Releases

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29415
Holy Crap

deltaman - 2013/07/03 20:55:48 UTC

Please Lin,
Would you explain me why your school decided to use a release system with just one bridle going OVER the bar ?

'Cause they can punch a copy out in five minutes using less than two bucks worth of materials and call it state-of-the-art equipment.

I would understand if it was a tow at low angle for teaching.

They don't do teaching at Mission. Why do you think he's out on a forum trying to get information?

But here, that seems to me not very appropriate for the relevance of the tow as it works as a AoA limiter.

And if that doesn't limit his AoA (in this particular instance to a bar stuffed dive arrestable only by means of his parachute) he's also got a Peter Birren Pitch Limiter and a Hewett Link.

And that represents the danger you know now.

But that's not gonna stop him from going back up on the same equipment - especially now that he's got some parachute experience under his belt and his hook knife safetied to his harness.

Lin Lyons - 2013/07/03 20:57:23 UTC

A Falcon-4 is what I have and it's very nice.

It would be a little nicer if you'd spent a couple of hundred bucks on the right equipment for the job.

Not that I have enough experience to judge, but that's the comment I get from everyone who has flown it.

Why do you need EXPERIENCE to judge? It's a plane. Planes are numbers. I don't have a whole lotta time in an SR-71 but I know it's a totally fucking awesome aircraft.

That said, if you're young, and athletic, you might eventually want a double surface glider.

I'm gonna take Joe prospective hang glider student and start him out from scratch on a T2C with big fuckin' wheels and orders to never even think about landing on his feet (unless it's over twelve, straight, and smooth and I'm not looking). I'm gonna take him through to his Three and he's never gonna miss a hook-in check, break a downtube or arm, overshoot a field, pop a weak link, or find himself locked out and reaching for his release or welded to his towline and reaching for his parachute.

You do want lots of experience before you do that - they are far less forgiving.

Yeah...

162-20727
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8576/16673571861_3962427127_o.png


Right.

I'm 72, and it's unlikely that I'm going to enter any contests.

You're entering a contest every time you clip into a glider (or think you have). And it's an extremely high stakes game and there's a very high percentage of the participants who become serious losers.

I expect that there will be occasions when I'll wish I had a glider that'd fly faster, or higher.

Or at all.

But the one I have has taken very good care of me.

Return the favor. Equip it properly for the job you're asking it to do.

I highly recommend the "4".

What did the owner's manual specify for a weak link and, for remote surface towing, a release?

But, unless you're flush, you want to think about what you really want before putting down $5k.

You also might wanna think a lot about your instructional program and towing equipment and driver.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29415
Holy Crap

Lin Lyons - 2013/07/03 21:19:38 UTC

deltaman - 2013/07/03 20:55:48 UTC

Please Lin,
Would you explain me why your school decided to use a release system with just one bridle going OVER the bar ?

A) Not my school.

It sure wouldn't have been mine after that.

Not my choice.

You're the fuckin' owner and Pilot In Command of that aircraft - and you're the one who gets killed when someone on one, the other, or both ends of the towline screws a pooch or two.

B) They've been around forty years, so one really can't complain all that much.

Stalin was around for the better part of thirty - and one really couldn't complain all that much for most of that period either.

C) When talking to folks elsewhere, the comments I get are the Pat's students pay top dollar, and are the best trained.

Yeah, with that equipment and that caliber of a winch driver they'd hafta be.

I think, "You'll be a strong hang-2" was one of the comments.

That which does not kill us makes us stronger - unless, of course, we get smashed up to the extent John Woiwode did and hafta have limbs amputated. Then it does just the opposite.

D) They use the same bridle for everything - foot launch, low and high, and cart launch.

And all the aerotow parks use the same piece of fishing line as the focal point of their safe towing systems. 200, 250, 300, 350 pounds, one or two point... So one really can't complain all that much about that either - we're all playing by the same rules. What could be more fair than that?

E) The auto-release attaches to it very nicely and works almost too well.

No shit.

It occasionally releases when I'd rather not.

Yeah, sometimes when a piece of string acts as Pilot In Command and makes a decision based on its strength or length it's not the one its passenger would've had as a first pick.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/7066
AT SOPs - proposed revisions

Peter Birren - 2009/05/10 01:33:57 UTC

If you want a truly foolproof release, it's got to be one that eliminates the pilot from the equation with a release that operates automatically. Certain tradeoffs would have to be made, like limiting the top altitude of a surface-based tow or having it release within certain limits of pitch, but if you want to legislate safety.... See http://www.birrendesign.com/LKOpinions.html for more details. I am not trying to push the automatic release, definitely not the way you're pushing your setup, but it works.

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=649
missing release

Tad Eareckson - 2011/05/13 11:45:40 UTC

Idiots who deliberately advise configurations which auto release at high pitch attitudes to protect against lockouts - like Peter Birren - should be shot two or three times to make sure.

