http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=9084
Aerotow problem/question:Properly washed, I think
John Caldwell - 2008/10/27 21:22:11 UTC
Augusta, Georgia
Last week I had a problem aerotowing. This was about my twentieth aerotow and the second time for a weak link break.
Ten percent weak link failure. Twice your life has been saved in just twenty tows. I shudder to think of the alternative.
I launched from the cart just fine but when the tow plane took off, it seemed like he just popped up quickly above me...
The reason it SEEMED LIKE he just popped up quickly above you was 'cause he DID just pop up quickly above you.
- i.e., I was clearly too low in what seemed like an instant.
Actually... He was CLEARLY TOO HIGH in what WAS an instant.
I eased out the control bar but kept meeting resistance to gaining altitude.
Yeah. So what you shoulda done was pull in to protect yourself and send a message to the dumb sonuvabitch that he had a glider he was supposed to be towing behind him.
I think it was prop wash that I couldn't get through.
Nah. It was all incompetence spewing off the front end.
I did have some oscillations, although I don't think too bad.
Sounds a bit like the Jamie Alexander / Frank Spears fatality.
Just about the time we cleared the end of the field and as I was trying hard to get even with the tow plane...
The place to get even was back on the ground. Try pissing in his beer.
...the weak link broke.
How many Gs? (Just kidding.)
I pulled in, turned and came around with enough altitude to make a full box and upwind landing without incident.
No. You HAD an incident. Two of them, as a matter of fact.
We ended up replacing the weak link...
With another one just like it which will also break for no reason in a similar potentially deadly situation - like Jeremiah's.
...and relaunched, this time as per the tow pilot with about a third VG (have not done that previously)...
- Right. The blown tow was YOUR fault because you didn't use the proper VG setting.
- If you had been flying a Falcon how much VG do you think he'd have had you pull on?
- Tell me how the VG setting was the slightest bit relevant to any issue with the first tow.
- How come you weren't trapped below the tug with the VG off on any of your previous tows?
- And that way he doesn't hafta apologize for doing a crappy job and putting you in a dangerous situation.
...with a smooth uneventful tow.
Did it seem like he just popped up quickly above you this time? Maybe there's some kind of correlation going on.
Obviously the best would have been not to let the tow plane get above me.
No. The best would have been to have had a half decent tug driver.
I am wondering if anyone has any other advice about this situation.
See above.
Does this sound like prop wash?
More like incompetence, apathy, buck passing.
What is the best approach to get to correct towing relation/altitude with the tow plane once too low or should I have just stayed as I was?
The correct towing relation/altitude is wherever you are under control with a good reserve of airspeed. Understand that you can NEVER be too low - just too slow.
Damien Gates (Tex) - 2008/10/27 21:28:54 UTC
Brisbane
Hi John,
Prop wash may have some effect on not being able to penetrate upwards but your real problem sounds like speed. If you are so low that you are in the wash and can not get up then the tug pilot should realize (where is the station in his mirror) this and nose over a bit to get DOWN to you.
Had no business going up in the first place.
This has two effects: first he reduces height to bring the tug down to you and second it increases his and your speed giving you the energy to get back up where you should be. Once there resume tow as normal.
Which it would've been all along if your driver had been doing his job.
If you are low AND slow YOU can not really do much about it except go along for the ride.
Sure you can. You can become lower and FAST. Fuck the ride.
Prop wash will cause turbulence and beat you down a little but with sufficient speed you should be able to punch through it.
-
"Love the lift you're with."
Don't be a passenger.
Precisely. But that's not how things work here.
Bill Reynolds - 2008/10/27 21:43:04 UTC
John, this has been my experience:
First, I find that about half VG is good on the T2 or the Discus to keep bar pressure low enough to be comfortable, yet still have enough roll authority for quick corrections.
Second, if I get too low or high I can quickly and aggressively, but smoothly adjust pitch to get back on track. Roll corrections take more precise inputs to not overcorrect and start PIO'ing. But with pitch, overcorrecting is not as much of a problem.
You probably already know all that. I never found myself in your situation I don't think, where I was low and unable to correct because of prop wash. If the keel attach point was far back close to the hang point then that might have contributed to holding the nose down.
