instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

[miguel]

I don't think Davis is going to come around on this matter.

Everything you need to know is in the archives of this board. Take the time and read through it.

[Tad Eareckson]

Just skim them. That way you'll have a little bit of 2013 flying season left over when you're done.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28763
Aerotowing Concern

Paul Hurless - 2013/04/05 20:08:24 UTC
Reno

You mention that you have time in Cessnas. Didn't your instructor/s tell you to always be ready for an engine failure especially during critical phases of flight such as right after takeoff?

Yeah Paul, they did.

- And they also told him to drain some oil out of his crankcase and pour a little water in his fuel tanks because an engine failure on takeoff should never be a big fucking deal for any halfway competent Cessna jockey to handle - and a little practice would be good for keeping him on his toes.

- And, besides, you never can tell when an engine failure on takeoff might keep you from getting into something a lot worse.

A broken weak link or tow rope would have the same affect as an engine failure in a 172 just as you are leaving the departure end of the runway.

And people always handle those JUST FINE - total nonevents.

I don't know for certain what the circumstances surrounding the recent Florida crash were...

You don't know for certain which direction the pointy end of a glider should go on a launch ramp.

...but there have been more than a few incidents in hang gliding where the pilot failed to immediately recognize a problem and then failed to deal with in a timely manner.

And this was OBVIOUSLY one of them. Zack was OBVIOUSLY pushing the bar way out so he could climb up to be level with the tug and then just left it there when his Rooney Link clearly provided him protection from a high angle of attack. If only he had had better instruction.

The human factor is always present.

And it's practically oozing at of The Jack Show's ass. And I banned Bob Kuczewski, Sam Kellner, and Orion Price off of Kite Strings so there'd be at least one place in hang gliding in which we could keep the human factor down to a manageable level.

Like blindrodie wrote in his post following your first one, "RELEASE the moment something STARTS to go wrong."

Why?

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up

Ryan Voight - 2009/11/03 05:24:31 UTC

It works best in a lockout situation... if you're banked away from the tug and have the bar back by your belly button... let it out. Glider will pitch up, break weaklink, and you fly away.

The Rooney Link we're all forced to use does the job so much better and easier for us.

The desire to get the FAA involved is a bad idea.

How could it POSSIBLY be as bad an idea as allowing some incredible shithead such as yourself into the sport and any discussions about it?

GroundEffect - 2013/04/05 20:13:51 UTC

Tim, that analogy doesn't fly with me. I'm not going to stop flying a hang glider because of a death.

Better make goddam sure you don't fly it the same way the dead guy was flying his.

Please understand as a student I deserve the truth.

YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!

All students need to know the truth.

Then they should've gotten into some flavor of REAL aviation. Because in hang gliding all they're gonna get are opinions and lies.

GroundEffect - 2013/04/05 20:31:21 UTC

Hi Paul...

Fuck you, Paul.

...yes during fixed wing training I was taught how to handle emergency procedures and practiced them all the time.

And hopefully you learned that not all emergencies are survivable so you need to do everything you can to minimize their frequencies.

This young man in Florida was an instructor...

Obviously not a very good one.

...not a student.

BULL'S EYE. We ALL need to stay perpetual students and this guy did in spades.

Can anyone tell me what happened?

Not likely on either the Jack or Davis Shows.

That is all I'm asking.

Good freakin' luck.

I have heard a thermal jacked him up... so this is a death sentence?

It was for this pro toad 130 pound Greenspotter. And this wasn't the first time this had happened. Too bad there hasn't been a second edition of the excellent book, Towing Aloft, by Dennis Pagen and Bill Bryden with a little reality sprinkled in.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28763
Aerotowing Concern

Tim Dyer - 2013/04/05 20:33:18 UTC

I gave you the answer. AFAIK he hit a thermal at a high AOA...

NO. HE DIDN'T. If you're keeping pace with a Dragonfly you are, by definition, flying at a relatively high airspeed / low angle of attack.

...and weak-link broke...

What was:
- the rating of the weak link
- the theory determining its selection
- his purpose in including it in his system

...(low to the ground).

150 feet. High enough for a tailslide, whipstall, and two complete tumbles. Low to the ground. Right.

Dont tow in thermic conditions.

Get fucked.

As a student myself (always)...

You're not a STUDENT. You're a clone.

I also want answers.

As long as they conform to what you've been taught and what you wanna believe.

Unfortunately sometimes poop happends.

Not to people who have their poop together it doesn't.

To avoid what happend , dont tow in thermic conditions.

Yeah, sled rides were the reason we all got into this sport. If we'd wanted to gain altitude using something other than some other plane's gasoline we'd have gone into sailplanes - 'cause they CAN survive aerotowing in thermic conditions.

Always use a new weak-link (every tow)...

Fresh 130 pound Greenspot. Good for whatever ails ya. Can't beat it.

AND...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Davis Straub - 2011/08/28 15:26:28 UTC

Then again, Russell Brown had us double up behind him after six breaks in a row at Zapata. We couldn't figure out why we had so many breaks so quickly. Maybe just coincidence.

Lotsa times you get these coincidences - so you don't really have a choice.

...and hold extra speed during launch.

This didn't happen during launch.

Even with all this, there is a chance for the poop to hit the fan. We are flying, Its dangerous.

Any thoughts on how to reduce the danger level? Just kidding.

We all have to find a balance with risk vs reward. For me sitting on the couch is more dangerous than flying a hang glider...

Well then, it would probably be a real good move for you to get the fuck off the couch, go flying, and stop telling other people how sometimes shit just happens and there's really nothing you can do about it.

