Releases

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29415
Holy Crap

Lin Lyons - 2013/07/03 17:07:08 UTC

Maybe you'll note that I didn't call anyone else's post rubbish.

Yeah? And you think that's commendable?

There's been no shortage in this thread of total crap written by some Grade A sleazebags, assholes, and morons and the single greatest disservice you can do to this sport and the people in it is to let garbage stand without being called garbage and tolerate scum like Davis and douchebags like Brad without calling them out.

Or in any way belittle other folks.

And I thank you from the bottom of my heart. I really appreciate you not belittling the slimy parasites in these groups whose main hobby is to belittle other folk who know what the fuck they're doing and talking about and are constantly at war fighting to keep people like you from getting snuffed by assholes like Pat, Harold, Peter, Trisa, Davis, Rooney, Matt...

If that's what's standard here, don't be all that surprised if I leave.

Did you read the Mission Statement?

No posts or links about Bob K, Scott C Wise, Tad Eareckson and related people, or their material. ALL SUCH POSTS WILL BE IMMEDIATELY DELETED. These people are poison to this sport and are permanently banned from this site in every possible way imaginable.

Don't portray yourself as being too holy to participate in a forum with ground rules like those.

Here are some more items from the Jack Show Mission Statement:

To actively promote the sport of HANG GLIDING
To actively market and position the sport of HG in the recreational/sporting market place
To actively defend the sport of hang gliding (sites in jeopardy, politics, competing entities...)
To provide a friendly and positive, approachable community for people interested in the sport of HG
To provide a friendly community for Hang Glider pilots to hang out and discuss hang gliding

HangGliding.Org Rules and Policies

Inflammatory posts are not allowed.
Threads that start to spin out of control, will be LOCKED.
When posting, think about non-HG pilots who come to visit the site every day. Please put your best foot forward and showcase the fun adventurous atmosphere we experience every day in the landing zone after a great flight

It's PRECISELY crap like that that set up the environment in which you set out for a fun day of flying and - for the purpose of the exercise - left the field in a body bag.

And if you really give a rat's ass about your fellow flyers you demand safe procedures and standards and their enforcement and you demolish to the best of your abilities the people whose hobby it is to undermine them.

I posted the video for other folks to see and learn from.

What were we supposed to learn?
- If you:
-- use crappy equipment
-- don't connect crappy equipment properly
-- have no launch marshal to check that a system is good to go
-- have an incompetent driver incapable of dumping tension to compensate for:
--- crappy equipment
--- improperly connected crappy equipment
--- absence of a launch marshal
you can get killed?
- Mission Soaring Center is a crappy operation?

We know that already.

I didn't post it on any particular hang gliding forum.

Kite Strings got it first. (Thanks again, Steve.)

The variety of attitudes in responses is ... interesting, to say the least.

Which should tell you that this sport has got some serious problems.

If you've been towing for four years, are you using a cart to launch, or running?

If you've been towing for four seconds in an environment in which a cart can be used, why wouldn't you be using one?

It makes a difference.

Between life and death on a fair number of occasions. If Bille Floyd and Robin Strid had been using carts the former would still have his lower legs and the latter wouldn't be the former.

When running, it helps if the tow is attached at the center of mass, which is about waist level.

The center of mass is a point on the suspension between the pilot and the wing and changes as the pilot pushes and pulls himself and is pulled by a towline.

That's not to say that one cannot adjust, but it just makes sense to attach the bridle at the center of mass.

It just makes sense to slow the glider down and turn away if you're flying downwind and see a mountain coming at you - but there are a lot of things in aviation that are totally counterintuitive.

Once you're prone, then it helps if the attachment is higher up.

So why don't you just start prone so you can handle the most dangerous part of the flight in the safest possible configuration?

Nope, I don't have a video.
I am, however, pretty good at physics.

Really? So what happens if you get blasted up by a:
- surge in tension from the winch
- gust
- thermal
- dust devil
and your weak link or pitch limiter kicks in? Think you're gonna be better off than some dumb pin bender like Zack Marzec who totally sucked at physics?

Concerning "proving your own method of towing" that's not what I was doing.
I was just trying to understand how it's done elsewhere.

Maybe you should've done that before entrusting Mission with your life.