- Yeah John, you should move the attachment point forward a couple of inches to let the nose come up a bit.
- I seem to have missed the part about the nose being held down.
Have you already considered that?
Gimme a fuckin' break.
John Caldwell - 2008/10/27 23:48:39 UTC
Thank you, guys. Wilburleft, I think that the tow attach point just about right on the keel (although I was thinking if it were too far back, it would then try to nose up).
Wouldn't do a whole helluva lot for your yaw stability either.
The thing I needed to hear is what you have said, that it is ok to attempt to correct pitch issues "aggressively".
Yeah John, maybe you could also get some words of wisdom from Cragin...
You are not hooked in until after the hang check.
...for flying Whitwell.
Again, I understand, within reason.
Yeah John, everything's within reason - until Murphy throws another monkey wrench in your direction.
I had been leery of pushing out, but did build up, and finally to a level that culminated in the weak link break.
curly_cue - 2008/10/28 01:08:44 UTC
Duluth, Georgia
If you are so low that you are in the wash and can not get up then the tug pilot should realize (where is the station in his mirror) this and nose over a bit to get DOWN to you.
"As the glider pilot, you are the final authority and responsible for the safety of the flight. FAA regulation part 91. Anyone not willing to accept this responsibility should not be a part of this sport."
This response is from my hubby who is a CFI/MEI/II and a tug pilot.
- A tug driver AND a total asshole! Who'da thunk?
- Who's your hubby and how come he's not engaging in this discussion himself?
He tows me regularly and will always do everything possible to help the glider pilot, however if you get low, it is your responsibility to fix it. If you can't, you should release. You are in control of your own destiny.
-
H2
WW Falcon 3
AT FL CL FSL
As the glider pilot, you are the final authority and responsible for the safety of the flight.
Bullshit.
Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
1974
"A bad flyer won't hurt a pin man but a bad pin man can kill a flyer." - Bill Bennett
- If you don't have control over the towline then you're not the only person with authority over and responsibility for that flight.
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question
Jim Rooney - 2008/11/24 05:18:15 UTC
Well, I'm assuming there was some guff about the tug pilot's right of refusal?
Gee, didn't think we'd have to delve into "pilot in command"... I figured that one's pretty well understood in a flying community.
It's quite simple.
The tug is a certified aircraft... the glider is an unpowered ultralight vehicle. The tug pilot is the pilot in command. You are a passenger. You have the same rights and responsibilities as a skydiver.
It's a bitter pill I'm sure, but there you have it.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=16026
safety
Mark Frutiger - 2010/03/03 20:51:32 UTC
Jim Rooney answered you. Try to find someone more qualified.
- Yeah. I'm going with Head Trauma. You can't find ANYONE more qualified. (Mostly 'cause USHGA and the Flight Park Mafia are really good at making sure anyone more qualified gets his microphone cut.) Since when did a passenger have any authority or responsibility?
FAA regulation part 91.
- I got news for ya. Hang gliding ain't regulated under Part 91. As a matter of fact it ain't regulated at all. It's controlled by a bunch of stupid thugs who do and ignore and violate the crap out of whatever the fuck they feel like.
- Here's some of what it says in Part 91:
Aircraft Requirements
a. No person may operate an aircraft that is towing a glider
-1. unless the aircraft is equipped with a tow hook and release control system that meet the applicable standards of airworthiness, and
-2. The towline used has a breaking strength not less than 80 percent of the maximum certificated operating weight of the glider, and not more than twice this operating weight.
b. However, the towline used may have a breaking strength more than twice the maximum certificated operating weight of the glider if-
-1. A safety link is installed at the point of attachment of the towline to the glider with a breaking strength not less than 80 percent of the maximum certificated operating weight of the glider and not greater than twice this operating weight; or
-2. A safety link is installed at the point of attachment of the towline to the towing aircraft with a breaking strength greater, but not more than 25 percent greater, than that of the safety link at the towed glider end of the towline and not greater than twice the maximum certificated operating weight of the glider.
We don't have those protections from people like your hubby in hang gliding - as John just demonstrated.
