suspension

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=32137
Yikes

Brad Barkley - 2014/12/04 03:38:50 UTC

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Txguk01M6GU

It's clipped from:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDOeGbaecgw


which was up sixteen months ago tomorrow.

Diev Hart - 2014/12/04 05:07:51 UTC

Lowest spin I have seen....slight turn...high side and push out....hope they were ok.

They who? Nicos Halvatzis and any ants in the vicinity?

Carole Sherrington - 2014/12/04 13:01:44 UTC

Turning too close to the lift band. IMHO. A bit of turbulence caused a left turn that stuck the right wing into lift. Too low and slow to do anything about it.

Bo Peep is a site close to Bo Peep farm near Brighton UK and doesn't take prisoners. Pilot was OK, glider well bent.

He was upright and too slow and crashed.

Karl Allmendinger - 2014/12/04 17:28:14 UTC

I have always assumed that the spreader on the hang loop is to prevent the hang loop from touching the keel and reducing the pilot's...

...roll...

...control authority.

You ASSUMED that? Are there other possible explanations of which I'm not yet aware?

In this video the spreader is much closer to the carabiner than the keel...

17-11422
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8546/29432805605_c0c2c710bb_o.png

...allowing the hang loop to touch the keel.

In tons of videos total morons have their spreaders way the fuck down.

This raises some questions:

Could this interfere with the pilot's control authority?

I dunno. Could coming in upright...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27086
Steve Pearson on landings

Steve Pearson - 2012/03/28 23:26:05 UTC

I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.

...with one's hands at shoulder or ear height where he can't control the glider interfere with the "pilot's" control authority? That never seems to bother anybody. Why should this issue be any different? Either way you're decertifying the glider. Might as well go for both at the most critical period of the flight.

Is the spreader fixed to the hang loop so it cannot be moved?

On Aeros gliders? Yes.

This glider seems to be a Discus and drawings in the manual:
http://www.aeros.com.ua/manuals/DiscusV04.12.07.pdf
pages 44 & 45 show the spreader in a low position.

Yeah, they're total fucking idiots. They have no idea what the spreader's for and how it's supposed to work. They just know they're supposed to have one. Right...

19 - 13501
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3895/14743990195_8b8c2933c2_o.png


...Chris?

Red Howard - 2014/12/04 20:48:54 UTC

Campers,

Something else may have been happening also, possibly more serious; the low wing was probably dropping into an abrupt wind gradient, causing the low wing to stall and drop further. The high wing, still in smooth air if not actual lift, would not drop. Results as seen; happy to hear the pilot was okay, at least.

Landing closer to the crest of the hill would have been a safer approach, but the pilot would be dealing with stronger ground winds, there. Ideally, you want to make your landing where the pilot is down in the wind gradient, and the wing drops out of the lift, just as the pilot's feet are almost touching.

Yeah, make sure it's on the feet. That's absolutely critical.

That wide-open top-landing area is not as benign as it looks. There is really just a narrow strip of ground (across the top) that is a safe area to land in.

Some careful measurements of the wind speed at various altitudes (2m, 4m, 6m, 8m, and 10 m) and repeated at measured distances back from the crest would produce a "picture" of the wind gradient that many HG pilots there would benefit to see. In all cases, a pilot should have some excess of airspeed, and preferably wings level, when descending into the wind gradient.

He was upright and too slow and never pulled in the least bit even after the tip stall onset. The whole fucking effort was focused on stopping on his feet - as usual. Big fucking surprise.

Nic Welbourn - 2014/12/04 22:27:12 UTC
Canberra

It's a good reminder for all of us

Thank you so much for speaking on my behalf, Nico. I do so tire of expressing thoughts for myself.

Brian Scharp - 2014/12/05 00:12:22 UTC

Yes, with roll control. I doubt it would interfere much...

Any.

...with the pitch control and be an excuse for prematurely stalling.

Nah, if you want a really good excuse for stalling...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27217
Bad Launch!

Ryan Voight - 2012/09/25 05:59:51 UTC

You see... the human shoulder limits how far you can pull in. Prone or upright, you can really only get your hands back about even with your shoulders.

