You are NEVER hooked in.

General discussion about the sport of hang gliding
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: You are NEVER hooked in.

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3UbztgTtsc
I Launched Without Buckling into my Harness - a hang gliding film by Greg Porter
Greg Porter - 2013/10/02

Final Checklist
Good description.
Taped with clear packing tape to a plastic card that is permanently dangling from the glider's nose.
Except at the only time the critical elements on it matter. Then it's neatly stowed inside the nose cone and totally invisible - not that it would matter in the least if it weren't.
Just before launching it is velcroed inside the nose cone
BULL FUCKING SHIT. It's velcroed inside the nose cone...
So once I'm done with preflighting and I get in my harness then this is the final checklist - the one that I go through just before I walk up on the ramp to launch.
...just before you walk up on the ramp to launch - confident that you're good to go. And that's about the single most dangerous thing you can do in this sport.
Preflight Completed
Sure. If you say so. But if you look at these guys:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiSd3KgzAu4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxrv7Wc5doU

Image

you'll notice that their preflights aren't completed until they're at launch position and usually within seconds of getting airborne. And they tend not to be very vulnerable to distractions and half-assed checks of critical issues at that point.
Vario ON
- Altitude correct
Hook in and lock
O2 cannula in place
Hang Check
- Leg Loop Buckles
- Chest buckled
- Upper zipper started
- Chin Strap
Radio Check
Sunglasses and Gloves
VG at 1/2 (Tow) or OFF
Pip Pins seated
Wing Camera ON
OK, now let's do that list again, remove the trivial crap that will do nothing but greatly increase your chances of launching unsecured.
Hook in
Leg Loop Buckles
Chest buckled
Upper zipper started
Pip Pins seated
The glider's a T2C and it's just about impossible to put it together without the pins fully and properly installed. Yes, check them in the setup area but then stop worrying about them.
Hook in
Leg Loop Buckles
Chest buckled
Upper zipper started
Fuck starting the upper zipper. If you:
- have the buckle the zipper doesn't matter
- don't have the buckle a started zipper may not do you a lot of good
- don't have either you're still through the arms openings - and that's usually enough

(I forgot the side buckle on an early High Energy Racer in which the zipper wasn't safetied with the Fastex clip (which appeared as a response to my incident), it was pulled apart by an aerotow, and it was no big fuckin' deal.)
Hook in
Leg Loop Buckles
Chest buckled
If you've got the leg loops you don't really need the chest buckled - and you can take care of that airborne if you want to.
Hook in
Leg Loop Buckles
Do you really need a card to remember all that? I never did.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: You are NEVER hooked in.

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30048
I launched with my harness UNBUCKLED
Greg Porter - 2013/10/03 03:11:48 UTC

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3UbztgTtsc
Scott MacLeod - 2013/10/03 03:31:48 UTC

Damn. Thanks for owning it and sharing...
zamuro - 2013/10/03 03:35:38 UTC

Yep Scary. Not sure if would have tried to caught a thermal to gain altitude rather than landing even in a small closer field. Glad that everything went OK and you made the bulls eye too Image
NMERider - 2013/10/03 03:37:39 UTC

Thank you for the excellent PSA Greg! Image Image Image Image

Ironically you are using the hang check system that was partially motivated by Kunio's fatal hook-in failure from the same site a few years back.
IRONICALLY? It was the fuckin' hang check system that CAUSED Kunio's fatal hook-in failure from the same site five years back.
Mitchell now owns Kunio's carbon base tube and I own the carbon base tube from another glider demolished by a hook-in failure. That pilot was o.k.
Is that why you Grebloville assholes collaborated with USHGA on THIS:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VW8qZESnFvQ


crap? So's you could pick up some cheap spare parts for your gliders?
For pilots faced with having to land with a fully zipped harness I suggest flying in prone and belly landing using the harness as a giant skid. Trying to flare while zipped in appears to whiplash the pilot downward with enough force to possibly do serious spinal and/or neck damage.
That happens to people...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fuMxK9PadzA


...NOT zipped up in their harnesses a good bit.
It is possible to bend your knees enough to slide in on your thighs and then flare hard once the glider has slowed. Be sure to let go of the downtubes in case the nose pitches down to avoid spiral fractures to your forearms. Just a suggestion!
Probably a good idea ANY time you go for a foot landing.
Greg Porter - 2013/10/03 03:43:16 UTC

Point is we gotta be measuring those types of decisions instead of freaking out and doing something to make the bad situation even worse.
How 'bout working on some of the decisions you're making before you leave the slope?
Greg Porter - 2013/10/03 03:47:24 UTC

