landing

[miguel]

Here is a fellow who obviously has not heard of Tad's proclamation, "Thou shalt not fly the glider from the downtubes."

Blasphemy!!!!!!!

Someone needs to head up to Humbolt and tune this fellow up

http://vimeo.com/63609135

[Tad Eareckson]

I've never issued such a proclamation. And when you're landing at the beach with a groundspeed of around zero miles per hour it doesn't matter much where your hands are.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28622
Dealing with high approach

Sam Benson - 2013/03/16 20:50:27 UTC
Brisbane, Australia

Hi Fellow Pilots,

Pilots? On The Jack Show?

How do you deal with crap approaches?

By:
- eliminating them from my repertoire
- making sure that I'm just about clipping my last downwind obstacle with crisp speed
- making my goal to use as little runway as possible and NEVER a spot in the middle of the field
- keeping my focus on flying rather than configuring for a stupid foot landing

I came into my bomb out yesterday too high and panicked.

Prior to committing to final altitude's a lot easier to kill than acquire.

Did one 360 and another before crashing very badly and busting my left humerus. Out for three months plus, I am guessing.

Good thing you were upright with your hands on the downtubes. If you had stayed prone with your hands on the basetube and bellied in you might have REALLY gotten hurt.

I am not confident of the glide slope...

Neither am I. But I'm super confident in my ability to maneuver down with a lot of speed until I'm just about clipping that last treetop.

...and paid a heavy price.

Yeah. Not because you were in danger of overshooting at the end but because you prioritized stopping on your feet.

And yet I had my best day flying with a low save that I rode back to almost cloud base.

Yeah. And now because of this asshole culture that hardwired you to prioritize stunt landings above everything else - and didn't teach you how to approach - your quality of life will be in the toilet for a while and you've lost opportunities to fly that you'll never get back.

Warning to others and take care.

Wasted. This:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22176
Paragliding Collapses

Jim Rooney - 2011/06/12 13:57:58 UTC

Most common HG injury... spiral fracture of the humerus.

isn't gonna be changing much any time soon.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28622
Dealing with high approach

Jesse Yoder - 2013/03/16 21:34:24 UTC
Arlington, Virginia

Always remember you can sometimes choose to do S-turns instead of 360s if you come in high, depending on the LZ.

Who says you can't do both? Do whatever the hell you feel like to arrive just over top of the last obstruction at the downwind end of the field with speed.

Circle down over the beginning of your downwind leg until you start getting worried. If you come out a little low tighten up your pattern. If you're high, swing wide.

If you're still high when you get to base to final use the extra speed you're carrying to continue on, snap a 180, come back, and roll a ninety onto final.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28622
Dealing with high approach

Dave Hopkins - 2013/03/16 23:45:20 UTC

Sounds like a tight LZ.

We haven't heard that.

I often land in New tight LZs flying XC here on the east coast.

Form a plan up high and execute it. Good plans have options. All LZs have a last obstacle we must get over. Maybe wires, trees, fence, bushes, house, streams, ditches, ect. I make that my main focus.

And why isn't EVERYONE trained to do that - instead of this bullshit about judging angles and focusing on targets in middles of fields?

I want to approach that barrier with diving speed. Enough of a dive that I could hit it if I fully pulled in.

I want enough speed to allow me to go back up - but I don't wanna go totally nuts.

Once cleared I stuff the bar even harder to get it to the ground.

Once I've cleared I back off a some unless the conditions are totally nuts. Flying is supposed to be fun and there's damn near always a fair bit of margin in which to have it once you're in the field.

There I can drag my feet if needed.

If you need to drag your feet you're coming into the wrong field.

Final must have a period wings level gliding, Glider getting to trim before flaring.

Where is it carved in stone that we need to flare? Why can't we just keep flying the fucking glider until it stops - and not risk breaking our arms?

Often the LZ is not large. The best is to have an up slope toward the end. Once I am committed it's that last obstacle that must be cleared to make the landing approach as short as possible.

To make the FINAL as short as possible.

Forget about spots in the field.

Yeah, the spots are just so USHGA can extend your training period and maximize the number of bonks, crashes, injuries, cripplings, and deaths.

I fly rigids and topless so doing turns in the field is a limited option.

Dave Seib:

1:25
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-8oVEo8ybA


seems to do OK turning his topless down into the field.

learn to do long straight finals.

Fuck long straight finals. Take your lead from Dave Seib and learn to do fast low turns.

I Actually find it hard to land in big open areas with no obstacles but I manage.

When I land in big open areas with no obstacles I come in as if they're little closed areas with lotsa obstacles so I don't waste practice opportunities.

Heal well.

What a waste.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28622
Dealing with high approach

Karl Allmendinger - 2013/03/17 01:13:36 UTC
Silicon Valley

If you're 500 feet above an LZ and having to dive and slip to get down to it, it's likely filled with boiling thermal air and it's not a good time to land.

