Releases

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30123
Step towing in Holland

Jim Rooney - 2012/11/30 07:13:17 UTC

I'm with Mark on this...

Oh good. A few words of wisdom from Keen Intellect Jim in support of someone else who's never done a goddam thing in the way of improving equipment or procedures beyond what was handed to him.

why the funky "reach down and hookup the lower bridal" step?

Yeah?

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3107
I have a tandem rating!!!

Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC

When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less)...

Why the funky Quallaby release brake lever where you can't operate it in an emergency without losing what little control of the glider you have left?

...but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it.

Why the funky velcro to "SECURE" the brake lever in place so even if/when you finally do get to it with the glider standing on its ear you still can't release?

The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.

Why the funky bent pin so that the "BACKUP" release won't even function seeing a quarter of the lockout load - with the chintzy tandem weak link still doing just fine?

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3391
More on Zapata and weak link

Paul Tjaden - 2008/07/22 04:32:22 UTC

I have never had a lockout situation happen so quickly and dramatically and had no chance to release as I have always thought I could do.

Why the funky one point release that you'll have no chance of actuating the only time you'll NEED to?

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up

Jim Rooney - 2009/11/02 18:58:13 UTC

Oh yeah... an other fun fact for ya... ya know when it's far more likely to happen? During a lockout. When we're doing lockout training, the odds go from 1 in 1,000 to over 50/50.

Why the funky bridles which - even if, by some miracle, you DO manage to pry open in a lockout before you slam into the runway - weld themselves to the tow ring over half the time?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 14:04:52 UTC

We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year.

Why the funky one size fits all fishing line which increases the safety of the towing operation by forcing everyone to launch and emergency land multiple times to try to make it to twenty feet off the runway?

Oh yeah...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 21:40:25 UTC

See, the thing is... "we", the people that work at and run aerotow parks, have a long track record.
This stuff isn't new, and has been slowly refined over decades.
We have done quite literally hundreds of thousands of tows.
We know what we're doing.

"You", the people that work at and run aerotow parks, have a long track record.
This stuff isn't new, and has been slowly refined over decades.
You have done quite literally hundreds of thousands of tows.
You know what you're doing.

What was I thinking about questioning your competence and the equipment you've slowly refined over decades and quite literally hundreds of thousands of tows? Forget I mentioned it.

You've already got a Kotch release... why not just use it as intended?

- Why not spell KOTCH and BRIDAL as intended?
- What BRIDAL?

I'm serious...

Oh. Keen Intellect Jim is serious. Everybody hush now and listen carefully.

someone obviously looked at everything and thought there was a reason.

Well! If SOMEONE *OBVIOUSLY* LOOKED at EVERYTHING and THOUGHT there was a REASON then we mere NO ONES should NEVER *QUESTION* that person's THINKING.

I can't work out what it would be...

Whoa! Even with your keen intellect? Well then, Yours Truly wouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell - so I won't even waste my time thinking about it.

...but I'll put money that they had something in mind.

Yeah, Keen Intellect Jim, people who actually DO things to come up with solutions to problems in this sport so very often do. So that's probably a good bet.

Asshole.

P.S. Thanks, Keen Intellect Jim. Yet another classic.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30123
Step towing in Holland

Brad Gryder - 2012/11/30 09:45:10 UTC

Yeah. I agree with Mark and Jim.

DANGER... DANGER... DANGER...

I learned a long time ago that hard metal hurts. My lesson came right after an overloaded weak link did its job.

Yeah Brad, that's the job of the weak link. To blow when it's overloaded.
- Fuck what's going on with the glider. (Do we get to hear what was going on with the glider? Just kidding.)
- Marvelous how somebody was able to engineer a device to blow when it's overloaded, isn't it?

What WILL they think of next?
- A piece of paper that catches on fire when it's overheated?
- A balloon that pops when it's overinflated?
- A goldfish that dies when it's oversalinated?

The possibilities and implications are mind-boggling.