...put your hands on the downtubes. Most anybody will let you off the hook.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1659
Hang Loop Question

AirNut - 2014/12/15 20:42:14 UTC

Hi All,

All? Not everybody with the ability to answer your question...

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=929
Training Manual Comments / Contribution

Warren Narron - 2012/01/06 18:55:32 UTC

Going against the grain here, but someone has to point out that the probable best candidate to write a training manual has been banned from this site.

...is permitted to post on The Bob Show.

I've just taken delivery of a crispy brand new Falcon 4 170

But the snag is that I'm in Australia and have an Australian harness, so I've got the usual issue with the length of the hang loop (about eight inches too short).

Donchya just love the great job the hang gliding industry has done in getting things standardized?

I've got a replacement arriving from Wills Wing in a few days, so no drama there.

Hope you ordered a compatible backup as well. Things tend to get really ugly really fast when those mains fail.

But I do have a few questions about this.

This is the first WW glider I've owned (all my others have been Aussie brands).

The kind you can't fly unless you've gotten into the harness while it's been connected to your glider?

On all my other gliders, there's been some sort of retaining mechanism that fixed the hang loop in place, but on the Falcon, the hang loop is only secured by friction, i.e. being cinched tight enough to avoid shifting in flight (as described in the manual). This strikes me as being just a little dippy.

Arguably.

Am I being a bit paranoid about this?

A bit.

How do you know if the hang loop is tight enough short of flying and finding out the hard way?

By realizing that with all the zillions of fuckin' Falcons that have been cruising the skies since the beginning of time if this were an actual issue we'd have most assuredly heard about it long ago.

Also... You could do simulations with fixed metal pipes or poles on the ground and try to get a slip.

The manual says "very tight", but how tight is very tight?

As tight as you can get it. That'll undoubtedly be tighter than some other Falcon survivor was able to get it.

Has anyone out there installed/replaced a hang loop on a Falcon or other WW glider?

Not that style. But that's how pretty much all early glider suspensions were configured and I can't recall a report of a single problem - even without the velcro cinching stuff.

Thanks!

Don't mention it. Hardly anyone outside of Kite Strings ever does anyway.

Rick Masters - 2014/12/15 21:20:14 UTC

Am I being a bit paranoid about this?

I don't think so. The worst place to ever find your cg/hang point has changed is in violent air.

And you would know that how? Cite an incident.

Ya know what's really the worst thing to find out about your hang point in the air - any kind - is?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25550
Failure to hook in.

Bille Floyd - 2011/10/27 16:59:26 UTC

The Wind came back up and i picked up the glider & made a mental pre-launch check. Remembering that i had already hooked in previously --
i deleted the, "lift the glider" part to check for tension on the harness.
and signaled for the driver to GO !!

That you don't have one. And that doesn't seem to be enough of a concern for you to even...

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=802
AL's Second flight at Packsaddle how it went

Rick Masters - 2011/10/19 22:47:17 UTC

At that moment, I would banish all concern about launching unhooked. I had taken care of it. It was done. It was out of my mind.

...make the slightest pretense of adhering to the USHGA regulation covering that issue.

I used to tape down my hang straps with strong reinforced fiberglass tape with several wraps around the keel.

Good job, Rick. I'll bet that works WAY better than what Wills Wing has been doing with all of its keel mounted suspension gliders.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=32186
Whoops! He just misses the beach. Water landing video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kiXdIpwuipo

Andy Long - 2014/12/18 01:51:28 UTC

The link that Fred provided has a post by Jeff Greenbaum that pretty much sums up what I read many years ago (maybe it was the same info from Jeff) as to why you may screw yourself if you try to unhook... or attempt to cut your hang strap.

When I read about these practice sessions in a pool years ago I set up my glider, hooked in then detached the nose wires and slowly lay the glider down on top of me on my lawn. I then tried to reach behind me to unhook. With my eyes closed to simulate not being able to see underwater. Forget it. There was no way... unless you could hold your breath for like five minutes.

Same with trying to cut your hang loop. Very difficult to get to. And those hook knives will not work sometimes. Check it out. I've had a brand new hook knife, with brand new blades, cut about half way through a not even very robust hang loop then stop and go no further. Even when I yanked and tugged to get it to keep cutting.

