK is part of the preflight, to verify that all the harness lines etc. are straight.
HOOK-IN CHECK is to verify connection to the glider five seconds before takeoff.
They are separate actions, neither interchangeable nor meant to replace one another. They are not two ways to do the same thing.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=962Mike Lake - 2012/08/01 23:40:04 UTC
The best strategy is to find ways to improve your crashes, trying to avoid them is a waste of energy. For example; don't spend time on methods to ensure you are hooked in, instead go to the gym and practice your pull-ups.
Ron Gleason - 2005/10/22 00:33:57 UTC
launching unhooked but hooking back in!
In the late Seventies or earlier Eighties, Stu Smith of North Carolina launched unhooked from either Grandfather Mountain or Lookout in Tennessee.
Stu was one of the top pilots of his time and was also a gymnast in college and I believe taught that at the college in Boone.
Stu was a small person in physical size, but larger than life to the rest of us mere mortal pilots, and that combined with his athletic prowess allowed him to climb into the control frame, stabilize the glider, hook in, and continue his flight.
I recommend that everyone practice climbing in to the control frame when you are able, for example a wonder wind or other smooth conditions that provide altitude and smooth conditions. You will be surprised by the technique needed and the ability to control glider.
No problem.Keith Skiles - 2012/08/27 23:20:54 UTC
Soddy Daisy, Tennessee
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7NurwKyyEE
Undoubtedly pretty much all in the Lookout Sphere of Influence. So it's really hard to imagine that...So, I've been flying for three years now, primarily radial ramps, with some aerotowing.
...your training has been lacking in any really important areas.Keith Skiles - 2011/06/02 19:50:13 UTC
I witnessed the one at Lookout. It was pretty ugly. Low angle of attack, too much speed and flew off the cart like a rocket until the weak link broke, she stalled and it turned back towards the ground.
Mr. Clark Harlow, whose son, a day shy of his eighteenth birthday, was engaging in the local sport of seeing how for down the ramp one could leave mountain bike skid marks. Unfortunately he had his uphill pedal in the down position during the sideways skid - opposite from the way you're supposed to it - and he never turned eighteen.I've always felt like I did decent radial ramp launches, but this is the first time I've had a video of it. Thanks to Mr. Clark Harlow's death defying acrobatics of hanging off the side of the ramp at Henson's Gap, I now have a video of my launch.
Wire guys are for wimps. Get rid of him next time.This was midday about a week ago, with pretty much nil wind to speak of. You'll also note Mr. PJWings on my right wire, and a distinct lack of a keel guy.I could've done without a wire guy, but there were occasional thermals blowing through, and just prior to that launch I had to set the glider down due to the sudden gusty winds.
Doesn't really matter, Keith. For the purpose of the exercise you were dead when you started your forward momentum at 0:07.My own critique is that I do switch grips partway through the launch, but I seem to maintain the nose angle through the switch.
Who cares? Nobody even mentions anything about Bill Priday's pitch or roll control or the quality of his run at Whitwell across the valley and to your left when on 2005/10/01 he started his launch the same way you did.I probably could have attempted to take one more step on the ramp before I kicked into my harness. And lastly, I probably dove a little too much, likely wouldn't have got away with that at LMFP.
Maybe michael170 will have a word or two for you.Anyway, anyone have any other critique to add?
Congratulations on your Cliff Launch Special Skill signoff.-
Airborne Sting 2 154XC
H2, FL, CL, FSL, AT
Oh look! Indeed he does!michael170 - 2012/08/27 23:51:59 UTC
Seems to do some sort of fidgeting at about ten seconds. What's your point?Take a look at the first few seconds of this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KlcXmWi7ig
Do you notice anything significant happening just prior to launch?
Why should he have HAD to say anything - ASSHOLE?Ryan Voight - 2012/08/28 01:06:07 UTC
Michael means to kindly recommend doing a hook-in check just prior to launching. Why he didn't just say that, I don't know.
FUCK YOU, RYAN. *NOTHING* else in that video matters.BACK TO THE VIDEO THAT MATTERS-
Save it.It's hard to be analytical of GoPro/fisheye footage...
Bullshit.Guest - 2012/08/28 02:19:55 UTC
No need to be too critical here.
For the purpose of the exercise that's ALL he's hanging from.You could have run a bit longer- to 'pedal air, but it looked okay from here. The shallow dive Clark commented on was probably excessive, but you'll see a lot of the (frequent flying) Lookout pilots doing that on the light days, and that's okay! Just don't dive into the treetops!
Say, you're not hanging from your downtubes, are you?
Yeah, right. That's exactly what Bill was saying to himself as he was hanging from his downtubes.Why not take a step or two closer to the red line before your run begins, and use the steeper portion of the ramp to accelerate more easily? In this case, gravity is your friend.
Assuming one is hooked in - which nobody SHOULD but damn near everyone DOES. The things that tend to make launches really really safe for people who are connected to their gliders tend to do the precise opposite for people who aren't.There are a few Lookout pilots that think the Henson's red line needs to be moved a couple of feet forward, but we're spoiled. Steeper ramp good, shallower ramp bad.