The quick-link pinged me right between the eyes, but fortunately I was wearing glasses and it impacted on the nose bridge of my glasses. It still hurt a lot! I think I remember it still brought blood.

Good thing you were using a polypro bridle to keep the weak link from doing its job even sooner.

Dr. Trisa Tilletti - 2012/06

Without shock absorption, a Spectra bridle acts somewhat like an impact wrench on the weak link.

Without shock absorption, a Spectra bridle acts somewhat like an impact wrench on the weak link.

A split bridle with no metallic parts out front (like most of us around here ended up using) makes more sense to me.

So does a weak link which does its job by blowing when it's overload. So I'm not real interested in what most of you around there ended up using and what makes more sense to you.

Like Jim, I'm curious as to just why it's being done this more complicated way.

- Jim, CURIOUS? That brain dead parasitic motherfucker has never been CURIOUS about a goddam thing in his entire malignant existence. All he does is figure out what the majority of people are using and doing and viciously attack any innovations he can get in his crosshairs so he can maximize his popularity within the cult of douchebags who dominate this sport and illusions of competence and superiority.

- You're curious? GOOD! So am I.

-- But even if his reason for doing it this way is totally moronic I still gotta admire and respect someone who's demonstrated a lot of ability to think outside of the box and engineer an original approach to conducting this operation.

-- And that originality has allowed ME to take off on that solution and engineer a solution to surface towing superior to the way it's been conducted for the past three decades.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30123
Step towing in Holland

Mark Dowsett - 2012/11/30 10:46:14 UTC

You were lucky Cloud Hopper - our friend Michael Robertson...

You can keep him as your friend. The guy's a sleazeball.

...lost his eye payout winch operating when the line (with metal ring) snapped back at him.

- On the BOAT - not the GLIDER - end of the operation.
- With a looooong streeeeetched polypro towline aimed at him.
- After an overloaded Hewett link did its job when the glider was climbing normally.

I'm not happy the motherfucker got hit in the eye but it's not like he was just an innocent victim either. And he's never done shit to help get elastic materials out of circulation and weak links up to safe ratings.

The only thing I can think of is that he is trying to avoid the snap of a longer under-line at transition.

Good, Mark. I hadn't thought of that. That's probably right and I'll give you some points.

For us, that too often causes a weak-link break (even a properly calibrated one)...

Back to war...
EVEN a PROPERLY CALIBRATED one?
PROPERLY CALIBRATED to WHAT?

Towing Aloft - 1998/01

Weak links very clearly will provide protection from excessive angles of attack, high bank turns and the like for this form of towing.

Provide protection from excessive angles of attack, high bank turns, and the like for that form of towing?
You can use two G weak links no problem and you're not gonna blow a two G weak link by blowing the first stage.

...or a double release.

Why should a jolt precipitate a double release? If it does you've got a serious hardware problem.

Wild guess...

http://vimeo.com/48762486


One of the junk Koch knockoffs Mike perpetrates on his students and customers?

We try to circumvent the first issue with dialing down tow tension prior to the release which works most of the time.

Well that's just great, Mark. I so do enjoy flying with stuff that works MOST of the time.

Did you try dialing UP the weak link strength? Or are you properly calibrating it to one G - a good rule of thumb for the optimum strength? Just kidding.

We are working on a redesign of the release to help with the double-release issue.

- Who's "WE"?

- Did you bother to consult...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=11497
Aerotow release options?

John Glime - 2009/04/13 18:09:32 UTC

Rick,

Not being constructive? There is one person who has put more thought and time into releases than anyone. That person is Tad. He explains the pros and cons to every release out there. I gave you the link to more release information than the average person could ever digest, and I didn't get a thank you. Just you bitching that we aren't being constructive. What more could you want? He has created something that is a solution, but no one is using it... apparently you aren't interested either. So what gives??? What do you want us to tell you? Your concerns echo Tad's concerns, so why not use his system? Every other system out there has known flaws.

...Yours Truly?