I've never seen anything other than what shows in my video.

And you couldn't have looked at other people's videos?

(I have seen cart launches, but the attachment is the same, other than the bridle goes below the bar when using a cart.)

How much sense does that make when you've got an option like THIS:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3cUiByGMTM


such that tow tension never interferes with/compromises your control? Think you're so good that you'll never get into a situation in which the difference could possibly matter?

I do note that you didn't answer the "Do you fly with that bar through the entire flight"?

Watch the videos.

And does it affect landing at all?

A landing is pretty much a reverse of a launch sequence. If it doesn't affect a launch why would it affect a landing?

Concerning:

Davis Straub - 2013/07/03 16:56:41 UTC

Whenever I've towed from the lower tabs the release has been below the bar.

I think it safe to assume that you've always used a cart.

Nah, he just throws a loop of 130 pound fishing line into his system so that nothing bad can possibly happen.

You really cannot do that when running.

And it's a real bitch to control the glider in the manner it's designed to be when running. So if you don't HAVE TO run then why do it?

The basetube is below your knees, and that would surely tip the glider up unmanageably.

Davis Straub - 2013/07/03 17:08:32 UTC

They do.

Ya know what else can surely tip your glider, Davis?

Dennis Pagen - 2005/01

By the time we gained about sixty feet I could no longer hold the glider centered--I was probably at a twenty-degree bank--so I quickly released before the lockout to the side progressed. The glider instantly whipped to the side in a wingover maneuver.

But let's not worry about that issue. Since YOU'VE never had that problem everybody should be just fine on the crap you sell.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29415
Holy Crap

bisleybob - 2013/07/03 17:11:41 UTC

Davis Straub - 2013/07/03 15:54:15 UTC

I can't think of anyone that would want a bar across their chest.

no you are quite right i'd rather die from lockout as well. perhaps together we can dream up reasons to make the non safer way of towing seem better than a 100% failsafe chest release. how about some of the gold paint may flake off and go in your eye.

Why does there need to be a REASON for Davis to collaborate with anyone to keep things as crappy as possible? It's just something he enjoys doing and is naturally suited for.

damn youe're right that's one anecdote too many better ignore the proof and stick to the old way

A lot of the old ways were a hundred times better than the ones Davis and his buddies have succeeded in insinuating into the mainstream.

bisleybob - 2013/07/03 17:16:43 UTC

sorry for any offence cause it was not intended.

Don't apologize too much. He didn't do his homework and came out with some rubbish comments about some pretty solid equipment and, by extension, the people who developed and are using it.

I am merely frustrated and genuinely care for yours and others safety.

I no longer give too much of a flying fuck about the safety of people in this sport with respect to a lot of issues like this one. I find it counterproductive. I just give a flying fuck about fixing the sport. And if you do that the enhanced safety of the people in it will be an inevitable byproduct.

I have amended y first post and answered your questions

please see my original post above and watch both videos of me cart launching and running.

please feel free to ask any more questions and I will answer them in a nice way.

These:

When standing and running, you want the pressure at your waist.
---
If the pressure is chest high, it makes you want to fall over.
---
I've done considerable waterskiing, and know that with the pressure on your arms, you have to lean quite far back to be able to stand up.
That's not what you want to do when hang gliding.
You want the pressure about your waist so you run standing straight up.
---
Clearly a barrel release can be used anywhere.

aren't questions. They're assumptions presented as facts. And we've got too much of that kinda crap killing people as it is.

thanks for posting and happy flying

And thanks so very much for posting over here, responding to my welcome, and honoring us with your take on the seventy or so posts I've made in response to your situation and the ensuing discussion.

the release is mounted on the chest on tabs sewn into the harness these are in line with the hang strap when it pulls it pulls through you and when you run your hang strap pulls the glider just like a hill launch. its very easy.

Those are facts from someone who's spent more time actually using the equipment than inventing reasons why it won't work.

the trolly or cart is only used in crossed wind or nill wind take offs...

And you're always positive that the wind's gonna stay straight and significant once the tension comes on.

...to save running...

Rolling launches are much easier and safer than running launches. Save running and you save downtubes, arms, and necks. The numbers of foot launches you see behind tugs is approximately zero and the number of blown launches and low level lockouts you see behind tugs is close to that.

