landing

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29372
Death in Texas

NMERider - 2013/06/26 14:52:47 UTC

Dave Hopkins - 2013/06/26 13:39:17 UTC

Young pilots today are no more ready to handle more performance and stronger conditions then pilots of 20 yrs ago.

Or 40 years ago. I have motorsports enthusiasts tell me more or less the same thing or similar regarding bikes that are so smooth, quiet and easy to handle that newer riders may find themselves going much faster than they know how to handle when approaching curves or unexpected hazards. The same for cars, boats and even guns for that matter. A lot of sporting equipment is so easy to handle and inspires so much confidence in the newer (I did not say young)...

THANK YOU!!! That "YOUNGER" pilot crap of Dave's drives me berserk.

...user that accidents happen and are no fault of the equipment. These accidents are due to the inexperienced and untrained user getting in over his or her head and not knowing how to handle the situation.

I have now either read or learned of so many reports of accidents involving the Sport 2 over the past five years that follow this pattern that I feel this is an appropriate time to speak up. I am not the first member of this forum to mention this issue either and so I do not claim to have any special insight other than common sense and a certain recollection for safety issues. I became concerned personally when some less experienced friends who also fly at Crestline wanted to fly a Sport 2 or similar wing downrange low enough to be far beyond safe glide-out altitude. My "Oh-Shit" meter went off and now this.

So I am still pushing the Sport 2 as a step-down glider for advanced and experienced pilots who want to relax and still fly X/C and at the same time inexperienced pilots who may own a Sport 2 see my videos of pushing the glider to the edge of its X/C envelope and want to do that too. I have since cautioned these pilots of the severe risks that are involved and the types of accidents that await them. I try to make suggestions as to how to safely learn to to push the glider farther and farther without taking any needless risks. That means treating every possible landing at familiar LZs as if were landing out in a place never seen before and with no windsocks or streamers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2Gd2kcyOes

http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7094/13952342741_f71f343877_o.png


http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7151/13952329131_03e535bc8b_o.png

- "Oh, that's so much more brainless than landing on your feet!"
- "That was beautiful!"
- "That was a GREAT landing, Rotor!"
- "Who cares if it's downwind!"
- "Ooh shit, that was awesome!"

If they can't do that with control and confidence on every landing then they are not ready to venture past half their L/D beyond the local club LZ. But people venture into new territory before they are ready every day. It's just part of human nature to do that. And it's up to us more experienced...

..."older"...

...pilots to be a mentor when asked or to volunteer our services without it coming off like a put-down or conceit. Some newer pilots tell me how they turn to the posts in the threads on this forum when they have no one else (in person) to turn to.

Where they only get to hear what Jack allows them to hear.

Sadly, over the past five years a lot of seasoned pilots have left and no longer post here.

And, of course, we no longer have the perspective of...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25302
Interview with Davis Straub, OzReport founder

Jack Axaopoulos - 2012/02/24 15:00:21 UTC

The "Extremist 1%" is not allowed on this site.

...The Extremist One Percent - which, big surprise, is the source of all rethinking, innovation, advancement.

So in Kevin's honor and memory let's be the best mentor we can to others who may request or require our guidance.

If you put people on fifteen to one gliders they're gonna push them to the point that they start getting in trouble. Ditto with twelve, ten, eight, six, and four to one gliders.

If you wanna reduce crash rates the biggest bang for the buck you're gonna get is...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27415
Friday the 19th with Hawks & Friends!

NMERider - 2012/10/24 21:47:05 UTC

I have to say that landing on the wheels is so much fun it's not funny.

...to get them landing on their wheels.

And having them practice every landing in the primary as if it were a landing in a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place is gonna do the precise opposite of developing a safer pilot population.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29372
Death in Texas

NMERider - 2013/06/26 03:55:20 UTC

But this is the second fatality in Texas in a year...

Hey Jonathan...

http://torreyhawks.org/r3/ENDNOFR.HTM

NMERider

I voted for Bob after spending a very enjoyable hour on the telephone with him a few months ago. My impression of Bob is that he is a level headed and enthusiastic supporter of both hang gliding and paragliding, and above all: SAFETY.

Ya notice the way Bob is NEVER involved in ANY of the discussions after - or, more importantly, BEFORE - one of these disasters?

Of course you got the IMPRESSION that he's an enthusiastic supporter of safety. His specialty is keying in on whatever it is that's important to whomever it is he's talking to, saying the things that person wants to hear, and giving the IMPRESSION that he's an enthusiastic supporter of whatever it is.

If your life's objective were to get Kagel opened up for Hang One aerobatics competitions you'd have spent a very enjoyable hour on the telephone with him and gotten the impression that he was a level headed and enthusiastic supporter of the same goal. And he'd have gotten your respect - and vote.

