Jonathan is definitely several notches above the dog shit that constitutes the vast majority of this sport but it's still a real bad idea to use his name in the same sentence with...
I voted for Bob after spending a very enjoyable hour on the telephone with him a few months ago. My impression of Bob is that he is a level headed and enthusiastic supporter of both hang gliding and paragliding, and above all: SAFETY.
...the word "wisdom".
Whatever you decide to do, please build your landing skills to the point that you don't need your wheels.
Sure guys. Now let's start by compiling a list of people who've built their landing skills to the point that they don't need their wheels. Then all the Hang Twos can consult with them and learn how to do it. Zack Marcek's name comes to mind and... No wait. No, I've got nuthin'.
If you really care about your vanity then stick your landings regardless of what you fly.
My vanity can go fuck itself. Humility is a much better ingredient for success in aviation. Hard to wrong assuming you're always just about to screw a pooch and taking a course of action to minimize the possibility.
And I have ZERO interest in "STICKING" my landings. I just wanna land smoothly, safely, competently. My primary concern is not to provide entertainment - of one kind or another - for the pigfuckers in the breakdown area.
There's nothing prettier than a well-executed landing at the end of each flight.
And there's not much uglier than what FREQUENTLY happens when...
Sat was nice but had it's challenges. mostly in the LZ. Sunday was sat on steroids. A forecast saying it was going to get stronger to 20 mph on the ground later in the day. That is opposite of normal but it happens. Many of us went to tony's launch and It was blowing, Gusting to 18 mph when we arrived. Snow rapidly developed from the Nw and NE toward the catskills.
Cool. Any way I can get one of those shift keys that goes on and off at random?
These were H-4 + conditions.
'Cause Fours are always good for handling stuff that can overwhelm a Three.
Most would not fly these conditions because the LZ is hit by rotors and gust.
Even the Hang Fives?
It is extremely dangerous. If I fly in those conditions I have no intent on landing in that valley.
Many other pilots showed up. Like most senior pilots I gave everyone my assessment of the day. Especially the younger pilots. many were gun-ho to fly and don't have the experience to know what they are really looking at.
But have been signed off on their ratings anyway.
As the day progressed the wind pick up and some set up hoping it would calm down a bit. One young pilot harnessed up and was preparing to fly. I gave them...
I thought it was just one young pilot.
...my opinion they they should not be the wind dummy today. They backed off. soon the wind back off. A lull! A H-4 decided to launch. The H-4 that the young pilot had arrived with. It was obvious there was a desire for the younger pilot to follow the pilot she had arrived with.
What happened to the other one(s) so quickly?
I had giving strong advice that the condition were over her head but I had not said don't fly. I regret that in hind sight.
They launched in the lull and it picked back up.
Sounds like they're back again. Must've been a nice lull for all of them to be able to get off in it.
The young pilot...
Which one? This is SO confusing.
...headed out to land after about 20 mins. she was high and it looked strong and turbulent as she was working her way down. She made a Down wind base and final, DBF approach from joe's house. It didn't look bad.
Meaning she was still prone with both hands on the basetube.
She turned into the field on final and was 1/3 of the way up the field when she transitioned.
So then what happened? Did her situation:
- deteriorate?
- remain the same?
- improve?
She lost the pitch.
DAMN! Who coulda seen THAT coming!
The glider did a quick 180 and now she is headed downwind.
Sounds like she lost the roll too! And here I was thinking that the reduction in pitch authority would be...
Bob Kuczewski - 2012/01/17 19:31:28 UTC
I have to agree with miguel here. I believe pitch authority is greater on the base tube, but roll authority is much quicker and more authoritative when upright. No doubt about it.
...balanced out by an increase in roll authority. Live and learn.
On launch we watched in horror. She flew downwind at 40mph ground speed past the SW side of the training hill into Tony's back yard and disappeared from our sight. Although we could still see the glider moving through the trees. She had landed down wind on the wheels between tony's shop and house. The wheels dug in and the glider turtled. She and the glider were unhurt. We called Greg Black. He went out and checked it out and helped right the glider. He called back and said she was OK.
And she was still OK. Kinda makes ya wonder a bit how her landing would've gone if she had just stayed prone with her hands on the basetube and landed UPwind.
This was a miracle ending to a terrible situation. Every such incident I have witnessed has ended with serious damage to the pilot and glider. Many have ended with paralysis or death.
So, for the purpose of the exercise, she was killed, right?
I feel very responsible for this incident.
How 'bout her instructor(s)?
As senior pilot on launch I had the option of saying don't fly.
What? Only senior pilot on launch have that option?
I had explain just such an incident to the pilot before launch, but I had left the decision up to the pilot.
Did you explain to her that in the conditions she would likely encounter in the LZ that stopping the glider on her feet might not be one of her top priorities?
I know I am not the club safety officer but it is commonly excepted in our sport that senior pilots can stop younger pilots from flying in bad conditions.
So senior pilots are automatically superior to younger pilots? I didn't know that.
The experienced pilots are mostly free to fly in stupid conditions.
Yeah, that's one convention I can really get behind.
They are often idiots but they have a good chance of surviving and most of them had survived worst days then sunday.
Name some hang gliding people who AREN'T idiots.
The younger pilots have almost no chance.
If I duct tape her hands to the basetube I'll put her up against a Hang Five mandatory foot lander in those conditions and give you ten to one odds.
The prudent decision for the preservation of the site and pilots would have been to close launch for everyone if conditions did not improve and The forecast was against that happening.
I apologize for not being more assertive
Wanna say anything about the point at which things went to hell and just how much going for a foot landing increased the safety of the landing operation? Just kidding.
2013/03/05 15:41:05 UTC - 3 thumbs up - NMERider
2013/03/05 15:46:53 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Glenn Zapien
No surprises there.
Davis Straub - 2013/03/05 13:48:43 UTC
Lookout?
Yeah Davis - Tony's launch, Catskills, DBF approach from joe's house, training hill, Tony's backyard, house, and shop, Greg Black, club safety officer... Lookout.
Kinsley Sykes - 2013/03/05 14:18:21 UTC
Ellenville
Duh.
Guest - 2013/03/05 14:35:38 UTC
History repeats.
Why can't we get a handle on this safety thing?
Here are a couple of thoughts:
Gil Dodgen - 1995/01
All of this reminds me of a comment Mike Meier made when he was learning to fly sailplanes. He mentioned how easy it was to land a sailplane (with spoilers for glide-path control and wheels), and then said, "If other aircraft were as difficult to land as hang gliders no one would fly them."
I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.
Had a Safety Director been present, would he or she have been able to control the activities? How?
Tell her not to fly?
Tell everybody that this was not a foot landing afternoon?
Wire cutters?
Oh, I hadn't thought of that. Yeah, just go around cutting people's sidewires. Just make sure that when you cut my sidewires you have your helmet on and buckled and somebody watching your six.
Lookout had similar conditions- cold, windy, and a low base. Lots of flying. One guy got blown behind the ridge face on his Point Run and had to land at the golf course on the east brow.
He landed at a GOLF COURSE?!?!?!
miguel - 2012/02/03 18:32:08 UTC
Spoken like a pilot who flies at green circle sites with putting greens for lzs.
SURELY he could've found a narrow dry riverbed with large rock strewn all over the place.