And never repeat the launch you just did at Henson unless you have all of your affairs in order.Next time you're at Lookout, check out the Bandit launch, if you haven't yet. It's a short, steep grassy ramp (about 45 degrees) to a sheer rock face. Not a launch you want to screw up, but pretty much a no-brainer. The Bandit's great for light winds, no winds, or lightly tailing conditions. NEVER try to launch the Bandit in any winds over 10 mph, or in conditions requiring assistance.
I dunno, Keith. You could get that wing into the turbulent jet stream six inches up and there's no telling what could happen after that.Keith Skiles - 2012/08/28 04:43:23 UTCSuppose I could do that, never hurts...Michael means to kindly recommend doing a hook-in check just prior to launching.
Well you're perfectly OK then. Your rating requirements have an exemption for people who always hang check with assistance prior to stepping on the ramp and never leave their harnesses once they get in them....but I always hang check with assistance prior to stepping on the ramp, and never leave my harness once I get in it.
It was established in his loving memory with support from Paul Voight (Ryan's dad - a really great guy), Joe Greblo, Greg DeWolf, Rob McKenzie, and others too numerous to name here.United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association, Inc. - 2011/02/23
Pre Flight Safety for Hang Gliding - Revision
In loving memory of William F. Priday, 1952 - 2005:
Preflight Safety for Hang Gliding" is a new, USHPA-produced video on hang gliding safety. The video premiered at the meeting in Bend, Oregon giving directors an opportunity to review an excellent video produced, directed and edited by Greg Gillam. Paul Voight and Greg collaborated as co-writers and Paul hosted the video. Joe Greblo and Rob McKenzie provided assistance. Erika Klein and Greg DeWolf are featured in the video together with Paul. USHPA Chapters are encouraged to present the video at chapter meetings. The video is available for viewing on the USHPA website.
Who cares? He's a total idiot.AIRTHUG wrote:
And just keep assuming you're always gonna be having a choice, Keith....The more speed you create in your launch, the less "dive away" you'll need.
Gonna adjust what you're doing in the last two seconds before you start moving a foot like Michael's trying to advise you? Just kidding.Thanks for the feedback, I'll try to remember to adjust when I fly next time.
Complete hypocrite - no. Complete idiot...I'm pleased from the perspective that I know I've harped alongside you on lowering the nose angle on a radial ramp as you go down and that I finally have evidence that I'm not a complete hypocrite.
..and ignored, flagrantly violated, treated with the most rabid of contempt...michael170 - 2012/08/28 05:47:11 UTCNo, Michael means to kindly recommend compliance with USHPA regulations. Regulations that have been in place...AIRTHUG wrote:
Michael means to kindly recommend doing a hook-in check just prior to launching.
Of course not....for thirty-one years.Matters to whom? Does this video matter?BACK TO THE VIDEO THAT MATTERS!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBoXhNUjofE
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBoXhNUjofE[/video]
Irrelevant and annoying.Rate this post
The one you've skipped over every single time in the span of your miserable existence every time you've signed anybody off on a rating - One through Four.Ryan Voight - 2012/08/28 06:14:06 UTC
What USHPA reg are you referencing specifically?
Would it be pretty much entirely off topic if he had been critiquing this:And no, in a thread titled "Critique my radial ramp launch" that video is also pretty much entirely off topic.
Fuck you, Ryan.You want to discuss/debate/dictate people's pre-launch habits, great, just don't hijack someone else's thread about radial ramp technique.
1. If he did anything anywhere else and/or prior to five seconds before commitment it wasn't a hook-in check.Since this video starts with him on launch, we don't know if he did a hook-in check already...
Fuck you, Ryan....a hang check, a preflight, took a pee before putting his harness on, or drove a hybrid car to launch...
...is the PROBLEM - not the SOLUTION.Steve Kinsley - 2005/10/02 02:45:48 UTC
When Bob Gillisse got hurt I suggested that our local institution of the hang check is more the problem than the solution. I still believe that. It subverts the pilot's responsibility to perform a hook-in check. I often do not see pilots doing a hook-in check. Why should they? They just did a hang check and they are surrounded by friends who will make sure this box is checked.
DO A HOOK IN CHECK. You need a system that you do every time regardless of how many hang checks you have been subjected to that assures you are hooked in.
Total asshole.Why are you critiquing what you don't know, didn't see, didn't ask about, and isn't what he asked for critique on??? WTF?
Yeah, go ahead and ignore Michael. You've got Matt's signature on your card for your Priday Exemption.Keith Skiles - 2012/08/28 07:39:36 UTC
Admittedly I did do all those things, except the part about the hybrid car...
Idiot.Paul Hurless - 2012/08/28 07:47:04 UTC
It looks like you jumped aboard instead of having the glider lift you off the launch.
He's dead, Paul. It doesn't matter.Paul Edwards - 2012/08/28 14:26:46 UTC
Tennessee
Very nice Keith...