There is a technique that can greatly reduce the chances of it happening but it isn't fool proof and honestly hurts my fingers most times.

- Yeah, well I can guide you through to something that totally eliminates the chances of it happening, is foolproof, and honestly does NOTHING to fingers ANY time.

- So what's wrong with the way Sander's doing it? I don't see any significant problems and he doesn't seem to be getting his fingers hurt.

Either issue can be a big danger if you release inadvertently with high nose angle low to the ground.

OH!!! REALLY!!!

Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson

- So what's your take on this position:

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01

Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.
It's more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.

from Keen Intellect Rooney?

- Why don't you just use safer weak links...

Towing Aloft - 1998/01

Weak links very clearly will provide protection from excessive angles of attack, high bank turns and the like for this form of towing.

...to more clearly provide protection from excessive angles of attack, high bank turns, and the like for that form of towing?

We don't increase tensions until a successful transition (to the lower line) occurs.

- Yeah, I guess not. At lower altitudes you really can't afford to have a properly calibrated...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 02:44:10 UTC

The "purpose" of a weaklink is to increase the safety of the towing operation. PERIOD.

...weak link increasing the safety of the towing operation. PERIOD.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjncKQ02FJ8

0:50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR_4jKLqrus

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYe3YmdIQTM
tow.MPG
larswet - 2012/02/26
17-0617

31-0923

0:51
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WtDFymXlPU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ba_rO_VAhGk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMsIkAOeJ0I


- Can you imagine a possible situation in which you...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=11497
Aerotow release options?

Helen McKerral - 2009/06/29 06:32:32 UTC

The three times I narrowly avoided injury when car towing was purely through luck, not skill (stopping was not an option - I could only screech, MORE TENSION MORE TENSION MORE TENSION and hope the vehicle had enough oomph to get me up).

...NEED to increase tension before a successful transition (to the lower line) occurs?

- What happens if you need it but can't deliver it?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30123
Step towing in Holland

Oh crap...

Bart Weghorst - 2012/11/30 17:59:17 UTC

Sander is using the standard method for foot launching and ground-based towing in Northern Europe. This has been around for at least twenty years and it is a proven concept. It is not without drawbacks but it does solve some safety issues that are inherent in other systems. The discussion comes up every time someone sees the method for the first time. I would like to offer some arguments for using this system.

First: Metal parts on the towline or bridle in front of you are only a safety issue if the line or bridle between the pilot and the metal stretches. If it doesn't stretch and there is no elasticity, the metal does not really sling back to the pilot in case something breaks.

Second: Being attached to two lines at the same time, one over and one under a primary flight control like the base tube with one slack and allowed to flap in the breeze, all during a critical phase in flight, has created safety issues. With this system, the pilot is attached to only one line during launch.

Last: This method solves the shock in the towline that comes from switching over-under.

A fully intelligent post from Bart.

[Tad Eareckson]

Told ya so, Antoine.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30123
Step towing in Holland

Mark Dowsett - 2012/12/01 18:55:45 UTC

I'll agree with the first point. Today's tow ropes don't have stretch to them.

They do when fucking morons like Davis, Russell Brown, and Dr. Trisa Tilletti try to use them to prevent the focal point of their safe towing systems from increasing the safety of their towing operations quite as frequently.

And a short line like that won't recoil much.

Even if somebody IS stupid enough to use elastic materials.

I wouldn't feel comfortable with the complexity of attaching the under-line as seen in the video.

And without even trying that you already know that you wouldn't be comfortable with it. Sounds a lot like all the assholes who refuse to EVER use lift and tug because it will almost certainly result in instant death or, at the very least, give a false sense of security.

I'm not sure about the wind and thermal conditions during the tow and was impressed with the smoothness the pilot does it... especially on a high performance glider.

- Bart JUST TOLD YOU that they've been doing it that way for TWENTY YEARS so it's a pretty safe bet that they've been doing it in any conditions you wanna name - ESPECIALLY strong thermal.