Fuckin' idiot.

But, better to release unneeded, than not release when I need it.

Yep.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8143/7462005802_bbc0ac66ac_o.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg

I did learn that lesson.

So did Sam Kellner, Terry Mason, Paul and Lauren Tjaden, Mark Frutiger, and Zack Marzec. EVERYBODY in hang gliding learns that lesson. Better safe at the cost of a bit of inconvenience than sorry.

F) What I was told was that they'd never seen an accident like mine.

Was your situation compromised by an invisible dust devil?

I did have a kink in one of the loops, early on, and landed, on a fairly straight course, with the tow line still attached. That time, the tow pressure was so low that it didn't pull the kink out. If the tow pressure had been stronger, it would have released fine.

Definitely. And everybody knows that...

Jerry Forburger - 1990/10

High line tensions reduce the pilot's ability to control the glider and we all know that the killer "lockout" is caused by high towline tension.

...nothing bad can happen to you at lot tow pressures - Mister...

Lin Lyons - 2013/07/03 17:07:08 UTC

I am, however, pretty good at physics.

Pretty-Good-At-Physics.

Probably not the answer you're looking for...

That's alright. It's the answer that makes YOU HAPPY. It's what YOU are most comfortable with. And that's really all that matters.

...but that's my story and I'm sti... (well you know).

Yeah Lin, that's the answer I expected - well I know. And I'm totally cool with it 'cause we need to kill a couple more people who learned this lesson to really get people's attention and fix this sport. And it doesn't make much difference whether it's you or some other asshole who's religious beliefs you're reinforcing. So keep talking on The Jack Show, making lotsa friends, and showering me with some really great quotes.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29415
Holy Crap

Tom Lyon - 2013/07/04 00:25:29 UTC

Thanks for the feedback and advice. I can't wait!

Neither can I Jackie!

I have researched the double surface prospect very carefully.

Maybe you should've spent a little more time researching what can happen to a glider that gets dumped off tow when its nose gets popped up.

Even if I do decide someday that I'd like more performance and I'm really good at flying the Falcon, I'm positive that I'll never want to sell it. So, I'm comfortable with the extra expense of buying one new.

Give Trisa my love when you next see them.

Mike Lake - 2013/07/04 00:25:41 UTC

Hi Lin Lyons,

At 72 I'm impressed.

I know I am.

60 this birthday and I thought I was doing well!

Me too - and I can never tell how I'll be doing from one moment to the next.

I hope I can help with some of your questions.

NO! He's perfectly happy with what he's been getting and we can really use the videos.

A two stage release (Koch) has two release mechanisms and two release handles mounted on a unit normally attached to a point around about the pilot's chest.

These are purpose made well engineered pieces of kit and unlike some other release types cannot easily be knocked up from some spare parts from other industries.

Hey! If velcro works to keep your jacket sleeves snugged up tight on your wrists it should be perfectly fine for securing bicycle brake levers in perfect position on your downtubes. And if 130 pound Greenspot is good enough for the International Game Fish Association it's more than good enough to be hauling three hundred pound gliders up through violent thermal turbulence.

This makes them expensive, but they pretty much last a lifetime even for the young.

Yeah, well Zack Marzec's equipment...

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8394/8696380718_787dbc0005_o.png


...lasted HIM a lifetime and it only cost him about eighteen bucks - after his employee discount from Kitty Hawk. And the focal point of that system only cost about two and half cents.

These work with something we in the UK call a threader, which is basically a piece of cord arranged in a V with one line of the V about a meter long and the other two meters long.

Sounds complicated - and that's NEVER a good thing.

In use the longer line goes under the base bar with the shorter line over the top attaching to their corresponding release mechanism. At the apex of the V there is a...

...BHPA regulation...

...weak-link and this is in turn is attached to the towline. This is the common arrangement.
Tow line, weak-link, threader, short line over, long line under.

Have you tried it the other way around? I hear you can get a totally awesome climb rate.

The weak-link is inline and away from the pilot with nothing much to snag, no rings or loops nothing to unthread.
All very neat and (almost) foolproof to connect up.

If it's so fuckin' good how come Steve Wendt, Pat Denevan, and Harold Johnson aren't using it?

The pilot launches foot (or trolley), but mostly foot in our case and because of the shorter top line the tow tension is routed over the bar with the longer bottom line just dangling below.

Once the pilot gets to about 100 feet the winch backs off a bit and the pilot releases the top line. The tow force is then transferred to the bottom line so the pilot can climb unrestricted to as high as is practical.

Or his BHPA approved weak link blows up in his face and dumps him back on the runway - whichever comes first.

At the top of the tow the lower line is released. The tow-line, weak-link and threader all fall away leaving just the release unit.
In an emergency a quick slap of the chest and the two release mechanisms work in unison to dump both lines.

