Releases

Steve Davy · Post by **Steve Davy** » 2014/03/05 23:56:51 UTC

Is it just my imagination, or are the Jack Asshole forum idiots getting even dumber?

Tad Eareckson · Post by **Tad Eareckson** » 2014/03/06 12:06:05 UTC

Compare/Contrast this Ollie Chitty thread with:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=11497
Aerotow release options?

currently sitting four up from the bottom of Page 251 and 21013 hits, locked because the primary Jack Show forum rule:

Never disagree with the Administrator and kick his stupid sleazy ass.

was flagrantly violated. There were two people in the discussion who'd actually done something in the way of hardware innovation and they're both listed - along with Bob - in this:

http://www.hanggliding.org/wiki/HG_ORG_Mission_Statement
HG ORG Mission Statement - Hang Gliding Wiki

HangGliding.Org Rules and Policies

No posts or links about Bob K, Scott C Wise, Tad Eareckson and related people, or their material. ALL SUCH POSTS WILL BE IMMEDIATELY DELETED. These people are poison to this sport and are permanently banned from this site in every possible way imaginable.

amendment to the Jack Show's Constitution.

Davis Show Page 187, six up from the bottom, 8249 hits:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=553
Weak Links vs Strong, but foolproof release?

Response to the 2005/01/09 Robin Strid murder/suicide.

Purge all the triple digit IQers out of the system, the next rank - people motivated in the right direction - gets worn down and throws in the towel, the dregs remain with a lock on control of the sport.

Looking through the archives of the forums or the magazine:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30829
When did HG mag stop publishing letters in every issue?

this process of reverse evolution is so glaringly obvious.

Oh well, if that's the best we can do then watching idiots get their faces rearranged and necks broken is a lot better than nothing.

Tad Eareckson · Post by **Tad Eareckson** » 2014/03/06 14:24:24 UTC

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30872
Nasty AT Launch Cart Accident - Face Plant

Craig Hassan - 2014/03/05 11:34:49 UTC

As always there is not one single item to blame.

Sounds a lot like the reports on the Zack Marzec fatality. There was not one single issue to blame. Everything he'd been using and doing had already been perfected by Quest. Sometimes shit just happens but that's part of the attraction.

The saddles on a cart should hold the glider far enough above the frame of the cart that contact is difficult.

DIFFICULT? You can do it but you gotta push down real hard?

This one looks like you sit down between the cross members of the cart. It gives very little room to for less than wings level exit.

Or EVEN wings level exit - like Ollie's almost certainly was, given that everybody's going on and on about what a hot pilot he is and there's been not so much as a whisper suggesting otherwise.

So what else is to blame? The "release" maybe? Guess not 'cause Quest has perfected it and everybody uses it.

Asshole.

Christopher Albers - 2014/03/05 12:11:30 UTC
Lawrenceville, Georgia

Looks like a good reason to wear a full-face helmet.

And releases within easy reach and the fact that the hook-in check gives false senses of security are good reasons to do lotsa pull-ups between the weekends.

Glidestone - 2014/03/05 13:25:18 UTC
Rochester

Hard to tell with this point of view, but I can't help wondering if the tow line is above or below the control bar. It looks like it's under the bar and lifted the right side.

- Don't you think he'd have known that immediately and reported it on his video page?
- Nobody EVER does that.

The pilot looks to release the rope with his left hand very very close to his right hand still on the bar.

British Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association Technical Manual - 2003/04

On tow the Pilot in Command must have his hand actually on the release at all times. 'Near' the release is not close enough! When you have two hands completely full of locked-out glider, taking one off to go looking for the release guarantees that your situation is going to get worse before it gets better.

soaring - 2014/03/05 13:42:32 UTC
Europe

I know I'm cursing in the church here but aren't the WW wheels - although shiny and made of aluminium - actually a shitty set of wheels?

- In the long run they're a helluva lot better than NO wheels. Sometimes you just need a little edge to make the difference from coming out smelling like a rose or getting killed or quaded.