Good thing it was there, eh?
Fuck that. What incentive do you have for perfecting your standup spot landings if you're just gonna land at whatever Happy Acres putting green is available when you're flying XC and get into trouble.
I'm betting this particular pilot's actions have been positively reinforced as a result.
Anyboby rethinking just how much safer foot landings are making everyone? Just kidding.
Dennis Cavagnaro - 2013/03/05 15:21:32 UTC
Unfortunately this happens every year in New England. We start our season in playoff conditions with spring training abilities. I agree all clubs need more then just the safety officer to monitor flying sites.
In other words, USHGA's instructional system sucks and our Twos and Threes are totally incapable of assessing conditions and making go / no go calls on their own.
Bad news from the Europeans in Millau - and it's not just about the weather!
This is the major hang gliding event of the season and was expected to be the highlight of the European competition flying. Due to a most competent organising team around meet director Richard Walbec everybody expected only the very best from it.
Now, one task into the meet we are all hanging our heads as we just get confirmation about the fatal accident of Croatian team pilot Ljubomir Tomaskovic. He apparently encountered some strong turbulences on his landing approach. He got pitched up and turned around from a strong gust at low altitude, then impacted tailwind into some treetops from where he fell hard onto the ground.
...screwed this pooch.
Big turbulent air that most would not want any part of.
The big turbulent air wasn't the big fuckin' problem. The big fuckin' problem was:
She turned into the field on final and was 1/3 of the way up the field when she transitioned.
And that could've happened to ANYBODY stupid enough to prioritize foot landing over safety no matter how dangerous the conditions - regardless of rating, hours, skills, age, or size or presence of testicles.
Don't be hard on yourself Dave just take it as a sign to be more resolute the next time.
So we're saying that it was perfectly OK for the Four dude she came with to launch 'cause NO WAY that this could've happened to him. But 'cause this was a cute little new Hang Three chick we're gonna focus on that issue and never hear the end of it.
BULLSHIT.
- If it wasn't safe for her it wasn't safe for anybody.
- And if it wasn't safe for anybody then Hang Four dude was just as irresponsible for flying and the crowd at launch was just as irresponsible for not making any effort to get him to reconsider.
- There's no such thing as safe Hang Four conditions. Anything that isn't safe for a solid 3.0 isn't safe for ANYBODY.
Luckily everyone got a free pass on this.
Yeah, this is hang gliding and everybody almost always does. So we're gonna continue seeing hundreds of thousands of flights of assholes being pro toad on bent pin releases and Rooney Links into thermal conditions - and that will continue even after the next inexplicable freak accident.
Thanks for the advice . Yeah, it was at Ellenville.
A better way to approach such situations would have been to clearly say IT IS H4 cobditions ! H2s H3s do not fly .
Twos, OK. Threes...
Unless condition change.
Conditions change while people are in the air - for the better and worse. Conditions change while people are turning onto final.
That way everyone gets the message and no young pilots feel like they are being singled out, Plus if they try to fly there is a group consenus for safety reasons that they are not allowed at that time.
So there's an automatic correlation between age and proficiency. A fifty year old Hang Two is always gonna trump a twenty-five year old Hang Five.
I'm sure this has been learned and implemented before and I am sorry I didn't already know this. But for those senior pilots that may find themselves in the same postion this good to think about.
Fuck senior pilots. I don't see the slightest indication of people improving with age in this sport.
...every year I strongly suggest to many pilots that they don't fly and they always listen. I give them all the good reasons they shouldn't fly and try to let them figure it out . Only in the worst case do I say don't do it.
How many times have you advised someone...
Christian Thoreson - 2004/10
Thus wheel landings, the safest and easiest way to consistently land a hang glider...
...to use the most consistently safe and easy way to land?
We were all lucky this time. Sometimes its better to be lucky then skillfull, But don't count on it.
I can count on this, douchebag. You demand something for which there is ABSOLUTELY NO NEED that requires skill at critical phase of flight you WILL crash, cripple, and kill A LOT of people.
The bone yards are full of pilots that had an empty bucket of luck.
Pretty much all successful standup landings in demanding conditions are matters of luck.
Guest - 2013/03/05 20:02:31 UTC
What this seems to highlight is the basic flaw of our so-called 'self-regulating' activities.
Yeah?
12-02.20 Addendum 1 – Optional Landing Task
At the discretion of the Observer or Instructor and not the pilot, this task may be substituted for the "three spot landings in a row" task. The optional landing task must only be used when the spot landing task is not practical or potentially dangerous.
SELF regulating?
There is a clearly defined rating system in effect...
Bullshit.
...but we're dealing with Weather.
We're dealing primarily with stunt landings. She'd have had ZERO trouble landing if she hadn't been trained to go and gone for a stunt landing.
That and the all-powerful social dynamics that is Launch.
This pilot should be asking you if there was any good reason to launch, like you were asking yourself, rather than you feeling compelled to prevent the launch, because they...
I see we're multiplying again.
...haven't learned patience and restraint, because that can't be taught and they're still 'new.' And the wind is blowing in.
You were caught in a trap when you showed up at launch. By doing so you became part of the event. How would your absence have affected the outcome?
I'll bet if I had been there she could've flown and the landing would've been a nonevent. And, hell, even if she'd told me to go fuck myself it would've still been lotsa fun for me.
It also sounds like the worst kind of day to deal with.
I got to Morningside around noon yesterday (2007/06/24) and saw lots of people around a glider lying on the aerotow field grass. Police sirens and two ambulances were coming in behind me. Here's what I heard or saw:
- Pilot had just aerotowed and was coming in for landing. Winds were switchy, West then NW @ 10-12 with gusts.
- Pilot was not landing downwind, but heading mostly West on approach.
- Glider did flip, either near ground or when touching down.
- Pilot was conscious but could not move arms and/or legs.
- Green "Life Star" helicopter arrived approximately a half hour later. Took pilot to Dartmouth-Hitchcock Hospital in Hanover/Lebanon, New Hampshire. (The very best hospital around!)
- Pilot's wife (Debbie) was extremely distraught. She had videotaped flight but turned it off as he was coming in for expected uneventful landing.
- Later saw Mike Onorato's glider - his Exxtacy rigid wing. Both wing sections seemed intact, but one downtube was broken and the carbon fiber base bar was completely severed at each end.
I am at the trauma center in Lebanon, New Hampshire called Dartmouth Hitchcock and I found their computer. I thought I would write and let you know how much I appreciate your email.
Mike is still in the ICU since Sunday. He is confirmed as being quadriplegic. I was informed in the ER on Sunday, but hoped 48 hours would maybe make the doctors wrong.
It's marginal, but is it marginally good or marginally bad? The line is shifting from go to no-go and back again. What was it that brought so many pilots to launch?
I dunno... What was Dave doing out there?
Optimism, despite the reality that a strong cold front has not yet passed but was in fact still in the area.
On the other hand, it should be very clear what "Hang Four Plus" means to everyone present at launch, even if it's the opinion of one.
Yeah. Despite the fact that there ain't no sech fuckin' animal it should be very clear. Just like the "appropriate weak link" Wills Wing tells us all we should use.
Not to worry, there are plenty more of those days coming.