In a REAL emergency you don't hafta do ANYTHING - the weak link will always break before you can get into too much trouble.

At no point does any line interfere with the base bar and with a bit of practice the transformation from upper to lower line is seamless.

So we have something that is routed over the base bar on take off avoiding any upwards line interference with possible pitch up issues and under the base bar once at a reasonable height, which is just where you need it. The best of both worlds.

Until you crush your chest anyway.

As BisleyBob stated the attachment point at chest height is not a problem during T/O with the tow forces transferring comfortably through the harness to the hang point, the only place for them to go.

Bullshit. Read Donnell's Skyting newsletters. Tow force running to the pilot stops at the pilot. And if you don't have a third of the tow force going to the glider's center of mass the glider will pitch up violently and whipstall when the one G weak link prevents it from being pitched up even more violently. This kind of towing simply isn't possible - and I can show you the vector diagrams to prove it.

In fact the chest height position is a good compromise to get maximum benefit from a two stage system.
The unit does not effect your flying or landing in fact after a while you are unaware you have one fitted.

Just use a couple of barrel releases...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3391
More on Zapata and weak link

Paul Tjaden - 2008/07/22 04:32:22 UTC

I have never had a lockout situation happen so quickly and dramatically and had no chance to release as I have always thought I could do.

Then it doesn't matter whether or not they're fitted.

There is no place for an auto release with this system nor would I ever ever ever want one.

Yeah but, again, don't tell him that. Some day one of them is gonna work REALLY WELL and we'll be able to take down Pat and Peter with one stone.

A disconnection from the tow line at a time when maybe the nose has popped up due to a gust or thermal is the very worst thing I can think of.

Depends a lot on who's on the line and which operation it is.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29415
Holy Crap

Lin Lyons - 2013/07/04 00:45:23 UTC

Where is your parachute in relation to the Koch release bar?

At this point, I'm not wanting to make my parachute any less accessable.

Yeah Lin, keep focusing on that parachute. Right up there with your weak link and hook knife in the hierarchy of towing equipment.

Mike Lake - 2013/07/04 01:17:48 UTC

Just underneath. Parachute access is no real issue, not that I've had the need to use one.

Yeah, well you don't fly with state-of-the-art equipment.

That's one pretty exclusive club you belong to.

After five successful tosses you get a special pin from USHGA - and your instructor gets a framed certificate.

In your situation if all the effort had gone into making a safer tow system then parachute access and hook knives would not be an issue.

In the US it's considered to be in very poor taste to make safer tow systems and parachutes and hook knives are all the rage.

It is counterproductive to pay so much attention to what to do once upside-down at the expense of doing everything to avoid going upside-down in the first place.

ALL releases fail. Going upside down is just an inevitable, normal, manageable element of towing - a lot like Rooney Link pops every third tow.

A bit like ignoring faulty brakes but fussing and upgrading your airbags.

What color airbag tends to work best?

Lin Lyons - 2013/07/09 01:56:54 UTC

I made it into that air again.
Not all that high, 600 feet, but okay.
Was more than a little nervous.
(can't imagine why)
And quit early.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afd_uFKymhE

How 'bout posting at a resolution high enough for me to tell it's a person under a glider?

OH yeah, my hook knife is now tied to my harness.

I can't tell you how relieved I am to hear that.

And I had a hook knife lesson a few days ago.

Have you considered a...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1LbRj-NN9U


...how-to-recover-from-a-weak-link-pop seminar with Mitch Shipley?

Cuts way easier than I'd thought.

There ya go then!

I probably could have used it and saved all this bother.

I really wouldn't worry about it. I'm pretty sure you'll have plenty of other opportunities.

I do have to remember to detach my autorelease though, 'cause if it's still attached, and I've cut the other three lines, I can't reach it to either cut it or release it.

Maybe you could get Peter to design you an autorelease for your autorelease.

It's attached to the nose of the glider, so if pulling down on the bar is bad, I really don't want to know what pulling down on the nose would be.

Probably wouldn't be much worse than what could happen when it works the way it's supposed to.

NMERider - 2013/07/09 02:13:32 UTC

Welcome back!
My Benchmade Model 7 hook knife arrived in the mail today. I think I'll buy another extra. For $15 it's pretty cheap insurance to carry more than just one.

Why stop at two? With a hundred dollars you could have six hook knives...



...and still have ten bucks left over to put towards a parachute repack. You could be a one man Tiger Shark feeding frenzy and cut yourself out of any situation man and God could throw at you with such speed that onlookers would scarcely be able to credit their eyes.

01:15
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJGUJO5BjnA


098-20006

Then you could post the amazing video and make more sarcastic cracks about safety activist Tad Eareckson's...

...Rube Goldberg release contraption which wore out its welcome on The Davis Show and isn't allowed to be mentioned on The Jack Show.

You could be to hook knives what Jim Rooney is to flare timing and 130 pound test fishing line.

