Weak links

[Zack C]

REALLY? Can you cite a real life example of something like that happening?

I'm stopping short of going that far because people seem to get really touchy if you suggest anything about the recently deceased...

As sad as this may be, I think the situation would be different if the incident happened to someone no one knew or liked.

The glider's in a climbing lockout - in which case the pop and recovery altitudes could be higher for some of that other bullshit I've seen out there.

Very true, but one could argue that the glider could also be descending in the lockout (though that seems harder to imagine). I figured it was best to keep this simple.

Be gentle with him. His exposure to Hewett Theory has been a lot longer than most of the rest of us have endured.

Too late...looks like I blew it.

Zack

[miguel]

You all would have better luck trying to spin gold from straw.

[Tad Eareckson]

I'm stopping short of going that far because people seem to get really touchy if you suggest anything about the recently deceased...

I know. I'm just really enjoying watching all these assholes in the living room crawling between legs, ducking under tusks, and pushing trunks aside in really heroic efforts to not see and acknowledge the herd of Woolly Mammoths.

As sad as this may be, I think the situation would be different if the incident happened to someone no one knew or liked.

Yeah.

This one's fuckin' GOLDEN. The only way it could have been any better would've been if there were a bunch of cameras running. But even then we'd probably never see anything due to the touching sensitivity this cult always has about the feelings of friends, family, loved ones - and the total callousness for the thousands of similar accidents waiting to happen.

I figured it was best to keep this simple.

By all means. We're dealing with a flight park that's teaching people that when a weak link senses another one on the other bridle end its emboldened enough to double its strength.

Too late...looks like I blew it.

No you didn't. Fuck him. This war is gonna be a lot easier to win without a bunch of semi nut cases confusing everybody with a mix of lucid statements and total insanity. We need to concentrate our fire on Rooney right now 'cause even some of the Davis Show dregs are starting to see through him. Notice that this is probably the longest stretch he's ever gone without getting any covering fire from any Kinsley Sykes types.

The bad guys have got their backs to the sea and they all know it. I'm daring to hope that there will be a lot of fat and happy sharks before too much longer.

Don't take any prisoners.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/15 06:48:18 UTC

Due to the rough conditions weak links were breaking just about every other tow and the two tugs worked hard to eventually get everyone off the ground successfully.

AP flies in OZ
I have no clue what they're using over there.

Really Jim?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 02:44:10 UTC

I find no disagreement in the professional community as to such.

I was under the impression the there was no disagreement in the professional community as to such. So did you just mean the US professional community in which...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question

Jim Rooney - 2008/11/24 05:18:15 UTC

BTW, if you think I'm just spouting theory here, I've personally refused to tow a flight park owner over this very issue. I didn't want to clash, but I wasn't towing him. Yup, he wanted to tow with a doubled up weaklink. He eventually towed (behind me) with a single and sorry to disappoint any drama mongers, we're still friends. And lone gun crazy Rooney? Ten other tow pilots turned him down that day for the same reason.

...there's no disagreement (tolerated) in the professional community as to such? While the professional communities of other countries are all unanimously agreed around other standards - no doubt due to the peculiarities of their particular Coriolis Effect patterns? The Aussies are using...

http://ozreport.com/12.081
Weaklinks - the HGFA rules

Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTC

At the 2008 Forbes Flatlands Greenspot for the first time was used as the standard weaklink material (thanks in large part to the efforts of Bobby Bailey). We applaud these efforts to improve the safety of aerotowing by using a better weaklink material.

...even lighter/safer weak links than the US standard?

Actually, it sounds to me like...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 14:04:52 UTC

We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year.

...they may be using HEAVIER / MORE DANGEROUS weak links than ours. They're one for two, we're zero for six after all.

And that WOULD explain...

http://ozreport.com/13.003
Forbes, day one, task one

Davis Straub - 2009/01/03 20:50:24 UTC
Forbes Airport, New South Wales

Steve Elliot came off the cart crooked and things went from bad to worse as he augured in. He was helicoptered to Orange and eventually to Sydney where the prognosis is not good. I'll update as I find out more.

...why the safety of that towing operation wasn't increased sufficiently.

When you were...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 09:25:57 UTC

Only later, when we're visiting them in the hospital can they begin to hear what we've told them all along.