...you need to decide what its worth to you. Aerotow vs ground tow vs foot launch. It is a personal decision only you can make. Good luck,

Tim

Total moron.

GroundEffect - 2013/04/05 20:40:46 UTC

Davis, I'll contact our USHPA.

Here, I'll save you the trouble...

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/7067
AT SOPs - proposed revisions

Subj: Re: [Tow] AT SOPs - proposed revisions
Date: 2009/05/10 02:08:52 UTC
From: cloud9sa@aol.com
To: skysailingtowing@yahoogroups.com
cc: GreggLudwig@aol.com, lisa@lisatateglass.com

Hi Tad.

I'm Tracy Tillman, on the USHPA BOD, on the Tow Committe, and I am an Aviation Safety Counselor on the FAA Safety Team (FAAST) for the Detroit FSDO area. As a rep of both the USHPA and FAA, I would like to help you, USHPA, and the FAA improve safety in flying, towing, and hang gliding.

The FAA gets a lot of letters of complaint from a lot of yahoos. For best effect, I suggest that you describe in your letter (and also post to the skysailingtowing group and share with the USHPA Tow Committee) your areas of expertise (if any) related to this issue, and list your qualifiications, logged hours, and currency in certain categories, such as:

1. hang glider pilot rating and logged hours
2. hang glider aerotow rating, logged hours, and logged number of tows
3. hang glider tug pilot rating, logged hours towing, and logged number of tows
4. hang glider aerotow administrator appointment date
5. hang glider aerotow supervisor appointment date
6. hang glider tanderm instructor rating, logged hours of aerotow tandem instruction, and logged number of instructional flights
7. airplane pilot license ratings and logged number of hours
8. airplane tow pilot endorsement date, logged number of hours towing with airplane, logged number of tows
9. sailplane tow pilot license ratings, logged number of hours, logged number of tows.
10. sailplane instructor license date, logged number of hours of instruction, logged number of instructional tows
11. any other flying or engineering-related credentials that you may have as evidence of your competence to make these claims.

(BTW, if you have an AT hang glider rating or above the you would/should have received the USHPA Aerotow Guidelines as part of your instruction from the person who taught you to aerotow and/or gave you your AT rating, and you should currently have access to them via the packet that is accessible to you on the USHPA web site, if your AT or higher AT-related ratings and appointments are current.)

It would also be good for the FAA and USHPA to know what kind of ultalight or sport plane tug and airplane you use for towing hang gliders and sailplanes with at your operation (if any), along with a general description of your towing operation or who you provide towing and instructional services for (if any).

Additionally, if you want to really present a convincing argument, you should also: (a) get other experts to co-sign your letter, such as those who have some or most of the aerotowing-related credentials listed above, who have been doing this for many years with many students, and who support your argument; and (b) present reliable data based on valid research showing that there is a significant difference in safety with the changes that you recommend. Supportive comments from aerotow experts along with convincing data can make a difference. Otherwise, it may seem as if your perception of "the sky is falling" may not be shared by most others who have a wealth of experience and who are deeply involved in aerotowing in the US.

This information would also be very helpful in convicing the USHPA and others to take your complaint seriously. Most of the individuals who serve on the USHPA Towing Committe have most of the credentials listed above, so it will be great for you to let them know about your similar credentials and depth of experience, too. If you do not have those credentials, it will be a simple matter for the USHPA Tow Committee to respond to the FAA to discount your complaint, so it will be very important for you to present this information in your letter to the FAA and to others now.

The best way to make change is to get involved, and join the Tow Committee at its meetings. That's what people who really care do to make change. Such is the nature of the great opportunities we have to make a difference in the US (although it means having to spend time, money, and effort, compared to the ease of just sitting in front of a computer.)

Good luck with your endeavor, and regards,

Dr. Tracy Tillman
USHPA Director, Region 7
FAA Detroit FSDO FAAST Aviation Safety Counselor

I was hoping for support from my fellow fliers.

Those stupid intellectually castrated zombies are NOT your fellow flyers.

Safe flying to all.

Nooooo!!! They're not capable of it and I need them for more statistics.

No hard feelings from my end.

We'll need to work on that a bit.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28763
Aerotowing Concern

Don Arsenault - 2013/04/05 20:45:42 UTC
Toronto

You can't have all the answers without speculation.

But if you speculate...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/28 01:17:55 UTC

Well said Billo
I'm a bit sick of all the armchair experts telling me how my friend died.

Ah but hg'ers get so uppity when you tell them not to speculate.

...Rooney will refuse to tow you.

There was no camera, and the PIC is not here to give his take.

Sure he is...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/16 05:05:41 UTC

Here's a little bit of bitter reality that ya'll get to understand straight off. I won't be sugar coating it, sorry.
You see, I'm on the other end of that rope.
I want neither a dead pilot on my hands or one trying to kill me.
And yes. It is my call. PERIOD.
On tow, I am the PIC.

Now, that cuts hard against every fiber of every HG pilot on the planet and I get that.
Absolutely no HG pilot likes hearing it. Not me, not no one. BUT... sorry, that's the way it is.
Accept it and move on.
Not only can you not change it, it's the law... in the very literal sense.

Mark Frutiger's fine. It's the PASSENGER on the BACK end of the string that ain't around no more. Big fuckin' deal.

Here is my take. Keep in mind, I am a low airtime pilot...

And a victim of Mike Dead-Eye Robertson's "training" program.

...who has never aerotowed.

And can't really be bothered to:

- get your take consistent with the undisputed and obvious reported facts of the incident

- pay any attention to the half dozen people who have their shit together on these issues who've been posting their brains out battling the hordes of total morons with opinions who infest the Jack and Davis Shows

I winch tow only at this point...