...we don't really need it...

I've never really needed to tension my suspension two seconds prior to foot launch and the same holds true for most people who fly hang gliders. But every now and then you'll find someone who probably spent the last three seconds of his life really wishing he had.

...but its a skill we maintain...

Tell me how dolly launching is a SKILL - let alone one anyone needs to MAINTAIN. How do you maintain it? By hanging in your harness prone with your hands on the basetube?

You want a SKILL to practice try foot launched tows or standup landings. And you wanna see where we're fucking the most people up then keep an eye on the people practicing their foot launch tow and standup landing skills.

...the launches in the above videos were a few minutes apart and done just for the sake of filming identical conditions

I'll use the dolly regardless of the conditions, thank you very much. I've had too many surprises dolly launching to make me eager to practice my foot launch skills.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29491
Best Aerotow release system?

Scott Burke - 2013/07/11 00:31:01 UTC
Western Massachusetts

Learning to aerotow and have a few tandem training flights under my belt. In the market for an aerotow release system. Your thoughts and suggestions on the various makers / systems and your reccomendations on the best unit to purchase are much appreciated. Fly a Falcon IV and have been foot launching for one and a half years. Many thanks in advance.

Check out:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=11497
Aerotow release options?
- locked down by Jack four years and six days ago because I said a Rooney Link pop could result in a stall and other people agreed with me
- currently on Page 228 with 19952 hits

Read all the discussion, look at my photographs, talk it over with the most popular guys that Jack allows to post, then go buy some velcroed on bent pin crap with a long track record from Morningside.
---
2013/07/11 01:32:00 UTC

Really botched the post previous to this one. Significant amendment clicked in at:
2013/07/11 01:24:00 UTC

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29491
Best Aerotow release system?

michael170 - 2013/07/11 02:08:00 UTC

The best I've seen is the design engineered by Tad Eareckson.

I wonder how long that will stand before it gets deleted. Or maybe Jack has figured out which way the wind has been blowing and that the cost of enforcing his:

No posts or links about Bob K, Scott C Wise, Tad Eareckson and related people, or their material. ALL SUCH POSTS WILL BE IMMEDIATELY DELETED. These people are poison to this sport and are permanently banned from this site in every possible way imaginable.

rule may be a wee bit higher than he wants to pay.

I'll send you a link via PM if you're interested.

But unless Scott wants to do what Antoine has and build something into his glider as well his best bet by far is:

http://www.nanoavionic.com/
http://www.getoffrelease.com/

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29491
Best Aerotow release system?

Chris McKeon (Roadrunner) - 2013/07/11 02:29:57 UTC
California

Look Ma I am released, and I did not use my hands

Look Ma...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg


I am released by the 130 pound Greenspot pitch and lockout protector and dead because I thought a loop of precision fishing line...

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8394/8696380718_787dbc0005_o.png


...would work just fine as an instant hands free release and was popped off during a three second window when I REALLY needed to stay on.

I Also would like a release system that one could release themselves while on tow when they want to.

Yeah, but it would of necessity be...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/16 05:05:41 UTC

I can tell you what my general ideas and rules are, but you do not need to agree with them nor do you get to dictate anything to me... if I'm not happy, you ain't getting towed by me. Why I'm not happy doesn't matter. It's my call, and if I'm having so much as a bad hair day, then tough. You can go get someone else. I won't be offended. Each tuggie is different, and I've had someone ask me to tow them with some stuff that I wasn't happy with and I told him point blank... go ask the other guy, maybe he'll do it.

I can tell you that for me, you're going to have a hell of a time convincing me to tow you with *anything* home-made.
"But I love my mouth release! It's super-delux-safe"... that's great, but guess what?

If you're within the FAA specs and you're using something manufactured, then you're going to have a far better time convincing me to tow you.
My general rule is "no funky shit". I don't like people reinventing the wheel and I don't like test pilots. Have I towed a few test pilots? Yup. Have I towed them in anything but very controlled conditions? Nope. It's a damn high bar. I've told more to piss off than I've told yes. I'll give you an example... I towed a guy with the early version of the new Lookout release. But the Tad-o-link? Nope.