...visiting him in the hospital in his final hours...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 07:51:12 UTC

Ok, here's something to chew on, while we're on the topic.
It's not going to taste nice, but it's the god's honest truth.

...did he accept God's honest truth? Or did he go to his grave unrepentant and damned for all eternity?

If by 'works' you mean protects pilots from unusual attitudes...

Um... where's the problem?
Oh right... you're preaching the sermon of the "purpose of a weaklink". Too bad reality is not so black and white.

Right Zack. We're talking hang gliding, aerotowing, weak links. There's absolutely NOTHING one can say too certifiably insane to be able to get away with it.

I guess we can expect Davis will scare himself eventually.

Naw.
Davis has been at an around all this plenty long enough to understand what's what and who's who.

Yep.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18695
How could this accident happen?

Davis Straub - 2010/01/28 06:10:17 UTC

I have tried to launch unhooked on aerotow and scooter tow.

http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident2.jpg
http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident3.jpg


So what you're saying is that if you know what's what and who's who you can apply for a permit to up your weak link from 130 to 200 because the stronger weak link will realize that you're somebody very important and will blow in a lockout at the same tension a 130 would for any of the rabble?

I'll put money that he's using that new orange stuff like what they've got up at Morningside.
His are "sewn" right... ya know why?
Cuz the orange chord ones will slip under zero load if they're not sewn or glued.

And this is pertinent to the discussion how?

You can scare yourself pretty easily waiting for a 130 lb link to break and have no issues waiting for a 'strong' one to break.

So what?
You can scare yourself in a variety of ways.

You know what scares the fuck out of me? Getting behind some incompetent total fucking moron...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 13:47:23 UTC

Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 19:49:30 UTC

It's more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.

...of a tug driver who's totally cool with violating the shit out of FAA aerotowing safety regulations...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question

Jim Rooney - 2008/11/20 22:25:38 UTC

Something to bear in mind... the tug's weaklink is three strand.
For clarity... A normal single loop weaklink would be considered two. A tandem double loop is considered four.
In the tandem setup, the "weaklink" in the system is at the tug end, not the glider.

...and is neutralizing my midrange weak link with the bullshit fishing line he keeps on his end to protect his idiot fucking tow mast breakaway.

In your book however, anything less than the cable strength of the glider is OK?

I'll take a ten G weak link any day of the week before I go up on that bullshit that got your asshole buddy killed a couple weeks ago.

Yeah, sorry... nope. Not behind me at least... go be a test pilot behind someone else.

That's fine, Jim. I get WAY MORE enjoyment watching you guys improving the gene pool at each other's expense than I ever did going up behind a Dragonfly wondering at every second of the tow whether or not I was gonna be dumped and what state I'd be in WHEN it happened.

P.S. Speaking of test pilots...

The Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) is urgently pushing for new hang-gliding industry standards after learning a hang-gliding pilot who suffered serious injuries in a crash three weeks ago had not clipped himself on to the glider.

Extreme Air tandem gliding pilot James (Jim) Rooney safely clipped his passenger into the glider before departing from the Coronet Peak launch site, near Queenstown, CAA sports and recreation manager Rex Kenny said yesterday.

In a video, he was seen to hold on to the glider for about fifty meters before hitting power lines.

Rooney and the passenger fell about fifteen meters to the ground.

How are you coming on those experiments you were doing for flying tandem gliders while dangling from the basetube?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Bill Cummings - 2013/02/15 19:59:49 UTC

ZC, You're right! I'm wrong! Your mind is made up! Good luck with your strong weak links! LATERS!

Get fucked, Bill.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Gaar - 2013/02/15 21:27:45 UTC

Sorry to be slow answering...

Slow as in taking a bit to get back with the answer? Or slow as in totally clueless?

What do all these listed parts of the tow operation have to do with why 130# greenspot is the best standard...

Because it works with all the variations found at a modern towpark...

- Works to WHAT?

- Do please itemize the differences between the crap I see at a modern towpark - like the crap that killed Zack two weeks ago - and the crap I'd see at a flight park twenty years ago before everybody finished perfecting everything.

More pro toads? That's about the only safety improvement I've seen.