Who cares? This discussion needs people who can read, add, subtract, multiply, divide, and think. It doesn't matter how much you've flown or towed or what flavor of towing have or haven't done. Both of the guys involved in the situation under discussion have a zillion times your experience, one of them's dead, and the other seems to have absolutely no fuckin' clue what the problem was.

...and have had a release failure on tow, similar to a weak link break.

We know...

http://vimeo.com/48762486


As a consequence of that piece of crap Koch 2 stage knock-off that Mike tried to stick you with.

Fact: The flight started in what seemed like fairly benign conditions.

The flight started off in...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30912
Death at Quest Air

Paul Tjaden - 2013/02/03

Weather conditions were very benign with light winds and blue skies and the glider was in good airworthy condition.

...what WERE *VERY* benign conditions.

There was something lurking ahead... an invisible...

BULLSHIT. The tug hit it and went up in it - and at that point from the glider's perspective it was QUITE visible.

...dust devil, a strong concentrated thermal, super lift, whatever you want to call it, there was something in the flight path.

How 'bout getting your information from the goddam account:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28290
Report about fatal accident at Quest Air Hang Gliding

It was a big powerful monster thermal but it was smooth and not that big a fuckin' deal.

The tug hit it first...

Duh.

...and shot up. This was the time to get off tow...

Why? We're supposed to take Tim Dyer's advice and avoid thermal conditions like the plague? No way in hell ANYBODY's gonna get off tow. Thermals are what we came for and the fuckin' clock is ticking.

...but the PIC did not.

WHICH Pilot In Command? The guy flying the glider or the gas-head Rooney has proclaimed to be Lord and Master of us all?

Speculation: Zack probably did not think it was as bad as it was.

It WASN'T. It wasn't even the strongest low shit Mark had towed people through at Quest before without incident. It wasn't anything anybody couldn't handle. It was just something the fishing line couldn't handle.

He saw the tug go up, and figured he could catch up to it, no problem, so he pushed out a bit to go up and catch up with the tug.

It's 250 feet to the thermal at this point. How much pushing out does he hafta do and for how long do you think he has to do it to get where he wants to be?

Fact: The glider hit the "super lift" next, the weak link broke...

WHY??? Was the glider getting overstressed?

...and the glider tumbled twice (from a low altitude) before striking the ground.

Sure was a good thing that Rooney Link was there to keep the glider from getting overstressed, wasn't it?

Speculation: If he was pushed out to climb up to the tug's level...

HE WASN'T.

...he was already at a very high AOA (pushed out on tow).

HE WASN'T. Have you ever heard of even a goddam Hang Two doing anything that stupid?

When he hit the edge of the devil...

THERMAL - ferchrisake.

...it could have shoved his nose up even more...

And this Hang Four tandem aerotow instructor just let it? Is that what YOU'D have been doing? You don't think he'd have had the bar fully stuffed?

...i.e., whipstall then tumble, while breaking the weak link.

Read the fucking account. Hell, READ WHAT YOU JUST WROTE ferchrisake:

Fact: The glider hit the "super lift" next, the weak link broke, and the glider tumbled twice...

My take on speculation...

This isn't speculation. This is lazy, delusional, irresponsible FICTION being churned out by someone who doesn't have his brain fully engaged.

...when on tow, if the tug suddenly shoots up, or down, or does anything out of the ordinary, or if things just don't feel right... GET OFF OF THE TOW!

- So much for aerotowing in thermal conditions.
- He got off the tow. And a little while later the ambulance crew scraped him off the runway. Happy?
- Where the fuck is your goddam instructor? Tweaking his Charts Of Reliability?
-- This incident isn't important enough for him to weigh in on?
-- We're not important enough for him to bother sharing his expertise?
-- We'll get the benefit of his expertise if we pay him for it? Doesn't seem to have done you a whole helluva lot of good.

Zack's accident was a freak accident.

BULLSHIT. It was a perfectly predictable CRASH. A severe version of what crashes gliders all the time at takeoff and dumps them into stalls at safe altitudes.

Accidents happen in all aspects of life.

Like what? Name some nasty stuff that you see on the news every night that doesn't involve stupidity, incompetence, carelessness, irresponsibility, negligence, criminal conduct.

We can do everything we can think of to mitigate the risk in this sport...

Have you thought about:
- putting a two point bridle on the glider to trim the nose way down and give the glider another twenty miles an hour of speed range?
- replacing that fucking Davis Link with a heavier piece of fishing line that never breaks when the humans are busy flying their planes?

Just kidding.

...but there will always be risk.

Nothing I'm worried about being able to deal with as long as I don't have some stupid pigfucker on a Dragonfly dictating what equipment I can and can't use and what he'll do to save me from my own incompetence.

If you don't like it... don't fly.

Lessee...

Keep in mind, I am a low airtime pilot, who has never aerotowed.

You sure you've got your shit together well enough to be telling people what they should and shouldn't be doing? Are you really sure you wanna be a hang glider pilot? Wouldn't being a Dragonfly driver suit you a lot better?

That is the only way to be 100% certain that you won't have an incident or accident.

I think that would be a much better option for YOU. I'm quite capable of dialing my risk down to driving-to-the-grocery-store level - and giving my students the formulas to do the same. You're not 'cause you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

Will you or I be faced with the exact same situation and circumstance as Zack?

I sure hope so 'cause that's EXACTLY the kind of day I'm looking for and I can handle the bump just fine - as long as the goddam tug doesn't fuck me over anyway.

Probably not. If you and I CHOOSE to keep flying, will you or I have an incident at some point that tests our everything?

No. My relevant everything is about two and a half times as heavy as his relevant everything.

Chances are good! What exactly will that situation and circumstance be? I can't answer that.