Not for a lot of people. And only a very small percentage of the people not still around in hang gliding are not around for reasons of inappropriate flying conditions.
2013/03/06 15:03:35 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Helix
flybop - 2013/03/05 20:04:41 UTC
Livingston, Montana
Dave, this seems more like a problem with an individual pilot not willing to take advice, and more importantly, unable to assess the conditions. From your write-up it seems that you did and said what you could. Sometimes it is just the case of what the great philosopher Ron White says, "You can't fix stupid."
Tell me about it. Especially when everybody's got his nose stuck up Stupid's ass.
Without naming names can you tell us more about the pilot: what rating, how long flying...
...instructor...
...overall impression of them...
HER - ferchrisake.
...prior to this, etc?
Robert Seckold - 2013/03/05 22:53:30 UTC
Is this not also the old old problem of pilots transitioning at the WRONG BLOODY time!!!!!
Goddam bloody right it was. And on this flight I'd say that ANY time was the wrong bloody time.
Was the pilot in ground effect when she transitioned or in the 100-15 feet danger zone.
Sorry dude. Sometimes the danger zone goes down to ZERO feet.
Dave Hopkins - 2013/03/06 00:03:30 UTC
The pilot...
Who ceased being a pilot and became a passenger the instant she took a hand off the basetube...
...has been flying several yrs. A young h3 . I had helped her with several of her earlier soaring flight. She has a new to her double surface. I fly with her often. She does very good in appropriate conditions. The conditions in the LZ this day were just plain dangerous.
Dangerous conditions, insanely dangerous landing technique... Do the math.
I would not land there. It was cold strong gusty NW air and ellenvilles narrow NE, SW valley becomes a rotor hole.
She had done well getting down...
No shit.
...but as we all know it's that last 100 ft that is the real test in trashy landing conditions.
Bad time to be radically compromising control, isn't it?
She didn't want to slow down but wanted to transition .
In other words... She didn't want to slow down but she wanted (was brainwashed) to go to a configuration that automatically slows her down and removes the option of going fast.
BAD DECSION !
What fuckin' idiot signed her off?
This was the time to fly it to the ground in prone and transition in ground effect if at all.
Yeah Dave - *IF* *AT* *ALL*.
So did you tell her that before she launched? How 'bout after her little hang glider landing adventure?
This is very advanced flying.
BULLSHIT.
Small misjudgements will hurt you.
That was no way in hell a "small misjudgment". That was a huge catastrophic misjudgment as old as the sport that could've easily gotten her killed.
She must have been about 75' and the glider did a quick 180 to the right when she tried to transition.
Any conclusions we can draw at this point? No wait...
Ah but hg'ers get so uppity when you tell them not to speculate.
I forgot about the rule that we're not allowed to speculate. Sorry.
...she should have kept turning back into the wind but she was too inexperienced for that maneuver.
1. But she was experienced enough to transition and proficient enough to get her Three signed off.
2. And, hell, if she HAD pulled off the transition OK she'd have undoubtedly been JUST FINE coming down the rest of the way upright.
She flew down wind about 800' before impacting on the base tube and flipping on to the king post. I'm sure she has some bruises.
So she landed DOWNWIND in that crap - probably still upright 'cause you haven't noted anything to the contrary - and walked away in pretty good shape from a glider that was probably still perfectly OK. But these were Hang Four Plus conditions.
Guest - 2013/03/06 00:46:05 UTC
How did the other pilots fare?
What was it that drew all the pilots to launch?
I dunno... The possibility of getting some airtime without having to suck some Dragonfly driver's dick and risk having him make a good decision in the interest of your safety?
Sounds like a great day to do something else.
Checkers?
Cabin fever?
Tom Galvin - 2013/03/06 01:26:12 UTC
Ellenville is like a box of chocolates.
Go fuck yourself, Tom.
2013/03/06 14:58:45 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Helix
David Brose - 2013/03/06 01:51:23 UTC
Humboldt, California
land into the wind.com
Yeah Dave, she didn't know that. Why don't you tell her that she must be hooked into her glider before running off launch as well?
Fly the glider from the CONTROL bar so you can keep it under CONTROL enough to land it in the wind.
Nic Welbourn - 2013/03/06 02:12:29 UTC
Canberra
Hm, tough one.
Here in Oz the etiquette is to never directly tell the pilot-in-comand what to do or not do...
We are militant with this sort of thing down here. Anyone seen walking around in their harness unhooked are immediately pulled up, by everyone. Not sure of the reaction if the justification was to keep the harness clean or scratched free, or that it was uncomfortable to bend over because there was extra weight to carry, or they have a sore back. It would probably be advice along the lines of 'harden the f^&k up'.
Here is the requirement from the 2007 Worlds local rules (which I wrote) for weaklinks:
Pilots must use weaklinks provided by the meet organizers and in a manner approved by the meet organizers. All weaklinks will be checked and use of inappropriate weaklinks will require the pilot to go to the end of the launch line to change the weaklink.
Weaklinks will consist of a single loop of Cortland 130 lb Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line and should be placed at one end of a shoulder bridle.
Right.
...which has it's advantages and flaws.
Locally, Senior Safety officers will offer advice (sometimes strong) but do not 'police' sites, except perhaps by reporting the pilot to our national organisation if they fly and do not have the rating required for a particular site. But things seem to work differently in the US.
Both dumps are total fucking disaster areas.
Not exactly sure about the rules but your issue sounds more like Intermediate Syndrome than anything else... humans tend to do not believe something until they experience it for themselves (ie. being scared sh!tless in the sky or whatever).
Quite the quandary but in my opinion you shouldn't be feeling guilty for your actions. Sometimes folks just won't listen!
Idiot.
Guest - 2013/03/06 02:18:13 UTC
LMFP is eerily similar to Ellenville.
But seriously, when conditions are as strong as Dave describes, what draws pilots to launch?
Dave describes it gusting all the way up to EIGHTEEN...
- seven miles per hour under the twenty-five mile per hour recommended limit for (new) Hang Threes
- a wee bit over half the punch the recommended limit delivers
How does this gathering affect a pilot's decision to launch?
Get over it. There was nothing imprudent about the decision to launch.
It's painfully clear that <she> should not have been allowed to launch - being hang 3 and all - but she did.
She didn't have a problem with launch. She didn't have a problem with ANY part of the flight - UNTIL... The moment she prioritized stunt landing over aviation.
According to my understanding of the current USHPA rating system, she should not have set up. She's a hang 3 and it's blowing hang four plus.
1. According to the current USHPA rating system...
With each flight, demonstrates a method of establishing that the pilot is hooked in just prior to launch.
...every foot launch is supposed to be immediately preceded by a hook-in check. What percentage of them do you think are carried out in compliance?
2. The "RECOMMENDED Operating Limitations for Intermediate Pilots" are:
Should fly only in winds of 25 mph or less, with gust differential of 10 mph or less.
3. There are no regulations, SOPs, or guidelines about what one is allowed to set up in.
4. There are no references to conditions with respect to Hang Four.
5. And there sure as hell aren't any with respect to "Hang Four Plus".
6. Your understanding of the current USHPA rating system totally sucks, dude. Try reading it before you try understanding it.
The question is; how does the rating system fail in a group like this, when the stakes are so high?