Funny you mention the base tube. This actually cracked my carbon base tube during the landing, which added a couple of extra dollars [video]http://forum.hanggliding.org/images/smilies/icon_eek.gif[/video] to the repair. The old base tube now has a place of honor on the wall in my shop... had a lot of good flights with it.
And could easily have had many more - even taking into account the issue with the launch.
Good puts on landing options. I was surprised that i couldn't gauge the correct bar position for during flight and landing... plus there was a very strong gradient that I should have booked through, but I didn't, so I ended up kind of parachuting in. The one day I didn't fly with my wheels... go figure! Image Image
Hope it was worth it.
Dontsink - 2013/10/03 14:00:11 UTC
Spain

Thanks a lot for posting this!
Scary because it can happen to anyone, newbie, intermediate and expert.
No.
Good motivation to keep on being the weirdo who has a written, before takeoff checklist taped to the upright of my bird.
Try thinking less about the checklist and more about the four hundred foot drop.
Flight discipline is a royal PITA, but it works...
No - it DOESN'T. What really works is...
Rob Kells - 2005/12

Each of us agrees that it is not a particular method, but rather the fear of launching unhooked that makes us diligent to be sure we are hooked in every time before starting the launch run.
...FEAR.
...whatever method you use, be a stubborn square head and stick with it. Every single flight. If procedure is interrupted, start over.
Bullshit.
Glad you made it ok, great job under pressure.
Keep up the great work, Greg. Nothing like what you're doing to endear yourself to the Jack Show crowd.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: You are NEVER hooked in.

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30048
I launched with my harness UNBUCKLED
Jonathan Boarini - 2013/10/03 15:17:03 UTC
Miami

I'm glad you came out okay, and it's good to always learn from others.
Anybody who learned anything from this one:
- got signed off by a total piece of shit
- is incapable of learning anything anyway
I have the same harness so it's even more important. Thanks for sharing, very informative.
For you...
Jonathan Boarini - 82176 - H3 - 2008/05/07 - David Koehn - FL 360 CL FSL RLF TUR
Yeah.
H4
USHGA lists you as a Three.
Steve Seibel - 2013/10/03 16:04:38 UTC

gate partially closed-- another situation
Partial Hook-In

The phenomenon of a carabiner with its nose resting on the middle of the suspension webbing with its partially closed spring loaded gate holding things together is rare but potentially more deadly than that of one left dangling.
Another situation is when you know this is happening but still are "trapped" by it! Hooking in unassisted in strong wind, on top of a dune, I've found it difficult to fish the nose of the caribiner cleanly through the hang strap as the hang strap blows back in the wind.
You're also finding it difficult to SPELL "carabiner" - so I'm not surprised.
The Falcon's keel-attached hang strap has no spreader bar and thus tends to collapse flat and it's hard to fish through the nose of the caribiner cleanly into the opening with just one hand. The other hand is occupied with reaching forward to push against the front wires and hold the nose down. As you struggle to hook in it's easy to end up with the gate closed on the webbing.

If the wind rises at this point you are really screwed because you can't safely fly away, nor can you step forward to increase pressure on the nose wires and more easily hold the nose down like you would if you weren't hooked in. Even if the wind doesn't rise it can be hard to give yourself slack in the hang strap to fix the problem, without letting the nose come up and risking accidentally launching.

The strong pitch pressures of the Falcon are also contribute to the problem.

The only time I'm ever in this spot of trying to hook in unassisted in strong wind while already wearing the harness, is when playing on the sand dunes in smooth coastal air...

Various solutions:

- recognize the potential trap and be sure to hold the gate fully open and not let it spring closed unless you are sure you will be cleanly hooked in

- add a spreader bar to the hang strap even though it's a keel-mounted hang strap?

- combine the backup and main into one strap (perhaps even by wrapping a bit of clear tape around both?) so you can cleanly hook in to both straps at the same time
- question why you're using an idiot fucking backup loop in the first place when all it does is make things more dangerous
- hook in a little lower on the dune where conditions are not quite so challenging
- don't launch unassisted in insanely high winds
Steve Seibel - 2013/10/03 16:22:25 UTC

Thanks for taking the time to share in such a detailed way, that video will have lasting impact...
Bullshit.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29995
What are your thoughts on quest air?
Andrew Vanis - 2013/09/24 22:40:06 UTC

Quest rocks Image
Davis Straub - 2013/09/24 22:47:58 UTC

It's a good time.
snowbird - 2013/09/24 22:48:23 UTC
Florida / North Carolina

Great place, great people.
Matt Christensen - 2013/09/25 01:25:19 UTC
Vienna, Virginia