Then maybe you should find either an instructor who doesn't totally suck or another hobby.

Can you?

No problem, dude.

How exactly will you or I react in the heat of the moment?

I totally suck at that sort of thing. So I equip and fly such that I don't get into situations like that.

I can't answer that one either - can you? Could be a serious situation, could be an "oh shit" learning moment. We never know. What we do have to realize is if we choose to fly, ski, ride, dive, drive... LIVE... THERE IS RISK INVOLVED!

So we're just rolling dice every time we hook in (or think we have)?

Great training program you're running up there, Mike. I guess leaving people this confused and clueless keeps them chronically dependent on you for more and more enlightenment.

RIP Zack.

And thanks bigtime for making this issue so fucking obvious that we've finally been able to make a little headway and do some serious damage to your old buddies.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28763
Aerotowing Concern

Jim Gaar - 2013/04/05 20:52:31 UTC

Most of us old timers don't need any more explanation to understand what might or could have happened.

If any of you old timer frauds, morons, and assholes had a clue what you were doing or talking about we wouldn't need any explanations and shit like this would never happen outside of fringe activities.

You need to hit up your fellow pilots and instructor to discuss in detail.

Especially a really good instructor like Steve Wendt, Adam Elchin, Jim Rooney, Mitch Shipley, Dennis Wood, or Zack Marzec.

The internet is a messy and incomplete way to figure out what really happened.

So come over to this chunk of the internet where things are organized pretty anally, douchebags aren't tolerated, and nobody's trying to sell anybody anything.

Best air to you in your journey!

Go fuck yourself, Rodie.

Davis Straub - 2013/04/05 23:08:07 UTC

I aerotow in thermic conditions all the time. Nothing wrong with that. Never had a problem with it.

Great! So because YOU haven't had any problems with it we don't really need to worry about what happened to Mike Haas or Zack Marzec.

Motherfucker.

Davis Straub - 2013/04/05 23:09:11 UTC

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Thanks a lot for the links to those two threads, Davis. Any possibility of you unlocking them so we can finish tearing your lying cowardly ass to shreds?

Davis Straub - 2013/04/05 23:09:40 UTC

I support you on getting the USHPA to investigate this accident.

Yeah, I'm a huge fan of grotesquely corrupt corporations investigating themselves too, Davis. I'm always so comforted when they determine that the 'cause of the fatality was the incompetence of the pilot - 'cause I'm a competent pilot and therefore I know that nothing like them could ever happen to me!

Mike Lake - 2013/04/06 01:29:53 UTC

Don't tow in thermic conditions?

I would guess most tow pilots would soon move onto something more interesting if all they got for their troubles was a top to bottom.
The whole point of flatland flying is to catch a thermal and prolong your flight.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 19:39:17 UTC

Weak links break for all kinds of reasons.
Some obvious, some not.

The general consensus is the age old adage... "err on the side of caution".

The frustration of a weaklink break is just that, frustration.
And it can be very frustrating for sure. Especially on a good day, which they tend to be. It seems to be a Murphy favourite. You'll be in a long tug line on a stellar day just itching to fly. The stars are all lining up when *bam*, out of nowhere your trip to happy XC land goes up in a flash. Now you've got to hike it all the way back to the back of the line and wait as the "perfect" window drifts on by.

I get it.
It can be a pisser.

But the "other side"... the not cautions one... is not one of frustration, it's one of very real danger.
Better to be frustrated than in a hospital, or worse.
No exaggeration... this is the fire that the "other side" is made of. Best not to play with it.

You don't have too many other options open to you.

Nate Wreyford - 2013/04/06 01:49:51 UTC

Stuff, it happens

Totally useless fucking asshole.

Chris Kelcourse - 2013/04/06 02:50:28 UTC
Atlanta

I'm a cliff launcher...

And, being from that particular neck of the woods, a hook-in check hater.

...but currently an AT student, I've got ten tandem training flights, flew from takeoff to landing myself for the first time the other weekend.

What were you using in the way of a weak link for the tandem?

From my newbie perspective, the only time I feel vulnerable is during takeoff until I get high enough to make a competent landing or deploy chute in emergency.

- Yeah, so many people have been bailed out of bad tow situations...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uegD4QeAc58

25-0820

26-0902

34-1209


...by their parachutes.

- So apparently you're smart enough to understand, despite all the rot you've been fed in "training", that if the shit hits the fan down low there may be nothing you'll be able to do to keep your ass in one piece.

- So have you done everything possible to optimize your tow equipment for the widest possible safety margins?

I've read a lot...

The excellent book, Towing Aloft, by Dennis Pagen and Bill Bryden?

Hang Gliding For Beginner Pilots, By Peter Cheney, published by Matt Taber, the Official Flight Training Manual of the United States Hang Gliding Association?

What did they have to say about a situation like the one that took out Zack Marzec? Anything in the chapters on freak accidents?

...and have been shown in flight examples of the symptoms of approaching a "lock out"...

Can you describe them to us?

Bill Bryden - 2000/02

Dennis Pagen informed me several years ago about an aerotow lockout that he experienced. One moment he was correcting a bit of alignment with the tug and the next moment he was nearly upside down. He was stunned at the rapidity. I have heard similar stories from two other aerotow pilots.

My experience with them has been that one moment everything's completely normal and the next you're on your ear.

...which is one of the biggest causes of tragic AT accidents.

Really? I was under the impression that since the introduction of 130 pound Greenspot lockouts were pretty much things of the deep recesses of hang gliding history.

Training says RELEASE when you encounter them.

