Well, was moving to the pro-tow worth it, to have a cleaner look, I'm not sure.
2 points is safier and more confortable. There is no safty reason to switch for a "pro-tow". Don't care the cosmetic.
I am not happy with the feeling that I can't move my hand while on tow.
I'm quite sure that's never necessary
As an AT tandem pilot I like to keep my 2 hands on the basebar. With both hands, I can keep the perfect control of my glider at any time even when I have to release.
No delay before to release. No fails (brake missed, brake rotation) http://www.nanoavionic.com/ http://www.getoffrelease.com/
I may agree with Andrew about being worried about dropping the 'monkey fist' at a critical time.
The lanyard should be in your hand, between fingers, from the start and has absolutely no reason to move from it. Never happend to me.
I have been thinking about a mouth release. Is the one mentioned here available somewhere. How often used, etc...
thanks
Mouth release means "pro-tow" (1 point), not the safiest way to be aerotowed..
but as "pro-tow" devices, the followings are by far much better than the barrel bent pin and suitable for emergencies on the cart and in the air close to the ground. You won't use them very often but more than your chute for sure.
And a lot cheaper and a lot more likely to keep you from getting killed.
3 kinds of mouth release:
- The Russian
Actuation: open mouth
no bridle. You need a ring and a weaklink on the towline.
You COULD use it with a bridle (link) just like in my configurations with the Four-String and Remote Barrel.
Simple barrel release (NO bent pin !) on the other side.
Direct Load/Actuation effort #20
Used with a bridle.
- "Squidlinks Emergency Release" http://ozreport.com/docs/squidlinks.htm
Tad re-designed it in a 4-strings, but use it at 3 strings offers better release at lowest load.
Sorry 'bout that.
Direct Load/Actuation effort : HIGH
You can use it already "armed" and just open your mouth to release
or with the lanyard through a clamcleat: pull first, then open mouth
The weaklink is a "bridle link" between the mouth release and the barrel release on the other side.
The latter two are not available in the market. Some did them but you can build your own.
Personaly, I use the remote barrel release with a 450lb weaklink. Works well.
Well intended PILOTS? I'm having a real tough time getting my head wrapped around that concept.
...seem to be promoting the old, tired, "better" weak links and "hands on bar" release ideas.
Yeah, old and tired. I mean, well intended pilots have been trying to get those back in circulation since the early Eighties when Donnell convinced everybody that hands on the bar releases were of no advantage whatsoever and the top of a safe Skyting range weak link was about the bottom of a safe FAA range weak link.
Sorry, but that's not the best answer.
No. OBVIOUSLY not. For Thou hast proclaimed it so. And we all praise Thee for sharing with us mere unworthy mortals a morsel's worth of Thine boundless and unerring wisdom.
We don't live in a perfect world of quantum knowns and 100% reliabilities.
And we're up to our asses in aerotow park operators whose collective IQs would give us no hope whatsover of making it into double digits.
Fine-tuning a weak link isn't going to get us but so far.
Especially when we've got this AMAZING tournament fishing line with the microscopic tolerances we need to have so it meets our expectations of breaking as early as possible in lockout situations but being strong and reliable enough to avoid frequent breaks from turbulence - EQUALLY WELL FOR ALL GLIDERS.
There's also a way to swing your body way outside the control frame so it stays up there while you reach out with one hand and release.
- And it's such a TRAGEDY that more people haven't learned that technique.
So MANY lives could've been saved. How very odd that it's not in the excellent book, Towing Aloft, by Dennis Pagen and Bill Bryden or Hang Gliding For Beginner Pilots, the Official Flight Training Manual of the USHGA.
You'd think that:
- some of the top notch flight parks like Wallaby, Quest, Florida Ridge, Lockout, Ridgely, Manquin, Whitewater, Cowboy Up... would have that as part of their programs.
- that skill would be a requirement for an AT rating. Something that simple and that effective?
Hey! Maybe Dr. Trisa Tilletti could add it to the SOPs, include it with their tandem program along with Cone of Safety training, and write another Higher Education article for the magazine!
As for being in a situation where you can't or don't want to let go, Ryan's got the right idea. They're called "weak" links for a reason. Overload that puppy and you bet your ass it's going to break.
You can tell me till you're blue in the face about situations where it theoretically won't let go or you can drone on and on about how "weaklinks only protect the glider" (which is BS btw)... and I can tell ya... I could give a crap, cuz just pitch out abruptly and that little piece of string doesn't have a chance in hell. Take your theory and shove it... I'm saving my a$$.
...pitch out abruptly so that little piece of string doesn't have a chance in hell? Instant hands free release, dude!
Come on - do some pushups this winter. See if you can advance up to some one-arm pushups.