Great place, Great people!
Jim Gaar - 2013/09/25 12:39:38 UTC

Image Image
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg
Image

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25180
Recommended schools/instructors in the SF Bay Area
CAL - 2012/02/15 01:46:23 UTC
Ogden

welcome, i learned at Mission Soaring center, with Pat Denevan, they have a great shop probably the only one with a store that you can walk into, ask for Pat and tell him Cal sent you he will treat you well, he will set you up with anything related to hang gliding

Have fun !
Paul Hurless - 2012/02/15 02:06:50 UTC

Image
John Fritsche - 2012/02/15 02:13:50 UTC
Lompoc

Mission Soaring has a solid 30-year (or more?) history. The owner is very dedicated to excellent instruction and equipment. He does it right.
Carmela Moreno - 2012/02/15 18:13:18 UTC

There are some top quality instructors in the BA. Whoever you choose you will not go wrong.
162-20727
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8576/16673571861_3962427127_o.png
Image
Robert Moore - 2013/10/03 17:01:16 UTC

I once launched my Rotor Vulto (same as yours?) with the leg loops unhooked, but the chest buckled. When it came time to land, I unzipped, but put one foot in the crotch of the zipper to support my weight. Just as I flared, I pulled out both feet and had a good landing.
Greg Porter - 2013/10/03 17:30:24 UTC
Excellent top landings in your video! What a great way to practice takeoffs and landings in a 'single' glide from top to bottom. Thanks for posting it. Also was amazed at your link to the "Balloon Me" footage. Beautiful views. Always wanted to fly next to hot air balloons. Wow. Image
This really isn't stuff that you should - or can afford to be - focusing on right now, Greg.
Greg Porter - 2013/10/03 17:34:25 UTC

It would be great if the vid can help current pilots and those who come into the sport in the future. It'll be posted there for a long time, I hope!
So... Why aren't:
- people being tuned into this by there fucking USHGA instructors before they get their Ones signed off?
- there any magazine articles - or even letters to the editor - about it?
Thanks for the support!
Keep fucking up and telling everyone how great their ideas are. You'll never find yourself hurting for Jack Show support.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: You are NEVER hooked in.

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30048
I launched with my harness UNBUCKLED
Brian Horgan - 2013/10/03 18:08:52 UTC

oh man thats a scary one.Its way cool you have video.I bet you wont make that mistake again.Ok now back on the horse. Image
Assholes betting that mistake won't be made again is a one hundred percent guarantee that it will. I bet that mistake's about to be made again every time I launch - or observe anyone else launching.
Geoffrey Chaney - 2013/10/03 18:41:46 UTC
Tarpon Springs

Many thxs. These are the best videos because at least I have a chance of learning from others.....Peace On
Rubbish. This shit's been going on since the beginning of hang gliding and the sport's no closer to fixing the problem than it ever was.
Brian Horgan - 2013/10/03 18:51:42 UTC

i could not have said it better myself! Dont ever take advice from a pilot who hasent flown with you in person or at least has video of them flying.There are allot of armchair pilots on the web. Image
Image

Image
Greg Porter - 2013/10/03 19:03:37 UTC

Yep, back on the horse and with the checklist I hope to never repeat that one!
You didn't understand a single fucking word of my article.
I am a bit worried about what the next mistake might be, though!! Image
How very odd. I don't seem to be the very least bit worried about what your next mistake will be.
Thanks for the support and the reply noman.
2013/10/03 19:41:35 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Brian Horgan
Greg Porter - 2013/10/03 19:04:27 UTC
Many thxs. These are the best videos because at least I have a chance of learning from others.....Peace On
Good point, man if we had to learn everything for the first time ourselves I think we'd all be dead.
Guys like YOU would be.
Greg Porter - 2013/10/02

Preflight Checklist

Towing
- Harness
-- Bridle attached
-- Weak link on right (release left)
-- Weak link check/replace
This asshole:

Image

had the advantage of about eleven decades of aviation theory and technology to draw on and only lasted three years.