That's because those hook knives can, and do, cut a small piece of the webbing away from the main loop that then gets jammed in the corner where the two blades meet and that's it. It will not cut anymore. But a hook knife for my Atos hang strap is a non starter anyway. That's because my hang loop is a main and a backup all sewn into one massive, thick loop. You need a chainsaw to cut through it.

Anyway, years ago I decided that my plan of action was to get out of the harness in the case of a water landing. And I practiced my procedure a lot. And when I got a new harness, I had to develop a new procedure and then practice.

Try it some time. Hold your breath and see if you can unbuckle what you need to, pull the velcro on your shoulder straps, etc., and wriggle out of your harness with just one breath. It's hard.

And don't forget your helmet. 'Cause if you fly with a radio and have wires that come from your harness to your helmet, then you still may not be able to escape your harness because your helmet is attached to it with wire. So part of my escape plan is unbuckling my helmet and yanking it off my head.

Cripes... just the thought of having to try to deal with a water landing gives me the creeps. That's some scary sh&t man.

But a hook knife for my Atos hang strap is a non starter anyway. That's because my hang loop is a main and a backup all sewn into one massive, thick loop. You need a chainsaw to cut through it.

Yeah, but just think how much less likely you are to plummet to your death from your glider when you're airborne - assuming, of course, you're actually hooked in at launch, which I'm absolutely certain you always do.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1079
$15 pacifiers

Jim Rooney - 2005/09/20 13:11:43 UTC

Your VG is backed up for the same reason that your main hang strap is backed up... it is a fabric to metal connection. There is a metal cable that is there to stop your crossbars from folding should your vg snap.

The mains on my harness are backed up also. Same reason, metal to fabric connection. I'm not sure all harnesses are this way.

Sorry, I don't see the logic in trying to save a couple bucks on equipment that I am litterally entrusting my life to. "Pacifier"? may be... but there's an old saying out there... "You never need the backup, until you need the backup".

I know of at least one pilot out there that flies with two caribiners. His logic makes more sense to me... you can't have too many backups.

$.02

Total fucking asshole.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=32479
Redundant hang strap

Robert Kesselring - 2015/02/15 18:54:20 UTC
West Virginia

Why do we use a back-up hang strap, but no other part of a glider has a back-up?

I dunno, let's see what the world's largest glider manufacturer has to say on the issue...

Mike Meier - 2005/08/~18

If the main is properly maintained, and periodically replaced, it is never going to fail anyway, so the backup is sort of pointless. Years ago we didn't even put backup hang loops on our gliders (there's no other component on your glider that is backed up, and there are plenty of other components that are more likely to fail, and where the failure would be just as serious), but for some reason the whole backup hang loop thing is a big psychological need for most pilots.

Interesting. Pretty much the same thing you're saying. They just put it on in deference to the total fucking morons...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2809
hook-in failures

Jim Rooney - 2007/10/31 13:31:04 UTC

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
YOU ARE ON CRACK!

I've yet to meet the pilot dumb enough or arrogant enough to fly without a backup loop. Perhaps you'll be the first then?

Thanks, I needed a laugh

...who fly these things.

Take lower cables for example. If a side cable breaks you're going down just as surely as if your hang strap breaks. Why not use back-up cables cut an inch longer then the primary cables to take the load if a primary cable breaks? It seems like the same reasoning.

It is. It's just that there's a limit to the extra drag these assholes will tolerate.

Is a hang strap more likely to fail without warning then a cable?

It's IMPOSSIBLE to have a hang strap fail without warning - assuming you give it a reasonable glance during preflight once every couple years or so.

Craig Hassan - 2015/02/15 19:04:18 UTC

And a double layer sail double the stitching. Fully cabled and double wall frames. Dual shell helmet. Knee pads and don't forget your athletic cup.

I always thought the double strap is a bit over kill. Maybe an antiquated safety requirement from days when wanna be pilots were tying their own hang ropes from whatever thread they had laying around.