Or, occasionally, a fall from the glider. But those events are so rare they're hardly worth mentioning. The last one to happen within sight of that ramp was almost seven years ago.In most cases the run down the face of the ramp turns into a fall into the harness at some point.
Yeah. They CAN. And, of course, you never wanna test to make sure they WILL just before you start running on the ramp. You wanna find that out at about the eight second mark on the video.Ryan Voight - 2012/08/28 14:27:17 UTC
If you break it down into the simplest of terms... Your harness mains can become tight from the glider lifting up, or your body lowering away.
But have no fear, Keith. If you always hang check with assistance prior to stepping on the ramp and never leave their harnesses once you get in it there's really no need for a burdensome exercise like THIS:Either can happen quickly, but neither should ever happen all at once.
Yeah, sure. That's a reasonable expectation. Reminds me a lot of Dr. Trisa Tilletti's expectation that the weak links on hang gliders there at Cloud 9 will fail as early as possible in lockout situations but be strong and reliable enough to avoid frequent breaks from turbulence.I think it's a reasonable expectation that in three steps a pilot should be able to have the glider flying enough to lift it's own weight up and take the slack out of their mains?
Or, for Priday Exemption pilots, maybe not ever.Two steps, maybe not...
How much trouble is it for THE PILOT to lift its own weight off his shoulders just prior to launch?But launching without the glider even lifting it's own weight yet turns a ramp launch into a cliff launch if you think about it in terms of airspeed...
Christopher Reynolds - 2012/08/23
Vancouver Sun
Hang-gliding death in B.C. caused by 'pilot distraction': report
Forgotten 'hang-check' left woman unattached to glider
Lenami Godinez died in a hang-gliding accident in April near Agassiz.
The hang gliding accident that resulted in 27-year-old Lenami Godinez-Avila plunging to her death last spring was ultimately caused by a pair of distracted pilots, according to a report by the Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association of Canada.
"[T]he investigation assumes that pilot distraction resulted in a failure to perform recommended standardized safety procedures, resulting in the death of the passenger...," stated HPAC investigator Martin Henry.
Released Wednesday, the report determined Godinez-Avila's harness was not connected to the glider on takeoff, allowing her to fall 300 metres seconds after launching a tandem flight off Mount Woodside in the Fraser Valley on April 28, 2012. The required "hang-check" - a test to ensure that harnesses are hooked in - had not been carried out by either instructor.
Two HPAC-certified pilots, Jon Orders - who was flying with Godinez-Avila when she fell - and Shaun Wallace, were outfitting Godinez-Avila and her boyfriend before takeoff. "[T]he two instructors appeared to deal with the two tandems as a team," each one helping with preparation for the two launches, Henry stated.
An effective division of responsibility may have allowed them to overlook the standard pre-flight passenger checks.
"The investigation concludes that the dynamics of multiple passengers and instructors may be the key to understanding why the critical pre-launch procedures were not performed."
It implied that had only one pilot been assisting the two passengers, the checks might have been made and Godinez-Avila would still be alive.
Although Orders, 50, was solely responsible for his passenger as "pilot in command," Wallace, an Australian with "substantial tandem experience," activated Orders's video camera, remained directly behind the tandem glider during the launch and participated in the pre-flight process in other ways, according to the report.
Its findings were based on witness statements as well as evidence held by the RCMP, which may include the video card Orders allegedly swallowed after the incident. He was charged with obstruction of justice two days later after an X-ray appeared to reveal the memory card from the video camera he supposedly had running during the accident.
Mounties have now viewed the contents of a memory card, but Constable Tracy Wolbeck said Thursday she can't discuss the contents.
Wolbeck says the evidence could be used in the April 2013 trial of Orders.
Several days before, Godinez-Avila and her boyfriend had chosen to celebrate an anniversary at Mount Woodside, a popular launch site with hang gliding and paragliding buffs because it stares right into natural prevailing winds - necessary to give lift - and because it offers breathtaking views of Harrison Bay, the Fraser River and Chilliwack below.
Godinez-Avila fell into a clearcut area where a cherry blossom tree has since been planted in her memory.
The report ruled out equipment failure as a contributing factor.
Recommendations for future hang gliding practices may emerge later as a result of the incident, Henry said.
Fuck you, Vancouver Sun.Christopher Reynolds - 2012/08/23
Vancouver Sun
Nope. It was caused by...Hang-gliding death in B.C. caused by 'pilot distraction'
...a shit hang gliding culture with shit for brains and character using shit procedures which are worse than useless in protecting people from inevitable distractions and lapses of memory.George Whitehill - 1981/05
Just Doing a Hang Check is not Enough
A hang check shows the pilot that he/she is the correct height above the bar. It also assures the pilot that harness lines and straps are untangled.
The point I'm trying to make is that every pilot should make a second check to be very certain of this integral part of every flight. In many flying situations a hang check is performed and then is followed by a time interval prior to actual launch. In this time interval the pilot may unconsciously unhook to adjust or check something and then forget to hook in again. This has happened many times!