Yeah. Really weird how with all that excellent training out there we still have so many people who...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27yFcEMpfMk

10-2017

11-2201

12-2303

15-2421


...think they can fix a bad thing and don't want to start over. Why do you think that is?

Lemme tell ya sumpin', dude...

- ALL these asshole instructors train people to RELEASE when they encounter lockouts.

- NOBODY needs to be told this - any more than student drivers need to be told to slam on the brakes when they're going fifty and kids, bikes, deer, SUVs shoot out in front of them.

- Although there's no guarantee that things will turn out great in any given situation people with good brakes are gonna have better averages than crappy brakes.

- The number of North American instructors emphasizing the importance of and equipping their student with the equivalent of safe quality brakes is pretty much zero.

With a primary and secondary release at my disposal, and a hook knife in the chance in a million case where they both fail, I feel pretty confident in the release.

- Really? I've got some really bulletproof release equipment and I've been hit by some really nasty lockouts at altitude and I feel pretty confident that there's no way in hell I'm gonna be able to blow myself off with my primary - let alone a secondary or idiot goddam Rooney Link or hook knife.

- The purpose of a SECONDARY release is to blow tow in the event of a bridle wrap. A SECONDARY release is NOT a BACKUP release - to be used in case your primary fails. If you get a bridle wrap after using a secondary as a backup you can wind up dead really fast. So if you can't manage to acquire a primary release as reliable as your sidewires then don't tow.

I just worry about the first twenty to thirty seconds of takeoff.

Me too. But:

- By using a weak link two and a half times as heavy as yours and a tug which complies with FAA aerotowing regulations I've pretty much eliminated one of the issues about which you worry - the one that just killed Zack Marzec.

- I'm pretty sure my odds of being able to deal with any other situation which occurs within the first twenty to thirty seconds are a lot better than yours.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28763
Aerotowing Concern

Tim Dyer - 2013/04/06 14:21:39 UTC

Mike Lake - 2013/04/06 01:29:53 UTC

Don't tow in thermic conditions?

I would guess most tow pilots would soon move onto something more interesting if all they got for their troubles was a top to bottom.
The whole point of flatland flying is to catch a thermal and prolong your flight.
You don't have too many other options open to you.

I agree, but the OP wants to PREVENT what happend. Only way to do that is......

I'd say there are quite a few...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=12682
Landing on your feet (for AEROTOW)- So Dangerous

Jack Axaopoulos - 2009/06/29 14:26:26 UTC

OMG!!! You dont even have wheels!!?!?!?!?
YOURE GONNA DIE FOR SUUUUREE!!!!

I have a brilliant idea. People who cant land for sh*t.... LEARN TO LAND That way when a weak link breaks on you, ITS A NON-ISSUE. Genius huh???

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Kinsley Sykes - 2011/08/31 11:35:36 UTC

But if you don't want to listen to the folks that actually know what they are talking about, go ahead.
Feel free to go the the tow park that Tad runs...

Dr. Trisa Tilletti - 2011/09

The cone of safety is a border around the normal, center tow position, which delineates the out-of-position point at which a lockout or loss of control will occur. By definition, loss of controllability on tow is considered a lockout. A lockout can occur from being too far from center, left or right, up or down, or diagonally.

Dr. Trisa Tilletti - 2012/03

From the view of the tug pilot, some hang glider pilots towing without a fin often look like a Raggedy-Ann doll on the end of a rubber band, bouncing all over the place while trying to maintain control on tow.

Whereas, when pilots use a fin to enhance the directional stability of their glider, they tend to be much more smooth and rock-solid on the centerline during tow, and they are not moving and bouncing around during tow nearly as much as a pilot who is not using a fin. It puts less stress and wear on the weak link, and it is more likely that the pilot will get a successful tow to release altitude without a weak link break or lockout--which makes it more likely for them to get a great soaring flight.

Dr. Trisa Tilletti - 2012/06

A Spectra bridle has almost no stretch, so sharp, impact loads are transferred directly to the weak link, while a polypro bridle has a reasonable amount off stretch and can act as a shock absorber and reduce the intensity of the impact load.

Without shock absorption, a Spectra bridle acts somewhat like an impact wrench on the weak link.

Dr. Trisa Tilletti - 2012/06

Finally, everyone should know that thorough aerotow training and currency results in a more proficient aerotow pilot who can tow more smoothly and can stay more precisely in the center of the cone of safety. When hang glider pilots can fly their gliders on tow as smoothly as a sailplane flies on tow, it is less likely that they will experience an inadvertent weak link break.

The United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association, Inc. - 2012/06/20
Standard Operating Procedure
12. Rating System
02. Pilot Proficiency System
12. Hang Gliding Aerotow
-A. Aerotow

05. The candidate must also demonstrate the ability to properly react to a weak link/tow rope break simulation with a tandem rated pilot, initiated by the tandem pilot at altitude, but at a lower than normal release altitude. Such demonstrations should be made in smooth air.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26870
weak links

Paul Hurless - 2012/08/14 18:13:13 UTC

Failing to be ready to immediately land if a weak link breaks is a very basic pilot error.

Paul Hurless - 2012/08/15 07:39:03 UTC

I am curious about why some people fear low level weak link breaks or being given the tow line. Weren't you taught how to handle that situation when you learned to tow? Being aware of what can go wrong and knowing how to handle it during a critical phase of your flight is an important thing, I think. If you're ready for it when or if it happens it can be easily dealt with. It's not that difficult. It should pretty much be an automatic response.

Craig Hassan - 2012/08/16 13:15:57 UTC

So my suggestion is, don't break your weak link and it won't cause you any problems.

Craig Hassan - 2012/08/17 10:43:10 UTC

Stay focused, stay in position, and stay in control. This flying thing is easy when you do that.