You might wanna look around a bit and pay attention to what some of the people who ACTUALLY care about some of these things are saying and doing.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29372
Death in Texas

Tom Lyon - 2013/06/27 01:37:54 UTC

I'm just getting started with just three mountain launches (LMFP). I'm planning to buy a Falcon 4. At the risk of asking an obvious question, I'd like to be clear on the best advice experienced pilots would give me to be on my way to making my goal of safe flying for the rest of my life (as long as I'm healthy, of course).

Fer starters... Stay the fuck away from Lookout. (Seems like you really know that already - if Lookout were doing any kind of job you wouldn't need to be hanging out on The Jack Show trying to get the education you're paying Lookout to provide.)

Would you recommend that I fly that Falcon until I can nail every landing (within feet of my intended target and on my feet)...

Yes. Stay with your Falcon until you've perfected your standup spot landings. Then start a fifteen hundred post topic so you can explain to the rest of us exactly how to do it.

...can fly well in varying conditions...

You don't NEED to fly well in varying conditions. You need to take off and land as safely as possible in all circumstances. And if you're trying to nail standup spot landings every flight...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21088
What you wish you'd known then?

Doug Doerfler - 2011/03/02 05:24:44 UTC

Nothing creates carnage like declaring a spot landing contest.

...you're doing the precise opposite of landing as safely as possible.

Your landing skills are NEVER gonna get any better than this guy's:

http://vimeo.com/36062225


And if you read what he says about landing...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27086
Steve Pearson on landings

Steve Pearson - 2012/03/28 23:26:05 UTC

I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.

...you'll notice that he really doesn't give a flying fuck about stopping on his feet - the way all of your instructors have you programmed.

...and that I have a mentor help me when I want to learn to land out?

Lemme be the first...

Always land in something bigger, flatter, smoother than the primary.

I know this may sound like a silly (obvious question), but I'd really like to receive your thoughts.

Where are you planning on landing that's gonna require or benefit from standup spot landings?

Kevin didn't just get killed because his standup spot landings weren't up to snuff. He got killed primarily because he missed over four thousand feet worth of airport where he could've very happily been landing just like THIS:

http://vimeo.com/69056841


for decades to come. And it's a whole helluva lot easier to land like that at over four thousand feet worth of airport than to do the kind of stupid bullshit you're talking about.

What makes you think that you won't be able to enjoy hang gliding unless you're taking stupid chances flying XC and landing on dangerous postage stamps every other weekend?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29372
Death in Texas

NMERider - 2013/06/27 15:19:47 UTC

I would suggest being able to nail the landings but would not be concerned about being any closer than 25 feet or so to the intended target.

I would suggest that the single thing in hang gliding most likely to get you crashed, hurt, crippled, killed is practicing nailing landings close to an intended target.

There's no question whatsoever that intending a target was the primary factor in Kevin O'Brien's death and I think there's a real good case to be made that prioritizing nailing the landing was a big secondary issue.

And twenty-five feet is a Hang Four requirement - less than a wingspan - and nobody can do it. And it's stupid and dangerous to give that radius ANY consideration. Make the safest landing you can for any given field and don't land in fields in which anything under a twenty-five yard radius could be the least issue.

LZ winds can...

...WILL...

...be switchy.

A good mentor can help to push your flight radius without getting in too deep or over your head.

And a halfway intelligent Two should be able to do that for himself.

Good judgement takes time to develop and is your best asset. Skill alone won't keep you safe.

Skill's fuckin' useless - or worse. Assume you don't have any so you won't ever put yourself in a situation in which you're relying it. Mother Nature can trash any margin skill can give ten times over in a heartbeat.

And when some aerotow jock advises you that your skills have advanced to the point at which you're ready to be pro toad piss on him and walk away.

It takes judgement and decision making.

God fuckin' dam right.

That way risk...

...which is any situation in which skill can be a critical asset...

...is managed and accidents can be avoided.

[Tad Eareckson]

P.S. Jackie and Jonathan...

Ditto in spades for people at both ends of the string in tow operations - surface and aero.

Robin Strid got killed just as dead behind Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey, the best tug pilot in the world, as Bill Bennett and Mike Del Signore did behind Dave Farkas - the worst tug pilot in the world.

Towing is all about conditions, equipment, judgment, decision making, common sense, and just solid Hang Two flying competence. Rooney's the only tuggie stupid enough to hint about how superior he is and all the competent back end guys understand that in the blink of an eye they can be on their ears and either really thankful that they're way high or really wishing they were.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29390
I'm not a PG basher but ....