It was NEVER a REQUIREMENT. But yes, a legacy from prehistoric stupidity and shoddiness.

Tiberiu Szollosi - 2015/02/15 19:12:24 UTC

A backup haul back assist would be cool but i never heard of one failing so if it aint broke...

Fix it. The way Bob does. Takes nonexistent problems and makes life as miserable as possible for as many people as possible with mega obnoxious solutions.

So can you think of anything that fails and crashes gliders left and right...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg


...that we might look into modifying a bit? Do something that many of us would be happy with?

Dave Hopkins - 2015/02/15 19:31:09 UTC

You go first...

Idiot.

Steve Forslund - 2015/02/15 21:14:52 UTC

What is the advantage in not having it?

One looks a lot less stupid. I suggest you seriously consider this option.

Also makes using an idiot locking carabiner...

http://ozreport.com/forum/files/binerturn1_154.jpg


...a little less dangerous.

John Fritsche - 2015/02/15 21:29:23 UTC

Back-up wires? Seriously?
I've never heard of a hang loop failure (been flying since '8.

1980?

John Fritsche - Lompoc, California - 51452 - H4 - 1994/07/01 - Brad Kushner - AT FL PL AWCL CL FSL RLF TUR XC

Isn't your number a bit high for '80?

I heard of an aluminum carabiner failing during a hang check once, and at least once on a paraglider (I think steel is now standard on PGs, too), but never a hang loop.

Robert Kesselring - 2015/02/15 22:15:36 UTC

John Fritsche - 2015/02/15 21:29:23 UTC

Back-up wires? Seriously?

Wire failure due to invisible faults apparently can happen...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=32054
Discus C design fault could kill you

That was due to a defective design. That's not a reason to use backup wires.

I've never heard of a hang loop failure...

I would suspect that is because a hang loop would be quite visibly frayed, and so get replaced, long before it is anywhere close to structural failure.

Yes.

Red Howard - 2015/02/15 23:26:46 UTC

Some hang straps were made with tubular webbing (before we knew better)...

We?

...and they could fail after even very minor damage.

- Bullshit.
- A cross spar can fail after even very minor damage in the right place. Is that a reason to back them up?

So yeah, some hang straps could fail, maybe sooner than a cable.

Bullshit.

Don't use tubular webbing for hang straps, or as a parachute bridle.

Don't use it as a parachute bridle 'cause it can get cut by a flying wire. Use it for hang straps all you want. Actually, use Dacron. Low stretch and UV resistance.

Preflight everything.

Then skip the hook-in check and run off the ramp.

You can have a haulback cable on the crossbars, and a VG system that backs it up, in case that cable fails.

Yeah. In case the cable fails.

My harness has main support webs, and a similar (new, never used) webbing system for my parachute carabiner.
Your hardware can have locking nuts on the bolts (except for the control bar bottom corners), and safety rings through the bolts.
You may have to add these "redundancies" to some gliders, but it's no big deal to do it.

And you should probably do it because the glider manufacturers really don't know what they're doing and every year there are four or five kites falling out of the sky 'cause bolts came loose in flight.

Backup hang straps became an industry standard for HGs after some HG factory-made cable hang systems failed in flight.

See Mike's note above.

Turns out that hang straps can take a bigger shock load than a steel cable.

Don't even talk about dinosaur age junk like that. There's nothing along those lines this sport needed to learn from putting stuff into the air.

Fortunately, that was back in the "bad old days" when conventional HG wisdom was "never fly higher than you are willing to fall" and the national HG magazine was called "Ground Skimmer."

Hang gliding wisdom... Just look at how far we've come.

Before "HG reserve parachutes" (actually the deployment bag system) got invented, I did have double side wires on my Seagull glider.

Did you ever think about subjecting sidewires to a lot of tension on the ground...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=20991
coated vs uncoated wires

Red Howard - 2011/02/22 06:50:21 UTC

I do not recommend "stepping" on a cable (I assume you mean in mid-span) as part of a preflight. If your foot hits the ground with the cable underneath, or sand or rocks are trapped in your shoe treads, you could damage the cable that you are testing.

...like it says in all the Wills Wing manuals?