These guys:

http://cdn.theatlantic.com/assets/media/img/photo/2014/08/first-flight-with-the-wright-brothers/w02_00wright/main_1200.jpg
Image

pretty much started from scratch, flew a lot of stuff that had no track records whatsoever and no Dragonfly jockeys or bits of fishing line making their decisions for them, and didn't end their careers getting carried off of fields.
Thanks for the reply.
Great bunch of people, aren't they?
Mark Selner - 2013/10/03 19:37:30 UTC
Apple Valley

ill never forget launching with out my leg loops on.i sunk down so low i couldnt get my foot in the harness.i seen a video of a guy flying with out a harness at the beach.so i did a pull up about three times to get my hands up high enough on the tubes to get my feet on the base tube maby if you did this you could of got the chest strap on.maby or maby not.but you might of also flew like this to the landing zone to save the zipper
Mark Selner - 92054 - H2 - 2012/07/28 - Dan DeWeese - FL FSL
The 2009 USHPA Awards
C.J. Sturtevant

Commendation

Dan DeWeese

Dan designed, created the mold, and fabricated a series of "Hook In!" reminders that currently adorn launches throughout California, New Mexico, Utah, Idaho, Nevada and New Mexico. The two o's in "Hook" are castings of carabiners, making the reminder uniquely attention-grabbling and effective. Dan has been handing out the plaques for free to anyone who wants one, but after this winter's batch he's going to pass the mold to Mike Kelsey in Arizona, with the expectation that Mike will send it on to another area when he's finished with it. Anyone interested in obtaining Dan's mold, or creating a mold of their own design, can contact Dan at rebardan@gmail.com.
11-091400
Image

Fuckin' asshole.
Tim Dyer - 2013/10/03 19:37:57 UTC

Glad your ok.(important part) We are all human.
That's why we've got procedures we're supposed to follow.
Thanks for posting

Loops(hang loops)
Locked(carabiner)
Lines( not tangled)
Length(over base tube)
Lid(helmet)
Laundry(parachute)
Legs( leg loops)

Lift& tug
Lift and tug. The rest is pretty much crap.
Launch!
Brian Horgan - 2013/10/03 19:40:40 UTC

the fact that you are worried about what might happen next means you will live a long carrier in hg,i predict.
Really? Doesn't that conflict a bit with:
Brian Horgan - 2013/10/03 18:08:52 UTC

I bet you wont make that mistake again.
This sport punishes the cocky and rewards the humble.
Nature does. The sport does the precise opposite. Ditto with respect to all other negative and positive characteristics.
I launched unhooked once and it changed a big part of my set up.I never forgot and learned allot of humility that day.
I never came anywhere close to launching unhooked primarily because I didn't need to learn any humility - I was dead certain that that was a mistake I WOULD soon make. But I guess you're a much better pilot than I am because you learned so much by fucking up.
It shows good character to post a mistake like that when its you.
What did you think of the fatality reports from Sam Kellner, Paulen Tjaden, and Dr. Trisa Tilletti?
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: You are NEVER hooked in.

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30048
I launched with my harness UNBUCKLED
deltaman - 2013/10/04 08:16:13 UTC
Greg Porter - 2013/10/03 17:30:24 UTC

Excellent top landings in your video! What a great way to practice takeoffs and landings in a 'single' glide from top to bottom. thanks for posting it.
Hey gpwrinkled,
this video was not for aesthetic but to illustrate the article and show you the Lift & Tug *JUST* the *INSTANT* before EVERY 5 takes off.

Everything that is happened more than 2sec before the take off is memory, that we can forget.
What we need is emotion, be terrified to take off without be hanged or buckled.
I assume despite anything I did before, I'm NEVER hooked before to launch.
As I have a spontaneous visual check before to cross a crowded highway, I naturally check that I'm hooked JUST PRIOR TO LAUNCH.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9G8ERElpjM
http://www.hanggliding.org/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=8041
Viewing profile
Occupation:
Aerospace
So much for the expression: "You don't have to be a rocket scientist to..."

Reminds me a lot of:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=16384
Tow Release Malfunction
Richard Bryant - 2010/03/26 11:55:05 UTC

Yep, amazing quality for a camera that costs less than $40.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: You are NEVER hooked in.

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30048
I launched with my harness UNBUCKLED
Greg Porter - 2013/10/04 13:22:26 UTC
deltaman - 2013/10/04 08:16:13 UTC

Hey gpwrinkled,
this video was not for aesthetic but to illustrate the article and show you the Lift & Tug *JUST* the *INSTANT* before EVERY 5 takes off.