If, just before committing to a launch, a second check is done every time and this is made a habit, this tragic mistake could be eliminated. Habit is the key word here. This practice must be subconscious on the part of the pilot. As we know, there are many things on the pilot's mind before launch. Especially in a competition or if conditions are radical the flyer may be thinking about so many other things that something as simple as remembering to hook in is forgotten. Relying on memory won't work as well as a deeply ingrained subconscious habit.
In the new USHGA rating system, for each flight of each task "the pilot must demonstrate a method of establishing that he/she is hooked in, just prior to launch." The purpose here is obvious.
Bullshit.Forgotten 'hang-check' left woman unattached to glider
Yeah, what's that they say about group intelligence?The hang gliding accident that resulted in 27-year-old Lenami Godinez-Avila plunging to her death last spring was ultimately caused by a pair of distracted pilots, according to a report by the Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association of Canada.
RECOMMENDED STANDARDIZED safety procedures?"[T]he investigation assumes that pilot distraction resulted in a failure to perform recommended standardized safety procedures, resulting in the death of the passenger...," stated HPAC investigator Martin Henry.
Couldn't get everybody to AGREE ON anything before this was pushed to the forefront?Jason Warner - 2012/04/29
Accident Review and Safety Committee Chairman
We're in the midst of making a standardized safety practice that everybody will agree on, now that it's been pushed to the forefront.
WHAT *REQUIRED* "hang-check"? A couple of seconds ago it was just a recommendation.Released Wednesday, the report determined Godinez-Avila's harness was not connected to the glider on takeoff, allowing her to fall 300 metres seconds after launching a tandem flight off Mount Woodside in the Fraser Valley on April 28, 2012. The required "hang-check"...
It ensures that the harnesses are connected to SOMETHING - WHEN it's being performed....a test to ensure that harnesses are hooked in...
1. What were they instructing? Sounds like they were giving tourist rides....had not been carried out by either instructor.
Capital idea.Two HPAC-certified pilots, Jon Orders - who was flying with Godinez-Avila when she fell - and Shaun Wallace, were outfitting Godinez-Avila and her boyfriend before takeoff. "[T]he two instructors appeared to deal with the two tandems as a team," each one helping with preparation for the two launches, Henry stated.
REALLY?An effective division of responsibility may have allowed them to overlook the standard pre-flight passenger checks.
And yet immediately after the catastrophe your HPAC spokesman was strongly encouraging the strategy which you're now suggesting was actually the CAUSE of the catastrophe.The Vancouver Sun - 2012/05/03
Warner said HPAC is considering new safety measures following Saturday's tragedy. We're now strongly encouraging the buddy system where somebody looks at your equipment before you launch," he said.
Maybe you should shoot Jason and try to get some people who DON'T have their heads up their asses to run things. Just kidding.1979/06/22 - Sam White - 20 - Alpha 185 - Chandler Mountain - Steele, Alabama
A tragedy with a clear lesson. White did a harness check on himself, but then unhooked to check his cousin's gear. Forgot to hook in again. Fell 150 feet to a rocky ledge.
Yeah. Freak accidents like this virtually NEVER happen to solo pilots..."The investigation concludes that the dynamics of multiple passengers and instructors may be the key to understanding why the critical pre-launch procedures were not performed."
...when they're just focused on their own gear and procedures.Holly Korzilius - 2005/10/01 18:19:55
Incident at 2005 Team Challenge
I don't have many details at this point, but I just got a call from Scott. Bill Priday launched from Whitwell without hooking in. Scott indicated there was about a hundred foot drop-off from launch. Bill's status is unknown at this time. Please pray for him!
I will provide updates as I get them from Scott.
And they're always WAY better off when there isn't anybody else even around.Deanna Priday - 2005/10/13 20:31:31 UTC
Key Largo
Someone asked about the BUDDY SYSTEM IN DIVING. The buddy system is one that works. The system is designed to help each other do a gear check and make sure we are "ready to dive".
http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=811Terry Spencer - 2001/12/05
Steve, Bruce, and I met at the Seven Eleven in Front Royal and after a shuttle, proceeded to launch. It was very warm and after carrying up in T-shirts we set up and tanned while our clothing dried.
Steve launched first and after a few turns was over the ridge. It was beginning to look good!
I helped Bruce do a hang check, then I went below launch to get his picture. From that vantage point, while Bruce was preparing to launch, I did another check on him (hooked in? leg straps? etc.(as I did for Steve when I snapped his launch picture)). All was in order and Bruce executed a flawless launch.
With those two guys in the air, I suited up and got into position. It was a flush cycle so I watched Bruce land while waiting. Steve got a few pops but was unable to capitalize and soon was in the Landing Zone with Bruce.