They used a three-hole tailwire tang on each crossbar end, and the two cables were taped together to form a double cable. If I did not have heavy-duty (1/8") stainless steel aircraft cables as sidewires today, and a nice parachute, I might want double side wires still.

Yeah, beef up the structure and increase the drag so you don't need to preflight your aircraft the way an actual PILOT would do.

You need to have absolutely no doubts about your gear, if you plan to enjoy flying.

'Cept for towing equipment - 'specially aero. Then use whatever cheap crap some asshole sells you and tells you that it has a really long track record.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=32479
Redundant hang strap

John Stokes - 2015/02/16 00:12:13 UTC
Trenton, Georgia

Hey John,

I was at Wallaby with Dennis Pagen present when the fellow did the infamous hang check. He hooked into a strap hanging, I think, from an low tree limb, when his aluminum carabiner failed. That's one of the reasons why everyone went to steel carabiners.

I thought that happened about a decade before the existence of Wallaby.

Jim Steel - 2015/02/16 04:32:01 UTC

Haul-back

Early Icaro Laminars have a haul-back safety/stop.

How 'bout the later ones? They eliminated it 'cause they determined it was stupid?

I suppose as long as the strap is fairly aerodynamic the low-profile integrated backup is good idea on a topless.

Yep. Build one insanely overstrength integrated hang strap so you can say you have a backup. Being able to say you have a backup is the biggie here. And don't worry about any drag penalty.

hang-glide - 2015/02/16 06:06:49 UTC
Chattanooga

I will list three main suspension failures. I know of at least one other suspension failure.

1) A pilot flying Raccoon Mountain near Chattanooga many years ago, had a hang loop structural failure. His injuries were substantial. I imagine a backup would have prevented this.

I'd like to know what you imagine was the reason for the main failure.

2) From the story I heard, Stu Smith (former US Nat'l Champion) was hanging from quick links. The quick links broke and Stu was strong and quick enough to pull himself back up into the control bar and fly down unhooked.

Do we get to count that as a suspension failure in a discussion about backup loops?

3) A friend of mine had purchased a used glider without a backup. He added a backup. After that, while flying the glider, the main suspension that came with the glider failed. The backup that he added saved him from becoming detached from the glider.

And it was a certified glider and there was nothing wrong with the suspension. It just failed.

Red Howard - 2015/02/16 14:22:04 UTC

I don't usually do this, but I'll make it four, then. Brad H. was flying 1000' (300m) AGL at POTM, ~2008. He was doing mellow swoops and dives, nothing radical. Single hang loop failed, no backup. His parachute was in the harness, not pulled. We think the basetube may have clocked him in the jaw as he fell free, hard enough to stun or daze him (otherwise he had time enough to deploy the parachute).

And we've heard NOTHING about WHY any of these strap failures occurred. We're just supposed to think that once in a while a properly designed and reasonably well maintained and inspected main suspension blows so this is why we really need backup loops.

And I can probably dig up a dozen glider failures for every suspension failures but nobody's advocating backup gliders for when we're flying below parachute altitude. When a glider fails there's an actual REASON. Mostly aerobatics, sometimes damaged, defective, incompletely or mis assembled components.

So now somebody tell me about a failure of a properly designed and reasonably well maintained and inspected main suspension failing. This is bullshit. I one hundred percent guarantee you I can walk up to any suspension configuration, spend no more than ten seconds checking it out, and tell you whether or not it's got a snowball's chance in hell of failing.

And if you guys aren't competent enough to do that just as quickly and just as well then there's nothing else in this sport that you're competent enough to be doing.

P.S. I can do that check a lot quicker, better, more safely if there's no stupid useless piece o' shit backup in the way and cluttering my view of stuff that actually matters.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=32479
Redundant hang strap

NMERider - 2015/02/16 22:51:42 UTC

~1980 a Moyes Mega pilot had looped his hang strap over the top rear of the welded stainless crossbar bracket...

Which gliders stopped having shortly thereafter.

...which proceeded to cut through hang strap dropping the pilot to his death.

Typically the primary and backup hang strap will utilize different methods of attachment so that there is more than just a backup.

Are we seeing a need/payoff for this?