Think about it, dude. This is an amazing opportunity you have here.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29415
Holy Crap

Glenn Zapien - 2013/07/09 02:14:59 UTC

Key thing is to be sure you've got that release set to release.

Do ya think?

And check it again.

And don't bother checking your own connection to the glider. You just did a hang check five minutes ago.

Good flight...

Good flight? First XC, spot no stepper in a driveway within a wingspan of the powerlines... That was a GREAT flight!

...and good for you. Keep on keepin on.

Fer sure!

Paul Hurless - 2013/07/09 02:16:55 UTC

Keep in mind that the light weight hook knives that are most commonly used are really not designed for repeated use.

Good point. Just use one per tow then give it away to a needy paraglider pilot.

Practicing with them dulls them quickly and could leave them useless for when or if you really need it.

Gawd! The thought of being in a low level lockout with a useless hook knife really sends chills down my spine.

Mike Lake - 2013/07/09 02:22:24 UTC

Good on you for getting straight back into the air, that took some guts.

Always a great substitute for brains.

Naturally there've been some changes in light of your near death 'event'?

Have you missed the posts about never towing without a fresh hook knife safely secured to your harness?

Improved pre-flight routine?
Added a launch marshal?
Improved release?
Under/over system adopted?
Improved air to ground signals?
Old winch operator sacked?
New winch operator drilled to never take eyes off the glider?
Guillotine fitted to the winch?
Dumped the pitch limiter?

Or is it just the improved hook knife technique?

Improved hook knife technique.
Improved hook knife technique.
Improved hook knife technique.
Improved hook knife technique.
Improved hook knife technique.
Improved hook knife technique.
Improved hook knife technique.
Improved hook knife technique.
Improved hook knife technique.

You'll be fine.

And we'll be just fine watching your progress.

Fred Bickford - 2013/07/09 15:17:15 UTC

The increase in towing angle as the glider maxes out in height adds unnecessary risk.

Which would make platform the most dangerous flavor of towing known to man and aero the safest.

Maybe it's not a good idea to try and get as much altitude while scooter towing as possible when the air is active.

Yeah, you're much better off dealing with scooter tow emergencies down low. You won't have as far to fall if you can't get your hook knife or parachute out in time.

I could go on but I've already dignified this moronic post with a response way too much as it is.

Don Arsenault - 2013/07/09 15:51:06

Could you please explain this in more detail?

Wait until whatever he's on wears off a little before you ask him to start talking again.

I scooter tow, and this is news to me.

This is hang gliding and one man's opinion is just as valid as another's.

I guess if you're doing the whole tow with line over the bar, but I'd never want to be in that circumstance anyway.

But you don't use Mission's state-of-the-art equipment so get fucked.

Jim Gaar - 2013/07/09 16:26:12 UTC

For me personally...

Low and slow ground based tow - I'm OK with over the bar.

Whatever you wanna do on tow is perfectly OK with me, Jim.

Ground based tow over 50 feet AGL - 2 stage or under the bar.

What about over 50 feet MSL?

I would rather fight to keep the bar in until I had altitude.
This means I now risk a stall if I let go or have "trouble".
I accept that risk...YMMV

No, my mileage doesn't vary in the least. If there's a risk to you in any aspect of this sport I also accept it. Hell, I ENDORSE it.

Fred Bickford - 2013/07/09 17:28:42 UTC

Over or under the bar or what type of realease mechanism doesn't make any difference once the pulling force is beyond a certain angle.

Kinda like once the glider is locked out there's no disadvantage to taking a hand off the bar 'cept ten times more idiotic.

I haven't ever scooter towed yet, BTW!

Make sure you have a camera running when you do!

I've seen some paraglider towing in person and YouTube, of course.

I've watched a whole bunch of M*A*S*H episodes but I'm still a bit hesitant to make recommendations about army field hospital surgical procedures.

Jim Gaar - 2013/07/09 19:16:02 UTC

Sorry Fred, but that's not an accurate statement...

And you've always been such a stickler for accurate statements.

EVERY situation is different. EVERY single one.

Yeah the array is simply DAZZLING. Runs the gamut from A to B. That's why we need to run quite literally hundreds of thousands of pulls to determine the perfect standard aerotow release and weekend warrior muppets are totally incapable of grasping the complexities of these issues.

Where the forces are coming from and at what angle and pressure can make the difference between life and death.

And one just can't emphasize the pressure issue too much.

What the pilot does with those forces/angles and the situation at hand is what will make the difference. I call it training, experience and mentoring.

And I call you and your 130 pound Greenspot pin bender buddies totally full of shit and ten times too stupid to know when to shut the fuck up.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29415
Holy Crap

Lin Lyons - 2013/07/09 20:20:10 UTC

I note that no-one has made the distinction between ground based and aero towing.

You need a lighter weak link for aero because the tow pressures are less. Happy now?