Rather than waiting an hour or so for conditions to improve I decided to take the first safe puff that was come straight in. When the opportunity came, I started running. Dickey is a shallow launch and airspeed is critical. The glider picked up and started flying fine. Felt like the nose got popped up, so I pulled in and kept running. Airborne, I was pulling down on the downtubes and couldn't figure out why. I knew that the glider wouldn't want to fly with a technique like that. Next thing that I knew, I was upside down looking at a rock ledge six inches from my face.
Rick Masters - 2011/10/26 23:07:48 UTC
My good friends Bob Dunn and Dave Butz both launched unhooked. Bob held on to his base tube all the way down from Plowshare. The impact split his skull and he suffered terribly until he died during the night, alone.
Yeah, fer sure.It implied that had only one pilot been assisting the two passengers, the checks might have been made and Godinez-Avila would still be alive.
Sydney Morning Herald - 2003/09/24
Hang glider pilot on manslaughter charge after death of tourist
A hang glider pilot will be tried for manslaughter after a tourist plunged 200 metres to her death during a tandem flight over a New Zealand alpine town, a court has ruled.
Stephen Parson, 52, of Canada, faces up to ten years in prison if found guilty.
Eleni Zeri, 23, a civil engineering graduate from Athens, died on March 29 after slipping from his hang glider near Queenstown on South Island.
Really hard to go wrong when it's just one pilot making sure the hang check box gets checked.The Press - 2006/03/15
The Civil Aviation Authority is urgently pushing for new hang-gliding industry standards after learning a hang-gliding pilot who suffered serious injuries in a crash three weeks ago had not clipped himself on to the glider.
Extreme Air tandem gliding pilot James (Jim) Rooney safely clipped his passenger into the glider before departing from the Coronet Peak launch site, near Queenstown, CAA sports and recreation manager Rex Kenny said yesterday.
And the motherfuckers who wrote and didn't write the regulations and procedures that this guy was following and supposed to be following and certified him for tandem operations are totally off the hook - regardless of the fact that their all a bunch of totally incompetent, negligent, stupid douchebags.Although Orders, 50, was solely responsible for his passenger as "pilot in command,"...
This is a launch procedure issue. What does the fuckin' preflight have to do with anything?Wallace, an Australian with "substantial tandem experience," activated Orders's video camera, remained directly behind the tandem glider during the launch and participated in the pre-flight process in other ways, according to the report.
1. Yeah? I'm still waiting for a straight answer from these slimy sonsabitches on what the recommendations for past hang gliding practices were.Recommendations for future hang gliding practices may emerge later as a result of the incident, Henry said.
michael170 - 2012/08/29 01:21:24 UTC12-02.07/B./2./c.What USHPA reg are you referencing specifically?George Whitehill - 1981/05
Just Doing a Hang Check is not Enough
...
I'm sure you were Ryan. I know from long experience just how happy you are every time you get an opening to sabotage discussions on safe and sane procedures, regulations, and equipment. Somebody works for years developing and refining bulletproof aerotow equipment, you tell everybody to ignore it 'cause it'll probably fail and a standard aerotow weak link will keep you from getting into too much trouble - especially if you roll harder into the lockout and push out to get you off tow even sooner.Ryan Voight - 2012/08/29 01:54:34 UTC
I was hoping that's where you were going.
Yeah, you USHGA shits are past masters at wording everything that might possibly keep somebody from getting killed in such hopelessly vague terms that there's no way anybody can be held accountable for failing to implement it."a method" is vague;
1. Like WHAT - douchebag?he might have demonstrated a method and we couldn't see it...
...something in such a manner that nobody can SEE it.verb
clearly show the existence or truth of by giving proof or evidence
give a practical exhibition and explanation of
The REGULATION requires a hook-in check JUST PRIOR TO LAUNCH - not JUST PRIOR TO THE FUCKING VIDEO STARTING.or it occurred before this video started...
Got that right, MOTHERFUCKER.Which leads me to:
"just prior to launch" is open to interpretation.
And anyone with a functional brain who really wants to stay alive and/or keep his students from running off Whitwell with their carabiners dangling.To you...
The fucking regulation doesn't say "A FEW SECONDS BEFORE RUNNING". The fucking regulation says "JUST PRIOR TO LAUNCH". Kinda like you don't check for traffic A FEW SECONDS BEFORE PULLING OUT AT AN INTERSECTION. You check for traffic JUST PRIOR TO PULLING OUT AT AN INTERSECTION....it obviously means a few seconds before running.
The fucking regulation doesn't say "AS YOU STEP UP TO THE LAUNCH". The fucking regulation says "JUST PRIOR TO LAUNCH".To someone else it might mean as they step up to the launch.
What the fuck does that have to do with anything? If you're gonna launch multiple times then you're required to check multiple times. If you're just gonna launch once then you're just required to check once.At a site where you might pick up & put down the glider numerous times, are you required to do it numerous times?
The SOP specifies JUST PRIOR TO LAUNCH. And I SO wish you would join the long list of graphic examples who've demonstrated the consequences of dismissing the intent, logic, and critical importance of that regulation.The SOP doesn't specify...