- Sailplanes tow under proportionally less tension than do hang gliders - and at speeds a lot further away from stall.
- Sailplanes - for all intents and purposes - don't lock out. Hang gliders do and sometimes there's not a goddam thing the glider pilot can do to stop them.
So we need all the help we can get from the guy up front. But if we can't get that we at least need him not to fuck up any more than absolutely necessary.
Anyone not willing to accept this responsibility should not be a part of this sport.
- I can name you seven hang glider pilots who were killed because tug drivers did shit jobs. Name me one tug driver who got so much as a scraped knee 'cause he was screwed over by a glider.
- When was the last time you heard about a tug getting locked out?
- There are lotsa different takes on who should and shouldn't be a part of this sport.
- I don't ever again want an asshole like that on the other end of any string that's pulling me though the air.
He tows me regularly and will always do everything possible to help the glider pilot, however if you get low, it is your responsibility to fix it.
- Did you read John's post? John did not "get low" - his driver got high.
- The ONLY way a glider can "get low" is to pull in and dive. I have never once in my entire life heard about anyone doing that.
- Seeing as how tugs are generally happier flying faster than gliders, people generally have enough trouble pulling in enough just to stay level - particularly at launch - which is the situation under discussion.
- John's driver was the one who fucked up and it was HIS responsibility to fix it.
- Even if it had been John's fault for getting low and he had been slowing his glider to get back in position how much skin would've been coming off his driver's nose to dive, speed up, and help him?
If you can't, you should release.
- Right. If you're low, stalling, close to wake turbulence, and not getting any help from your driver you should just release.
- Did you ever wonder why when Bill Bennett and Mike Del Signore were low, stalling, close to wake turbulence, and not getting any help from their driver they didn't just release?
- Do you know what happened to Bill Bennett, Mike Del Signore, Arlan Birkett, and Jeremiah Thompson when they were low, stalling, close to wake turbulence, and not getting any help from their driver when the front end weak links blew?
- This is the kind of crap you're learning from your CFI/MEI/II tug driver hubby?
You are in control of your own destiny.
DAMN STRAIGHT! That's what I tell myself right before every aerotow launch. Fuck you, Tug Driver! Fuck you, Mother Nature! I have this aviation thing DOWN PAT! I'm in TOTAL CONTROL of my own destiny! BRING IT ON!!! YEEEHAW!!!!!
Bill Bryden - 2000/02
Dennis Pagen informed me several years ago about an aerotow lockout that he experienced. One moment he was correcting a bit of alignment with the tug and the next moment he was nearly upside down. He was stunned at the rapidity. I have heard similar stories from two other aerotow pilots.
Socrates Zayas - 2008/10/28 02:06:16 UTC
Miami Beach
Harsh but TRUE!!! Thanks Curly_Cue
Just what we need. Words of wisdom on aerotowing from DocSoc.
let me tell you if you get hit by prop wash you know it, thus it wasn't prop wash... Sounds like you have an issue with pushing out?
No, he has a crappy tug driver. We all do.
But that's OK cause you only have 20 ATs under your belt and probably were ingrained with the learning lesson that pushing out is "BAD" and it is! except for in AT.
Idiot.
Fact is that pushing out (enough) would have slowed the tug and forced him to slow down or have brought you up to him... It wouldn't have cause a WL brake, steady pressure won't only a quick jerky motion would.
Idiot.
Just about the time we cleared the end of the field and as I was trying hard to get even with the tow plane the weak link broke.
This may have been cause by a number of things, but definitely something slacked and then pulled the WL to break on you, you may want to run your finger on the inside of your primary and see if it's smooth or if there is a rough spot caused sometimes buy oxidation (rust). This can be filed clean on occasion.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=6911
Sunday flying at Florida ridge. -
Socrates Zayas - 2008/05/21 23:53:23 UTC
The cycle was nice, nothing out of the ordinary, but just as the tug flew over the fence line of the orchard the weak link broke. It was as if it didn't even break - Eric and I both thought it was a release malfunction.