It's a fuckin' moronic HANG GLIDING group. Name something that HASN'T been failing left and right for the past three decades.
The hard way.
I thought you were supposed to get all that misjudgement stuff out of the way before you get your H3.
Really? What fatality reports have YOU been reading?
I took one look at the windsock at Crestline the other day and tucked tale. Had the H3's/H4's giving me grief about sack size.
OP's a Three who's only broken an arm once so far, Mike Blankenhorn's still a Two... So what LA Basin Disciples of Testicular Aviation are you talking about and when did Joe and Rob sign them off?
Good thing my brain is bigger than my b...ls. Respect is earned. People, places, wind...
"Una Bomber". Funny thing, that is what went through my mind when I went over to "Kite Strings" and read some posts. Never met the guy. No disrespect intended, but there seem to be a fair amount of bats circling inside that belfry.
...to Kite Strings, Tom? Kite Strings is TOTALLY into people whose brains are bigger than their balls and respect being doled out only to the extent that it's been earned - and mostly to places and wind over people.
Gotta confess that I'm really into bats though and even got sliced up a bit relocating a five plus foot Rat Snake who was after the colony behind one of my front shutters.
Pretty sure she has a new found respect for that place.
I hope she's found a new respect for the importance of...
Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974
"Never take your hands off the bar." - Tom Peghiny
...never taking her hands off the bar - but I really doubt it.
Now maybe a little respect for her "betters"? Hopefully.
I'd be REAL careful about who you refer to as her "betters". When something like that happens it's pretty much the whole culture to blame.
Guest - 2013/03/06 05:46:43 UTC
Tom, you just reinforced my point when you described the peer pressure you faced when you decided not to fly based on your observation of the conditions.
What were your peers seeing for conditions, and what caused them to apply pressure on you? And what does your manhood have to do with your flying?
<She> doesn't have a manhood. Well, that's got to suck. I wonder how that works out when she shows up at launch. What pressures does <she> face at launch at Ellenville?
Beyond the desire to get some airtime - none.
Was she pressured to demonstrate her proficiency in rough air?
No. She was pressured NOT TO FLY.
Maybe an attempt to get the "Tur" sign-off on her rating card?
We haven't heard that it was all that turbulent and we haven't heard that turbulence was a significant factor in this incident.
And we're pretty much totally ignoring the issue that WAS a significant factor in this incident.
I could go on about paragliders and hang gliders riding in the same van. Higher, windier launch vs. mellow air. They give me crap, but it is pretty good natured. The good thing is I don't have to hear any serious crap about almost killing myself if I were to launch into the edge of control and then lose it. Knowledge, judgement, and a smattering of hard earned wisdom goes a long way. Hope we all "get it".
Some won't and don't deserve it. And I'll be MORE than happy to use them for statistics - especially the ones with huge sacks and track records.
A crash that you can walk away from is worth a hundred pieces of advice.
Why? I didn't need to launch unhooked or get locked out and slammed in to understand that I could never assume I was hooked in two seconds prior to launch or that there might be on occasion during which I'd need to BOTH maintain control of the glider and blow tow. And I didn't get shit worth of advice on those issues either.
The problem is, that in this sport you really can't predict if there will be a crash and much less how that crash is going turn out.
It's REALLY hard to go wrong in this sport predicting that there WILL BE a crash and that one WILL turn out very badly - again. And you seldom hafta wait all that long for one to come around.
Suppose she somehow had pulled it off without an incident.
Like maybe flown the glider until she was stopped and safe instead of gearing up for the stunt landing she hand been trained to do every flight since Day One, Flight One?
Then she could of strutted away thinking that she had demonstrated superior piloting skills, not realizing that her judgement to launch could of cost her life.
Bullshit. The only skill she needed was to stay prone and land the glider. And there's not all that much skill in doing it and she'd have known that.
Unfortunately lack of an incident or accident in this sport, can easily be misinterpreted as proof and soundness of the pilots decision to fly.
Or fly pro toad with a bent pin barrel release and Rooney Link in thermal conditions.
Tough call. I like to say it like it is, blunt and direct, which unfortunately puts you at the risk of being labeled an asshole.
Don't worry about being labeled an asshole. I'm labeling you one for not identifying the very obvious issue here.
But at least they'll know unequivocally where you stand.
So do you know unequivocally where you stand with me?
Dennis Cavagnaro - 2013/03/06 12:46:21 UTC
In soaring clubs, the pilot in command...
You mean my Dragonfly driver?
...is always responsible but the CFI or in this case flying site elders...
I like this Certified Flight Instructor thing a lot more than this flying site elders bullshit - especially when dave Broken-Shift-Key hopkins is a self designated site elder.
...can always not authorize use of the airport.
So a fuckin' CFI can shut down an airport that I feel like flying in and/or out of? Can I see that in print somewhere?
Now i know this is a bit extreme for HGing, but its not a bad practice for safety and maybe the club at ellenville should look into the practice.
Doesn't it depend a lot on who the fuck the CFIs and glider pilots are?
That said, everyone should be cautious of early spring air.
And don't forget the early summer type stuff when you've got Sam Dump-Lever Kellner on the rig ready to make a good decision in the interest of your safety.
Dave Hopkins - 2013/03/06 14:05:30 UTC
Thanks.
I have no worries about being labeled an asshole, LOL . I hate 911 calls. I am more gun-ho then most and routinely fly in conditions most would not fly. But I am going XC and at ellenville that is the huge difference. Launch early, get up and go! If I'm going to fly at the ridge I'm very picky about conditions. I have hundreds of hrs at this site flying all afternoon waiting for it to calm in the LZ.
Landing in that valley is death on a strong day. The air aloft will kick your as# but it is a true toilet bowel from launch to the LZ. There are only a few pilots that go XC often. They know what is up. Most locals know when to stay on the ground . They have all been in the air wishing they were on the ground.
We try to lead the h-3s Into the rough stuff slowly. The usual way when they are ready is to let them fly in rough air late in the afternoon so it is calming in the LZ toward sunset. That way they get respect for the roughness but don't have to deal with it in the LZ. This incident was mid day with condition expected to get stronger so there was no safe window .
Ellenville is a great place to fly but you have to understand her moods.
2013/03/06 17:37:29 UTC - 3 thumbs up - gluesniffer
Dennis Cavagnaro - 2013/03/06 15:23:10 UTC
She should know~!
Helix - 2013/03/06 15:39:07 UTC
California
Fledgling query -
When is the ideal time to get upright + transition to downtubes in ground effect -
(1) at the beginning of dipping into ground effect or
(2) after trim has just been reached or
(3) inside of trim, a few moments before flaring?
It depends a lot on the narrowness of the dry riverbed you're landing in and the number of large rocks strewn all over the place.
Realize the answer may be different depending on wind speed/direction + glider performance + pilot proficiency.
H2 flying a Falcon 3 in a coon. Have been getting upright + onto the downtubes at the very start of the DBF at McClure.
EXTREMELY narrow dry riverbed and a HUGE number of large rocks strewn all over the place.
Granted, winds are still relatively kind now.
The higher the winds the higher you wanna rotate to upright. Pretty simple arithmetic.
One elder pilot aptly described the LZ now like flying in a milkshake. Once Spring/Summer hit, the LZ is like flying in a carbonated drink.