Lemme quote him, dickhead:You cannot say with any validity that the pilot in this video violated that SOP.
Suppose I could do that, never hurts, but I always hang check with assistance prior to stepping on the ramp, and never leave my harness once I get in it.
1. It's a goddam HE - not goddam THEY. There's only one of him. Maybe if you had stayed awake for few hours worth of grade school English and arithmetic some of these discussions would be a bit smoother and more productive.But if you think they did...
It's not a fucking PERSONAL RECOMMENDATION of blah blah blah - asshole. It's goddam 31 year old USHGA REGULATION repeated four times in the rating requirements in an effort to get it to sink in for really dense functionally illiterate douchebags....why not just say hey I recommend blah blah blah.
1. He was taking a shot at getting him to THINK. You use this strategy in hang gliding, once every four or five hundred attempts you make a connection.What purpose did posting a non-radial ramp launch of a different pilot and writing a riddle?
Just what the conversation needed, Brad. Really appreciate your thoughtful contribution regarding this serious issue.Brad Barkley - 2012/08/29 02:55:39 UTC
Frostburg
Maybe michael170 is actually......
Oh, will you now? So where can I go or what Tennessee Tree Toppers official can I contact to get a copy of this "GENERAL POLICY"?Keith Skiles - 2012/08/29 04:41:39 UTC
In regards to that whole thing, I'll tell you the general policy at Henson's Gap.
FUCK the hang check. Unless there's something IN WRITING on a privately controlled launch I don't do hang checks and I don't allow stupid motherfuckers to go above and beyond the USHGA regulations under which I fly to tell me what my procedures will be.You do not step onto that ramp with a glider without having first had a hang check.
Fuck that.If you need to adjust, unhook, tinker, run a marathon, ect before launching, you get off the ramp.
Right. Local conditions at Henson are completely unique. Even when it's zero gusting to one and you have a full crew it's a dice roll whether you'll live to see tomorrow. BULLSHIT.Local conditions dictate that one does not want to be on the ramp any longer than necessary...
Nah. I LOVE being on the ramp without being in control of your glider....and you would certainly not want to be on the ramp without being in control of your glider.
Hang gliding just wouldn't be hang gliding unless we took stupid risks at every opportunity. That's why I never use wire crew when conditions are dicey.Everyone who lives dies, yet not everyone who dies, has lived. We take these risks not to escape life, but to prevent life escaping us.
A roaring thermal could easy whip through a soccer field and take you and the glider up to 125 feet, flip you over, and kill you. That's why you don't go on ramps or into soccer fields with gliders in totally insane conditions and use adequate crew to keep things safe and totally under control at all times in marginally insane conditions.A roaring thermal could easy whip through and take you, and the glider, right off the side of a 125 foot bluff.
Right. Once you step up on that ramp you are COMMITTED to launch. If the wind dies, crosses, tails, or surges you MUST launch. It's in the "General Policy" - and if you try to back off the designated TTT sniper will take you out.So once I, or anyone else, steps on to that ramp, we are committing to launch.
Beyond some restrictions for new pilots and reasonable suggestions for dealing with various winds - that's IT. Nothing about hang checks, requirements to clear launch to buckle a helmet, check a radio frequency, or set an altimeter and nothing about exempting anyone from the requirements and conditions of his rating because of the roaring thermals that are constantly whipping through and taking people doing hook-in checks right off the side of the 125 foot bluff.You must be a Tennessee Tree Topper Member in good standing and a current USHPA member before flying any TTT sites.
A minimum Hang 2 rating with mountain experience at a different site is required before flying at Henson Gap.
He can see it just fine. But his goal is to dowse it with a healthy coating of Agent Orange, set fire to it, pave it over, and then convince everybody that it never existed - it was always a parking lot.michael170 - 2012/08/29 05:17:28 UTCYou can't see the forest, too many trees in the way.AIRTHUG wrote:
"a method" is vague...
He didn't do a hang check either in the setup area...michael170 - 2012/08/29 06:42:43 UTC
Brad, ask your idiot instructor to tell you about what happened to Bill Priday.
Then see if you can connect the dots.
...or at the back of the ramp...Cragin Shelton - 2005/10/03 15:13:27 UTC
I just read the following item from the OzForum by a secondary on-site (not witness) report:This is eerie, because Hank Hengst and I were involved with an almost identical conversation with Bill at the Pulpit Fly-In. As we were walking Bill up to the old ramp, with me on right wing and Hank on nose, Hank asked bill if he wanted a hang check. Bill's reply was something like, "No thanks, I'm good." Hank then pointed out that he was not hooked in. I remarked that 'you are not hooked in until after the hang check.' We ran Bill through a routine lay-down hang check at the back of the ramp, and he had a fine launch.According to at least five local pilots, Bill had set up his glider and was moving it closer to launch. Again, according to at least five pilots, Bill was asked if he wanted a hang check, but was heard to say "It has been taken care of".