That was five months and six days ago. And you weren't playing with a full deck BEFORE the concussion. Are you sure it's a good idea for you to be spewing out advice on this subject?
We ended up replacing the weak link and relaunched, this time as per the tow pilot with about 1/3 VG (have not done that previously), with a smooth uneventful tow.
The pilot thought to actually talk to you? great Flight park where was this?
Idiot.
What is the best approach to get to correct towing relation/altitude with the tow plane once too low or should I have just stayed as I was?
Both these question answered above
Idiot.
And...
Remember: it is almost impossible to stall under aerotow. The induced thrust vector makes the glider trim at a higher attitude. It is OK to push way out; you will climb, not stall.
Warmth,
-DocSoc
Warmth doesn't cut it in this sport, Doc. For the most part, it's actually a rather bad thing.
Damien Gates - 2008/10/28 08:22:10 UTC
This response is from my hubby...
Harsh and untrue IMHAHO. Maybe if you want to perpetuate your towing operations as just the 'dope on the rope'. A good AND safe operation involves 'co-operation'. Sure if you are not happy with it then GET OFF THE LINE. But get behind a tug pilot who has the opportunity and ability to assist in towing effectively, efficiently, and safely AND DOESN'T, then he has no place being a tug pilot.
Curly could you please tell me what is a "II"? Also does your hubby fly HG? Quite frankly I find the statement "if you get low it is your responsibility to fix it" very alarming.
Sorry Tex. I go WAY beyond that.
John, I find that if you are pushing out to get up, the point you are pushing out too far is very much like a progressive stall in normal flight. The glider starts to feel 'mushy' and may even wing walk a little due to tow forces vis a vis stall - If you are low and at that point where the glider feels 'mushy' and in the prop wash better to get off fast, especially if the tug pilot will not help. Beware the low slow tow... lockout is imminent and quick!
- Do not EVER get in that position.
- If your tug driver and you have put you in that position DO NOT get off fast. Getting off fast was what killed Arlan and Jeremiah. Stuff the bar - eliminate the possibility of a stall while you're greatly reducing the likelihood of a lockout. Then get off after you have some speed.
Craig Hassan - 2008/10/28 09:24:07 UTC
Ohio
Almost all tug pilots I have flown behind will try to help you out. However, I have flown behind one or two that act almost like you are not even back there. Interesting rides for sure.
The point being, you are the pilot in command of the glider being towed. You have the responsibility of maneuvering your aircraft behind the tug in a safe manor. If you can not, you have no place being behind the tug!
Yeah Craig. That pretty much eliminates everyone who's done more than a dozen tows in good conditions.
A good tug pilot will do everything he can to keep you in position. When I towed behind Carlos at Wallaby Ranch, I could have taken a nap and he still would have had me at 2000'. He's just about that good.
What did he have in the way of a weak link at his end?
Other places and a few tug pilots, well some of them had me pinning off at 1000' just to be done with the tow!
And you'd have been perfectly OK with any of those guys no matter what thermal shit you got hit with down low.
CFI/MEI/II
Certified Flight instructor
Multi Engine Instructor
Instrument instructor.
Damien Gates - 2008/10/28 10:51:03 UTC
WOW I am shocked.... really totally shocked, either I am being completely misunderstood or my experience and opinions (and those of who I tow with and behind) on what towing operations are and should be has been wrong for many years. I retreat and surrender. To continue seems crazy. I feel like I am on some weird trip. I mean really... what does Instrument instruction have to do with aerotow of hang gliders...
Welcome to Rooneyland.
Michael Bradford - 2008/10/28 11:05:32 UTC
Rock Spring, Georgia
Like so many other things, that might depend on whose tug your hang glider is trying to follow...
Craig Hassan - 2008/10/28 11:11:48 UTC
WOW I am shocked...
I agree with you on what they
should be! Any
good tug pilot will react almost as fast as the glider pilot to help keep the glider in position. A
good tug pilot is not hard to find. (at an established tow field) 99% of the tugs I've ridden behind were piloted by outstanding men and women who do everything they can, with in a safe margin, to keep you behind them.
- Whoa! John flies at an established tow field and still gets a crappy driver. What are the odds!