Everything that is happened more than 2sec before the take off is memory, that we can forget.
What we need is emotion, be terrified to take off without be hanged or buckled.
I assume despite anything I did before, I'm NEVER hooked before to launch.
As I have a spontaneous visual check before to cross a crowded highway, I naturally check that I'm hooked JUST PRIOR TO LAUNCH.
EXCELLENT points on the lift and tug while on launch to be sure you feel the leg loops tight, Deltaman. I mentioned this in the video about some pilots doing it so thanks for the video example of how you do it. I missed the point in your first reply so I highlighted your points in red above and included your video link. Hope others take notice as well. Thanks!
EXCELLENT points on the lift and tug while on launch to be sure you feel the leg loops tight, Deltaman.
Yeah Greg. Like everything everybody's posted on that thread has been an EXCELLENT point.
I mentioned this in the video about some pilots doing it...
Then you very conspicuously omitted telling us:
- why you:
-- didn't do it on the occasion upon which you REALLY needed to
-- have never been one of the lift and tug crowd you've been observing
- that you have the slightest intention of ever incorporating this procedure as the beginning of your launch sequence

Care to hit on any of those points at this stage of the discussion? Just kidding.
I mentioned this in the video about some pilots doing it so thanks for the video example of how you do it.
1. You mentioned that...
Greg Porter - 2013/10/02

A lot of pilots will pick up the glider until they feel the tension on their leg loops to be sure that those leg loops are attached.
...A LOT of pilots do it.

2. Oh. So now that you've seen a video of this advanced procedure being executed by an expert you think you might be up to giving it a shot on a training hill sometime?

3. So seeing a lot of pilots doing this live at Mingus wasn't doing it for you? And you asked them to teach you this technique but they all told you to fuck off?
I missed the point in your first reply so I highlighted your points in red above and included your video link.
Great. Are ya gonna DO IT, motherfucker? Are we gonna see you doing it in your next video?
Hope others take notice as well.
1. Sure. They'll take notice. And then they'll continue going on exactly as they have before since the first day they hooked into a glider on the training hill.

2. And you're gonna use your influence to:
- encourage others to incorporate this procedure at Mingus
- get your fucking idiot instructors to start complying with the relevant SOP
Thanks!
Fuck you! You have your checklist that you're gonna go through and stow out of sight...

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=802
AL's Second flight at Packsaddle how it went
Rick Masters - 2011/10/19 22:47:17 UTC

At that moment, I would banish all concern about launching unhooked. I had taken care of it. It was done. It was out of my mind.
...and mind just before you walk up on the ramp to launch. And I'm really looking forward to seeing the next quantum improvement to the gene pool coming out of Arizona - hopefully on high resolution video.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: You are NEVER hooked in.

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30048
I launched with my harness UNBUCKLED
mrcc - 2013/10/04 09:25:31 UTC
Auckland

Great post with a very positive outcome. Image
Nah. He lived.
It could have easily happen to me on any no. of flights due to a lack or lost of concentration attributing to other external factors.
Good.
I think your check list is great idea & maybe I will attach it to the top of my harness where after reading will store it inside the harness with velco.
You do that.
Greg Porter - 2013/10/04 14:13:51 UTC

Having the checklist anywhere that works for you is terrific!!
Told ya so.
Dan Schroeder's system (a fellow AZ Mingus pilot) was based on the idea that if the Final Checklist was somehow ALWAYS dangling in front of you when you were hooked in just prior to launch, then you had less chance of forgetting to go through the Final Checklist just before launching. He had a small quick-disconnect (like you see on some car key rings) that was diaper-pinned to side of the main sail zipper fabric out near the nose of the glider. The lower half of the quick disconnect (which was obviously removable) trailed the same bright red streamer and plastic card that you see in my video. The hard plastic card has a hole cut in it right at the very edge of the card, with a slit cut between the hole and the edge of the card that allows the card to be bent and the hole to be opened temporarily. This slit allowed the card and wound-up red streamer (when detached from the quick-release) to be clipped (muscled) onto the harness carabiner, where it hung for the flight. When unhooking from the glider after the flight, the pilot is reminded of the card because it's right there on the carabiner. The pilot would right then remove it and re-attach it via the quick-disconnect to the other half of the quick-disconnect that was still diaper-pinned to the main zipper. Then, with the card once again dangling near the nose with its bright red streamer, the card is folded up with the glider and is once again dangling for the next flight. A great system I think, because the card is "always" dangling right in front of your face when you are hooked in to the glider prior to launch. If the pilot doesn't notice it (tough not too!) then launch assistants probably would, thus reminding the pilot to go through the final checklist. (Fyi I don't know why the words "pilot" and "glider" are greyed hyperlinks... something that hangglinder.org does I guess)

I changed the setup a bit and prefer the card to be permanently tied with a simple knot to an existing brass-grommeted hole in the sail under the nose cone because
1) It's never detached during the flight process so I can't lose it,
2) When stowed under the nose cone it doesn't compromise the aerodynamics of the glider by flapping around on the carabiner
3) It's still dangling in front of me before every flight, without fail
4) I can easily reach it, review it, and stow it while fully hooked in and prepared to launch.
5) I velcro my nosecone on during preflight when I temporarily have full VG. With this system I don't have to un-velcro the nose cone in order to stow the card, since the card has its own velcro and simply slides under the nosecone and sticks to the velcro I place on the back side of the nose cone..