- What's your point? Why are you talking about the fuckin' wheels? The cradle design is crap and cradle designs that aren't crap have handled this wheel design for tens of thousands of launches no problem.

- They look cool but are simply too small to be of any practical use?

How much practical use is:
- whatever piece of shit Ollie was using as a primary release
- USHGA's accident reporting system
- Lauren Tjaden, the Weak Link of Quest Air
- four extra feet of secondary / one point bridle length
- USHGA's requirement for a tug capable of delivering a rated thrust of at least 250 pounds when there's a:
-- loop of 130 pound test fishing line on the end of your bridle
-- driver in front of you who can fix whatever's going on back there by giving you the rope
- assurance by:
-- Davis' that he's never had a serious problem with a Davis Link, just an inconvenience now and then
-- Diver Bob Maloney that his thin Vectran aerotow bridles are incapable of wrapping
-- Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney that he and his buddies just *might* know what they're doing and talking about
- Paul Hurless's two point aerotow release design
- anything Dennis Pagen has ever written
- going upright for better roll control
- dying doing what you love most
- praying for someone's full and speedy recovery
- tandem:
-- weak link break recovery training
-- Cone of Safety training
- a:
-- backup loop
-- locking carabiner
-- quick link safetying a parachute bridle to harness suspension
-- hook-in:
--- ribbon on one of your nose wires
--- plaque fifteen feet back from the edge of a four hundred foot escarpment
-- suspension spreader snugged down to two inches above the carabiner
-- bend in a parachute pin used in a Bailey Release
-- Cloud 9 weak link on the top end of a wrapped two point bridle
-- Hewett Bridle
-- Lockout Mountain Flight Park Release not warranted as suitable for towing anything
-- release actuator within easy reach when one needs to release
-- hook knife backup release
-- Rooney Link emergency release
-- Davis Link which blows six times in a row in light morning conditions
-- four strand glider weak link behind a three strand tug weak link
-- glider manufacturer which:
--- doesn't design its gliders to be towed
--- instructs us to always use an appropriate weak link with a finished length of 1.5 inches or less
-- full face helmet when your Rooney Link has just dumped you into an unrecoverable whipstall at 150 feet
-- parachute jammed in the container of a competition pod because of damage sustained in a tumble
- the:
-- hang check you just did at the back of the ramp
-- Dragonfly's tow mast breakaway
-- FAA's aerotowing weak link regulation
-- first half of the LZ when you're aiming for a traffic cone in its middle
-- achievement of having landed on one's feet within a 25 foot radius of a traffic cone three times in a row
-- pair of wheels on your basetube when you're lying under your glider with a broken arm after a flare executed one second too late
-- element of risk in your attraction to the sport

- They stick out in front of the glider and as seen in the video can get caught on the trolley?

On THAT trolley.

How 'bout the reverse taper on a spinnaker shackle gate?

See any possible issues with that?

http://ozreport.com/9.009
2005 Worlds

Davis Straub - 2005/01/11

Rohan Holtkamp did an analysis of the accident, in particular the bridle and weaklink, which never broke. The weaklink was caught on the release mechanism, a standard spinnaker release found on bridle systems used at Lookout Mountain, Moyes, Wallaby Ranch, and Quest Air. The release clamp has an arm that is thicker at the release point and this held onto the weaklink which consisted of multiple loops of thick line.

This type of release mechanism has been banned (at least for a short while) from the Worlds at Hay.

Think that banning it for a short while from the 2005 Worlds at Hay was a sufficient remedy to the problem?

What do you think is the more serious issue? Ollie getting his face rearranged because of an obvious crappy design of one pair of cradles on one launch dolly or a Norwegian national champion getting killed instantly by the core release mechanism in use on something not far below a hundred percent of two point aerotow flights?