...the way he was trained and in accordance with the Tennessee Tree Toppers General Policy.Jim Rowan - 2005/10/06 01:26:50 UTC
I'm going to say this bluntly. The only one responsible for Bill Priday's death was Bill Priday. Not you or the other pilots who set up around him, watched him suit up and carry his glider to launch; not the pilots who asked him if he needed a hang check without noticing he wasn't hooked in; not the wire crew who allowed him to launch without checking to see if he was hooked in; not the competition meet director or safety director; not Steve Wendt who trained him; not the culture of the hang gliding community at-large, or anyone else. Bill Priday was the only one responsible for what happened to him and while I never actually met the man, from what I've read about him, I would tend to think he would agree.
Good.Brad Barkley - 2012/08/29 12:05:31 UTC
When you start throwing that kind of language around, I'm done listening to you.
1. It's not his job to communicate this effectively. That's the job of criminally negligent pieces of shit like Paul and Ryan Voight, Matt Taber, and Steve Wendt.Tom Galvin - 2012/08/29 15:05:07 UTC
Don't lose the lesson, because the delivery is from someone incapable of communicating effectively.
UNDEREMPHASIZED?!?!?! They're pretty much nonexistent. Watch this SHIT:Hook-in checks are underemphasized IMO.
Jim Rowan - 2012/08/29 15:10:34 UTC
Cresaptown, Maryland
Bill Priday was killed after he launched unhooked from Whitwell and after turning down at least one person (and maybe more) who asked him if he wanted a hang check. He did the same thing at the Pulpit just a couple weeks prior to the Whitwell incident and that error was pointed out by someone on the ramp before he launched.
He was on the right track but never got the whole picture.Rob Kells - 2005/12
My partners (Steve Pearson and Mike Meier) and I have over 25,000 hang glider flights between us and have managed (so far) to have hooked in every time. I also spoke with test pilots Ken Howells and Peter Swanson about their methods (another 5000 flights). Not one of us regularly uses either of the two most popular methods outlined above.
If I had been his instuctor I one hundred percent guarantee you that he'd have never died on a slope below an escarpment ramp.With each flight, demonstrates a method of establishing that the pilot is hooked in just prior to launch.
Every goddam fucking one of us who picks up a hang glider and starts walking towards launch is clearly an accident waiting to happen. Any asshole who thinks for a nanosecond that he isn't should find another hobby.He was clearly an accident waiting to happen.
Show me somewhere in this thread where there was the slightest suggestion that this idiot DIDN'T? I'd be as astounded to see a video of someone skipping a hang check at the back of the Henson or Lookout ramps as I would to see one of someone doing a hook-in check on one of them.There is nothing in this video that would suggest the pilot didn't do a hang check.
REALLY? Lawyers that incompetent with that much shit oozing out of their ears got something on that one? Think of the damage one could've done to Steve Wendt and everybody up the chain of command couching a legal team with a DOUBLE digit IQ!BTW, Bill's survivors sued the TTT and the USHPA and despite the fact that he had signed all the waivers, they were apparently able to collect something from the insurance company (the actual outcome was never made public).
If you're conscientious about hang checks you have no understanding of hook-in checks.Brad Barkley - 2012/08/29 15:47:37 UTC
Tom,
Don't worry... as a fairly new pilot I am probably more conscientious about hang checks and hook-in checks than someone who's gotten complacent in their habits.
Lessee...But as for michael170... throwing around vague riddles...
using the copied and pasted language which covers the hook-in check issue for all launches for all ratings.Do you notice anything significant happening just prior to launch?
If you found that to be a VAGUE RIDDLE your instructor IS an idiot and you need to have your rating suspended until you can easily figure out the difference between somebody doing a hook-in check at the top of a cliff and somebody not doing a hook-in check at the top of a cliff....and nasty insults...
For lotsa people - NOTHING IS....isn't ineffective communication;
Oh. So if YOU don't get it - it's not communication. Only possible explanation....in fact, it's not communication at all.
Sometimes that's not all that bad an idea. Rooney, for example, communicates VERY effectively to other total shitheads about the dangers of stronglinks and towing equipment with short track records.It's the opposite, the kind of crap that SHUTS DOWN effective communication...
Depends on what's being learned. And it's pretty fucking obvious that whatever conversations you've been involved in before on this topic......or a conversation where learning can take place.
...were doing WAY more harm than good.He does way more harm than good.
Those are the ones you really wanna pay the most attention to.Tom Galvin - 2012/08/29 16:43:06 UTC
Pagosa Springs, Colorado
I'm not defending his methods, just encouraging you to not dismiss messages of the most shrill.
Fuck that. You don't need to have watched people getting hauled out or personally known people who've bought farms. I've never flown a shuttle or had any astronaut buddies but that doesn't mean I can't understand what went wrong with the Challenger or Columbia and why, appreciate what happened to the crews, and know that I - or a goddam ten year old kid - could've done a better job of things. They blew up the Challenger and burned up the Columbia 'cause the were rolling dice and they knew bloody damn well they were rolling dice.In general newer pilots, have not yet seen the carnage of our sport.