Oh, before I forget, 2 important things about the contents of the 2 checklists:
1) Ensure that the first item on the Final Checklist card is "Pre-Flight Checklist Completed" or something like that.
2) Ensure that one of the items on the Pre-Flight Checklist is "Final Checklist Card is Dangling from the Glider" or something like that.


So like I said initially, Having the checklist anywhere that works for the pilot is terrific !... the idea is to find a method that ensures the pilot is reminded to use the card on every flight.
I gave all the detail above because I just wanted everyone to know the thought process behind the current system, so they could consider those points as they decide what works best for them.
Many thanks for your your input on how you might use the checklist. That opened the door for us to talk about all of this, hopefully to everyone's benefit. I'm glad it looks like this has been helpful.
All the best and safe flying to you. Oh, and good to hear from you, hadn't posted with you in a while. One of my dream flights is to be where you are! Thanks again! Image Greg
Total load o' crap.
Paul Edwards - 2013/10/04 14:21:46 UTC

It's a really good system Greg. I like the fact that it stays attached all the time, automatically resets it's position when you break down the glider, is easy to access and stow away from the hooked-in-ready-to-launch state, and of course completely disappears when you tuck it under the nose cone causing no parasitic drag. I think I will put something like that together for myself.
I really hope you do. What could possibly be more effective than a warning device that completely disappears a minute or two before you...

http://vimeo.com/74791555

http://vimeo.com/22468086


...run off a cliff?
If I were a pilot...
But you're NOT - and NEVER WILL BE.
...who routinely does repeated aerotows I might have to reconsider the attachment point to something that would require me to reset it after each tow.
Yeah. Make sure you have this checklist properly installed for repeated aerotow launches...

http://vimeo.com/25631937


...so you don't go off unhooked.

(Yes, you can go off:

- unhooked on a foot launch aerotow...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u51qpPLz5U0


...but first you have to be stupid enough to foot launch aerotow.

- minus leg loops...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_oF-BSqnEs


...but:
-- there's virtually never a need to go upright for an aerotow (or any other) operation landing
-- big fuckin' deal anyway - you're not gonna fall out of the harness transitioning to upright on approach)
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: You are NEVER hooked in.

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30048
I launched with my harness UNBUCKLED
Greg Porter - 2013/10/04 15:11:07 UTC

You will find that when you set the nose cone initially (I do it with full VG during pre-flight) that you will have to drape the card's string so that when you stow the card just before launching you don't have to un-velcro the nose cone to cleanly get all the string back into the cone. You'll see what I mean when you do it the first time. The goal is to NOT un-velcro the nose cone itself once it was set in the right position for full VG.

If I did it again, I wouldn't use the hard plastic card. It's pretty thick. Just laminating cheap printed out paper with clear packing tape on both sides would do the same... add the self stick velcro and you are good to go - it's cheaper, easier to update, thinner, and therefore slides even more easily under the nose cone.

Really good point about the aerotowing angle. I will have to think about that. If you come up with something please post it here. Am towing tomorrow so will chew on it a bit. Thanks! Image
A few points on this bullshit...

There are THREE THINGS valuable in preventing unsecured launches:
- preflight - carabiner closed over loop, leg loops
- fear / assumption of not being hooked in and secure
- hook-in check as the initial action in the launch sequence

Make that four things. Add:
- a competent pilot community that understands the issue and ensures that proper procedures are adhered to

Fuck, make it three. That last one - thanks entirely to Industry social engineering and total idiots such as yourself - will NEVER HAPPEN.

Anything less, other, more WILL increase the frequency of unsecured launches.
- hang checks
- Aussie Methodism
- checklists
- gadgets

Competent pilots don't use checklists for anything that matters on hang glider systems 'cause:

- hang gliders are too simple to require checklists

- it's easier, faster, more efficient, more effective, safer to just look at and check the fuckin' glider than it is to look at a checklist and then reference the designated issues

- sometimes you can get an issue like the Aeros Combat carbon crossbar that dwarfs all others and can't be detected during a preflight inspection - with or without a printed checklist

Here's your setup area preflight checklist from your video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3UbztgTtsc
I Launched Without Buckling into my Harness - a hang gliding film by Greg Porter
Preflight Checklist

Not attached to anything
Laminated (clear packing tape works good)