And once the Flight Park Mafia franchises get everybody acclimated to shit releases and the mindset that they can't be used to release the glider from tow they introduce even shittier releases, tell everybody they're the greatest thing since sliced bread, sell a few thousand of them, and get people acclimated to those so they won't balk when next year's coat hanger and duct tape prototype first appears.

Then they change equipment REQUIREMENTS to equipment GUIDELINES.

Then they eliminate them from the SOPs altogether.

...or certainly any one where I would be responsible for safe launches.

You wouldn't know what a safe launch is if it bit you in the ass. Just 'cause you can keep getting away with stupid shit for thousands upon thousands of flights doesn't mean they're safe.

I came up in the early stages of ATing. I was a Mentor...

And I have no doubt whatsoever that your little pin benders are every bit as safe and competent as Zack Marzec's are.

...and a test pilot.

Test pilots are douchebags. Anybody too stupid to be able to predict on the ground what any piece of hardware's gonna do in the air deserves every nasty surprise he gets.

So what amazing discoveries did you make in the course of your test pilot career that benefited this sport so dramatically?

I'm NOT a tug pilot but all the tug pilots that worked with me (3) were on board with the current procedures described in this thread.

Yeah. I'd have been...

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/24 16:26:09 UTC

Welcome to towing.
We've been doing this a long time and are quite familiar and comfortable with our processes.

...totally stunned if they weren't - especially the kind of people who could stand being within a couple of miles of you for more than five minutes or so without breaking out in a rash.

But the thing is - ASSHOLE - that never in the history of human civilization has any technological progress been achieved by the douchebags who were on board with current procedures - ESPECIALLY those described in this thread. It's achieved by people who look at current procedures and say, "What total fucking moron concocted this bent pin piece of shit? I could've done the job five time better when I was six!"

And each assessment always worked out to one size fits all?

Yes, for solo towing, every single one worked, hundreds of times!

Yep. That's the beauty of 130 pound Greenspot it ALWAYS WORKS. It ALWAYS holds below its load capacity and blows the instant its load capacity is exceeded. Really amazing stuff. AND you can use it to catch fish!

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Zack C - 2013/02/15 21:46:43 UTC

I have no clue what they're using over there.

Perhaps Davis does. That was at Gulgong. I know they've been introduced to Greenspot...

http://ozreport.com/12.081
Weaklinks - the HGFA rules

Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTC

At the 2008 Forbes Flatlands Greenspot for the first time was used as the standard weaklink material (thanks in large part to the efforts of Bobby Bailey).

I figured everyone's using it since "this stuff's been worked on and worked over for years and thousands upon thousands of tows." But it's not like it would be a big surprise if it was confirmed as Greenspot...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 14:04:52 UTC

We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year.

Um... where's the problem...

I'm just trying to determine what you think 130 lb weak links work well to do. I still haven't gotten an answer.

Davis has been at an around all this plenty long enough to understand what's what and who's who.

Are you saying it's not the strength of stronger weak links that's dangerous but the fact that their behavior is untested?

So what?
You can scare yourself in a variety of ways.

My point is that someone can be scared waiting for a weak link to break no matter how weak it is. If someone is scared waiting for a 'strong' one to break, you cannot make the assumption that they wouldn't have been scared in the same situation with a weaker link.

In your book however, anything less than the cable strength of the glider is OK?

Nope. Federal regulations mandate a maximum weak link breaking tension that is well below what would break our wings, and I'm quite fine with that.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/07/22 22:30:28 UTC

Hahahahahahahahaha
Oh that's just rich!
Riiiiiight... it's my attention span at issue here....
and I'm the one that's arrogant!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA

No, I'm not being nice. No, I do not feel the need to be nice. You're trying to convince people to be less safe. I don't want to be on the other end of the rope when someone listening to this drivel smashes in.

I've heard it a million times before from comp pilots insisting on towing with even doubled up weaklinks (some want no weaklink). I tell them the same thing I'm telling you... suck it up. You're not the only one on the line. I didn't ask to be a test pilot. I can live with your inconvenience.

Please tell me again what's wrong with the wheel? Why you keep trying to reinvent it?

Yes, please fall back on the "I'm just saying they could be stronger" bull when you've made it quite clear that anything lower than cable (1200lb) is acceptable.