However, maybe it's reasonable to assume that this recent discussion is all about land towing.
I also note that position hasn't been addressed.
When upright, over the bar is probably best.
Certainly one wouldn't want to take off, upright, with the tow line under the bar.

Why would anyone wanna take off upright with an empty dolly thirty feet from launch position?

That'd be inviting a stall.

You're flying a Hewett Link and a Birren Pitch Limiter and you're worried about a line under the bar inviting a stall?

Clearly a good operator could apply enough pressure to prevent the stall...

Yep. Whenever a good operator see's the glider being pitched up because of the tow pressure pulling up on the bar he'll immediately respond by applying more of it so the glider pilot will become fully aware of the issue and respond by pulling in - or cutting himself free with his hook knife or tossing his chute.

...but how much does one want to depend on the operator to compensate for one's problems / errors?

Totally.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8143/7462005802_bbc0ac66ac_o.jpg


http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8576/16673571861_3962427127_o.png
162-20727

Obviously.

I've been up to 1000' with the tow line over the bar, while prone.
The main reason is that I take off standing up, and "under the bar" while standing up is a bad idea.

Right. You use a dangerous launch to compensate for crappy dangerous tow launch equipment.

Everyone I've seen, who's used a cart, has the towline under the bar.

And Mission doesn't permit anyone to use a Koch two stage because it's not state-of-the-art equipment.

I've not directly seen the bridle attached to the nose and somewhere else, like the waist.
I don't know how the nose release would work.

Really well and quickly I would certainly hope, if you're connecting to the nose.

To some degree, I like the general idea, as it tends to keep the glider flying straight.
I do like that idea.

Were you this stupid and deranged BEFORE you started hang gliding?

Although it wouldn't have helped me at all. Would have hurt, in fact.

For myself, there are so many variables that I'm not in a position to compare them fairly.

Bull fucking shit.

There has been considerable criticism of the tow operator.

Too bad he's not Bobby Bailey - a fucking genius and the best tug pilot in the business. He can let somebody hook up behind HIM with an inoperable release, pull him into a fatal lockout, and come out looking like a hero.

I can assure you that my tow operator doesn't take his eyes off the flier.
Not for an instant.

What would be the point? There's no guillotine lever, machete, or hook knife anywhere on or around his winch to distract him from watching in horror.

Yes I used the triple loop release.
It's worked for me very well...

There's all kinds of crap that works for all kinds people in all kinds of situations very well. But if you've got a fuckin' functional brain you look at the incidents in which it didn't work well and you switch to something that works better.

...except when I messed it up.

- And your winch driver messed up by:
-- launching you with it
-- not having the Towing 101 equipment to deal with it
- Which would've been virtually impossible to do had you been using the proper equipment for the job.

And that's not going to happen again.

But let's spend another ten pages discussing hook knives and parachutes anyway.

Truth is that I was a bit nervous.
But that's just left over from the experience, not from worry about the release or the operator.

Yeah? Well I'm real nervous every launch I make - about my:
- releases
- bridles
- weak links
- cart
- towline
- driver
- tug's weak link
- self

And the more nervous I am the less likely I am to fuck up.

And I finally figured that I was nervous enough about my driver and tug's weak link that the risk wasn't worth it until those two issues were fixed. And it's taken about five years and Zack Marzec's selfless sacrifice to have started making any significant progress.

In fact, it was possible that I'd do some hill flying at Ed Levin park this week, but I decided that a couple more flights off the tow would be good.
It's easy to change one's mind when towing -- just pull the release.

With the release you're using you first gotta let go of the basetube with one hand. And you haven't begun to look at the fatality reports which indicate that that's not necessarily quite as easy as you "think" and have been taught.

Once you step off the hill, you're not changing your mind -- or at least not doing much about it.

Once your glider's been pulled forward by a string the way you're set up you have no safe option for aborting the tow and you've got another person and two pieces of string making decisions and limiting options for you and some of those issues CAN and others WILL kill you in various sets of circumstances and there won't be a goddam thing you or you're hook knife or parachute will be able to do about it.

And if your instruction didn't totally suck the first things you'd have learned would've been case studies of some of the classic splatters we've had in this sport.

Fuck - we've just had Zack Marzec snuffed by his pro toad bridle and Rooney Link 23 weeks ago this afternoon and you're saying:

Lin Lyons - 2013/07/03 21:19:38 UTC

The auto-release attaches to it very nicely and works almost too well. It occasionally releases when I'd rather not. But, better to release unneeded, than not release when I need it. I did learn that lesson.

Un fucking believable.
- Every one of those useless shits at Mission should be stood up against a wall.
- And have you been living in goddam cave?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29415
Holy Crap

Mike Lake - 2013/07/09 20:25:37 UTC

Fred Bickford - 2013/07/09 17:28:42 UTC

...once the pulling force is beyond a certain angle.

What 'angle' are you referring to, one of pitch or alignment?