If you're at five hundred feet and thinking about diving to get your glider out of the air you're in the wrong sport.

Slow down, calm down, relax and float around until the thermal blows away and the air in the LZ turns into more laminar steady wind, then land.

Or go back up.

One trick that works for me is the size of the last 360. If I'm high, I make it bigger by extending it upwind, if I'm low I make it tight, right over the LZ.

Jim Gaar - 2013/03/17 05:55:39 UTC

You have wheels if you need to roll it in downwind right?

And perish the thought that he should've deliberately rolled it in upwind and not broken his arm, right Rodie?

Tom Low - 2013/03/17 06:15:36 UTC
Belmont, California

I'll second the suggestion regarding never "forcing" yourself down into an LZ that is creating enough lift to keep you aloft. Better to ride it up and fly yourself out of the situation.

Have you considered the following emergency procedure?

If faced with an overshoot into bad stuff (houses, powerlines, water) and you have enough time to decide your LZ options are too small to get into, consider using your chute (yes... the big one).

While still high enough to take the time, pull the chute from the harness, and hold it BEHIND the basetube. Dive into your LZ and drop the chute when you are less than ten feet above the ground. You should be low enough not to pendulum into the ground. You will just STOP!

If it is windy, and/or there are bad things downwind, this might be a bad idea. Don't expect a graceful landing, but your chances of surviving without injury are better than going in at flying speed.

Nobody's EVER gonna do that.

We need to be focusing more on not getting into idiot situations in which something like that would be a reasonable option, approaches, wheels, and, if necessary, drag chutes.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28622
Dealing with high approach

hnglidr - 2013/03/17 17:37:35 UTC
Idaho - California

Hang out UPWIND of your LZ, this will also give you an idea of the air you will be landing in.

Never hurts to assume the worst anyway.

Scan out your approach and the relationship you need to have to any obstacles.

The relationship you need to have with any obstacles is LOW and FAST.

Take a few slow deep breaths and visualize what you are about to do. Time now for an aircraft approach checking your angles and altitude to extend or shorten a leg based on this info.

Fuck your angles and altitude. Focus on the top of your last obstacle and get to it with speed any way you want.

Arriving to the LZ in the right spot assures a much calmer touchdown.

Fuck the LZ and fuck the right spot even more. Arrive at top of that obstacle and the rest of it takes care of itself. And let the glider decide when to touch down - they're always remarkably calm about it if you just keep them level and let them do their jobs.

Unless you're a motor-head you just get the one shot.

Brian Horgan - 2013/03/17 20:02:48 UTC

pick a landmark at the beginning end of your approach and come in over that landmark at a predetermined altitude.Come in at half speed over the landmark you choose.Half speed will help you elongate or cut short your landing.Once over your land mark at half speed and at the altitude you choose,fixate on the spot you want to land at and let your subconscious do the rest.

1. Pick your last downwind obstruction.
2. Come over it uncomfortably low but fast.
3. Half WHAT speed? VNE? Stall?
4. Yeah, fixate on that spot. Hard to go wrong doing that.
5. Fuck your subconscious.

this is how we get the noobs to not to kill themselves at mcclure.

The job you do with your noobs at McClure sucks. It's comparable to what you do with your keyboard.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28622
Dealing with high approach

cumulus 10 - 2013/03/17 20:26:18 UTC
Lake Worth, Florida

Had to put down in the foothills at Cerro Gordo in Owens Valley in 1977. Spun it in on a wing and trashed my Cumulus 10. Walked away with no injuries and quit for 35 years (went to sailplanes). Have used S turns and never thought about the chute option, sounds good as last resort.

P.S. I land on wheels now - U2 145.

Dave Hopkins - 2013/03/20 16:19:21 UTC

KEEP fLYING THE GLIDER, FIGHTING AND THINKING, PROTECTING OUR BODIES UNTIL WE ARE SAFELY ON THE GROUND.

Not until we are safely on the ground, Dave. At some point we need to rotate upright and start thinking about flare timing and stopping it on our feet.

[miguel]

Fuck your angles and altitude. Focus on the top of your last obstacle and get to it with speed any way you want.

I suppose when you know all and see all, you simply land in a new unknown lz. The rest of us have to do some sort of mental computation to set up an approach to land.
Using angles is about the easiest and most consistent method to set up an approach for a successful landing.

Airspeed is your friend during your approach. That is a given.

this is how we get the noobs to not to kill themselves at mcclure.

The job you do with your noobs at McClure sucks. It's comparable to what you do with your keyboard.

Given that you have never been to McClure and that you have never seen any of Brian's students...



Brian's students all have solid basic skills. They launch with nose down and a hard run. They are aware of other gliders in the air. They land with good airspeed and a crisp flare. They also can fly the glider from the downtubes with adequate control.