The simple fact is that you're not improving the system.
You're trying to make it more convenient and trying to convince yourself that you should be towing with a stronger weaklink.

Enjoy your delusion.
Jim

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Zack C - 2013/02/15 21:49:19 UTC

You have more faith in current aerotow instruction than I.

By the way, this is in USHPA's official flight training manual:

Lockouts can be prevented by using good technique, light tow pressures, and appropriately-sized weak links--if you get too far off heading, and a lockout begins to develop, a proper weak link will break and release you from tow.

William Olive - 2013/02/15 22:13:01 UTC

The manual is wrong and needs to be re-written to remove any reference to weaklinks preventing lockouts.

What, and admit that for a third of a century the industry has been totally incompetent, that the foundation of its safe towing theory is a load of crap, and that because of this untold thousands of trusting participants have been needlessly crashed, injured, crippled, killed?

It has been said many times, and I'll say it again, you can suffer a lockout all the way to the ground and never exceed a 1G load or break the weaklink.

So then why does the HGFA say:

Recommended breaking load of a weak link is 1g. - i.e. the combined weight of pilot, harness and glider (dependent on pilot weight - usually approximately 90 to 100 kg for solo operations; or approximately 175 kg for tandem operations).

What's the significance of one G? Who recommended it and why? What does it do for us that a mid FAA range weak link - like sailplane manufacturers recommend - doesn't?

What the manual should say is "--if you get too far off heading and a lockout begins to develop, YOU should release from the tow"

Yeah. Otherwise people wouldn't know to do that. They'd try to save a bad situation instead of pinning off early because getting back in line, waiting for a cart, moving out to position is such a hassle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27yFcEMpfMk

Bill Bryden - 2000/02

Dennis Pagen informed me several years ago about an aerotow lockout that he experienced. One moment he was correcting a bit of alignment with the tug and the next moment he was nearly upside down. He was stunned at the rapidity. I have heard similar stories from two other aerotow pilots.

Dennis Pagen - 2005/01

Soon after lift-off the trike tug and I were hit by the mother of all thermals. Since I was much lighter, I rocketed up well above the tug, while the very experienced tug pilot, Neal Harris, said he was also lifted more than he had ever been in his heavy trike. I pulled in all the way, but could see that I wasn't going to come down unless something changed.

I hung on and resisted the tendency to roll to the side with as strong a roll input as I could, given that the bar was at my knees. I didn't want to release, because I was so close to the ground and I knew that the glider would be in a compromised attitude. In addition, there were hangars and trees on the left, which is the way the glider was tending.

By the time we gained about sixty feet I could no longer hold the glider centered - I was probably at a twenty degree bank - so I quickly released before the lockout to the side progressed.

The glider instantly whipped to the side in a wingover maneuver.

You'd think more people would know to do that without having to be told. I mean... When a kid on a bicycle starts losing control and running off the road he just squeezes the brake levers clamped to his handlebars at grip position. I wonder why the big problem in making the translation.

What are your thoughts on this, Billo?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Zack C - 2013/02/15 23:01:21 UTC

The manual is wrong and needs to be re-written to remove any reference to weaklinks preventing lockouts.

Yes. And as pointed out previously, Wallaby's website and Towing Aloft make similar statements.

Big surprise...

Bill Bryden - Seymour, Indiana

A manual of this scope entails gathering information from many sources. No single individual can posses all the necessary experience covering all the facets of towing. Therefore we are greatly indebted to those developers, instructors, manufacturers and experimenters who have brought us modern towing and have shared their insights. We especially thank Gerard Thevenot for teaching us to aerotow, Wallaby Ranch for refining our skills and Raven Hang Gliding for their helpful input. We also owe a debt of gratitude to Wayne Sayer, the Wallaby Ranch, and Raven Hang Gliding for proofreading the manuscript.

Individuals such as Donnell Hewett, Dave Broyles, Lars Linde, Mike Robertson, Brad Kushner, Malcolm Jones, David Glover, Greg McNamee, Jan Alda, Alan Chuculate and Bill Moyes have also offered specific information either through their writing or by personal communication. Finally we wish to thank individuals and operations who have generously contributed photos to our project. John Heiney, Brad Kushner, Miami Hang Gliding, Kitty Hawk Kites, Moyes Delta Gliders and Wallaby Ranch especially provided a multitude of great images. Their work has enhanced this book tremendously.

