Training Accident
Especially for a crop-duster pilot on his ninth solo aerotow in dead morning air.Jim Rooney - 2009/09/10 00:11:24 UTC
Brainfreeze is instinct.
And you WOULD be a pretty good authority on taking actions before your brain processes things.It has nothing to do with "logical thought"... it's not a higher brain function... it's more like reflex. It happens before your brain processes things.
So what was it that was unexpected that exploded nearby Roy Messing at around 08:45 on 2008/08/31 at Whitewater?It's the "deer in the headlights" thing. Before even "Fight or Flight" kicks in, you hit Freeze-noFreeze. Note when something unexpected explodes near by, everyone's (and I mean everyone) body freezes up for a second. Think of brainfreeze as an extension of this.
- So I guess there's just no way to train students to be able to properly and immediately respond to all the hundreds of unexpected explosions that we can encounter in aerotowing launches.People aren't thinking "I shouldn't be doing anything"... they're NOT thinking. Once the "Danger" meter pegs, their brain locks and doesn't let go until "the danger" has passed.... unfortunately, this is generally after they've hit the earth and everything has stopped.
- Can you cite some incident reports involving reasonably well trained and/or experienced pilots to support this bullshit?
Yeah, but with the 130 pound Greenspot we all have increasing the safety of the towing operation, so what?This is why radios are of no use (when this happens).
Roy was using the Lockout Mountain Flight Park...
Ralph Sickinger - 2000/08/26 22:18:20 UTC
Under sled conditions (2000/08/26 18:00 EDT), I decided to borrow Brian Vant-Hull's glider instead of setting up my own, since we both fly the same type of glider. Brian's release is a different style, but I tested it twice during preflight to make sure I was familiar with it. After towing to altitude, Sunny waved me off; I pulled on the release (hard), but nothing happened! After the second failed attempt to release, I thought about releasing from the secondary, but before I could move my hand the tug stalled and started to fall; Sunny had no choice but to gun the engine in attempt to regain flying speed, but this resulted in a sudden and severe pull on the harness and glider; I was only able to pull on the release again, while simultaneously praying for the weak link to break. The release finally opened, and I was free of the tug.
...spinnaker shackle "release" which was such a piece of shit that even Ridgely stopped selling it I'm pretty sure before you showed up to stink up the place even more.Brian Vant-Hull - 2000/08/28 22:49:13 UTC
I purchased my release (the one Ralph used) at Lookout Mountain over a year ago, but never had any problems until the Ridgely Fly-In, where the same thing happened. I pulled three or four times on the release, then finally went to the secondary, by which time I was high above the tug and Sunny (is there a connection here?) was frantically waving me off.
So how come there isn't ONE WORD in the official USHGA fatality report published in the 2010/03 issue of the magazine - eighteen months after the incident - suggesting that the release may have been the slightest bit of an issue on this one?
Sunny's frantically waving Brian off while he's giving up and going to his bent pin "backup" release and getting stalled by Ralph - and the thought that Roy could've had an issue never crossed his mind?
How come we get to hear that he was flying a High Energy Cocoon and a Charly No Limit helmet but not what kind of release he had velcroed onto his downtube?
How come we don't get told what weak link he was using? Think there'd have been no mention of the weak link...
...if he'd been using a double loop of 130 pound Greenspot or a Tad-O-Link like the one that didn't break when it was supposed to and allowed Paul Tjaden to lock out and almost tear the wings off his glider?Towing Aloft - 1998/01
Three recent aerotowing accidents have occurred--one fatal. The common thread in all three was a lockout and the use of a much too heavy weak link. Tandem gliders are much less responsive than smaller gliders and the pilot in command often has a less than ideal position on the control bar. The situation shouldn't be compromised by an over-strength weak link.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec
- The EARLY VERSION of the new Lookout Release? What's that? I'm only aware of one version. There's nothing about more than one version in the current owner's manual and the current owner's manual is identical to the original manual. And I've never heard anything in the way of a recall or advisory or announcement of a new improved version.Jim Rooney - 2013/02/16 05:05:41 UTC
My general rule is "no funky shit". I don't like people reinventing the wheel and I don't like test pilots. Have I towed a few test pilots? Yup. Have I towed them in anything but very controlled conditions? Nope. It's a damn high bar. I've told more to piss off than I've told yes. I'll give you an example... I towed a guy with the early version of the new Lookout release. But the Tad-o-link? Nope.
And why would anyone wanna try to improve upon something that turned out this well:
on the first shot? Surely you must be mistaken.Lockout Mountain Flight Park - 2009/07/12
We are confident that with an ultimate load of 130 pounds at the release point, the new GT aerotow release works better than all cable releases that we have experience with. We feel that this design has exceeded our expectations in all regards. We hope the GT barrel release exceeds your expectations as well!
GT Manufacturing Inc. (GT) and Lookout Mountain Flight Park Inc. (LMFP) make no claim of serviceability of this tow equipment. There is no product liability insurance covering this gear and we do not warrant this gear as suitable for towing anything. We make no claim of serviceability in any way and recommend that you do not use this aerotow gear if you are not absolutely sure how to use it and or if you are unwilling to assume the risk.
- But wait a minute...
The early version of the new Lockout Release wasn't...
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22308
Better mouse trap(release)?