- Name ONE who will let me fly with a one and a half G weak link.
I was just agreeing with curly (or her husband) that it is the sole responsibility of the glider pilot on tow is to stay in position.
Of course you were. Asshole.
If you get out of position you should rely only on yourself to correct the situation. If the tug pilot comes to the rescue, great, but he is pretty busy flying his aircraft, and may not be in the position to fix things.
How busy was John's driver? What was keeping him busy the first flight that wasn't keeping him busy the second?
So don't count on him saving your arse!
Got that right. Best to count on him doing the precise opposite.
(Just like you don't count on a launch director to make sure you harness is hooked to the glider. You hope he will see it, but I wouldn't bet my life on it!)
So what DO you bet your life on? A hang check? (I hope.)
But get behind a tug pilot who had opportunity and ability to assist in towing effectively, efficiently and safely AND DIDN'T, then they have no place being a tug pilot.
I agree with you there. If the tug pilot could have helped, but didn't (because he didn't want to, or didn't feel like it) then he/she should not be a tug pilot and that operation is not a safe one.
Oh. So the safety of an operation actually IS partially dependent upon the guy controlling the glider's thrust near the surface. And all this time I've been thinking that the safety of a flight was entirely in the hands and the responsibility of the guy hanging under the glider.
Damien Gates - 2008/10/28 11:46:32 UTC
OK, then. We seem to be closer to the same page. I agree with you but would just like to add that when you are low and slow this is the simplest predicament for a tug pilot to assist you to rectify. Further, the rectification in no way would decrease the tug pilot's ability to look after his aircraft. On the contrary, the scenario I described for this predicament should only assist both pilots to fly their aircraft safely during the tow.
Sorry Tex, we just don't do things that way over here.
Craig Hassan - 2008/10/28 12:12:11 UTC
Indeed!
To go along with the mutual concept. When I was first starting to AT I was instructed by the tug pilot to only correct for 1/2 the distance I thought I was out of position. The tug pilot will be correcting the other half. If I found myself 10 degrees to the right of the tug, correct for 5 degrees. that way I don't overshot as the tug comes back to me.
I still do this (though I do not get so far out of position nowadays ), and it works with almost every tug and pilot I've been behind. Some more than others.
How was it working for John?
curly_cue - 2008/10/28 13:44:17 UTC
Whoa, sorry, I didn't mean to ruffle the feathers out there. Craig put it better than I did perhaps.
Yes, the tug pilot will do everything he can to assist you (most of them anyway). I hear stories everyday about "I had to go get this guy 6 times!".
- So who signed that guy's AT ticket?
- And if he can't do the job why does he still have that ticket?
- And why does the guy who signed the guy's ticket still have his ticket?
But it is still the pilots responsibility. You can't count on the tug saving you every time.
Who do you think is flying with that expectation? "Oh, I don't really feel like doing anything with the bar so I'll just wait here for my driver to come pick me up." Right.
He spends 50%-75% of his time watching his rearview mirror, but he does occasionally have to look forward to fly.
- What percentage of the time was John's driver watching the mirror?
- What was going on in front of the tug that was so important that he was dedicated a hundred percent of his time watching it?
You have to always be responsible for yourself whether or not he is going to help.
So what should John have been doing that he wasn't?
And yes, he is also a hg pilot.
Figures.
I just threw his credentials in there to give you the idea that he's not some run of the mill, non-licensed (illegal now anyway) guy that learned to fly a tug.
- And those credentials bear on his competence as a tug driver how?
- So I would automatically be a lot better off with this anonymous hubby of yours than some run-of-the-mill, non-licensed, illegal now anyway guy who learned to fly a tug?
As the glider pilot, you are the final authority and responsible for the safety of the flight. FAA regulation part 91. Anyone not willing to accept this responsibility should not be a part of this sport.
- Thanks, but those were all the credentials I needed to hear.
John Caldwell - 2008/10/28 14:19:55 UTC
Thank you, guys.
curly_cue, I never did feel that I got to a point of being unsafe for me or the tug pilot although I kept an "itchy trigger finger" for the release.