Tad Eareckson · Post by **Tad Eareckson** » 2014/03/06 16:18:36 UTC

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30872
Nasty AT Launch Cart Accident - Face Plant

Dana Harris - 2014/03/05 14:13:18 UTC
Western Massachusetts

It doesn't look like the wheels caught the cart. It looks like his instruments did. You can see a white extension well in front of the left wheel that is what caught the cart. Vario? Pod?

No...

05-215
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7406/12980976575_d4a5b08283_o.png

But what would it matter? Don't launch dollies need to be designed for gliders as they're built and configured to fly and do what they need and want to do?

And on that subject...

http://ozreport.com/5.126
Flytec Dragonfly

USAFlytec - 2001/07/14

Steve Kroop - Russell Brown - Bob Lane - Jim Prahl - Campbell Bowen

The tail section of the Dragonfly is designed so that it can accept in-line as well as lateral loads. Furthermore the mast extension, which is part of the tow system, is designed to break away in the event of excessive in-line or lateral loads. The force required to cause a breakaway is roughly equivalent to the force required to break the double weaklink used on the tail bridle. More simply put, the mast would break away long before any structural damage to the aircraft would occur.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question

Jim Rooney - 2008/11/23 19:42:44 UTC

The tug uses 3 strand and so all this talk about using a stronger one is academic.
You don't get to have one that's equal or stronger.

See we've got a system that has an extremely solid track record.

Jim Rooney - 2008/11/23 22:28:30 UTC

If you can find one, more power to you.

Just keep in mind if you do, you need to be weaker than the tug's link... not equal to. You will need to talk it over with any tug pilot that you tow behind. Anything less is unethical. And just as you have the right to refuse a tow from any tugger, they have the right to refuse to tow you... for any reason what so ever.

Jim Rooney - 2008/11/24 18:54:27 UTC

I'm confused. I never said the tug's ass was endangered. That's why we use 3strand at the tug's end. Using 4 strand can rip things off (it's happened).

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15716
weak links

Davis Straub - 2009/04/26 22:05:31 UTC

Tad doesn't agree, but the rest of us no doubt do, that we are in a partnership with the tug pilot, and that he needs to be protected also, and therefore our weaklink has to be less than his.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Davis Straub - 2011/08/28 15:26:28 UTC

Then again, Russell Brown had us double up behind him after six breaks in a row at Zapata. We couldn't figure out why we had so many breaks so quickly. Maybe just coincidence.

Shouldn't the fucking Dragonfly, its fucking drivers, and its fucking operators be designed to tow the glider - rather than to do things the way they've been doing them for a quarter century, which is to configure the glider to accommodate the fucking Dragonfly, its fucking drivers, and its fucking operators?

From this sleazy advisory:

http://www.ushpa.aero/advisory.asp?id=1
USHPA - Safety Advisory #1

USHGA - 2006/03/15

Safety Notice

HG Tandem Aerotow Operations

It was noticed over a number of years there have been a number of fatalities to participants in hang glider aerotow instruction. The president of the USHPA, therefore, formed an Ad Hoc Joint Committee of the chairs of Safety and Training, Tandem and Towing to investigate this, appointing the Chair of Safety and Training to preside. Tandem instructors Matt Taber and David Glover were invited to participate.

This committee reviewed a number of possible causes for aerotow tandem fatalities. One particular possible cause stood out as predominate. This was the common belief that when a glider gets low on tow the pilot can safely push out and let the glider climb up to the level of the tow plane safely because the glider will not stall under tow.

This issue is so important that this committee and the towing committee have recommended that the following message be sent to all aerotow pilots and all Aero-Tug pilots with a particular emphasis to aerotow tandem pilots.

Experiences in hang glider tandem flight using aero-tow launch along with analysis of accidents and incidents that have occurred during such flight strongly suggest, for safety reasons, the following cautions be observed.