And after you do that you should have NO PROBLEM swinging yourself up into the control frame after running off of Whitwell with your carabiner dangling.
We live and tow within a multiplex of simultaneous superimposed variables, so dialing in with a 6-sigma weak link doesn't do much good if the load is applied differently than designed - like jerked, etc.
Dr. Trisa Tilletti - 2012/06
We could get into details of lab testing weak links and bridles, but this article is already getting long. That would be a good topic for an article in the future. Besides, with our backgrounds in formal research, you and I both know that lab tests may produce results with good internal validity, but are often weak in regard to external validity--meaning lab conditions cannot completely include all the factors and variability that exists in the big, real world.
What we have covered in this article is practical information and knowledge gleaned from the real world of aerotowing, developed over decades and hundreds of thousands of tows by experts in the field. This information has practical external validity. Hopefully, someone will develop methods and technology that work better than what we are using as standard practice today. Like the methods and technology used today, it is unlikely that the new technology will be dictated onto us as a de jure standard. Rather, to become a de facto standard, that new technology will need to be made available in the marketplace, proven in the real world, and then embraced by our sport.
Moving through the mine field of living and flying, there are still plenty of hazards to step on, even if you have the perfectly engineered weak link maybe helping you succeed.
- A weak link perfectly engineered to meet our expectations that it break as early as possible in a lockout situation but is strong and reliable enough to avoid frequent breaks from turbulence. Dude, after decades worth of experimentation we've got something that fits that bill. We've got a proven system that works with a track records of quite literally HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of tows. That's a wheel that nobody needs to reinvent.
- So what you're saying is that this aviation game is such a crap shoot anyway that there's really not much point in trying to do any better with our equipment than slap on whatever your douchebag flight park hands sells you and tells will work OK most of the time. And, hell, even if it doesn't, you DO have a hook knife, right? AND a parachute!
It might help some pilots to be less scared and more confident if they believe they have the perfect weak link...
Yeah, that's what the people with the functional brains in this lunatic discussion have been saying over and over and over. If you've got the perfect weak link, it will provide a safe limit on the tow force...
The Wallaby Ranch Aerotowing Primer for Experienced Pilots - 1998/02
A weak link connects the V-pull to the release, providing a safe limit on the tow force. If you fail to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon), the weak link will break before you can get into too much trouble.
...and, if you fail to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon), break before you can get into too much trouble.
...and the perfect release for their tow...
Why would anybody look for the perfect release for their tow? Hell, we've already GOT the best of which Twenty-First Century human technology is capable...
When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less), but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it. The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.
Anyhow, the tandem can indeed perform big wingovers, as I demonstrated when I finally got separated from the tug.
Just can't do much better than that.
...but truly if a pilot believes he has a high probability of a low-level lock out coming soon then he just needs more advanced AT training...
Anybody who is truly a good pilot, in any form of aviation, knows that the knowledge, skills, and judgement you have in your head, learned from thorough instruction from a good instructor with a good curriculum, are the best pieces of equipment you can fly with. Good equipment is important, the best equipment is a well-trained brain.
...at Cloud 9 - with a couple of the best trained brains in the business. Then you can just tie a rope to your basetube and cut it with a hook knife if you have a problem.
...milder conditions...
Yeah. Milder conditions.
Paul Tjaden - 2013/02/07 23:47:58 UTC
The weather conditions seemed quite benign. It was a typical winter day in central Florida with sunny skies, moderate temperatures and a light south west wind.
None of that nasty thermal stuff. Why anyone would wanna fly in crap like that is totally beyond me.
...and/or maybe a more forgiving glider.
Yeah, like maybe a nice Falcon 3 195 like Roy Messing had. Then you should be able to get away with using a piece of shit Lookout Release that you've gotta pull three of four times to have a shot at opening it.
And after you've had more advanced AT training and are flying in milder conditions and/or with maybe a more forgiving glider you can start believing that you have a LOW probability of a low-level lockout coming soon - and you'll almost always be RIGHT!
The load on the tug was not excessive as with a lockout but I was not surprised when the weak link broke.
...and Zack to ANTICIPATE the Rooney Link failure. Then everything would've been fine. Zack would've pulled the bar in - instead of just staying pushed out to climb with the tug, even after the pop.
...and also EXPECT your release to not work.
Well yeah. Of course! Just read the fuckin'...
Matt Taber - 2009/07/12
GT Manufacturing Inc. (GT) and Lookout Mountain Flight Park Inc. (LMFP) make no claim of serviceability of this tow equipment. There is no product liability insurance covering this gear and we do not warrant this gear as suitable for towing anything. We make no claim of serviceability in any way and recommend that you do not use this aerotow gear if you are not absolutely sure how to use it and or if you are unwilling to assume the risk.