- He DOESN'T do it smoothly. He fumbles. It takes him four attempts to make the connection which cost him an extra two seconds. Do it with the carabiner like I suggested and you should be good for one.

- High performance glider. Big fucking deal.

However, in most windy and/or thermally conditions, I'd never feel comfortable taking my hand off the control bar for that long that close to the ground.

- Again - Without ever even trying it.

- You're taking your hand off ANYWAY at virtually the same time to blow the first stage. A second or two to release the bottom is OK but three or four to make the connection isn't?

- You'd NEVER feel comfortable with the idea of taking your hand off the basetube at a time of your choosing with the glider under control in most windy and/or thermally conditions but you ALWAYS feel comfortable going up with a system that will FORCE you to take your hand off the basetube at any point in the event of a low level lockout to MAYBE have a chance of surviving. I'm having just a bit of trouble following your logic here, dude.

Everyone has their own way of doing things...

Yeah. Best equipment and procedures are determined on the basis of geography. Is this a great sport or what!

...but I'll stick to our methods.

Why am I not surprised.

I'd rather transition late (high), slightly reduce tension on the winch (to reduce snap and risk of double release) and have the split-Y-bridle than mess around with attaching a new tow line in-flight.

So don't even give it a shot.

These people STARTED OUT doing it the conventional way. Then they switched and never looked back. So it's pretty fucking obvious that their way is superior.

Hang glider towing took a MASSIVE step backwards because Donnell bundled an innovation, routing the bottom bridle connection to the pilot instead of the control frame, with a bunch of lunatic crap - fishing line pitch and lockout limiters to compensate for inaccessible releases, nylon towlines to replace constant tension payout winches, gradual transitions to and from tow, tension gauges, observers, and radios.

But, other than that disaster, hang gliding evolves - very slowly - forward. And when better equipment and procedures are allowed into the air and practice - people don't go back.
- Landings and tow launches are increasingly made on and from wheels.
- Payout winches and platform launches replaced static tow and foot launches.
- One to one and one point bridles have replaced Hewett Bridles.
- Koch two stage releases have replaced Hewett releases.
- People with bite controlled aerotow releases don't buy shit from Quest and Davis.
- Weak links are getting stronger and heading towards one and a half Gs.
- Towlines and bridles went from nylon to Spectra.
- Lift and tuggers don't degenerate to Aussie Methodists and hang checkers.

Especially for new pilots and students.

Fuck new pilots and students.

- New pilots and students don't need to go up to second stage level.

- After they're trained to tow let them practice making the transition. They're not gonna be any worse at it than Sander with his three fumbles was.

Good discussion though! North Americans aren't nearly as familiar with ground based towing... they don't know what they are missing!

And ground based towers don't know what they're missing by not towing behind some shitheaded Dragonfly driver with a finger on the release lever who won't allow them to fly anything heavier than a standard aerotow weak link because his ass is on the line too.

Ya know sumpin' Mark? Whenever I had an opportunity to try something new or different in hang gliding - gliders, sites, tow rigs, tugs, bridles, release systems - I took it. And I often improved upon what was being used or done. So what will you have done to leave hang gliding any better than it was when you found it? You won't even try following the lead of people who've done the thinking and flight testing for you.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30123
Step towing in Holland

Brad Gryder - 2012/12/03 10:47:54 UTC

I have to admit that when I got slapped we were still using springy bridles made from hollow-braid poly.

Big surprise.

The spring was good for smoothing out shock loads...

- So's the sag in the towline, the flex of the glider, and the elasticity of the air in which you're flying.
- So tell us what problems you're having with "shock loads" now that you're NOT still using springy bridles made from hollow-braid poly.

The "shock loading" issue is pure unadulterated bullshit.

...but bad if you were on the wrong end of the loaded sling shot.

- Duh.
- There is NOTHING good about elastic materials ANYWHERE in a tow system.

Sorry to hear about Michael's accident. I didn't know he'd lost an eye.