Gotta get that landing gear down early. You sure don't wanna come in on your head.
Before soda season hits, aiming to practice staying in my coon (staying prone) + on base bar until the ideal moment (clueless as to when this is)...
Don't worry, Helix - everybody is. It's a lot like the best moment to start assuming you're hooked into your glider. Huge range of opinions on that but you're pretty safe staying over two to five minutes.
...THEN get upright + onto the downtubes.
WHY?!
Kindly advise?
Sorry, I forgot how to do kindly years ago. Lemme see if I can remember how and I'll get back to you.
Thank you in advance for your time ~
Jim Gaar - 2013/03/06 15:55:37 UTC
Never mind. Any hope for kindly thoughts just went down the toilet.
Helix I'm always an advocate for early transition like at 500' AGL.
Hard to go wrong doing the polar opposite of whatever this asshole says.
I realize that decision is also tempered by conditions and experience.
One thing I wish more pilots would do is to PRACTICE transitioning at altitude so they can really get comfortable flying from the downtubes and getting a feel for what the wing does during your transition routine.
Toldyaso.
2013/03/06 16:17:36 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Helix
Three thumbs up your ass, Rodie.
Helix - 2013/03/06 16:21:24 UTC
Ah! Great tip, blindrodie! Will add that to the things-to-practice-at-altitude list...
Weak link break recoveries...
...(along with practicing reaching for parachute handle with both hands).
Reaching for your release with one hand in lockout simulations... Anything to boost your confidence.
Smushing hug to you thru the ether ~
How odd. I'm smushing to rip his heart out and show it to him in person.
Warmly,
Helix
You're off to a great start in this sport, Helix. And keep giving everybody who writes anything those cute little thumbs upses. It really helps to be a friend to every pilot you meet. That way they'll all take flights in your memory and talk about how great it was dying doing something you loved.
gluesniffer - 2013/03/06 17:36:28 UTC
I like to transition on final, especially in rowdy air. The problem I see when people transition, is not when they do it, but how they do it.
What if they just didn't do it at all?
Often times pilots will let the nose come up during transition...
Maybe they should stay prone so it's a lot easier to keep the nose down.
...which usually leads to a change in heading.
Can you cite any recent examples?
The faster we get to the deck, the longer we have to switch hands in ground effect.
Or not.
Helix - 2013/03/06 17:57:41 UTC
Thank you, gluesniffer ~
Will pay attention to pitch on final.
You don't think Ellenville Girl was trying to do that?
Need to incorporate more ground skimming into my final - working on this now.
What's to "work on"? Stay prone, dive the fuckin' glider to the ground, skim it. Tell me why a Day One student shouldn't be able to do that.
One trick I have observed pilots do is putting both hands next to each other in center of base bar right before lifting one hand up to the downtube. This I think prevents an inadvertent turn input during the transition.
Yeah, sure it does.
I got news for ya, Helix. Whatever you can do to keep a glider under control Mother Nature can do something even better to put it out of control. And the more you deviate from optimum control configuration the easier you make her job.
Wishing you a wonderful week filled with only the best Grade A Elmer + rubber cement.
Warmly,
Helix
NMERider - 2013/03/06 18:20:08 UTC
This misconception has resulted in a multitude of broken tubes and bones.
Even if you've read all five thousand pages of Rooney's landing encyclopedia?
The only time it's safe to do a hand transition while in ground skim or ground effect is when the glider is at trim speed and the bar pressure is zero. The problem when landing in high winds and gusty conditions is twofold:
1 - Pilots tend to white knuckle (squeeze too tight) on their control bars and have no idea whether or not there is any bar pressure.
2 - Even if the glider is at trim a gust may upset the glider mid-way through a hand transition.
Which is another way of saying that in gusty, rotory, thermally, unpredictable landing conditions there IS NO safe time to transition.
Since this thread is about a pilot who was attempting to land in strong winds and heavy turbulence...
Quote me something that indicates that was the case.
...I will add that having both hands on the downtubes can greatly reduce the amount of lateral control and pitch authority and can still result in loss of control (and crash) if the gusts and turbulence are too strong for the pilot.
Meaning ANY pilot.
I have landed in winds that were gusting from 15 to 30+ mph in rapid blasts. The only safe solution is to fly the glider right down to the ground and start running and try as hard as possible to keep the nose into the wind while slowing the glider down. The hand transition can been done with both feet on the ground either while still running or after coming to a stop.
Any had transition while there is bar pressure will result in some degree of loss of control. The consequences depend on the altitude and the conditions. The only hand transition that can be done with bar pressure and not lose control is when one hand is in the middle of the control bar.
Assuming you don't get or aren't being trashed by something.
When the other hand is released to grab a downtube the only thing that will shift is the pilot's body, which will twist away from the control bar but the glider will remain on the same trajectory.
Nice to be able to make bulletproof predictions like that.
When it comes time to transition the remaining hand from the control bar to a downtube, there needs to be as little bar pressure as possible. Obviously, the circumstances of the landing may dictate otherwise but that is the general idea.
Where do you expect her to be landing that precludes her from coming in on the wheels?
I have been advocating practicing landing technique at high altitude for many years and it has consistently fallen upon deaf ears on this forum. Many others have been advocating this for decades and also been given short shrift. It's a real shame.
Yeah, I've had the same kind of record trying to get people to:
- do sidewire load tests
- do hook-in checks
- use one and a half G weak links
- use straight pin releases
- use releases not within easy reach
- belly in instead of breaking an arm or two
I have even made videos that demonstrate landing technique practice while in flight that were ignored for the most part. It would be great to reverse this trend and get pilots working on their landing skills during their flights rather than waiting until they have no choice in the matter.
How 'bout just getting them to not think they can stay healthy coming down in narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place?
The easiest technique of all is to spend a reasonable amount of time thermalling while in the landing position every time you fly.
And don't worry about your increased exposure to tumbling because:
- that hardly ever happens, and
- you've got a parachute anyway, right?
This gets you used to making control inputs and dealing with turbulence while in a body posture that you rarely use.
There are some really excellent reasons to rarely use that body posture, Jonathan. Hang gliders and human arms and shoulders aren't really designed to be flying that way.
Hand transitions can be worked on while thermalling as well.
Yeah, that way when things don't go as planned you're a lot less likely to get your freakin' neck broken - the way people do when they're playing for keeps.
This is an old topic but it never gets resolved because their is no pat answer.
I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.
It is technique and requires in-flight training and practice more than it does talking about it.
Landing clinics don't help in real world XC flying. I have had the wind do 180 degree 15 mph switches during my final legs. What landing clinic have you ever attended that's going to help? I saved that one by running like a motherfukker. And BTW - It was on large rocks on an ungroomed surface.
When I come in on many of these flights with sloppy landings, I am often physically and mentally exhausted. That means fatigued to the max. Many times I can't even lift my glider and harness, I'm so pooped.
This is the price of flying real XC. I have seen many a great pilot come in an land on record-setting flights and they literally just fly into the ground and pound in. I kid you not.
None of this is any excuse mind you. There has to be a methodology for preparing to land safely and cleanly while exhausted. This is NOT something I have worked on.
Jim Rooney threw a big tantrum and stopped posting here.