What:
- planet is he from?
- do they:
-- use in the way of physics?
-- breathe in place of oxygen?

Don Arsenault - 2013/07/09 20:40:39 UTC

We are all talking about winch towing. Start with the line over the bar, and transition to under the bar at the appropriate height is what we're saying.

Once I've transitioned, if shit does hit the fan in every possible way, I have one line, connected to my chest to cut with a hook knife.

If the shit hits the fan in every possible way your hook knife might as well be back home in the closet. And I'll bet the number of times in the entire history of hang gliding that hook knives have been used to successfully abort tows can be counted on the fingers of one hand and successfully abort tows after Koch two stage malfunctions can be counted on the fingers of one buttock.

I've even seen a guy step towing, going downwind when suddenly he got tension, from behind him, causing him to dive straight at the ground!

He reached back, and hit the release and flew away without incident. I'll see if I can find the vid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKVsHAxRAcE

Tim Dyer - 2013/07/09 21:00:22 UTC

It doesn't make any difference upright or prone. With ground based towing, IMO, under the bar is the best way, again just my opinion.

Bullshit. It has absolutely nothing to do with anyone's goddam opinion. It's obvious reality / common sense.

KEEP IT STUPID SIMPLE...

And lemme tell ya sumpin' Rodie, Brad, Jonathan...
- if the whole fuckin' planet were using the same state-of-the-art remote surface tow equipment that Mission is...
- and Yours Truly had developed the Tad two stage release and was trying to get it into circulation...

...you useless goddam pigfuckers would be having field days with your idiot Rube Goldberg cracks and singing the praises of simple solutions like three-strings, Linknives, Birren Pitch Limiters, Rooney Links, and hook knives.

The Koch two stage is the most heavily engineered, complex, expensive release mainstream release on the planet. And:
- reports of issues with it are virtually nonexistent.
- everyone who uses it is a rabid defender.
- the only criticism it ever gets comes from stupid mouthy assholes who've never used it and derive endless joy from talking about the:
-- horrible injuries it certainly must cause in blown landings and crashes
-- best ways to deal with basetube interference and mount and safety hook knives to their harnesses

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29415
Holy Crap

sohrab - 2013/07/09 21:22:51 UTC
UAE

WOW so scary and terrible moment for the pilot, thats why i dont like towing launch, its also happen it to one of my friends and he has to quit hang gliding forever, i dont want to happen it to me too,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuSHh0nmKkQ

07-1412
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3900/14557433291_0d22597fd6_o.png


http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2926/14374222698_ed4d1c396d_o.png
11-1513
Hang Gliding Fail
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mX2HNwVr9g
andyh0p - 2011/04/24
dead
02-0325

05-0511

09-0919

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjB6ccVspR4

Lin Lyons - 2013/07/09 21:23:27 UTC

Don Arsenault - 2013/07/09 20:40:39 UTC

He reached back, and hit the release and flew away without incident.

Of course, activating any release would do the same.

Bullshit.
- Your release system - in addition to pulling aft - was stuffing the bar for you.
- You don't seem to get that:
-- not all release systems that require a hand to come off the basetube are equally operable
-- there's any advantage whatsoever in having a release system which allows you to blow tow with both hands on the bar

On occasion, I still land on my wheels and belly.
(my dirty parachute pocket can surely attest to that.)

Don't worry. Just spend some more time on the bunny hill perfecting your flare timing.

having had a cracked rib on occasion, I'm not thinking that I want a bar across my chest when I do belly in.

Don't sweat that so much. There are scores of support groups in every state in the nation for people who've cracked ribs bellying in with Koch two stages. The friendships you'll make will more than compensate for the pain and disruption of a cracked rib or two once or twice a flying season.

I'll grant that it does seem like I'm doing the, "My way is best and I'm not listening to anyone."

You sure don't seem to be doing any listening over here or looking at any actual incident data.

BUT, I did tie my hook knife on, and tried using it (with a different one) and it works better than I expected.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_n5B3-MIC4

Clearly I cannot change the way the business is run.

With a half decent lawyer you could own that business in about two or three weeks.

They have a very good safety record.

How the fuck do you know? If you check the fatality reports in the magazine Terry Mason and Zack Marzec are still doing just fine. And the only reason anybody knows about this one is because you posted it on Vimeo before Pat's brain kicked in enough to think about buying it from you for ten grand and erasing it.

It's probably not fair to blame them for a stupid mistake.

No. It's not fair to blame someone for a stupid mistake. But:
- not teaching and requiring hook-in checks
- putting people up on shit equipment and proclaiming it to be state of the art
- launching people without checking them
- using pitch limiters and flimsy fishing line to keep gliders from getting into too much trouble
- not having a top notch guillotine on a winch that sees ENORMOUS traffic
- substituting fairy tales for pilot education and training
are NOT stupid mistakes. They're chronic gross criminal negligence.