This is not true of many single surface gliders where the hang loop forms a lark's head hitch around the keel. If the keel breaks (and they do break)...

Yeah.

http://vimeo.com/22146182


33-02705c


Under insane G forces after gliders have been broken up doing aero.

...both hangs loops will slide off the broken section of keel.

That's OK. Nobody does aero on single surface gliders where the hang loop forms a Lark's Head hitch around the keel.

IMHO it would be wise to run Kevlar webbing the length of the keel to help prevent pilot separation from broken up glider.

Don't a lot of fighter jets have really expensive systems to separate the hell out of pilots and their broken up planes?

As Comet stated, you will come down slower attached to your wreckage than in free fall.

Unless you factor in the parachute which may not clear or may get eaten up by your wreckage.

Hang straps or hang loops undergo a great deal of flex...

They're made out of webbing. That's what they're designed to do.

...and abrasion...

No they don't.

...and it would not surprise me to learn that if tested after 500 hours of active use that the breaking strength was less than half of an equivalent new strap (loop).

And then they'd only be able to tear the glider apart by a factor of four or so.

If anyone has this data or runs across any please hit me up or post it here.

http://www.hanggliding.org/wiki/HG_ORG_Mission_Statement
HangGliding.Org Rules and Policies

No posts or links about Bob K, Scott C Wise, Tad Eareckson and related people, or their material. ALL SUCH POSTS WILL BE IMMEDIATELY DELETED. These people are poison to this sport and are permanently banned from this site in every possible way imaginable.

Guess I'd hafta hit you up.

I'd like to see the results.

The results that matter are that this is a totally nonexistent problem. It doesn't manifest itself in real life. Our REAL problem with hang loops isn't that we don't have as many as we need and/or that they don't stay strong enough to do the job. It's that everybody and his fuckin' dog has two insanely overstrength loops but...

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7570/15661252749_7fcfe6445a_o.jpg


...nobody's checking to make sure he's got even one of them at the only time it matters.

http://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5566/14704620965_ce30a874b7_o.png


How 'bout we work on that insanely easy fix before getting all wrapped up in the totally fake shit?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=32479
Redundant hang strap

Alan Deikman - 2015/02/17 00:49:04 UTC

I thought the redundancy of the hang strap was because it was the only component on the hang glider that endured friction as part of its normal function. Is this not right?

No, it's not. Show me a photo of a primary hang strap that's been degraded by abrasion. And no, abrasion inflicted by those totally moronic sandpaper no-skid tapes doesn't count.

And if that IS the reason behind the redundancy then where are the reports of it successfully functioning?

Enos - 2015/02/17 01:42:15 UTC
Sydney

Surely this is a classic case of better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it?

- Cite some examples of people needing it.

- Why back up the most disproportionally overstrength component of the whole fuckin' glider? This is the most classic case of fixing something that ain't broke in the history of aviation.

- Everybody's always screaming KISS when someone - damn near always Yours Truly - attempts to introduce a tow release that can actually be used and will actually function in an emergency. And one of the most critical operations of the foot launch day is hooking into the glider. So what's Simpler? Hooking into the glider or hooking into the main and backup?

- Do you fear not being competent enough to be able to preflight your way into the air with one hundred percent certainty that your primary system will keep you connected for the duration of the flight? I don't and I'm one of the most scatterbrained klutzes you ever wanna meet.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=32479
Redundant hang strap

Robert Kesselring - 2015/02/17 11:50:26 UTC

A couple of you posted scenarios in which a back-up hang strap would keep you connected to a disabled glider, which would slow your rate of descent. Has it actually been established somehow that the benefit of staying connected to the glider would actually outweigh the posible hazard of the glider wreckage interfearing with chute deployment?

It's a crap shoot. It could save you. It could kill you. Stay the fuck out of situations in which you're gonna find out and don't amend your system with stupid shit that could KILL you because it MAY save you.