...homemade funky shit with an extremely short track record and Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney don't like people reinventing the wheel and he don't like test pilots. The only improvements that ever make it into the air are the ones that manage to become established before he can figure out how to torpedo them.

I am saying that it would be great if one could release themselves from the towing force with-out taking their hands off the control bar.

Depends a lot on...



...who's on the glider. Davis is very happy with the way...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24534
It's a wrap

Davis Straub - 2011/07/30 19:51:54 UTC

I'm very happy with the way Quest Air (Bobby Bailey designed) does it now.

...Quest Air (Bobby Bailey designed) does it now and, for him, so am I. (I'd burn my stuff if I thought there was much of a possibility of it falling into his hands.)

Yes, yes this will be a post that I will keep an eye on.

That makes two of us.

It will be fun to see how it evolves.

Using history as a model there will be the usual crap about how:

- a glider won't get out of control in the half second it takes to swat a lever on a downtube

- you should always release before the first sign of trouble instead of staying on and trying to save a bad situation because you can't bear the inconvenience of a relight

- once the glider's locked out a release that doesn't stink on ice is no disadvantage because a locked out glider can't get any more out of control

- you can get off a lot more safely with both hands on the basetube by pitching out abrupty to blow the Rooney Link

- it's physically impossible for a Rooney Link pop to be anything more serious than an inconvenience

- you can't react quickly enough to abort a blown launch so you're better off waiting for your Rooney Link to save you from being dragged after you slam in

- it's impossible to engineer a release that works better than two thirds of the time

- if a release that works better than two thirds of the time COULD be engineered somebody (besides Tad) would have done it already and everyone would be using it already

- Davis Straub and Jim Rooney can put their heads together and figure out at least two ways to sabotage somebody's new design using easily obtainable household tools and chemicals

- an orange hook knife is easier to locate in a lockout emergency but more likely to attract sharks if you go down in the ocean

- if it hadn't been for Peter Birren's Linknife successfully separating the Service Module with a light tug on a lanyard the Appollo 13 astronauts would all have returned to Earth as small ash cloud over the Yucatan Peninsula

Then Jack will lock the thread down because the discussion has degenerated to the extent that outstanding safety conscious establishments like Wallaby, Quest, Lockout, Manquin, Ridgely, and Trisaville are being accused of negligent homicide and the incivility of the exchanges are threatening to destroy the civility which is the very foundation of The Jack Show.

Then Scott will go buy some velcroed on bent pin crap with a long track record from Morningside and there will be a two hundred post thread on the best time to transition to the downtubes during a landing approach.

Good By The BIG Guy

Goodbye, dude. Google:

"aerotow release"

if you wanna get in touch.

Brad Barkley - 2013/07/11 03:44:56

michael170 - 2013/07/11 02:08:00

The best I've seen is the design engineered by Tad Eareckson.

Yes, here is a diagram of it.

Hey Brad...

Really appreciate you taking a break from fucking that pig and contributing something useful to the conversation.

Don't wanna push my luck but maybe you can extend the interruption for an extra twelve seconds so we can hear YOUR recommendation to Scott for the ideal hook knife color.

Or maybe now that Daniel Zink...

Brad Barkley - 89857 - H2 - 2012/03/19 - Daniel Zink

...has left Taberville to spend more time with his family you can ask him to tell us what he REALLY thinks of the New and Improved Lockout Mountain Flight Park Release. (Strangely, I'm not hearing a whole lot of enthusiasm being voiced for that one.)
---
2022/04/04 15:00:00 UTC

The Google search didn't get to Kite Strings until almost the bottom of Page 7. Do:
"hang gliding" "aerotow release"
and both Kite Strings and my Flickr site (https://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/) make it to Page 1.

(Brad Barkley - Fiction Writer - last active on The Jack Show: 2019/02/05 02:39:55 UTC.)

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29491
Best Aerotow release system?

deltaman - 2013/07/11 08:01:08 UTC

Hi,
This primary release is the best you can find in the market. Undoubtedly.
Best ratio: Load/Actuation effort. That means you can release EASILY at ALL loads (and no load). That's not the case of others..