...homemade. It comes from a fine professional hang gliding establishment...Jim Rooney - 2010/12/16 18:47:05 UTC
A few years ago, I started refusing to tow people with home made gear.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=11497
Aerotow release options?
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846David W. Johnson - 2009/04/11 05:46:23 UTC
I have the loop style that LMFP makes. Matt is particular about the quality of the product that goes out and you will get something reliable. I was there one time when they had a new person make a batch of them. Matt was unhappy with the quality and cut them all in half to ensure they could not be sent out. I hope that tells you about their quality.
Is this a joke ?
Jim Rooney - 2011/09/02 19:41:27 UTC
Yes, go read that incident report.
Please note that the weaklink *saved* her ass. She still piled into the earth despite the weaklink helping her... for the same reason it had to help... lack of towing ability. She sat on the cart, like so many people insist on doing, and took to the air at Mach 5.
That never goes well.
Yet people insist on doing it.
...that's very particular about the quality of the product that goes out.Davis Straub - 2011/09/03 01:39:55 UTC
The problem was an inexperienced female student put on a cart that had the keel cradle way too high, so she was pinned to the cart. The folks working at Lookout who helped her were incompetent.
So why are you making such a big fucking deal about pulling an early version of the new Lockout Release? Neither you nor anybody else at Ridgely ever had the slightest problem with...
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=233
AT releases
... pulling the old Lockout Release - even though they considered it too much of a piece of shit to sell. And the new Lockout Mountain Flight Park Release - whatever version it may or may not be - is obviously superior to the old spinnaker shackle job 'cause it's been around for about four and a half to five years and Lockout's never even thought about going back.Brian Vant-Hull - 2005/03/07 14:33:14 UTC
I don't know where "banned from Ridgely" comes from, since several of us have been using the pull loop system for years. After I rerouted the attachment line I never had another release problem, and that was years ago. I can understand they wouldn't sell them - though I think with modification they are fine (preferable in my book for instant pull access).
Every piece of shit Ridgley sold - and sells - there had - and has - a high failure rate. I watched in astonishment as Sunny told a student that the Quallaby Release on the solo trainer was totally nonfunctional and to use just use the bent pin "backup" release. And it's a no brainer that you were towing that "system" without a whisper of protest.
And even if you CAN get to releases and make them work in emergency situations...
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up
...your cheap bridles wrap over half the time.Jim Rooney - 2009/11/02 18:58:13 UTC
Oh it happens.
I have, all the guys I work with have.
(Our average is 1 in 1,000 tows)
Oh yeah... an other fun fact for ya... ya know when it's far more likely to happen? During a lockout. When we're doing lockout training, the odds go from 1 in 1,000 to over 50/50.
You're assuming that any release you tow...
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=16384
Tow Release Malfunction
...WILL fail. And...Jim Rooney - 2010/03/26 20:54:43 UTC
Bent pin releases are indeed very very reliable. But 100%? Nope. It's exceptionally rare, but they jam. All mechanical things do.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22660
What can be learned from this "scooter" towing accident?
...you won't get anywhere near one that doesn't.Jim Rooney - 2011/02/06 18:35:13 UTC
The minute someone starts telling me about their "perfect"system, I start walking away.
Pilot skill means absolutely nothing...
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?
...in the long run and a Rooney Link...Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 10:40:24 UTC
Am I "certain" about anything?
Nope.
However, some things get real obvious when you're doing them all the time. One is that weaklinks do in fact save people's asses.
You're 100% onto it... relying on the skill of the pilot is a numbers game that you'll lose at some point.
...is just Hail Mary if you're down in the kill zone.I find that so many people do not appreciate how fast and furious lockouts can happen.
They're exponential in nature.
Twice the time doesn't equate to twice the "bad"... it's four times the "bad"... then 16... it gets dramatic fast.
Is a weaklink going to save your ass? Who knows? But it's nice to stack the deck in your favour.
The whole thing's just a big dice roll every time we get on a cart but the one absolute certainty we all have is that whatever's going on back there...
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links
...you can fix it by giving us the rope (as tug releases are, obviously, exempt from the All-Mechanical-Things-Fail Rule (and the Dragonfly bridles are incapable of wrapping)).Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 13:47:23 UTC
Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.
Aerotowing is just one big dice roll but anybody who...
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec
...hasn't been at an around all this plenty long enough to understand what's what and who's who and wants to load things in his favor by doing anything other than dumbing down the Rooney Link isn't really concerned about safety because if he really were...Jim Rooney - 2013/02/15 06:48:18 UTC
Naw.
Davis has been at an around all this plenty long enough to understand what's what and who's who.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks
...he'd be staying home and playing checkers.Jim Rooney - 2013/03/05 05:15:25 UTC
Nonsense.
It's completely about convenience.
People like to argue about it and in their arguments, they dig up rationalizations of it not being about convenience, but sorry... it very much is about convenience.
Take if from the other angle... if it were about safety... if you are truly concerned about your safety... why are you towing? Why are the people that are arguing about weaklinks towing?
The answer of course is that it's not actually about "safety".
People get pissed off not because the weaklink breaking made their lives scary... it made it a pain in the ass. They missed the thermal. They had to relight. Etc.
I'm not saying that these are invalid feelings.
I'm saying that they're not about safety.
That way when a weak link breaks on you, ITS A NON-ISSUE. Genius huh??? 
![]http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident3.jpg](%5Dhttp%3A//ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident3.jpg){kind=link}