Zack Marzec removed a critical safety element, an upper attachment point, from his tow system and then, instead of investing in something that would qualify as a release, installed a piece of cheap Industry Standard shit and tried to compensate with a Rooney Link Instant Hands Free Release. Once every three years or so a Rooney Link Instant Hands Free Release WILL save some idiot dope on a rope so we can ignore the fact that it's a hundred times more likely to fuck you over. And that idiot dope on a rope got fucked over SPECTACULARLY. (Thank you, God.)

May be a dumb question...

No.

...but I'm a newb. If I don't ask I'll just stay dumb.

If you start getting educated by your Jack Show asshole buddies over there you're gonna go from having a reasonable amount of common sense to totally moronic.

Robert Kesselring - 2015/02/17 12:01:39 UTC

NMERider - 2015/02/16 22:51:42 UTC

If the keel breaks (and they do break) both hangs loops will slide off the broken section of keel. IMHO it would be wise to run Kevlar webbing the length of the keel to help prevent pilot separation from broken up glider...

This idea reminded me of something I read from one of red's links...

http://user.xmission.com/~red/BaseTubeCable.htm
Base Tube Safety Cable

Yeah, that sure addresses one of the big problems we have in this sport. red will no way in hell adhere to the most useful and critical preflight check specified in all the Wills Wing owner's manuals because he's determined that the sidewires will be destroyed in the process. But he'll happily fix the disintegrating basetube problem for us - at the expense of throwing back into the equation some of the weight the manufacturers had worked their asses off to eliminate.

Could / should this modification be applied to the keel also? Or is there a reason to use steel in one application and kevlar in the other?

I dunno. You should probably consult with the people who break their keels more frequently than the usual two or three per season.

Tiberiu Szollosi - 2015/02/17 12:03:18 UTC

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbaNQO4AXng

What's your point? It's better to stay attached to a glider that you just turned to scrap by doing stupid shit - that's way the fuck out of the ballpark of what it's designed and certified to do - 'cause after it eats both of your parachutes you may get lucky? Or that if he'd been blown clear either one of his parachutes would've had great chances of actually working and taking a lot of the suspense out of the drama?

Is that the kind of flying you wanna be doing next season, Robert? Pushing aero to and beyond the ragged edge of control? If not then start looking at the ACTUAL problems we're having - pretty much all snapping arms and ripping shoulders apart with slightly blown stunt landings - and adopting the easy fixes available for those and stop looking at the stupid freak stuff that only happens with one extreme dice roller once every thirty years or so.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=32743
Ever hear of basebar backup cable saving the day???

W9GFO - 2015/04/11 04:30:25 UTC

Just wondering if there are any stories of a basebar backup cable ever actually coming into play. Kind of like - has a biner ever failed in flight?

I've not heard of either causing an accident but I know many people back them both up.

Ever hear of basebar backup cable saving the day???

Rooney link; Birrenator; easily reachable release; hook knife; tug driver fixing whatever's going on back there by giving someone the rope; the excellent book, Towing Aloft, by Dennis Pagen and Bill Bryden; always thanking your tug driver for making a good decision in the interest of your safety; tandem weak link break recovery training in smooth air at two thousand feet; the Cone of Safety; tow mast breakaway protector; hang check; proper bar clearance; Joe Greblo's Four or Five Cs; Ausssie Method; DeWeese "Hook In!" plaque; Porter checklist; backup loop; locked carabiner; Screamer; long final; coming in upright; spot no stepper skills; helmet strap; Safety Committee; CPR training; good cup of coffee and a solid breakfast; little red rubber FOCUSED PILOT wristband; prayer...

Kind of like - has a biner ever failed in flight?

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1079
$15 pacifiers

Jim Rooney - 2005/09/20 13:11:43 UTC

Sorry, I don't see the logic in trying to save a couple bucks on equipment that I am litterally entrusting my life to. "Pacifier"? may be... but there's an old saying out there... "You never need the backup, until you need the backup".

I know of at least one pilot out there that flies with two caribiners. His logic makes more sense to me... you can't have too many backups.

I've not heard of either causing an accident but I know many people back them both up.

IQs are inversely proportional to number of backups flown with.

[Steve Davy]

Here's a false sense of security, Tom:



Worthless crap. Just like you are, Tom.

PS And you can tell your Rocky Mountain pigfucker buddies to go to hell.