Column 1

Wing Camera
Hang Cord dangling
- Extra Battery ON
- Batt Cable connected
- Remote Cable connected
- Remote Start/Stop Test
Down Tube Camera
Glider:
- Lower Battens
- Sprog zippers
- Full VG
-- Nose Cone
-- Guy wire connections
-- Leading Edge check
-- Tip Velcros flat
-- Battens locked
- Center main sail zipper closed
Vario and PITOT tube
Streamer
Bar Mitts
I-Phone pocket
Wallet
Vehicle Prep
- Magnetic Antenna
- Car Radio
- Hand Mic/Spkr
- Correct channel
- Keypad Locked
Portable Radio
- Correct Channel
- Keypad locked
Truck key hidden

Column 2

Harness Prep
- O2
-- Tank ON
-- Test O2 system
-- Computer 10K
Smoke Bomb
Water
Protein bar
GPS
Power Bank
- I-Phone charging cable
Red recharger
Extra Radio battery
Android Phone
Chute pins
Drogue chute ready
Storage bags stowed
Hat stowed
Radio ON
Sunglasses
Towing
- Wheels
- Harness
-- Bridle attached
-- Weak link on right (release left)
-- Weak link check/replace
Here it is edited down to shit that actually matters and isn't blindly obvious:
Preflight Checklist

Guy wire connections
Leading Edge check
Chute pins
Replace the parachute pins with short thick cord sections which stay put and you're down to:
Preflight Checklist

Guy wire connections
Leading Edge check
Out in the real world - we don't have non aerobatic leading edge failures.
Preflight Checklist

Guy wire connections
Here's the most important critical preflight check you can run on ANY glider:
While pushing up on the leading edge between the nose and the crossbar junction, step on the bottom side wire with about 75 (50 for topless) pounds of force. This is a rough field test of the structural security of the side wire loop, the control bar and the crossbar, and may reveal a major structural defect that could cause an in-flight failure in normal operation.
It's in ALL of the Wills Wing owner's manuals, all you fly is Wills Wing gliders, and it's not on your checklist and you don't do it - probably 'cause if you did do it you might not have enough time left over for the "Remote Start/Stop Test" for your starboard wing camera.

And I one hundred percent guarantee you that, given enough monkeys, typewriters, time...
You will find that when you set the nose cone initially (I do it with full VG during pre-flight) that you will have to drape the card's string so that when you stow the card just before launching you don't have to un-velcro the nose cone to cleanly get all the string back into the cone. You'll see what I mean when you do it the first time. The goal is to NOT un-velcro the nose cone itself once it was set in the right position for full VG.
That fuckin' card of yours will be left or fall out of the nose cone, the "pilot" will unhook - either on approach to or at launch - to secure it and...
Steve Kinsley - 1998/05/01 01:16

So Marc thinks the Australian method will forever ban human error and stupidity. I suspect that 80% of the flying community would have unhooked to fix the radio problem instead of getting out of the harness entirely. It is easier. And there you are back in the soup.

"With EACH flight, demonstrates method of establishing that pilot is hooked in JUST PRIOR to launch." Emphasis in original.-- USHGA novice through advanced requirement.

I know of only three people that actually do this. I am one of them. I am sure there are more but not a lot more. Instead we appear to favor ever more complex (and irrelevant) hang checks or schemes like Marc advocates that possibly increase rather than decrease the risk of hook in failure.
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1167
The way it outa be
Steve Kinsley - 2005/10/04 14:04:25 UTC

One last attempt.

We have now rounded up all the usual suspects and promised renewed vigilance, nine page checklists, hang checks every six feet, et cetera. Bob Gillisse redux.
User avatar
Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: You are NEVER hooked in.

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30048
I launched with my harness UNBUCKLED
hpyatcldbs - 2013/10/04 16:14:05 UTC
Colorado

Thanks for sharing that humbling experience. Way to go on keeping your head together!! That video will be imprinted on my mind forever.
Yeah, awesome job, Greg... You're now firmly established on...
Brian Horgan - 2013/10/03 18:51:42 UTC

i could not have said it better myself! Dont ever take advice from a pilot who hasent flown with you in person or at least has video of them flying.There are allot of armchair pilots on the web. Image
...Brian's approved list. And two assholes should share a very special bond because both of you have launched unsecured as a direct consequence of violating the SOPs and have developed moronic strategies to allow you to continue to violate the SOPs and get away with shit.
Greg Porter - 2013/10/04 16:56:04 UTC

Mine too !!! Image Glad it helped.
What's your evidence that it "helped". It DIDN'T. You put yourself into a potentially lethal situation because you violated the SOPs, you're gonna continue violating the SOPs and ignoring the tiny minority of people who know what the fuck they're doing and talking about and sabotaging their message, and you're implementing crap that will increase the frequency of unhooked launches.
Fly safe.
What the fuck do you know about flying safe?
Thanks for the reply! Image
Go to hell.
Dan Moser - 2013/10/04 17:25:10 UTC
Sandy, Utah

Thanks for sharing the video, Greg.