One that the pilot shouldn't have made.

You made a stupid mistake. We all have and we all will. But one stupid student mistake shouldn't put one as close to getting killed as you were.
Three other factors had to come together for things to become as consequential as that one was:
- the release you were using was entirely inappropriate for the job
- there was no check procedure from a second party
- the asshole responsible for the tension has no means of zeroing the tension in an emergency

Certainly when I'm flying, any mistake is mine.

Bullshit. If:

- assholes like Steve Wendt and Pat Denevan are gonna wave their USHGA Instructor of the Year certificates all over in everyone's faces then they have to claim credit for the training which puts Bill Priday off the cliff without his glider and Lin Lyons upside down with a locked release under nylon over the tow field.

- I qualify you as a Two and you go to a Two high site and under- or over-shoot the field that is MY fault.

- you as a Hang Four blow a loop, break your glider, and wrap your parachute we're looking at the opposite end of the gradient and that's a considerably different issue.

At some point, I ought to be held responsible for mistakes on the ground as well.

It's mistakes on the ground that are almost always the biggies - most commonly going up with a determination to land on ones feet. You're partially/largely responsible for hooking up the three-string wrong but I wouldn't credit you with more than about five percent worth of the responsibility for the incident.

I mean, if one wants perfect safety, maybe knitting, with dull needles, is appropriate.

We're not looking for perfect safety. We're mostly just trying to stomp out massive negligence and stupidity.

Mike Lake - 2013/07/09 21:25:20 UTC

Don Arsenault - 2013/07/09 20:40:39 UTC

Start with the line over the bar, and transition to under the bar at the appropriate height is what we're saying.

Exactly!
Best of both worlds. No base-bar interference on take off, no restriction when you top out and a quick slap to release one or both lines instantly at any time during the tow.

I've even seen a guy step towing, going downwind when suddenly he got tension...

"got tension"
Nice that someone is able to use the correct terminology.

"Pressure" is when you push down or squeeze something.
"Tension" is when you pull something along or apart. The two terms are not interchangeable they are opposites.

If three point is a synonym for two point why can't pressure mean the same as tension?

I can see how the use of "pressure" might have evolved. With a payout winch you apply "pressure" to a drum (brake pressure) but the term is now somewhat adopted even when it is completely incorrect. To say (for example) the weak-link failed with 300lb of pressure is nonsense.

But it helps keep the pilot population stupid. And that's the primary objective of The Industry and national organizations.

Tim Dyer - 2013/07/09 21:00:22 UTC

...again just my opinion.

This is not something that is decided by opinions.

EVERYTHING in hang gliding is decided by opinions. None of this theory crap that's been so stifling for conventional aviation.

If you foot launch (and you can't do that prone) with the line under the bar the tow force is pulling the bar up. You increase your chances of popping the nose at about the worst possible time. Over the bar eliminates this risk altogether.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27396
Scooter tow faillure... or Never Land On Your Face

Mitch Shipley - 2012/10/22 19:04:16 UTC

We engage in a sport that has risk and that is part of the attraction.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29415
Holy Crap

Tim Dyer - 2013/07/09 21:33:10 UTC

Mike,

We have had this discussion before. Over the bar, you have to release two times. Under the bar, you just keep AOA, for ten or so seconds. What is better? That IS AN OPINION.

Even if you had a clue what you were talking about on this it still wouldn't be a fucking OPINION. There would be ONE best option or, at least, one best option for a particular set of circumstances.

Don Arsenault - 2013/07/09 21:38:57 UTC

I'm not knocking your school...

You bloody well should be. They, for the purpose of the exercise, got this guy killed for - ignoring all other issues - want of a fifteen dollar hook knife. And they shouldn't be allowed to just waltz away and continue talking about their dedication to safety and state-of-the-art equipment.

...or your flying.

His flying was fine. So what? Who, besides Brian Horgan, gives a rat's ass?

You did an exceptional job of saving your ass!

He threw a parachute - through the nose wires - from a level stable glider with a fair bit of time and altitude to burn. Let's not go nuts.

We're just giving you options to think about.

He doesn't need options. He needs to be doing things right. Options are what almost got his ass killed and he's continuing to operate with a lot of the same defects.

And I bellied in on that landing, and still do on occasion myself. I have never felt the release.

You're not trying hard enough. I've heard from a lot of the top authorities in the sport that it crushes chests on a regular basis.

Ask your instructors about my instructor and his methods. His name is Michael Robertson, and I'm sure they know him.

And I'm sure they get along famously and wouldn't dream of criticizing any of their fellow professionals.

Again, no disrespect, and thanks for discussing this with us here.

And I, for one anyway, now understand a lot more about hook knives than I would have otherwise.

I'm so glad you're here to discuss it, and that's thanks to your training and ability to save your own ass.

Yeah, let's have a big round of applause for MISSION SOARING CENTER!