What others? Everything else totally sucks so much that nobody's made a single suggestion. Nobody from Wallaby, Quest, Manquin, Lookout has stepped forward to suggest and stand behind the fine product they've made available.

For remote surface towing you'll always have the Koch two stagers coming out swinging - as we've just seen in the wake of the Lin Lyons incident - and if the question pertained to truck towing you'd get people talking about Mason three-strings.

But the commercially available crap for aerotowing is so unbelievably bad that when a global hang gliding community is asked for opinions nobody has anything positive to say. And if anybody DID have anything positive to say we'd be able to instantly bury him with enough photos, videos, accounts, and fatality reports to reveal him to be a total moron.

That's the downside to having Industry Standard junk with long track records, Mister Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney.

http://www.nanoavionic.com/
http://www.getoffrelease.com/



As secondary releases, prefer straight pin rather than bent ones.

http://ozreport.com/pub/images/P1020740.jpg

But for backup releases go ahead and use bent pins...

- They close a lot easier over thick ropes without weak links

- Since the top end of the bridle is stuck in the primary release up on your keel they'll only have a little over a quarter towline when you're trying to pry them open.

- If you can't pry them open that's OK too 'cause your chances of getting killed by a lockout are a lot lower than the chances of you getting killed by pulling from the keel only as a consequence of a wrapped lower bridle end.

- They have huge track records.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29415
Holy Crap

Davis Straub - 2013/07/03 17:29:43 UTC

Lin Lyons - 2013/07/03 17:07:08 UTC

I think it safe to assume that you've always used a cart.

Well, we know what happens when you assume something, now don't we?

Yeah Davis, we know what happens...

http://ozreport.com/12.081
Weaklinks - the HGFA rules

Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTC

Pilots must use weaklinks provided by the meet organizers and in a manner approved by the meet organizers. All weaklinks will be checked and use of inappropriate weaklinks will require the pilot to go to the end of the launch line to change the weaklink.

Weaklinks will consist of a single loop of Cortland 130 lb Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line and should be placed at one end of a shoulder bridle.

People assume the douchebags running the shows know what the fuck they're doing and talking about and a lot of gliders get crashed and killed.

Lin Lyons - 2013/07/03 17:07:08 UTC

You really cannot do that when running. The basetube is below your knees, and that would surely tip the glider up unmanageably.

How did I manage? Magic, I guess.

No, fer sure. That's how you manage damn near everything.

Say hello to my old buddy, Pat Denevan, for me.

Why am I not the least bit surprised that this guy is an old buddy of yours.

Davis Straub - 2013/07/03 17:37:16 UTC

Some recent tows:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jMGAis8AeM


low and slow with the aerotow release only.

God comes through for me once again!
Six flights, beginner level glider, controlled tension, smooth air, glider level and trim, everything ideal.
- First three flights you get the rope and land with it over the basetube and trailing (à la Shane Smith).
- Fourth and fifth you get to your easily stored Davis Mini Barrel and manage a normal separation on the first effort.
- Sixth you make a stab at it, your hand goes back to the basetube, and you score on your second effort.
- 33 percent incident free towing. Not bad at all, dude.

Lin Lyons - 2013/07/03 17:46:39 UTC

bisleybob - 2013/07/03 17:16:43 UTC

I have amended y first post...

Better. (although you did leave the rubbish comment in)

What? You don't wanna read posts containing accurate information?

I do have a question though.
We usually use an auto-release, that attaches to the 3-ring circus, way out in front, where the release mechanism is.
Do you use, or do your beginners use, an auto release, and how does it work?

Great! If your nose pops up it WILL dump you off tow. And that's ALWAYS a GOOD thing. It's a one hundred percent guarantee that you WILL be returning to the safety of the surface in least amount of time possible. It astounds me that so many operations fail to supplement they're Rooney Links with this extra layer of protection from aviation.

(I might add that I'm just a student - I don't get to decide how things are done.

If you get popped off tow by your auto-release who gets to decide how to best deal with the ensuing whipstall? You or Pat?

(However, I'm sure Pat reads this and even if he doesn't comment, will think about it.))

Pat hasn't thought about a goddam thing in four decades - and he's not about to start now.

The auto-release does occasionally get activated.