Dontsink - 2013/06/27 12:51:47 UTC
Spain

Lots of PG pilots look at HG's with interest, like they were considering learning to fly a Hang Glider.
Then they watch experienced guys coming in to land and whacking and they just chuckle, shake their heads and forget about it.

[Zack C]

I'm skeptical of the electrocution verdict at this point...

He was found unconscious after the impact. I was told he stopped breathing after the EMTs arrived but they were able to revive him. Once stabilized he was airlifted from a local facility to a hospital in Houston I believe. Apparently he was cognizant enough at one point to give his wife's contact information. We were told he was doing OK and were hopeful, but maybe 1.5 hours later received the call that he died. Electrocution was the verdict of the attending physicians. I understand an autopsy was going to be performed but I haven't heard anything about results. All of this information is second or third hand.

Please explain why you think a hang two has any business flying an aircraft with no engine, marginal lift to drag performance, and limited control authority in conditions that were strong aloft (~20 mph) and surface winds around 13 mph with gusts.

I should state that in our flat region we rarely get light winds but can tolerate stronger winds than in the mountains. I wouldn't even consider going to Lookout, for example, with the winds present here last Sunday, but given our low mechanical turbulence, relatively mellow thermals, and dolly-facilitated launches, such conditions are not a big deal here and we commonly fly in them.

That said, a 20 mph wind aloft will cause the same drift regardless of terrain or turbulence, so the problem of allowing oneself to get too far downwind of the primary LZ is as much an issue here as anywhere. I did not think Kevin would make this mistake but he usually declined to fly in higher winds so I'm not sure how much experience he had in such conditions.

I was not sure of Kevin's rating at the time. We had a couple of pilots get S2s recently having just obtained their H3s and I thought Kevin was one of them. It's rare that I see instructors sell pilots S2s until they're H3s, but I have seen them make exceptions depending on the abilities of the pilot.

USHPA's H2 recommended operating limitations for wind:

Should fly only in smooth winds of 18 mph or less and gusty winds to 11 mph.

http://www.ushpa.aero/documents/sop/sop-12-02.pdf

The tug pilot stated the following:

The launch crew, the pilot and the tug pilot felt conditions were suitable otherwise the tow wouldn't and couldn't have taken place. The tow was uneventful and we towed to 3000'agl. The wind strength will shut down tow operations before reaching the threshold for hang gliders because the tug becomes difficult to ground handle in strong winds.

Kevin's launch looked fine.

Zack

[Tad Eareckson]

I became a whole lot less skeptical about the juice being a factor at:

The top wire from the kingpost to the nose was broken and there were electrical burn marks at the top of the kingpost and near the base of one of the uprights, indicating likely pathway for a shock current.

The launch crew, the pilot and the tug pilot felt conditions were suitable otherwise the tow wouldn't and couldn't have taken place...

Yeah, I meant to say something about aerotowing being pretty idiot proof as far as gliders getting into conditions over their heads. The tug drivers are all highly skilled and have a lot of time under their belts and if conditions have gotten to the point at which it's unsafe for a glider to fly and land they got unsafe for the tow to get off a long time before.

Reminds me of skating on the Chesapeake and its rivers and creeks. The tide broke up and melted the ice along the shore so if you could get on it, it was safe - to some extent anyway.

Really too bad about this one. Didn't realize he was recovered alive, in reasonably good shape, and with a hopeful prognosis for maybe a full recovery. As is often the case, a few things coming together and lining up wrong...
- bit of wind
- missed briefing
- drifted out of range
- airport fixation / failure to bail
- lousy Plan B option/choice
- powerlines in the wrong place and five feet too low / glider five feet too high

[Steve Davy]

Zack C - 2013/06/29 21:29:46 UTC

I wouldn't even consider going to Lookout, for example, with the winds present here last Sunday, but given our low mechanical turbulence, relatively mellow thermals, and dolly-facilitated launches, such conditions are not a big deal here and we commonly fly in them.

Zack C - 2013/06/25 04:59:58 UTC

The thermal activity combined with mechanical turbulence from the wind made for very rowdy conditions near the ground - some of the worst I've seen at Columbus.

Those are NOT hang two conditions. He should have been grounded.

[Tad Eareckson]

OK, ground him.

Put him up tomorrow when it's SSE at five and glassy smooth at the surface and ten aloft. He hooks a light thermal, dopes off, and has drifted too far by the time it quits. He still ends up coming in from the same direction trying to park in the same field with, due to his reduced headwind / increased groundspeed, even more invisible powerlines in front of him that he's gonna hit harder.

P.S. And his bail and run range is greatly reduced so now that area becomes his only option a lot higher.