Kinsley Sykes - 2012/08/17 17:09:23 UTC

A weaklink break should be a non-event, if it's an event, I'd say the problem is with the pilot not the "thing".

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/05 21:40:02 UTC

You're afraid of breaking off with a high AOA? Good... tow with a WEAKER weaklink... you won't be able to achieve a high AOA. Problem solved.

- LEARN TO LAND. That way when a weak link breaks on you, IT'S A NONISSUE. Genius huh???
- Stay out of the tow park Tad runs.
- Stay in the Center of the Cone of Safety.
- Use a fin.
- Use a polypro bridle which does not act as much as an impact wrench on the weak link as a Spectra bridle does.
- Fly your glider on tow as smoothly as a sailplane flies on tow.
- Limit your weak link breaks to flights with tandem rated pilots at altitude and in smooth air.
- Be ready to immediately land if a weak link breaks.
- Don't fear low level weak link breaks or being given the tow line.
- Be aware of what can go wrong during critical phases of flight and know how to handle it.
- Don't break your weak link and it won't cause you any problems.
- Stay focused, stay in position, and stay in control. This flying thing is easy when you do that.
- Understand that a weak link break should be a nonevent, otherwise the problem is with the pilot - not the "thing".
- Tow with a WEAKER weaklink. You won't be able to achieve a high AOA. Problem solved.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28763
Aerotowing Concern

Mike Lake - 2013/04/06 22:36:04 UTC

Not the only way.

How about flying with a weak-link that doesn't break in thermic conditions?

Yeah..

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/07/19 14:50:52 UTC

Weak links don't always break in lockout situations... so lets make them stronger? Are you nuts?

I don't care if they're "Meant" to break in lockout. How the hell is it a bad thing if they do?

You're advocating making tow systems more dangerous for the sake of definitions. Here in reality, weak links work. They may not suit your definitions, but you're on crack if you think they're not doing people good.

And yes, get behind me with a "strong link" and I will not tow you.

Right.

That way you get to do some good keepy uppy flights and reduce your chances of suddenly finding yourself in a position with little chance of recovery.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 19:39:17 UTC

Weak links break for all kinds of reasons.
Some obvious, some not.

The general consensus is the age old adage... "err on the side of caution".

The frustration of a weaklink break is just that, frustration.
And it can be very frustrating for sure. Especially on a good day, which they tend to be. It seems to be a Murphy favourite. You'll be in a long tug line on a stellar day just itching to fly. The stars are all lining up when *bam*, out of nowhere your trip to happy XC land goes up in a flash. Now you've got to hike it all the way back to the back of the line and wait as the "perfect" window drifts on by.

I get it.
It can be a pisser.

But the "other side"... the not cautions one... is not one of frustration, it's one of very real danger.
Better to be frustrated than in a hospital, or worse.
No exaggeration... this is the fire that the "other side" is made of. Best not to play with it.

Win Win.

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 06:04:23 UTC

Take this weaklink nonsense.
What do I "advocate"?
I don't advocate shit... I *USE* 130 test lb, greenspun cortland braided fishing line.
It is industry standard.
It is what *WE* use.

If someone's got a problem with it... we've got over ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND TANDEM TOWS and COUNTLESS solo tows that argue otherwise. So they can politely get stuffed.

As my friend likes to say... "Sure, it works in reality... but does it work in theory?"
Hahahahhaa... I like that one a lot

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28763
Aerotowing Concern

Paul Edwards - 2013/04/07 01:32:57 UTC

GroundEffect - 2013/04/05 20:13:51 UTC

Tim, that analogy doesn't fly with me. I'm not going to stop flying a hang glider because of a death.
Please understand as a student I deserve the truth. All students need to know the truth.

Hey man, I understand where you're coming from.

Especially after having been fucked over by Mitch Shipley on 2012/09/30 - speaking of Quest.

I've only been flying for about three years and I'm just starting to have a frame to think about these kinds of issues.

Instead of in ground school - the way things SHOULD be done in a program that doesn't totally suck.

I think I've followed a fairly standard progression in perception.

A lot faster than most but still nowhere near fast enough.

We start our training and our instructors...

Assholes.

...tell us that flying HG is as safe as we want to make it.

Lying assholes. It's primarily as safe as THEY and our tow drivers wanna make it.

We take that as the gospel and carry on because it's frikkin awesome to fly. As soon as we start to fly in increasingly challenging conditions (a slow progression one hopes) we begin to see that while the old adage is largely true, there is always a slim margin for shit going down that we can't foresee or control.

If your instruction hadn't totally sucked you'd know that there's virtually nothing we can't foresee and either control or avoid. These aren't the reasons we're crashing and killing people.

With respect to the incident under discussion the shit that happened shortly after takeoff was not at all off-the-scale/unfamiliar and both "pilots" knew exactly what they were dealing with and the vulnerable plane had 250 feet of advance notice. And a fuckin' Hang 2.0 - using equipment that DIDN'T totally suck - could've handled it in his sleep.

Eventually, after having some scary experiences ourselves, or perhaps after our first funeral for a flying buddy, we start to come to terms with a new reality which is that we are pursuing a dangerous activity.

What funerals? Tim Martin I'll give you - but that's about where I stop.

It has a high degree of inherent danger that we have to manage effectively to fly safe.

You hafta know HOW to manage it effectively. And as long as these vile flight park shits are spewing this rot about this being a "freak accident" and continuing putting people up in Marzec Configuration it CANNOT be managed effectively.

Regarding the details of the accident...

The WHAT???

...in question, no one can give you a definitive answer because no one knows for sure what went down.