His one-technique-fits-all attitude espoused on the Oz Report Forum has become tiresome to read. It does not work in the fucked-up world of XC landings and weary pilots.
I refuse to come in with both hands on the downtubes ever again. I have had some very powerful thermals and gusts kick off and lost control of the glider due to hands on the downtubes. I prefer both hands on the control bar all the way until trim and ground effect. I have been lifted right off the deck in the desert and carried over 150 yards.
refer both hands on the control bar all the way until trim and ground effect. I have been lifted right off the deck in the desert and carried over 150 yards.
I like what Steve Pearson does when he comes in and may adapt something like that.
Just do what Steve Pearson does - it works, it's easy, and anyone can do it. And if he can't do it he just bellies - in instead of being turned downwind and killed.
With the proliferation of cameras and easy video hosting we should have more pilots posting videos of working on their landing technique at altitude. It's fun and easy plus it makes for safer and more confident pilots.
How very odd. I'm always trying to make pilots safer by making them LESS confident.
2013/03/06 18:40:18 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Red Howard
2013/03/06 23:13:21 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Helix
I like to transition my hands on final close to the deck, but before trim. I like hands to be in position to feel for flare already. It can be done, because I do it just about everytime I fly. I just don't let the bar come out. No misconceptions here. Whether 500 up or two feet, landing approaches should be performed with speed. That means a transition while flying faster than trim. I see newbies all the time pop their nose when transitioning no matter altitude, because they let out a little. Keep it pulled in during transition.
Where are newbies flying which requires foot landings?
Richard Saffold - 2013/03/06 21:50:54 UTC
Santa Barbara
Lessons like these are priceless. She now doubt will think twice about flying in garbage air after some good advice not to.
Get fucked.
- She launched after somebody else did in a lull.
- Hang glider pilots need to be able to handle garbage air reasonably well because that's what we use to keep us up.
- If this had been some now deceased hotshot airjock whom everybody liked such as Zack Marzec everybody would be talking about what a great guy he was and how this shit can happen to anybody. Lay the hell off of her.
She obviously slammed in good but was fine, and probably got really scared prior to impact...
Maybe scared enough to leave the sport.
Ever wonder just how many people...
Gil Dodgen - 1995/01
All of this reminds me of a comment Mike Meier made when he was learning to fly sailplanes. He mentioned how easy it was to land a sailplane (with spoilers for glide-path control and wheels), and then said, "If other aircraft were as difficult to land as hang gliders no one would fly them."
...this moronic hands-on-the-downtubes bullshit has cost us?
These are good things which are hard to forget.
Get fucked. Nobody needs to plow in and get flipped upside down to understand that gliders are best landed upwind.
Pilots can't always have someone more experienced with them when they fly. So I think the fact that she did fly was a better lesson than one learned by herself and possibly getting hurt...
We have no indication that she - or anybody else - learned anything useful from this one.
And hopefully she reads Jonathon's last post on landing in these situations.
She probably will.
NMERider - 2013/03/06 18:20:08 UTC
This is an old topic but it never gets resolved because their is no pat answer.
So how much difference do you think that'll make?
Dave Hopkins - 2013/03/06 23:33:27 UTC
To say there is only one way to handle strong turbulent landing would be wrong. But there are a few define rights and wrongs. A Lot depends on pilot glider and experience.
I don't like different procedures for people of different experience levels. Reminds me too much of...
Davis has been at an around all this plenty long enough to understand what's what and who's who.
...putting new people up on nice safe Rooney Links increasing strength for people who've been at an around all this plenty long enough to understand what's what and who's who.
We should advance into stronger landing conditions slowly.
Why? Because as we become more experienced our reactions get faster and our control authority increases?
Sorry. If the conditions are such that they can't be handled by a sixteen year old solid Hang Two I can't handle them either.
After experiencing a few kickass landing most of us chose to avoid them.
Precisely. So doesn't that pretty much make rubbish of your previous sentence?
Too much luck involved to be able to always control the outcome. Fly long and late . Land in the smooth air at the end of the day.
Precisely. If the fuckin' sixteen year old Hang Two can't handle it then we can't either.
Transitioning without losing the pitch and getting into a turn is the key to keeping the nose into the wind.
Bullshit. The key is not transitioning. And the other key is not being stupid enough to land in some dangerous bullshit field that you can't afford to roll into. And nobody was landing in some dangerous bullshit field that she couldn't afford to roll into on Sunday afternoon.
...keeping Nose into the wind is the object of the final approach. We must be ready to fight with everything we have to make this happen. That means forgetting about the transition and staying in prone until we are in ground effect and at trim.
No shit. But that's pretty fuckin' obviously not how Ellenville Girl was trained, was it? If the training was anything like it is at Lookout she wasn't even allowed to touch the basetube until after she got a couple of mountain flights under her belt.
If the wind is strong just slow down and put our feet down.
Why do we need to put our feet down?
Type of glider makes a big difference on how we handle it . A single surface requires more pull in to maintain ground speed and they handle more predictable. DS or topless...
Name some single surface toplesses.
...are easier to fly fast but don't handle as quickly .
Tradeoffs.
I have been flying topless and rigids for many years. I like to get out of prone above the gradient and then pull in and dive to the ground. I like to keep one hand up one down. This gives me the best of both situations.
Sorry.
- The best configuration for the situation of flying the fuckin' glider is prone with both hands on the basetube.
- The best configuration for the situation of whipstalling the fuckin' glider to a dead stop on one's feet is upright with both hands on the downtubes.
Pick one.
I like having my head up because if I get slammed to the ground I don't want my head down.
Ever notice how about the only people who get their heads slammed into the ground are the ones who like to come in with their heads up because their afraid of getting them slammed into the ground?
It's kinda like swimming. The people people most likely to drown are the ones going upright and trying to keep their heads above water because they're afraid of their heads going underwater and drowning.
I can pull-in for speed with one hand on the basebar.
Not as much as you can with two hands on the basebar and you're not doing your roll authority a lot of good.
Once i reach trim I translate that hand and do what it takes to get everything stopped.
I got news for ya... The glider WILL stop - no matter what you do or don't. In REAL AVIATION people tend to just continue to fly the plane until it feels like stopping.
. It doesn't come natural Practice this up high . Fly with one hand up and one on the base tube, feet out of the harness.
If it doesn't feel natural it's probably not a great idea to do it.
Getting to the ground nose into the wind and wings level is what we must do.
A lot more the latter than the former. There's a lot of shit you can get away with as long as the wings are level.
There could be a big wind switch below the gradient. We may find we are cross wind to a degree.
Like I just said.
don't panic keep the wings level and land running and turning into the wind as we stop.
So I just came back from flying in Austria (awesome place btw). Stark difference I noticed is a large chunk of pilots choose to fly with skids instead of wheels. Conversations I had with pilots they say they actually work better in certain situations as they don't get plugged up like smaller wheels. Even larger heavier Atosses were all flying with skids. I was curious why they consistently chose to land on skids on those expensive machines and they were saying that it's just not worth the risk of a mistimed flare or wing hitting the ground... And those are all carbon frames etc.
Why?
I believe that the young pilot in this situation had plenty of altitude to turn into the wind . She was not prepared for the situation and froze instead of keeping up the fight.
Then why was she signed off as a Three and who signed her?