Why? The student can't blow himself off in an instant while maintaining max control of the glider with all of his:
- top notch winch drivers to regulate tension
- state-of-the-art equipment
- superb pilot training drills

It would work fine with a barrel release, but probably not with the chest release.

Just throw some 0.75 G fishing line into the system. It works equally well with any release you wanna name. That's why IT - not the release, auto-release, tow driver, or pilot - is the focal point of a safe towing system.

I've looked at the barrel release, several times.
The price seems appropriate for the safety it provides...

...but not for the construction.

Don't you think that term is a bit dignified for the manner in which that piece of shit is slapped together?

Unless there's something I don't understand.

It would be so much easier to catalog the stuff you DO understand.

I also think that $15 for a spectra loop is a bit high.
Particularly if it's simply sewn.

Well, that's SOMETHING.

Another thing that's not obvious to me is the double release.
What are the two releases doing?
Does the tow line come right up to the mechanism?
Is there something farther away that attaches to the tow line?

Don't you pay Pat to teach you this stuff? Ask him to explain the advantages of the "system" he puts you up on over that chest crusher crap all the other remote surface tow operations use.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29491
Best Aerotow release system?

Adi Branch - 2013/07/11 13:03:30 UTC

Are we on about a single or a dual point release?

Depends on how much interest Scott has in being able to hold his nose down in a Zack Marzec scenario.

For a top tow point in a dual bridle setup, the brake lever release is still very good (although some will obviously disagree).

And there will simply be no way of knowing what the opinions of the Mike Haas and Robin Strid would be. And that's really unfortunate because those are the people we should really be listening to.

It can be operated without taking your hand off the bar (if the lever is positioned on the bar itself as opposed to the upright), and isn't affected by tow pressure.

Bullshit.

- Those pieces of junk are plenty iffy enough before you put the extra hard bend in the cable to turn it back to hand position on the basetube.

- How the fuck would anyone who flies under BHPA weak link / pitch and lockout protector regulations know how "PRESSURE" does or doesn't affect release performance?

- Wasn't it a Quallaby Release that Lois Preston was on for her fatal lockout?

For a single chest release (or a backup in the case of the two point bridle system)...

- If the Quallaby Release is such an excellent piece of hardware why do you need a backup.
- Yeah, go ahead and use something on your shoulders as a backup release. Can't see a problem with that.

Koch releases are still very good if you can get them.

They totally suck compared to a lot of stuff anyone who feels like it can make in a short time out of a few bucks (low double digits or less) worth of materials.

Yes, its a big bit of metal hanging on your harness...

That you have absolutely no need for.

...but the engineering on them is excellent...

They're overbuilt.

...and I believe they rarely fail.

You're wrong. They never fail. And, no, it doesn't count when they're improperly configured because anybody can get anything - including the glider itself - to fail if he puts a little effort into it.

Again, the tow pressure on the line seems to make no difference to its operation.

- Again, you UK guys have no fuckin' clue what tow PRESSURE is.
- It's a fucking LEVER system. It may be majorly overkill but there's a direct linear relationship between load and effort.

Davis Straub - 2013/07/11 13:07:29 UTC

http://estore.hanglide.com/category_s/2.htm

Yep...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22540

Unlike deltaman I'm not selling these.

Sorry Davis, I missed the part where deltaman was selling something. Can you provide a link? (And no, thank you very much, I don't mean the fishing line kind - which is all the aerotow release you feel...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Davis Straub - 2013/03/06 18:29:05 UTC

You know, after all this discussion I'm now convinced that it is a very good idea to treat the weaklink as a release, that that is exactly what we do when we have a weaklink on one side of a pro tow bridle. That that is exactly what has happened to me in a number of situations and that the whole business about a weaklink only for the glider not breaking isn't really the case nor a good idea for hang gliding.

I'm happy to have a relatively weak weaklink, and have never had a serious problem with the Greenspot 130, just an inconvenience now and then.

...anybody could possibly need, whether he wants to need it or not.)

Davis Straub - 2013/07/11 13:09:28 UTC

Scott, why don't you go ask Rhett?