BULLSHIT. The people who AREN'T stupid and/or lying shits who've been involved in these discussions have worked their asses off to get the two plus two equals four concept across and if you wanna show them that kind of contempt and give that kind of aid and comfort to the enemy then you can go fuck yourself.

You've read the accident report. The report makes it sound like an invisible dust devil was the culprit.

BULL FUCKING SHIT.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Mark Frutiger - 2013/02/08 19:12:21 UTC

Zack hit the lift a few seconds after I did. He was high and to the right of the tug and was out of my mirror when the weak ling broke. The load on the tug was not excessive as with a lockout, but I was not surprised when the weak link broke. I was still in the thermal when I caught sight of Zack again. I did not see the entry to the tumble, but I did see two revolutions of a forward tumble before kicking the tug around to land. The thermal was still active in the area that I had just launched from so I did a go round and landed on a runway 90 degrees cross to the direction we were towing in.

It was a big fat smooth no big fucking deal THERMAL. But I'm sure Quest, the rest of The Industry, USHGA are no less than thrilled to see this dust devil myth get propagated and firmly embedded in the culture's collective memory 'cause that works SO MUCH better with the "freak accident" write-off/cover-up.

Even with that there were a number of things that had to happen all just exactly wrong to bring him down.

BULLSHIT. Being pro toad with a Rooney Link you could see that one coming 250 feet away. It was pretty much the aviation equivalent of a car going sixty with a locked steering wheel and disabled brakes heading for a telephone pole.

The relative position of the tug, the tension in the line, the glider's AOA when encountering the lift, the weak link breaking at exactly the wrong moment...

When did you THINK...

Donnell Hewett - 1981/10

Now I've heard the argument that "Weak links always break at the worst possible time, when the glider is climbing hard in a near stall situation"...

...it was gonna break, Paul?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYe3YmdIQTM


When did you think the tension was gonna peak?
- BEFORE he got blasted up?
- After he stabilized?

...then the glider tumbling where another glider may have recovered all had to happen the way they did for that dramatic of an outcome to take place.

Fuck anything that happened after that. He whipstalled - totally unnecessarily. You whipstall a glider I don't give a rat's ass whether or not you were high enough to recover or get a chute open.

There are absolutely weather conditions that exist in our world that can knock you out of the sky in ways that you are powerless to prevent.

Yeah, there are. Read the fucking tug driver's account...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Mark Frutiger - 2013/02/08 19:12:21 UTC

Zack hit the lift a few seconds after I did. He was high and to the right of the tug and was out of my mirror when the weak ling broke. The load on the tug was not excessive as with a lockout, but I was not surprised when the weak link broke. I was still in the thermal when I caught sight of Zack again. I did not see the entry to the tumble, but I did see two revolutions of a forward tumble before kicking the tug around to land. The thermal was still active in the area that I had just launched from so I did a go round and landed on a runway 90 degrees cross to the direction we were towing in.

...and tell me how this goddam BUMP came more than five percent of the way to qualify.

The trick is to educate yourself enough to know how to avoid them.

I think you better spend a little time getting your own shit together before you start counseling anyone else.

Some are obvious, like flying into a thunderstorm.

Tim Martin. And that wasn't five percent as obvious as Zack Marzec.

Others take more time to learn about, like judging the safety margin of any given booming thermal day.

- Zack wasn't killed...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30912
Death at Quest Air

Paul Tjaden - 2013/02/03

Weather conditions were very benign with light winds and blue skies and the glider was in good airworthy condition.

...flying on a booming thermal day.

- Zack wasn't killed by a booming thermal day. Zack was killed by being pro toad with a Rooney Link.

- We're not killing people because they're flying on booming thermal days.

On the other hand, as a group we tow in thermic conditions all the time.

http://ozreport.com/13.238
Adam Parer on his tuck and tumble

Adam Parer - 2009/11/25

Due to the rough conditions weak links were breaking just about every other tow and the two tugs worked hard to eventually get everyone off the ground successfully.

Like Pud said, that's basically the point of towing... get up, snag a thermal, and get up more! I am an infrequent tower and yet I have had some great thermal flights off of tow. I wait until later in the day when the strong stuff is done and I feel reasonably assured that I'm not going to hit anything dramatic. I never tow first.

Who does? If you happen to be the ranking pilot do you use the Hang Twos as your guinea pigs?

I've followed the tug through some thermals and mainly it's pure fun. It adds a little action to an otherwise uneventful trip up to release height.

A nice smooth ride behind the tug is a pretty good indication that the free flight part won't be much to write home about.

Getting back to my first point, I believe that yes, we can manage the risk of flying hang gliders effectively.

Depends a lot on who you mean by "WE", Paul.

It takes discipline to know when to launch and when to pack up and go home.

This is relevant to Zack Marzec's situation how?

It takes humility to watch a dozen young guns (whose tolerance for risk is greater than yours) come off the training hills and start flying a topless glider six months later while you're still on your Sport 2. It takes a willingness to spend as much time reading weather books as you've spent out on the training hill until you start to understand the many forces at play with enough accuracy to judge conditions for yourself. It takes diligence against the ever lurking danger of complacency.

Right Paul, Zack was killed because he was flying too hot a glider and hadn't spent enough time reading weather books.

Most importantly however, in my opinion, it takes passion. Passion for flying hang gliders.

And he was really hurting in the...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLTDPeB55ek

13302
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7395/13626862385_ae79ba296a_o.png

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-i4owd0akd0

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3713/9655904048_89cce6423a_o.png


...passion department.

If you don't love it, you will probably talk yourself out of it sooner or later.

Real useful, Paul. Keep up the great work.

2013/04/07 06:47:39 UTC - 3 thumbs up - flysurfski

Dennis Wood - 2013/04/07 03:11:20 UTC

yeah, what he said...