- Yeah John, I read lotsa reports in which the pilot never felt things had gotten to a point of being unsafe - until it was too late.
- Did you ever consider that you might have ended up in a situation in which an "itchy trigger finger" would be about the last thing you'd wanna have in the equation?
I suspect that I could have gone all the way to 2000 feet for the minimal impact that my situation seemed to be having, but I knew by the book I was too low and was trying to correct it. I would not have been surprised if the pilot had dipped down to help, but I think he was simply trying to go smooth and let me fix it.
Yeah, he craps on your carpet and you're supposed to clean it up.
(It may even be that he did dip down and I didn't see it or capitalize on it). I think he must not have realized that I was meeting some kind of resistance barrier (? prop wash?) to ascending to level with him. I didn't even think about that possibility until someone suggested it to me later.
Yeah. Always remember that whenever anything bad happens at a tow operation it's all the glider pilot's fault. That'll help a lot when you're making statements for inclusion in a fatality report.
It seems to me the main thing to make sense of all of what I experienced. The tug pilots (at LMFP) have been great and most always open to a quick feedback session, which at this point I am interested in also.
- Lookout! Thank you!
- Is that also where cue's hubby tows?
- So how come you're having to discuss it here?
Jim Gaar - 2008/10/28 15:55:22 UTC
Roeland Park, Kansas
We always told towed pilots that the first 500 feet belonged to the tug pilot.
- Of course you did, Jim. That way your ass is totally covered no matter how badly you fuck somebody over.
- So when you're towing a roll unstable aircraft down in the kill zone below two hundred feet you're totally focused on yourself.
- But after you've gotten to an altitude at which he's pretty much bulletproof THEN you can afford an occasional glance in the mirror.
http://ozreport.com/9.008
2005 Worlds
Davis Straub - 2005/01/10
As he took off his left wing was dragging. Bobby Bailey, the best tow pilot in the business, moved to the right into get further into the wind, and Robin got his left wing up and flying as he lined up behind Bobby.
Then Robin shifted off to the left again getting his right, upwind wing, high again. He was seen reaching for his release.
He kept doing a wing over to the left and dove straight into the ground from about 50 feet. He was killed immediately.
- So how come Bobby can walk and chew gum right off the deck but you can't?
They have enough to do to keep themselves safe. I would never "expect" a tug to drop down to me in that first 500 feet.
Likewise, Jim. The lower one's expectations of you assholes the less surprised he's gonna be in the last couple of seconds before impact.
Get up and hold your 10-15 feet of altitude (with a Dragonfly-not a trike) and be ready to climb with the tug...or get off!
Yeah. If you're low off the runway and low down in all the crap behind a slow tug just get off.
That rule kept us accident free for over 600 tows (Then we sold out).
- Big Fucking Deal.
- What about incidents?
- Pretty much all you motherfuckers are sellouts.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=9084
Aerotow problem/question:Properly washed, I think
BJ Herring - 2008/10/31 17:56:26 UTC
For reference, once we were a good 1500-2k off the ground, in training, Dustin took us down to the prop wash.... (Don't do this for practice even)... but at least now my instincts know that I NEVER want to get in that again... It's like a jackhammer is beating on your nose plate... really really obvious!
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=9084
Aerotow problem/question:Properly washed, I think
Jim Rooney - 2008/12/11 18:45:01 UTC
His scenario is pretty common. Pilot leaves cart, pulls in and maintains altitude then fails to follow tug up.
Oh. He failed to follow the tug up.
So the business about the tug seeming to pop up quickly above him, easing the bar out without effect, getting kicked around in wake turbulence, and blowing his weak link when he redoubled his effort was just a face saving invention which unfairly besmirched the reputation of an unnamed member of the Sacred Brethren who - as we all know - can do no wrong.
So how come he only seems to have had these problems on the ONE TOW in which the tug seemed to pop up quickly above him?
Gets into oscillations and while struggling with them attempts to climb. Breaks weaklink.
- That's not what he said, Jim.
I did have some oscillations, although I don't think too bad. Just about the time we cleared the end of the field and as I was trying hard to get even with the tow plane the weak link broke.