And let's never forget the how T** at K*** S****** damn near got Paul Tjaden and Russell Brown killed with his funky shit Tad-O-Link that didn't break when it was supposed to and allowed a lockout to occur.

Don Arsenault - 2013/07/09 21:43:32 UTC

You don't have to release twice. One slap will drop both lines. The bottom handle will hit the top handle. The bottom handle has a big paddle, or longer handle. When you hit the big bottom handle, both releases activate. Ideally, you have already released just the top one. The trick is in learning to activate just the top one when you want to transition without double releasing.

That's YOUR opinion.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29415
Holy Crap

Mike Lake - 2013/07/09 22:15:27 UTC

Sorry Tim, as I said, you cannot base this safety stuff...

...or anything else in aviation...

...on opinions. Under the bar and you have 200lb or so of line tension putting an upwards force on the glider's base-bar during the most critical ten seconds of a launch. This is a fact and I have seen the result if things don't go exactly to plan.

The two releases operate faultlessly as one unit when you want them to and having to make a first stage release at about 100 foot is no issue.

Mike Lake - 2013/07/09 22:25:39 UTC

Lin Lyons - 2013/07/09 21:23:27 UTC

It's probably not fair to blame them for a stupid mistake.

It is very noble of you to shoulder all the blame but you are not totally correct.

False nobility. Nobody ever got in trouble in hang gliding by calling himself a fuck-up. There's no social cost. Just the opposite, in fact.

What would REALLY be noble would to be to condemn Mission to the extent that they most justly deserve, call on them to clean up their fuckin' act, and risk losing flying opportunities, ratings, and social standing.

Tow launching is a team event.

No no no no...

- When it comes off OK it's because of the experience, skill, tried and true techniques and equipment, and general dedication to safety of the operation.

- When somebody slams in it's because he:
-- made no effort to release
-- just froze
-- thought he could fix a bad thing and didn't want to start over
-- tried to climb out too fast
-- failed to pull in quickly enough
-- wasn't using a fin
-- chose to fly in conditions way over his head

You have the steering wheel and someone else has the throttle. As a student I would guess you were paying for the launch, the use of the equipment, tuition and support. You should have had a few more failsafe systems available long before you got to use your parachute.

The fact you made the first mistake doesn't excuse the others.

The others weren't mistakes.

- Lin didn't deliberately connect his release in lock mode and he only made the mistake once.

- Pat's been very deliberately putting people up on crap equipment and worse, ignoring recommendations and advisories following fatality reports along with the most basic of globally recognized towing safety standards, and treating the hang gliding community with contempt by failing to participate in dialogues such as this one.

Lin Lyons - 2013/07/09 22:31:21 UTC

I've been a bit over 1000' when running, but I don't push it all that much.
I think I could get an extra 200' +/- if I really did push the bar out more.

I've seen a bit over 1500' when towing.

In Hollister, the tow line is about 4/5 of a mile, (to the turn around pully) I'm told.
I presume if it were longer then one could get higher.

If you're gonna keep on using that equipment then make doubly sure to go for all the altitude you can get.

Brad Barkley - 2013/07/09 22:43:33 UTC

If you have answered this, forgive me... but why don't you launch off a cart?

Because dolly launching is...

Lin Lyons - 2013/07/03 18:16:20 UTC

At Hollister, with the surface tow, on a foot launch, one can get up a bit over a thousand feet.
With the cart, one can get up another two to four hundred and sometimes even more.

However, typically the advanced pilots use the cart, because it's so much easier.
Maybe if they did a foot launch, they'd come closer to the normal cart launch altitude.

...easier, simpler, safer, more effective, more fun. And the goal of Mission is the precise opposite.

Lin Lyons - 2013/07/09 22:48:31 UTC

What happens is that the more advanced pilots get to use the cart.
I'm about there.
In fact, but for my mis-adventure, it's not unlikely that I'd be using it now.

But since you connected the loops of a three-string in the wrong order once you've demonstrated that you're obviously lacking in the flying skills necessary for dolly launching.

I've been told that it's much easier.

The flying skills necessary for the much easier dolly launching.

It seems reasonable to me that foot launch is appropriate when starting to tow.

Why? Because they had you foot launching when started to tow?

At the point where they're comfortable that the pilot isn't going to make mistakes, they use the cart.

Name a mistake a that a tow pilot could make that wouldn't be more likely to kill him foot launching...

http://vimeo.com/17743952

password - red
10-525
http://farm1.staticflickr.com/435/19224482318_2da3f48afe_o.png


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u51qpPLz5U0


...than...

http://vimeo.com/25631937


...dolly launching.

Try this... Go to an aerotow operation on a light air day and offer to pay for the lift ticket of anyone who wants to foot launch.

Seems I've put a significant dent in their confidence in me.

Fuck them. Those douchebags don't get to have confidence or lack thereof in anybody - EVER.