Even down low it's better to drag a tip and get ground lopped into the wind (I have never done that) then hit going 40 mph.
Not particularly interested in doing either one, thank you very much.
I hate giving this as advice. These type of skills need to be studied , talked about , practiced in gradual increments. Generally after a couple 100 hrs our air senses should get refined enough to fight this kind of landing. Then you learn to avoid them, maybe?
Dave Hopkins - 2013/03/05 13:32:56 UTC
It didn't look bad. She turned into the field on final and was 1/3 of the way up the field when she transitioned. She lost the pitch. The glider did a quick 180 and now she is headed downwind. On launch we watched in horror.
Was it the strong and turbulent conditions that was the problem - or the transition?
Urs - Posted: 2013/03/07 04:15:48 UTC
San Carlos, California
Back on subject, we have a few choices on any day that looks above a pilots skill level:
Be the ass that tells a newer pilot not to fly and why.
Yeah, don't fly because all of your previous landing instruction totally sucked. And she got - it's a pretty good bet - from Greg Black or Paul Voight.
Get your friends involved.
Find out how much you can remember that CPR and first aid class you attended
The time for which could've been astronomically better spent in hook-in check and wheel landing clinics.
Call and tell the family members the horible news
We're really good at that.
Thanks for the reminder Dave.
Thanks for helping retool the training industry to get its damnable upright-only training harnesses out of circulation and start working on teaching people what they need to know to fly safely.
Helix - 2013/03/07 05:14:25 UTC
Thank you so much for taking the time to provide such a thorough response, Jon + Dave.
And good luck on those foot landings, Helix.
NMERider - 2013/03/06 18:20:08 UTC
I have landed in winds that were gusting from 15 to 30+ mph in rapid blasts. The only safe solution is to fly the glider right down to the ground...
Is this what is meant by "parachuting" down to target?
Yeah, Helix. Those are the kinds of conditions in which you really wanna be parachuting down to a TARGET.
Parachuted down to target...
Ya know what my landing "TARGET" is, Helix? Anything that doesn't have a barbed wire fence, tree, or barn within striking distance. If I hit it I've nailed my spot.
What's your target? A traffic cone?
...quite often until elder pilots advised me to insert more ground effect skimming into my final leg.
Does it bother you any that what you're being told by experienced flyers is at odds with the crap you're getting taught by your instructors.
So when winds are high, less ground effect skimming the better?
Keep your speed up and your wings level, get down to the ground where you're not likely to get fucked up too bad if you get fucked up, and keep flying the glider until it stops flying.
I have been advocating practicing landing technique at high altitude for many years and it has consistently fallen upon deaf ears on this forum.
My ears are open.
Only to the voices...
No posts or links about Bob K, Scott C Wise, Tad Eareckson and related people, or their material. ALL SUCH POSTS WILL BE IMMEDIATELY DELETED. These people are poison to this sport and are permanently banned from this site in every possible way imaginable.
...Jack permits you to hear. If I were you I'd be curious to find out what it is he's so afraid of that he won't even allow anybody to discuss me or my material.
Where may I find your videos showing landing technique practice at high altitude?
Wanna see a video of Jonathan crashing after the Marzec Link Mark Knight taught him to use as the focal point of his safe aerotowing system vaporizes with him straight and level ten feet off the cart? Write me.
Dave Hopkins - 2013/03/06 23:33:27 UTC
Fly long and late. Land in the smooth air at the end of the day.
Basically stay aloft until glass off. Not an easy thing to do! But that's another thread -
Even down low it's better to drag a tip and get ground lopped into the wind (I have never done that) then hit going 40 mph.
Can you clarify? Not comprehending this part...
Just as well.
...sounds like a lesser-of-two-evils situation.
Don't get in that situation. There's really no need to and the options for dealing with it really suck.
Dave,
At least you said something, so you did your part.
Yeah, he advised her that the conditions were over her head and - the instant she stopped flying the glider so she could foot land - they were.
I don't think anyone should feel like an ass for politely heeding words of caution.
I'm sorry, that sentence makes no sense whatsoever.
I bet this pilot will listen to you a little closer now.
Yeah, we should be dissuading even more people from flying and telling even fewer people how to do it properly.
Nme, I too would like the link about your landing technique. I was taught a different meathod which has worked for me so far.
And your different meathod for spelling is going along swimmingly too.
No broken downtubes yet except for coming down under canopy, or whacks since the t hill, except for clipping a low sign in a turb slot right on flare. I certainly don't feel I'm cheathing death but I am always interested in improving.
Run spellchecks more often.
NMERider - 2013/03/07 06:33:25 UTC
Hi Helix - Imagine flying your glider right down to ground level at high airspeed...
Kind of a tough assignment for somebody who's spent all of her training going upright and parachuting down to her target traffic cone.
...and then leveling out but instead of slowing down to flare the glider you start to tiptoe along while keeping the glider's nose pointed into the wind until you can safely stop the glider and set it down on the base bar.
A bit like a conventional aircraft landing? Isn't there supposed to be a whipstall in there somewhere to be able to count it as a hang glider landing?
Where may I find your videos showing landing technique practice at high altitude?
I closed the YouTube account where I used to have these. When I get some time, I'll try to do a new edit and post something.
Thanks for your interest!
Jonathan
Dave Hopkins - 2013/03/07 14:07:51 UTC
Helix - 2013/03/07 05:14:25 UTC
So when winds are high, less ground effect skimming the better?
No No! More ground skimming when winds are high! It has been call parachuting down but it is not a voluntary maneuver. We are pulled-in all the way and have no groundspeed because the wind is blowing 30 mph!
. Its very dangerous in high gusty winds to come in with no ground speed.
Not quite as dangerous in high gusty winds as coming in with no airspeed.
The wind gradient is sever and we can fall at the ground from 50' or get hit by crossing gust . This is where fast DS gliders have an advantage. No one should be flying single surface in those conditions.
On strong days it is often easy to stay up till dark. Even if the air is rough its better then rougher air in the LZ. here in the NE we have to deal with the cold so in the winter need to make better decisions about getting in and out of the air.
Can you clarify?
This an act of desperation . If we are going down wind close to the ground any way of getting into the wind is a better option.
So what you're saying is that there's no way of coming out smelling like a rose landing downwind and no way to get killed cartwheeling in an effort to turn back into the wind.
Even cross wind would maybe better.
Yeah. Would MAYBE. And maybe not.
If the ground is hard and smooth landing on the wheels is the best option so keeping wings level is important.
Landing on wheels and keeping wings level are seldom not the best options.
The most important skill to have is to keep thinking and reacting, fighting for control but also fighting to protect your body.
Fighting for control is pretty much ALWAYS the best way to fight to protect your body.
Head and neck are most important.
The more you try to protect your head and neck at the expense of control the more likely you are to break them.
Using the glider as a crumple zone must always be in our mind.
Yeah, that lets you fudge a little on the "never stop flying the plane" rule.
At high speeds impacts letting go of the DTs allows us to hit the ground or other objects at the same speed we are flying and we have very little chance to survive. Getting up and behind the bars turns the glider into our airbag. Always grab one downtube so our head will rotate away from the ground on impact. practice this up high often so it become instinctual. Walking away from a wreaked wing is much preferable to a 911 call. .Like practicing chute deployment, This is all stuff we hope to never use but being prepared can save our life.