If that doesn't tell you you've missed the target by a couple of miles I don't know what will.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28727
Easiest sites to learn foot launch.

johhnn - 2013/03/28 17:01:48 UTC
Maine

I spent about ten days at the local site working towards my Hang One last year. I haven't been back yet, but I need more confidence in my ability to turn. The problem is that as I work my way up the hill, if I don't turn I'm going to end up hitting a building, a ditch or the road.

It is not that I don't know how to turn. For one flight the instructor attached a radio to my harness and he told me when to turn. I executed his instructions just fine. It's more of a mental thing, "If you don't make this turn, you'll be in trouble." That makes it scary.

Good. That'll help you understand the importance of tight approaches and pressure you to make them properly.

Can anyone suggest a good site for me?

I like the one you're on. Stick with it until you're comfortable with the turns. That'll reduce your future likelihood of overshooting.

What I want to be able to do is foot launch from a height high enough to make some gentle turns and that has a large open field with no obstructions to land in.

That'll do just the opposite.

I'd like a site in the US, but could potentially travel to Europe or elsewhere. Safety in learning is my main priority. I'd appreciate any suggestions offered.

Do hook-in checks and land on your wheels.

Maybe Point of the Mountain would be good, but I hear they are turning it to rubble.

AND Ryan "teaches" there.

Fletcher - 2013/03/28 18:29:18 UTC

We all wanted to fly from high places early on but it's wise to learn the basics before doing so.

And good freaking luck finding an instructor or mentor in hang gliding who UNDERSTANDS the basics.

In my opinion if you can't land at Morningside you probably shouldn't fly from higher unfamiliar sites.
Please take the time learn turns on training hills before you get in over your head on higher sites.

I'll drink to that. Fast, low, hard turns.

You'll be glad you've honed your skills when you need them.

Fly Free
Fletcher

Red Howard - 2013/03/28 18:44:28 UTC

Fletcher,

I don't see him asking for a higher hill, just a bigger, better LZ until he gets his target landings down pat.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21088
What you wish you'd known then?

Doug Doerfler - 2011/03/02 05:24:44 UTC

Nothing creates carnage like declaring a spot landing contest.

I think he is okay on landings, too...

Foot landings? Probably has them perfected. Time to take the wheels off.

Dennis Wood - 2013/03/28 18:46:05 UTC

hands down, the easiest place is KITTY HAWK KITES on the Outer Banks (OBX) of North Carolina. sand dunes and some more sand dunes with normally great weather. (this weekend is and example of the not so great, with temps only about 60 with winds in the 6-10 mph range. great fishing and beaches also. if you have your USHPA membership card and your own equipment, just check into the State Park office at JOCKEY'S RIDGE STATE PARK. let me know how the sand tastes.

And don't forget to check out their aerotow operation at Currituck.

Fletcher - 2013/03/29 00:50:31 UTC

Johhnn, Red,

My Bad
While writing my response I lost track of the original question.
Sorry for the poor response.

Perhaps contact Paul Voight @ Fly High and see if he knows of an appropriate site.

Yeah. Him too.

Don Arsenault - 2013/03/29 14:26:09 UTC

Sounds to me like you need a big field and a scooter tow.

http://vimeo.com/48762486

Brad Barkley - 2013/03/29 15:42:47 UTC



If you can find a scooter tow operation, it's ideal for your needs. Big field, and your "hill" can be as big or small as it needs to be for your purposes.

johhnn - 2013/03/29 17:06:13 UTC

Thanks folks.

I'm not ready to go too high at this point. I think I'll know when I'm ready and it will involve having better confidence in my ability to turn and some better flares.

- Work on the turns.
- Fuck the goddam flares - land on the goddam wheels.

Yes, where in California would be suitable for me? I know of Dockweiler...

Joe Greblo will set fix you up just fine on...



...your flare timing.

...and Torrey Pines.

And there's none better for...



...preflight checks of your suspension than Bob Kuczewski.

But I don't know details. Torrey would not allow for a gradual increase in height and has the water hazard.

Not to mention that it's a Hang Four site.

I'm a bit wary of towing after reading about Zac Marzec, who I met last year and now is no longer with us.

How wary would you be if The Industry admitted that the only reasons he died were because he was:
- being pro toad; and
- using a Rooney Link at or below the legal limit
instead of trying to snow everybody with a load of crap about it being an inexplicable freak accident?

It's an extra variable being pulled like that whether by scooter...

Wills Wing / Blue Sky / Steve Wendt / Ryan Voight Productions - 2007/03

NEVER CUT THE POWER...



Reduce Gradually
Increase Gradually

...or ultralight...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 02:44:10 UTC

The "purpose" of a weaklink is to increase the safety of the towing operation. PERIOD.

...though scooter may be a little safer since the operator can stop if something goes wrong.

Oh, I wouldn't worry too much about the aerotow operator...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 13:47:23 UTC

Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.

...not being being able to stop the tow. I'm just real worried that you're operating under the delusion that things are likely to get better when the tow is stopped.

At the Outer Banks, won't my wheels stop dead in the sand and I will nose over?

Maybe. So what? It's SAND.

At least at Morningside, the wheels have rolled pretty well in the grass for me.

So then why are you worried about better flares?

I appreciate your comments.

You're not getting everyone's comments - just the ones Jack's allowing you to hear.

I have a strong desire to learn...

Super. Just be damn careful about WHAT you're learning - 'cause damn near everything you learn from hang gliding culture is gonna be backwards.

...but want to keep it safe.

Then you'd be highly advised to check out Kite Strings.

Thanks.

Don't mention it.