If the pilot of the tandem glider finds that he/she is too low behind the tug and slow enough that the glider will not climb without pushing out pass trim, then the pilot should pull in and release rather than trying to push out and climb to the tug altitude. Though pushing out to climb to the tug altitude has been a common practice usually accomplished without incident, there is a deep underlying danger in doing this. Should the tandem glider become unattached from the tug during this maneuver, the nose high attitude of the tandem glider attained while doing this will cause a very abrupt stall which will result in a much greater altitude loss than one would expect (possibly more than 750 feet). The most extreme cases may result in structural failure of the glider.

Towing tandems requires extra awareness on the part of the tug pilots, particularly in the early part of the tow to help the tandem pilot avoid the development of critical situations. Prior to the start of the tow, proper tow speeds based on the gross weight of the tandem glider should be determined. Greater total weight will require correspondingly higher tow speeds. It is CRITICAL to understand that the towed hang glider is at risk when the tow is slow and the glider is low. When towing a tandem glider, the tug pilot should fly the appropriate airspeed to keep the tandem glider in the proper position and if there is any doubt the tug pilot should fly slightly faster and avoid flying slightly slow. The tug pilot should avoid pulling up abruptly and leaving the tandem glider low. If the glider is low on tow, the tug pilot should attempt to speed up and to descend to the altitude of the towed glider, releasing the tow rope only as a last resort.

These points are crucial to the safety of aerotow tandem flight. However, this letter is addressed to all aerotow rated pilots and tug pilots, not just to tandem pilots. This is because in consulting with pilots about this issue, we found that this problem is exhibited under the same circumstances with solo gliders as well. Because of the lighter wing loading of the solo gliders, the reaction of a solo glider is not as severe, but can still be violent.

Flying with a tandem passenger is a special privilege which the FAA allows us to grant to qualified pilots. These pilots are supposed to be highly skilled. We expect tandem flights to be safer than solo flights, not more dangerous. Safety records do not currently seem to support this expectation. We expect tandem flights under the rules of the USHPA to be conducted in such a way that this expectation is realized.

David G. Broyles, Chairman of Safety and Training Committee
Steve Kroop, Chairman of Tow Committee
Paul Voight, Chairman of Tandem Committee

issued by a bunch of sleazy USHGA/Industry players solely as a consequence of a lawsuit by surviving family members, it's abundantly clear that Dragonflies have killed hang gliders - including tandem hang gliders with highly experienced USHGA qualified aerotow instructors on board.

It's also abundantly clear that no out-of-position hang glider has ever in the history of modern aerotowing killed a tug - or even put one in a dangerously compromised position at altitude. The only thing that kills tugs is tugs.

So given that flying a hang glider being towed by a tug is infinitely more dangerous, especially when equipped with the kind of crap that Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey passes off as equipment (see Zack Marzec fatality - 2012/02/02), than flying a tug towing a hang glider and requires magnitudes more skill and judgment to be done safely, why are we tolerating a brain dead total douchebag Dragonfly jockey who proved he was incapable of cutting it on hang gliders at Coronet Peak on 2006/02/21...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question

Jim Rooney - 2008/11/24 05:18:15 UTC

Well, I'm assuming there was some guff about the tug pilot's right of refusal?
Gee, didn't think we'd have to delve into "pilot in command"... I figured that one's pretty well understood in a flying community.

It's quite simple.
The tug is a certified aircraft... the glider is an unpowered ultralight vehicle. The tug pilot is the pilot in command. You are a passenger. You have the same rights and responsibilities as a skydiver.
It's a bitter pill I'm sure, but there you have it.

...declaring himself to be Pilot In Command of OUR aircraft and us to be just a notch up from baggage? These motherfuckers are just a notch above the expendable but reusable solid fuel rocket boosters used to help get the Shuttle into orbit.

No wheels would have helped in that impact.

Wheels are landing gear - not crashing gear. May help in a crash, may not. Best not to do the stupid shit it requires to put you in a position to increase the size of the database.

The speed and angle were already too steep for any of the normal wheels to work.

Couldn't POSSIBLY have been.