Pay careful attention to this, Helix. In all of aviation there are no better people for telling you how to best crash. This helps compensate for the fact that in all of aviation there are no worse people for telling you how best not to crash.
Fred Bickford - 2013/03/07 14:31:28 UTC
When the wind is high velocity I think it is best to transition with plenty of altitude.
I think Ellenville Girl is totally with you on that one - or was at least until Sunday afternoon anyway.
And, Helix, don't worry about this flatly contradicting what you're hearing from Dave:
Dave Hopkins - 2013/03/06 00:03:30 UTC
This was the time to fly it to the ground in prone and transition in ground effect if at all.
...and Jonathan:
NMERider - 2013/03/06 18:20:08 UTC
Since this thread is about a pilot who was attempting to land in strong winds and heavy turbulence I will add that having both hands on the downtubes can greatly reduce the amount of lateral control and pitch authority and can still result in loss of control (and crash) if the gusts and turbulence are too strong for the pilot.
This is hang gliding and there are no hard and fast rules - just opinions. And there are so many of them that it's really easy to shop around and find something that perfectly matches whatever it is you wanna hear. That's the REAL beauty of this sport.
I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.
...keep as much weight as you can in the control frame. I've heard if there is no one around to help, try digging a corner bracket into the ground and pivot crosswind so you don't risk getting flipped while...
...unlocking and...
...unhooking the carabiner.
...from the main and critically important backup loop.
Red Howard - 2013/03/07 14:49:18 UTC
Helix,
No, parachuting is done in little or no wind, and it's usually a bad plan.
But it's so useful for spot landings.
It may be the result of a bad approach, and running out of LZ...
As a consequence of being trained to always aim for a traffic cone in the middle of the field.
...or just fixating on a target spot.
The way she's been conditioned to do since Day One, Flight One.
Rather than hit the fence (or overshooting a target) when you are too high, you just flare, hold the flare like mad, and hope for the best.
As opposed to flying the glider until it stops and actually achieving the best. But where's the challenge, excitement, fun in that?
HGs make lousy parachutes now, but back in the day, you would often see "spot-landing" contests where pilots did it intentionally.
12-02.20 Addendum 1 – Optional Landing Task
At the discretion of the Observer or Instructor and not the pilot, this task may be substituted for the "three spot landings in a row" task. The optional landing task must only be used when the spot landing task is not practical or potentially dangerous.
Gliders back then had a limited parachuting capability.
Gliders back then had a limited gliding capability - and people needed something stupid to do with them to keep from getting bored out of their skulls. Hence this certifiable insane tradition of forcing everybody into this insanely dangerous...
Nothing creates carnage like declaring a spot landing contest.
...and occasionally lethal forty year old spot landing contest to prove that their sacks are big and full enough to merit promotion through the rating system and be permitted to fly high sites without babysitters.
Most newer gliders may have little or none, so "parachuting" may result in a horrendous whack that can be life-threatening.
Or ending.
It IS possible to parachute a HG, depending on your luck, a little wind (and the glider design), but it is not safe.
Unless your Observer or Instructor declares that it is and orders you to do it.
When winds are rough, a shorter skim is a better option.
No thanks, red. There's little time in a landing that I'm happier than when I'm down on the deck in ground effect with a lot of speed and control authority limiting the glider's options for doing anything cute.
You may see pilots who ground skim for fun, but that is only done (safely) in very smooth air, usually at coastal sites.
When winds are high, you can fly at full control, at high airspeeds, with little or no forward speed. A landing then may be a vertical descent, or nearly vertical, with little or no flare. This is called a "helicopter landing" (but the glider is not spinning, and the pilot is in full control).
Not if he's upright with his hands on the downtubes.
Almost anything is better than landing fully downwind, especially in strong winds.
BULL FUCKING SHIT.
People have been crippled and killed coming down straight into the wind and Ellenville Girl just demonstrated that you can be going like a bat out of hell with a strong tailwind, stop upside down, and still be in fine shape for packing up and going back to the top for another shot that afternoon.
There's one helluva lot of shit you can get away with if you're low, level, prone, over a good surface, and equipped with a good pair of wheels.
You may not have the altitude and time to turn into the wind, when too low. Then, you may be able to intentionally drag a wingtip, causing the glider to turn into the wind at the last second. This is just disaster-avoidance...
You sure about that, red? You sure that's not actually a disaster in and of itself?
...not a good thing at any time, but it may indeed be the lesser of two evils.
Bullshit. There's no fucking way in hell I would EVER try a stupid stunt like that.
Glider damage is very likely then...
But don't worry, pilot damage is very UNlikely then.
...but that is still better than a downwind landing. Big wheels may save a downwind landing, but it's not likely.
Yeah Helix, do a hard roll and spin back around on your tip in a situation like that. What've you got to lose? Idiot.
Guest - 2013/03/07 15:37:17 UTC
Ground skimming on final, even with wheels, can be deadly!
Yeah? What's your data to support that statement?
It's a stunt for those who seek attention or need cheap thrills.
I have to say that landing on the wheels is so much fun it's not funny.
Landings aren't about FUN - landings are all about demonstrating sack size.
A light but solid grip is essential to process the feedback.
Bullshit. Use whatever grip you're comfortable with at a thousand feet.
I like to imagine the LZ is covered in tall grass that's hiding football sized rocks.
Imagine? I was under the distinct impression that that's all hang gliders ever landed in.
No running, skimming, or rolling allowed!
Yeah Helix, none of the stuff that makes the landing you're actually doing at the time fifty times as safe and fun. You need to be constantly perfecting your skills for that inevitable day when you'll be coming down in an LZ is covered in tall grass that's hiding football sized rocks - like Ellenville Girl was Sunday afternoon.
Perfecting this...
Yeah Helix... PERFECT that. And do get get back to us when you've got it nailed.
...will pay off big time when you find yourself actually trying to land in tall grass.
Yeah Helix. Unlike other flavors of aviation, it's a dead certainty that you one day WILL find yourself actually trying to land in tall grass. And then there's a three percent chance that the standup no stepper you perfected at the expense of all those whacks, ground loops, broken downtubes, snapped tip wands, dislocated shoulders, and broken arms over the course of the past fifteen years will give you an edge that somebody who just plops in on his belly like always won't have.
3 of my 10 training hill runs on 6.8.12. All FSL and less than 10mph wind with small thermals. Staying out of the middle of the field for the students.....until they left
Landing 1
1:53 - left hand clips wire
2:06 - glider comes down on wheels
Landing 2
3:17 - right hand bounces off wire
3:20 - left hand clips wire
3:27 - glider comes down on wheels
Landing 3
5:05 - left hand clips wire
5:06 - right hand clips wire
5:10 - glider lightly dropped on wheels
practice..practice..practice...
Or...
Christian Thoreson - 2004/10
Thus wheel landings, the safest and easiest way to consistently land a hang glider...
You could just land the glider as easily and safely as possible and...
NMERider - 2012/10/24 21:47:05 UTC
I have to say that landing on the wheels is so much fun it's not funny.
...focus on flying and fun instead.
Lemme tell ya sumpin', Tim...
You can practice that bullshit until hell freezes over and...