...owner's manual, ferchrisake. You'd hafta be a total fuckin' moron to expect your release to work.
LMFP Release
I sent 3 times this email to fly@hanglide.com without any answer !!! :
Hello
I recently purchased one of your Aerotow Primary Releases for use in aerotowing tandem gliders. We conduct a tandem aerotowing operation just south of Paris, France.
We have been having considerable trouble releasing when the line is under high tension. It takes considerable effort to pull the Rope-Loop release, often requiring two or three violent tugs on the loop. Obviously, this is a considerable safety concern.
That's good advice that Campbell and them taught me before they "graduated" me from their school by making me Chase the Ace.
Wow! That's EXACTLY how Blindrodie...
Jim Gaar - 2013/02/19 16:10:15 UTC
I remember how Les Taff reacted when she heard that I was a self taught ATer! She decided that if I could handle her version of "Chase the Ace" she would sign me off.
...qualified for HIS rating! Is this a GREAT SPORT or WHAT!!!
Lemme tell ya sumpin', you off the scale stupid motherfucker...
The last time I saw Campbell, at the 2008 ECC, he was using, along with a DOUBLE loop of 130 on his one point bridle, a couple of the bent pin pieces of shit that his buddy Bobby "designed.
I let him find out on my test rig what it felt like to pull a Bailey at 200 pounds and he left with one of my one point assemblies...
Some (perhaps well-intended?) pilots seem to be promoting the old, tired, "better" weak links and "hands on bar" release ideas.
By 'better' I'm going to assume you mean 'stronger', as no one is promoting weaker weak links.
Sorry, but that's not the best answer.
To which question? If the question is 'what would have given Zack M the best chance of survival?', I'd put my money on staying on the line. It sounds like you disagree. If so, what is the best answer, then? Being ready for a weak link failure?
Be ready for a weak link failure at any time, and also EXPECT your release to not work.
Being that either of those things could be fatal, how about we also do everything we can to make sure they don't happen?
Fine-tuning a weak link isn't going to get us but so far.
Doubling a weak link value, or even increasing it by 54% (as would be the case for a 200 lb weak link), is not what I'd call 'fine-tuning'. But more importantly, it's pointless to try to 'fine tune' a weak link. The best a weak link can do is hold under any normal tow circumstances and break before the glider. The range of breaking strengths that would satisfy these criteria is large. Only those with loftier expectations for their weak links talk about 'fine tuning'.
It might help some pilots to be less scared and more confident if they believe they have the perfect weak link and the perfect release for their tow, but truly if a pilot believes he has a high probability of a low-level lock out coming soon then he just needs more advanced AT training, milder conditions, and/or maybe a more forgiving glider.
If we're discussing preventing the accident in discussion, it involved neither a low level lockout nor an unskilled pilot.
And the ambient conditions were nothing to write home about either.
(To be clear, I don't think Zack M's release was a factor in this incident.)
How many stupid pills do you have to swallow to be able to talk to assholes like this without going totally ballistic?
To which question? If the question is 'what would have given Zack M the best chance of survival?', I'd put my money on staying on the line. It sounds like you disagree. If so, what is the best answer, then? Being ready for a weak link failure?
Just for the sake of the new tow pilots that might, "infer" something from the posts on this thread are any of us willing to say that being on tow is inherently safer than being in free flight?
I dunno, Bill. Do we have enough information to answer that question with answer that's worth shit?
Is it inherently safer to be fifty feet up in a Ponderosa Pine than on the ground?
Don't we have to know if there's a pissed off Grizzly at the base of the tree or a crown fire sweeping up the ridge toward us a hundred yards away?
What's your freakin' point?
Maybe I came in late and missed this part of the discussion elsewhere on the Report.
Did you enjoy your lunch?
If anyone needs a dose of frustration just post something about weaklinks.
Unless you're backing the 130 pound one-size-fits-all standard aerotow weak link with a track record quite literally HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of tows long. Then you're gonna get lotsa covering fire from all the total shitheads who've been running this sport for the past couple decades or so.
Conversely, you need to fly like you might come off the line at any time
I think Ksykes just said a mouthful there
Yeah, a lot of us missed that in the course of acquiring our ratings. And blowing a loop of 130 pound Greenspot is such a rare occurrence that a lot of us forget that it's always a possibility - no matter how remote.
Some of us rely too much or become (over time) to complacent on things working right every time.
Quest Air has been involved in perfecting aerotowing for nearly twenty years.
An unintended consequence of the flight park people doing the high quality work they do. We should have people fly funky shit in very controlled conditions once in a while to keep them on their tows.
In my opinion...
Oh good. Another opinion from another glider jockey.
I think this accident was an unfortunate event
Yeah, sure.
One in which a very good driver got caught "changing the radio station" in one of those split second life and death moments
Whose ass did you pull THAT out of? I CALLED this one less than twelve days before the asshole bought it.