Yeah Scott, why don't you go ask Rhett?

http://ozreport.com/3.066
Weaklinks

Davis Straub - 1999/06/06

A few weeks later I was speaking with Rhett Radford at Wallaby Ranch about weaklinks and the issue of more powerful engines, and he felt that stronger weaklinks (unlike those used at Wallaby or Quest) were needed. He suggested between five and ten pounds of additional breaking strength.

Why don't you go ask Rhett why:

- he all the sudden jumped from 130 to 200 pound weak links - skipping over the 135 and 140 pound increments

- he doesn't have a single goddam mention of aerotow releases on his...
http://flymorningside.kittyhawk.com/
...website

- when, in the aftermath of the Zack Marzec fatality, everyone and his fuckin' dog was discussing the new Morningside 200 pound accepted weak link standard there's no mention of that on the Morningside website either

- he, like the rest of the Kitty Hawk / Morningside professional aerotow assholes had not a single comment on the Zack Marzec fatality

- he flies with a built in Schweizer type release system with an actuator on the joystick for HIS end of the string but is more than willing to pull someone on whatever velcroed on bent pin lethal crap he shows up on the other

- he's so perfectly willing to violate FAA aerotowing regulations by putting a three strand tow mast breakaway protector on his bridle and pull tandems

Diev Hart - 2013/07/11 13:38:40 UTC

I would love to hear what Rhett said...

So would I Diev. So would SO MANY people. How very odd that we never seem to hear anything from the most qualified, experienced, gifted, and intelligent of these aerotow professionals and when we are so privileged by the odd individual - Jim Rooney, Steve Kroop, Paul Tjaden, Lauren Tjaden, Mitch Shipley, Brad Gryder, Trisa Tilletti, Mark Knight - we always find that we're being fed total crap.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29491
Best Aerotow release system?

Brad Barkley - 2013/07/11 03:44:56 UTC

2013/07/11 04:10:08 UTC - Sink This! -- michael170
2013/07/11 12:40:02 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Paul Hurless
2013/07/11 13:47:16 UTC - 3 thumbs up - NMERider

Hey Jonathan...

- Really super to see you aligning yourself with the likes of Brad and Paul.

- So did you wanna help Scott with the issue he raised?

- Or do you just get your kicks denigrating work a 130 pound Greenspot pin bender such as yourself is too dull to ever have the slightest ability to appreciate?

- You're flying the exact same aerotow configuration Zack Marzec was on 2013/02/02 at 15:20 local time. I'm gonna swap you in at 15:15 and you're gonna do the same tow. Is there anything you would alter or replace on your configuration that you think might give you a better chance of successfully dealing with the invisible dust devil?

- Let's say that you swapped in a two point bridle and a two G weak link and still tumbled to your death. What would you have left behind that would've made hang gliding any better than it would've been had you never existed. Lotsa cool videos and maybe a drag chute but I'm not coming up with anything else.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29491
Best Aerotow release system?

Andrew Stakhov - 2013/07/11 15:57:24 UTC
Toronto

Been using the one from Lookout mountain (davis link above).

That's NOT a Davis Link. THIS:

Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTC

Pilots must use weaklinks provided by the meet organizers and in a manner approved by the meet organizers. All weaklinks will be checked and use of inappropriate weaklinks will require the pilot to go to the end of the launch line to change the weaklink.

Weaklinks will consist of a single loop of Cortland 130 lb Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line and should be placed at one end of a shoulder bridle.

Davis Straub - 2011/08/28 15:26:28 UTC

Then again, Russell Brown had us double up behind him after six breaks in a row at Zapata. We couldn't figure out why we had so many breaks so quickly. Maybe just coincidence.

is a Davis Link.

No complaints so far, never had any issues even under lockout scenarios.

Oh. Even under the extraordinarily high tow pressures necessary to precipitate a lockout. That's good to know. (And it's really amazing that you were able to achieve the extraordinarily high tow pressures necessary to precipitate a lockout using a weak link designed to prevent you from achieving the extraordinarily high tow pressures necessary to precipitate a lockout.)

I heard of others having issues with this release, but I think at least one of those incidents was traced to rusted cable.

Well then, you should just ignore all the other incidents and assume that you're gonna be just fine when the shit hits the fan - as long as you have a backup release, appropriate weak link, and hook knife of course.