Especially seeing as how the industry - from individual instructor through school through manufacturer through USHGA - is working its ass off to suppress crash, injury, and fatality data and tell the public how astoundingly safe it is all the time.They do not have the context to appreciate the gravity of the simple things that lead to a ride in a helicopter to the trauma center, or a name etched in stone.
...who got what was coming to them and did the gene pool a big favor.Zack C - 2010/11/18 05:59:03 UTC
Sure. But I'm one of Matt's 'defective products'. The first thing I learned to do in the field at Lookout was a hang check. I was told a story by my instructor about the then-recent death of a pilot who launched without being through his leg loops. The instructor called this pilot an 'idiot'. This is how I was taught to think from Day 1.
And just about always...Generally I've found in safety related matters, that the reason for the rudeness is a PTSD like reaction to complacency within the community.
...having taken way too much crap from way too many assholes for way too long.Warren Narron - 2012/03/16 16:28:48 UTC
Tad wasn't always so hostile and aggressive. Early on in his quest to change dangerous/dogmatic procedures and improve the chance of safety to his fellow pilots, I was awed at how much crap he actually took... course he finally snapped and let the pent up anger fly and I can't really blame him. Willful ignorance pisses me off too.
Yeah, we CAN. We can ALWAYS recognize that we're all just as human as Bill Priday and Kunio Yoshimura and assume we're about to make the same mistake every time we launch. We're about to run off cliffs, ferchrisake. Just how hard should it be to generate some fear of falling every time we do it?We are human, and cannot do "always".
If you use the fucking Aussie Method, a fucking self hang check, and a fucking second party hang check...I use the Aussie method, a self hang check, then a second party hang check, a hook-in check...
Steve Davy - 2011/10/24 10:27:04 UTC
OK- how many times does he need confirm that he is hooked in? And when would be the best time to make that confirmation?
Brian McMahon - 2011/10/24 21:04:17 UTC
Once, just prior to launch.
...you do not understand the hook-in check and you are increasing - not decreasing - your probability of launching unhooked.Christian Williams - 2011/10/25 03:59:58 UTC
I agree with that statement.
What's more, I believe that all hooked-in checks prior to the last one before takeoff are a waste of time, not to say dangerous, because they build a sense of security which should not be built more than one instant before commitment to flight.
Fuck Dave Hopkin's Rule of Three. If I followed it I'd hafta put the glider back on the car two out of three times before I got the bag unzipped. But I'm several million times less likely to launch unhooked or get killed on tow than some highly disciplined asshole like Rooney....and Dave Hopkin's rule of three. Three mistakes between when the glider comes off the rack to launch, then it's time to put the glider away...
The issue of FOCUS is completely irrelevant. EVERYBODY who's ever run off a ramp, with or without his glider, has been FOCUSED - on something....since I am not focused on what I am doing.
It's BECAUSE of "ALL THAT" that you one day you could still launch unhooked. You're doing all this useless shit to "build in a sense of security"...Even with all that, I know that one day, I could still launch unhooked.
...and drop your fear level down to zilch by the time you get to the only stage of the day at which your hook-in status matters.Rob Kells - 2005/12
Each of us agrees that it is not a particular method, but rather the fear of launching unhooked that makes us diligent to be sure we are hooked in every time before starting the launch run.
Don't try to be better than that with all that "Rule of Three, multiple check...I am human.
...focus bullshit you're doing. Make being and recognizing that you're human work for you.Steve Kinsley - 2005/10/04 14:04:25 UTC
We have now rounded up all the usual suspects and promised renewed vigilance, nine page checklists, hang checks every six feet, et cetera. Bob Gillisse redux.
Bullshit. By doing and assuming that you've done NOTHING to MITIGATE them EVERY time you launch you CAN *ELIMINATE* them. Nobody who's been afraid of launching unhooked five seconds prior to launch HAS.I can only mitigate the risks, not eliminate them.
One of the better ones - but the four second delay which was making me nervous.peeetaaar - 2012/08/30 00:58:55 UTC
San Francisco
hook-in checks
Glad my video was a good example and not a bad one!
JUST prior to launch. If it's not JUST prior to launch it's not a hook-in check. As the delay increases it starts becoming more the problem than the solution.If I can contribute my two cents about hook-in checks prior to launch...
By whom? Pat Denevan? That WOULD help explain the four second delay....it's definitely something that was drilled into me during my training.
No you haven't. There's no such thing as an unhooked launch ACCIDENT.In the year or so that I've been flying, I've heard of at least two or three accidents...
Yeah, get that "JUST" word back in there....that could have been prevented by hook-in checks just prior to launch.
For what?The full hang check is necessary and great...
1. Show me where at any time within the half dozen years USHGA has allowed mention of a hook-in check....but in my opinion (and USHPA's), what's an extra two seconds of your standard launch routine as a double or triple check that has the potential to prevent an accident and possible save your life?
Damn I wish somebody were teaching this thing right.Totally worth the two seconds, I think.