I had a similar issue with my old side-entry Tracer pod harness once..
I did the hang check and it felt OK with me kicked into the boot.
The hang check was even witnessed by another pilot who also flies a Tracer.. neither of us noticed the unbuckled main.
I took off and immediately learned all my weight was in one leg loop.. and the side zipper was half undone Image
If it hadn't been you would've continued not noticing the buckle issue and it wouldn't have mattered.
The boot was twisted over to one side, so I couldn't get my feet into it! Image
I hastily left lift and landed below .. poorly, but unhurt.. I was lucky.
What was the worst you expected to happen?
The "5 C" checklist I have used since then:
Crotch (leg loops)
Clip (main harness clips)
Chin (chinstrap on helmet)
Chute (parachute safety pins in)
Carabiner (hooked in to the hang loops and locked)
Fuck the Five Cs.
I now fly a cocoon, which doesn't have the a main loop clip to leave undone, but ya still gotta check the leg loops...
But, of course, ONLY during your Five Cs Hang Check and NEVER via lift and tug just prior to launch.
...3& back strap.
Why? How many times have you needed the back strap?
Daniel Moser - 75363 - H4 - 2010/08/05 - Ryan Voight - FL 360 AWCL CL RLF TUR XC
Greg Porter - 2013/10/04 17:28:16 UTC

Thanks for replying with the experience, and with the 5C checklist. I'm sure it will help someone. Thanks Dan! Image
Yeah Greg. I'm sure too. If you look at the track record that Grebloville has achieved you'll see that the overwhelming percentage of launches go off with people having both leg loops, all harness and helmet buckles clipped, both parachute pins engaged, and carabiners properly connected and locked. What kinda whack job would wanna try to reinvent THAT wheel?
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Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: You are NEVER hooked in.

Post by Tad Eareckson »

I would SO like to get this asshole.

- In his video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3UbztgTtsc
I Launched Without Buckling into my Harness - a hang gliding film by Greg Porter
Greg Porter - 2013/10/02

A lot of pilots will pick up the glider until they feel the tension on their leg loops to be sure that those leg loops are attached.
...he, for all intents and purposes, acknowledges that the lift and tug guys would've caught this.

- He responds to Antoine's link to the article...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30048
I launched with my harness UNBUCKLED
Greg Porter - 2013/10/03 14:22:39 UTC

THANKS! This is an excellent summary of potential issues during launch and how to guard against them. Leg loops are just one element in a host of things that can spell disaster. Many thanks for this link. I have saved the PDF in my library. Image Image Image
...in a manner leaving any but the most careful and jaded reader with no doubt whatsoever that he's coming on board with what a lot of pilots will do.

- He responds to Antoine's catch of his subtle dodge...
Greg Porter - 2013/10/04 13:22:26 UTC

EXCELLENT points on the lift and tug while on launch to be sure you feel the leg loops tight, Deltaman. I mentioned this in the video about some pilots doing it so thanks for the video example of how you do it. I missed the point in your first reply so I highlighted your points in red above and included your video link. Hope others take notice as well. Thanks!
...with even more slimy duplicitous crap.

Somebody pin the motherfucker down and get some straight answers out of him.

- If you had - like a lot of pilots - picked up your glider until you felt the tension on your leg loops to be sure that those leg loops were attached, would you have launched with your leg loops unattached?

- What was your reason for not doing that on:
-- that particular flight?
-- all of your previous flights?

- Do you intend to pick up your glider until you feel the tension on your leg loops on all future flights?

- Why not?

- How much worse is the false sense of security you get as a consequence of lift and tug than the false sense of security you get as a consequence of doing nothing before running off the ramp?

- How do you normally comply with the USHGA regulation:
With each flight, demonstrates a method of establishing that the pilot is hooked in just prior to launch.
- How do you define "just prior to launch? Five, ten, or fifteen minutes?

- If the article is such a fucking excellent summary of potential issues during launch and how to guard against them and you've saved the PDF in your library:

-- why haven't you referenced it in the comments in your wonderful and highly acclaimed PSA video?

-- what does that say about USHGA's video...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VW8qZESnFvQ
Pre Flight Safety for Hang Gliding - Revision
...on the issues?
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