I agree with Mark that many US pilots are missing some opportunity if ground-based towing isn't considered.

Ya know how they're REALLY missing some opportunity?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 14:04:52 UTC

We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 19:39:17 UTC

Weak links break for all kinds of reasons.
Some obvious, some not.

The general consensus is the age old adage... "err on the side of caution".

The frustration of a weaklink break is just that, frustration.
And it can be very frustrating for sure. Especially on a good day, which they tend to be. It seems to be a Murphy favourite. You'll be in a long tug line on a stellar day just itching to fly. The stars are all lining up when *bam*, out of nowhere your trip to happy XC land goes up in a flash. Now you've got to hike it all the way back to the back of the line and wait as the "perfect" window drifts on by.

I get it.
It can be a pisser.

But the "other side"... the not cautions one... is not one of frustration, it's one of very real danger.
Better to be frustrated than in a hospital, or worse.
No exaggeration... this is the fire that the "other side" is made of. Best not to play with it.

By letting a bunch of stupid scummy Flight Park Mafia shits convince them that towing up on chintzy fishing line is the only thing keeping them from certain and instant death. And I don't recall you ever breathing a word in opposition to that crap and strongly suspect that you're part of the problem.

Before many of us moved from the mountains to aerotowing in my area, we were stationary winch towing. We had some soaring flights back then, but with twenty more years of meteorological knowledge, glider performance increase, and thermal skills improvement we'd do so much better now.

In this 'new economy', and with the increased regulation/hassle/cost of aerotowing, ground-based towing deserves a second look.

Keep the fucking Dragonfly assholes the hell away from the process.

I'd have no problem trying the two stage towing method shown in the Holland video, now that the reason for it has been explained (thanks Bart).

I'd have no problem trying it even if it the reason for it HADN'T been explained. Compare the risk involved to that of a foot launched tow, flying with a loop 130 pound Greenspot in the system, or a light air standup landing.

Knowing that it's a proven method that's been successfully applied by others makes it easier to consider trying.

- Fuck that. You can just look at or think about it.

- I get really tired of parasites who want OTHERS to risk flying with straight pin releases before they'll risk switching over from the tried and true bent pin shit with its long track record.

- "Proven methods" are absolutely the biggest killers in hang gliding.

Mark Dowsett - 2012/12/03 11:33:01 UTC

Michael's accident was thirty years ago!

It wasn't an accident.

He's doing just fine!

He's not. He's still missing an eye.

And I am betting their rope back then had some stretch to it.

There's no fucking way it didn't have TONS of stretch to it. Something like that can't BEGIN to happen in the absence of stored energy.

It was obviously polypro. He was using poly because:
- it floats; and
- he's not all that bright.

It still wouldn't have been a serious problem without something in the system to unleash all that stored energy but, like I said, he's not all that bright.

If you do try the stationary winch towing, please make sure you try it on a Falcon first. I've seen seasoned pilots try it on their high-performance gliders and not fair out so well - I can say that from personal experience!

I'm having a hard time understanding why somebody who's flown aero - which is the most demanding/dangerous flavor of string powered hang gliding - should have any surprises on stationary winch.

[Steve Davy]

Tad,

I wonder if the difference between static friction and kinetic friction is the cause of the force required to activate a barrel release going down as the barrel is pulled back. When you ran tests did you see a spike in the force just prior to the barrel actualy moving?

[Tad Eareckson]

I'm sure that's the case but I can't give you any numbers.

I conducted the tests by slowly pouring water into a suspended bucket connected to the loaded mechanism via a length of leechline and weighing the bucket after the blow.

But I can totally guarantee you that once a barrel starts moving it'll keep moving.

[Steve Davy]

I had forgotten how you loaded the barrel when doing those tests. Sorry 'bout that.

If there is some way to get the friction between the barrel and the pin WAY higher, then I think more people would be inclined to use straight pin releases. I suspect shortening the pin and/or using a larger diameter barrel would do the trick. What do you think, Tad?