- Why did the weak link break?
- What would've happened if the tug had been a little slower and he had been a little lower and nosed up a little higher when the weak link blew?
- Right. The same thing we're doing now - painting him as an asshole and taking the focus off the tug driver and the weak link.
Yup, the first 500ft are mine.
Yeah, let's take a little inventory...
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=23813
Threaded bridle system
Jim Gaar - 2011/05/26 15:44:33 UTC
Beyond that I'm a Rooney follower...
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22660
What can be learned from this "scooter" towing accident?
Mitch Shipley - 2011/01/31 15:22:59 UTC
Enjoy your posts, as always, and find your comments solid, based on hundreds of hours / tows of experience and backed up by a keen intellect/knowledge of the issues when it comes to most things in general and hang gliding AT/Towing in particular. Wanted to go on record in case anyone reading wanted to know one persons comments they should give weight to.
You have your own army of mindless zombies.
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links
Jim Rooney - 2007/07/19 14:50:52 UTC
And yes, get behind me with a "strong link" and I will not tow you.
Jim Rooney - 2007/07/22 22:30:28 UTC
I've heard it a million times before from comp pilots insisting on towing with even doubled up weaklinks (some want no weaklink). I tell them the same thing I'm telling you... suck it up. You're not the only one on the line. I didn't ask to be a test pilot. I can live with your inconvenience.
You own our weak links.
Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 13:47:23 UTC
Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.
You own our towlines - but will happily give them to us whether we want them or not.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22308
Better mouse trap(release)?
Jim Rooney - 2010/12/16 18:47:05 UTC
A few years ago, I started refusing to tow people with home made gear.
You own our releases.
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question
Jim Rooney - 2008/11/24 05:18:15 UTC
Well, I'm assuming there was some guff about the tug pilot's right of refusal?
Gee, didn't think we'd have to delve into "pilot in command"... I figured that one's pretty well understood in a flying community.
It's quite simple.
The tug is a certified aircraft... the glider is an unpowered ultralight vehicle. The tug pilot is the pilot in command.
You own our gliders.
You are a passenger. You have the same rights and responsibilities as a skydiver.
It's a bitter pill I'm sure, but there you have it.
You own US.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up
Richard Bryant - 2009/11/05 14:11:27 UTC
New Jersey
Tad,
If you acted there as you do here, perhaps they got tired of being told how to run their operation.
Just a guess but probably the trigger that got you booted is when you went to the FAA with your draft proposal for more regulation of the sport...yeah, that was a great idea on your part!
And you own the public airports and the FAA.
Makes it kinda hard to do the Christmas shopping. Maybe a brain and a pair of testicles?
Nah, that would clash too much. Sorry, I got nuthin'.
Try to keep up. Your tugger generally REALLY wants to help you, and will do all that he can to do so...
Yeah, I'd just as soon have the motherfucker just doing his job, mostly from zero to two hundred feet, and - beyond that - not helping me at all.
...but he's got trees to stay out of as well.
Five hundred foot trees? What if there are no five hundred foot trees? What else is so threatening to the tug that makes it dangerous to maintain proper speed and position?
Dave Farkas - 1996/08/02
The trike was now being pulled to the left toward a tree line and I felt we were now in real trouble. I either pulled the release handle again or it was still opened from before, but the line still did not release. I didn't want to try this, but I thought if I reduced power a little, I might be able to lighten the pressure for Mike and Bill and maybe they could get the glider back under control, so I came back on the power some. I waited a short period and then powered up to try and force a weak link break or make the tow line release. At this time the trike was again being pulled what seemed very close to the tree line. I kept up power to try to pull us away when either the weak link on the trike broke or the tow line released. I was able to pull the trike away from the trees and circled back to check on the glider which I then saw on the ground. I quickly landed the trike and proceeded to the accident site.
If there ARE five hundred foot trees what's the big deal about missing them - as long as you don't have a low, out of position, stalling glider on the back end of the towline ('cause you weren't doing your job to begin with) and shitrigged releases on both?
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P.S. 2012/04/05
curly_cue and hubby are Lori and John Pignatelli. Hubby's a Lookout driver.
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