Hey Andrew...

- Here's what it says in the victim's manual for your New and Improved Lockout Mountain Flight Park Release:

Matt Taber - 2009/07/12

The new GT aerotow release, new as of July 11th 2009, is designed to be used with a V bridle and a 130-pound green stripe Dacron tournament fishing line weak link. At this time it is not recommended to use this release with a higher value weak link. We are confident that with an ultimate load of 130 pounds at the release point, the new GT aerotow release works better than all cable releases that we have experience with.

- Here's the weak link Zack Marzec was using just before he popped off and sunk out into the invisible dust devil lurking below:

Paul Tjaden - 2013/02/07

A standard 130 pound test weak link was being used.

Here are a couple of assessments of the relevance of the Davis Link in the fatality:

Davis Straub - 2013/02/13 15:45:22 UTC

We have no agreement that a stronger weaklink would make it safer.

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/07 18:24:58 UTC

You're the one advocating change here, not me.
I'm fine.

These are only questions if you're advocating change. Which I'm not. You are.

You're the one speculating on Zack's death... not me.
Hell, you've even already come to your conclusions... you've made up your mind and you "know" what happened and what to do about.
It's disgusting and you need to stop.
You weren't there. You don't know.
All you have is the tug pilot report, who himself says he doesn't know... and HE WAS THERE... and he doesn't know.

Go back to Tad's hole in the ground.
While you're there, ask him why he was banned from every east coast flying site.

- Here's the range of weak link material a couple of the people who've made major contributions to the perfection of aerotowing started testing when they suddenly and selflessly became interested in perfecting aerotowing even more:

Davis Straub - 2013/07/04 13:47:57 UTC

Mark Knight and Jim Rooney put the loops through the wringer

Weak Link loops breaking test - April 2013

330 - White with Black striker 300 lb.
308 - White with Red Striker 250 lb.
253 - White with Purple Striker 200lb 1knot
255 - White with Purple Striker 200lb 2knots

220 - Black Dacron fishing line 160 lb.
286 - 205 Leach Line
154 - Courtland Greenspot 130 lb. (From Quest Air Florida)

(Note that their 130 pound Greenspot weak link is fourteen pounds more consistent than the 130 pound Greenspot weak link that the New and Improved Lockout Mountain Flight Park Release is designed to be used with at this time.)

Here's the weak link that Morningside decided they were happy with about a year and a half ago:

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/04 19:31:36 UTC

Morningside decided that they were happy with 200lb weaklink.

Here's the weak link that Quest decided they were happy with a couple of hours after Zack Marzec was scraped off of their runway:

Mark Dowsett - 2013/07/04 21:41:52 UTC

I left Quest with some of the towmeup.com material when I was there in April and they were going to do testing as well. I'm not sure what they are now using.

Matt said that:

At this time it is not recommended to use this release with a higher value weak link.

but that was four years ago tomorrow. It might be a good idea to wire Matt and ask him:

- what higher value weak link it is not recommended to use with this release at THIS time, as surely over the span of four years your release has increased its load capacity (similar to the manner in which Davis Links increase their load capacities in turbulence and decrease them in lockout situations)

- why he uses spinnaker shackle based brake lever boosted releases on his tandems

- how often they encounter invisible dust devils leaving their field and whether he recommends using:
-- a heavier weak link to ride them out
-- a less consistent weak link to keep the gliders from getting into too much trouble
-- no weak link because he values convenience over the increased safety of the towing operation

- how Daniel Zink is enjoying the more time he's now able to spend with his family

P.S. Hey Matt...

At this time it is not recommended to use this release with a higher value weak link.

Don't you actually mean:

"At this time it is not recommended to use this release with a LOWER value weak link."?

It seems to me that the flimsier the fishing line the higher value it is in increasing the safety of the towing operation - and vice versa.

- that a weak link more consistent than the tug's weak link or tow mast breakaway - whichever comes first - would be of no value whatsoever to anyone

- while a weak link that blows every other tow - like the standard aerotow weak link, worked out over quite literally hundreds of thousands of tows worth of trail and error - would be of EXTREMELY high value, especially to the tug and the towing operation

Why else would we all be using weak links that blow every other tow and trash downtubes left and right?