Seeing as how the crap they published is just a giant infomercial for all these motherfuckers whose businesses are to no small part dependent upon conning the public into the delusion that they'll all be totally safe as long as that chintzy piece of fishing line is somewhere in their systems.

If this is what the written literature says, why would we expect instructors (at least those in the US) to be saying anything different?

Especially those who want to be friends with every pilot they meet and not rock any boats.

I learned to fly at Lookout.

And then we had to deprogram you and rebuild you as a pilot.

I have no recollection of an instructor telling me what weak links were for, but I do know I emerged from my training believing they provided lockout protection, and I know very experienced pilots that think this way.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up

Jim Rooney - 2009/11/03 06:16:56 UTC

God I love the ignore list

Tad loves to have things both ways.
First weaklinks are too weak, so we MUST use stronger ones. Not doing so is reckless and dangerous.
Then they're too strong.

I have no time for such circular logic.
I had it with that crap years ago.

As for being in a situation where you can't or don't want to let go, Ryan's got the right idea. They're called "weak" links for a reason. Overload that puppy and you bet your ass it's going to break.

You can tell me till you're blue in the face about situations where it theoretically won't let go or you can drone on and on about how "weaklinks only protect the glider" (which is BS btw)... and I can tell ya... I could give a crap, cuz just pitch out abruptly and that little piece of string doesn't have a chance in hell. Take your theory and shove it... I'm saving my a$$.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Miguel - 2013/02/15 23:32:31 UTC

Jim

You are the tug pilot of the day.

He doesn't stand any more a snowball's chance in hell of ever becoming a pilot than Zack Marzec does.

Two pilots show up. The big guy in the sky. He is 250 lbs of muscle and flying the big Predator. The big guy is an ex-professional boxer.

The other pilot is Dougie on his Sport. Dougie weighs about 135 lbs. Dougie goes first. No problems and he is skying out.

The big guy goes. His weak link breaks. He takes another tow with the same result.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Davis Straub - 2011/08/28 15:26:28 UTC

We couldn't figure out why we had so many breaks so quickly. Maybe just coincidence

Dougie is in the air cackling like only Dougie can. The big guy is pissed. He tries again and the weak link breaks again. Angrily, the big guy stomps up to the tow plane. He is hot and demands a stronger weak link.

Of course if the big guy DOES get an appropriate weak link he could wind up even more fucked because Jimmy's triple strander will leave the big guy with 250 feet of Spectra draped over his basetube and trailing. And he won't be able to dump it any time soon because...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22308
Better mouse trap(release)?

Jim Rooney - 2010/12/16 18:47:05 UTC

A few years ago, I started refusing to tow people with home made gear.
I like the idea of improving gear, but the lack of appreciation for the world they were stepping into didn't sit with me.
For example... flying with the new gear in mid day conditions?
Are you kidding me????

...Jimmy only allows people to tow with the crap he and his asshole cronies sell.

Are you going to give him a stronger link?

Sure. Why not? It won't do him that much good anyway.

AND...

If he DOES get fucked over by the front end weak link...

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 09:25:57 UTC

Oh how many times I have to hear this stuff.
I've had these exact same arguments for years and years and years.
Nothing about them changes except the new faces spouting them.

It's the same as arguing with the rookie suffering from intermediate syndrome.
They've already made up their mind and only hear that which supports their opinion.

Only later, when we're visiting them in the hospital can they begin to hear what we've told them all along.

...Jimmy can visit him in the hospital and force him to keep listening to what he's told them all along.

...or risk an ass whupping?

I'm really liking this approach. Wish I had thought about something like this before I submitted my SOPs revision proposal.

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/16 01:35:20 UTC

I'll write more when I've got more time and a keyboard...

Any chance you'll give any straight answers to any of Zack's questions? Just kidding.

But I'll tell you this... Don't ever stomp over to your tug pilot and "angrily" anything.
That's not going to work out well for you.

Try bringing an FAA enforcement officer with you and see how that goes. Because there is NOBODY who weighs 250 pounds before he starts putting on a harness, parachute, and helmet who's flying a glider for whom a Rooney Link is legal.