When you mix outright lies with your 'facts', it make you look like your bud...

[Tad Eareckson]

I suppose when you know all...

How much is there to know? What is there to know about landing that can't be fully understood by a halfway intelligent junior high school kid?

...and see all...

1. We all see what we can see.
2. We can't see air.
3. Sometimes we can get a pretty good feel for what the air's doing by watching stuff in it or being pushed around by it - but not always.
4. So we need to always gear for the worst the air could be doing in the conditions in which we're coming in.
5. And lotsa times when your hands are on the downtubes you're not anywhere near geared for the worst the air could be doing.

...you simply land in a new unknown lz.

Seldom simply but after getting some bugs worked out at the beginning of my mountain flying career in the summer of 1982 'cause my instruction sucked and with a notable exception resulting from pushing my luck with a mountainside clearcut on 1993/10/03, reasonably successfully.

The rest of us have to do some sort of mental computation to set up an approach to land.

I'm doing mental computations every freakin' second from five hundred feet on down. Approaches and landings always scare the crap out of me.

Using angles is about the easiest and most consistent method to set up an approach for a successful landing.

About? I watched a decade's worth of Ridgely's angles based training and I was WAY less than favorably impressed with what I saw as the results. At least one of their graduates wasn't even able to hit the airport - let alone any reasonable chunk of the designated field - and tried to make do with a cornfield instead. And then you've got your John Simon Ridgely XC record holder / airline pilot / carrier pilot flying into a taxiway sign and breaking stuff coming off his shoulders on both sides.

Airspeed is your friend during your approach. That is a given.

Yeah. But I've seen a lot of assholes going totally nuts with that concept.

Given that you have never been to McClure and that you have never seen any of Brian's students...

1. I've never been to Quest and within twenty seconds of starting to read the first report from Mark Frutiger I knew a thousand times more than any of the assholes who run the place ever will about why Zack Marzec got killed. I can even spell his name a lot better than most of them can.

2. We have YouTube nowadays. It's almost IMPOSSIBLE that I haven't seen any of Brian's students.

3. I don't need to see Brian's students - I've seen Brian.

4. I've also READ Brian.

Brian's students all have solid basic skills.

1. How many of them make anything in the way of the slightest pretense of complying with THIS:

With each flight, demonstrates a method of establishing that the pilot is hooked in just prior to launch.

USHGA regulation? 'Cause if they're not adhering to that one I don't give a rat's ass what else they do in the course of the flight. For the purpose of the exercise they're already dead before they start.

2. How tough is it to acquire solid basic hang glider flying skills - with or without an instructor?

They launch with nose down and a hard run.

1. So do these guys:

1:20
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4JFe7rUCnc

http://vimeo.com/16572582

password - red
2-112
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7600/28811055456_925c8abb66_o.png

-
Hang Gliding Fail
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mX2HNwVr9g
andyh0p - 2011/04/24
dead



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wL00UefQqZA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0lvH-KxGlQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u51qpPLz5U0


2. Name an instructor who advocates launching with nose up and a soft run.

They are aware of other gliders in the air.

Oh good. I so do hate it whenever somebody flies into me.

They land with good airspeed...

I can get on board with that. It's often so bothersome when...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaTu5Y4WBdY

18-3704


...the glider gets a bit slow on final.

...and a crisp flare.

Why? Is that something that students need to be able to do at McClure?

They also can fly the glider from the downtubes with adequate control.

Adequate...

Steve Pearson - 2012/03/28 23:26:05 UTC

I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.

...for what?

When Brian's students go aerotowing what do they use for weak links?

When you mix outright lies with your 'facts'...

This BULLSHIT:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25923
arm chair pilots

Brian Horgan - 2012/04/25 17:18:16 UTC

This site is full of armchair pilots, giving advise.Beware all newcomers!
If you dont see video of the person giving advise,flying,then i would not take advise from that person.I get a kick out of some of you so called pilots who are trying to bolster your egos by giving crappy advise.If you know your shit,then lets see some video,otherwise shut the hell up.

Give us video or your just hot wind blowing.

...blows anything and everything useful he might be getting across totally out of the water. Anybody who "thinks" that way has got no business flying - let alone teaching anybody else to do it.

Don't consider any of the math, science, history, logic, common sense behind what Tad is saying...

Kinsley Sykes - 2011/08/31 11:35:36 UTC

Well actually he didn't. But if you don't want to listen to the folks that actually know what they are talking about, go ahead.
Feel free to go the the tow park that Tad runs...

Just swallow whatever Lauren, Rooney, Davis, Trisa, Ryan feel like spewing out.

If my goal were to kill as many people as possible in this sport I'd definitely have a statement like that somewhere near the top of of my list of strategies.