I probably sound stupid when I say this...
You've gone this far. How much worse could it get?
but I said it once before in a forum post that was asking the question
"What do you think about before you launch?"
I'm always scared shitless that the total asshole in front of me is gonna...
Something to bear in mind... the tug's weaklink is three strand.
For clarity... A normal single loop weaklink would be considered two. A tandem double loop is considered four.
In the tandem setup, the "weaklink" in the system is at the tug end, not the glider.
...that I'm gonna get the rope 'cause the asshole in front of me is totally cool with violating the crap out of FAA aerotowing regulations.
I always say I think that "I will/might die." - it is then that all my senses kick in and a lot the complacency goes out the window.
Too late dude. At that point what's most likely to kill you is already in place on your glider and the Dragonfly.
P.S.
The Bicycle release on the downtubes (which I use) does not make me feel secure that I will be able to release in a split second decision.
Good instincts.
Joe Gregor - 2004/09
There is no evidence that the pilot made an attempt to release from tow prior to the weak link break, the gate was found closed on the Wallaby-style tow release.
In a "shit has hit the fan" situation I'd probably would go for the barrel release...
Sure, why not? It's a backup release, right? It's there for the occasions you get about one out of ten times when the regular release doesn't work. So you should be just fine with this strategy.
...but this still requires a quick letting go of one hand.
Don't tell him that! Some of these points need to be illustrated on YouTube every once in a while for this to have a chance of sinking in to any significant extent.
P.S. Is anybody else wondering why this guy has an AT rating and where he got it?
Um... If you're going to start pretending that you're discussing his accident you need to remember that Zach was a very light pilot.
Yeah...
Davis Straub - 2013/02/10 00:29:35
The 1 G I was using was 75+180 = 255 pounds.
Tiny. Gliders don't get much lighter than that.
So what's your point?
- That you can't get the same results from the same weak link on gliders of different weights?
- So if I'm flying the same Rooney Link at 320 pounds I'm gonna be in better shape in that scenario because it'll protect me from a high angle of attack a lot better than it did him?
Keep talking, motherfucker. There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING you can say at this point that doesn't sink you more and faster.
P.S. Your dear friend spelled his name with a "k".
Because this has been beaten to death - google Tad Eareckson and try to read the mind-numbing BS. Most of the folks who have been towing for decades have worked this stuff out.
The reason for the vehemence of the response is they pile on to any AT accident, with no knowledge of the cause, and trot out the, if only he had a strong weaklink, nothing would have happened.
It's fine to want to work on better solutions to make us all safer by improving technology, it's ugly and inhuman to use the death of a really nice guy to advance your point... in case it wasn't obvious I agree with Bart and Jim, and no it's not a lack of english comprehension - he said there would have been a different outcome with a stronger weaklink.
Any thoughts on why...
Jim Rooney - 2013/02/22 02:56:08 UTC
Um... If you're going to start pretending that you're discussing his accident you need to remember that Zach was a very light pilot.
...Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney just broached the issue of pilot weight?
Think there's some small possibility that most of the folk who've been towing for decades have a little more working this stuff out to do?
Think maybe the Rooney Link DID have a little bearing on what happened at Quest that afternoon?
Deltaman,
Have you visited (one of) the Florida flight parks?
If not, it might be very worthwhile for someone who's aerotowing hang gliders in a business.
B.T.W I think you have a great location and I hope you get very successful in your venture.
deltaman - 2011/04/04 07:14:09 UTC
I'm a federal instructor and don't earn any money with tandem. We work for free, just to promote our sport. That's not my real job. I won't travel in US to learn where to put wl on the V-bridle system.
I don't think that Florida ever had a whole lot to teach you, Antoine. And I don't think there's a snowball's chance in hell of any of those assholes ever being able to learn anything from you.
Sylmar east team consisting of:
Jay Devorak - Jeff Chipman - Ken Andrews - Don Banas - Gregg Kendall
Saturday Morning
I setup the glider on the grass in front of the pilot meeting area (an outdoor fireplace). I was joined by Davis Straub, and a few Norwegian pilots. Still I'm ready to go, I haven't towed in two years. I'm confident but want to get this first tow out of the way.
By around noon, pilots begin to move their gliders out to the tow field, I follow. Four of the Sylmar East team are out there. Don is first to tow. I didn't see the tow but Don breaks a weak link and has less than a graceful landing. The wind conditions are very light and variable. It's switchy but not overly so. We are towing to the WNW and most of the tows are pretty smooth.
Don scores a bent downtube on his broken weaklink landing as well as a scuffed nose cone. Don has spares and goes about changing the VG side downtube (bummer).
See if you can advance up to some one-arm pushups.