Towing Aloft - 1998/01

Weak links very clearly will provide protection from excessive angles of attack, high bank turns and the like for this form of towing.

http://www.wallaby.com/aerotow_primer.php
Aerotow Primer for Experienced Pilots

Wallaby Ranch - 2014/03/06

If you fail to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon), the weak link will break before you can get into too much trouble.

If you fail to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon), the weak link will break before you can get into too much trouble. Should've been able to roll in level just fine.

Tad Eareckson · Post by **Tad Eareckson** » 2014/03/06 19:07:27 UTC

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30872
Nasty AT Launch Cart Accident - Face Plant

David W. Johnson - 2014/03/05 14:43:52 UTC
Huntsville, Alabama

Anyone know why he had to reach over with his left hand?

07-300
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7441/12980980635_a22762812d_o.png

Yeah. 'Cause he's an asshole. A REAL pilot will use a release like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh3-uZptNw0

such that he doesn't hafta reach over anywhere with either hand and can continue being a PILOT rather than a dope on a rope.

My release slips over a couple of fingers.

My release uses a button snugged in BETWEEN a couple of fingers...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8306300488/

...such that there's no fuckin' way my equipment is gonna be the cause of any fingers getting broken in a crash on launch.

I just twitch my right hand and release.

- Have you ever considered using a similar concept but with a release...

Matt Taber - 2009/07/12

GT Manufacturing Inc. (GT) and Lookout Mountain Flight Park Inc. (LMFP) make no claim of serviceability of this tow equipment. There is no product liability insurance covering this gear and we do not warrant this gear as suitable for towing anything.

...warranted for towing something?

- He's flying one point, dude. You can't have a one point release actuator mounted on the basetube without having to throw a lot of sloppy draggy crap into the equation.

Glidestone - 2014/03/05 14:50:50 UTC

I assume because he's pulling in with his right hand?

It doesn't matter. There's no disadvantage to taking either hand off the basetube during an emergency to hit a release actuator - regardless of the control pressure you're exerting.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Viktor Moroz - 2013/02/09 17:26:52 UTC

Other thing I know: a lot of pilots are afraid to take away one hand form a bar while the bar pressure is scary high. They think the glider immediately will do something bad. It's a delusion.

Any undesirable reaction from the glider will be nothing more than a delusion and nobody's ever been so much as scratched as consequence of a delusion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bj-qBsETXPg
Aerotow launch faliure

Oliver Chitty - 2014/03/02

Aerotow launch faliure
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bj-qBsETXPg
Oliver Chitty - 2014/03/02
dead

A de-gloved lower lip, ten stitches and six scans in hospital later, lots of bruising but still not knocked out to date!

All these injuries and the glider damage were totally delusional.

15-413
http://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3141/12981414774_e6ddd85c13_o.png

If he'd just understood that he could've just hopped on the cart again for a relight.

Is that because the tow rope is under the control bar on the right side??

No.

David W. Johnson - 2014/03/05 14:54:54 UTC

Looks to me like he is using Protow.

Of course the is. You can tell he's a real pro by the extent of the delusional injuries and damage he sustained on this one.

I haven't used this...

Of course not. You're not a pro. You're using one of those three point bridals that almost got Davis's fuckin' neck broken when he was using a shit launch dolly with no means of releasing himself.

...so I don't know how the release is run.

Who gives a rat's ass? The motherfucker's dead as Steve Elliot for the purpose of the exercise.

I can't even tell for sure that he hit the release. It could have been a weak link on his harness.

- Coincidentally at the precise instant he gets his left hand where he wants it?

- Make it a weak link on his harness. That'll bring a great measure of joy to Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney's heart 'cause he'll be able to use this crash as an example of the Rooney Link increasing the safety of the towing operation.

- Any chance it could've been a weak link between a bridle end and a release - where a sane person installs one? Just kidding.

- He obviously wasn't using a weak link because it didn't break before he could get into too much trouble.

David W. Johnson - 2014/03/05 15:03:45 UTC

Really confused now.

That's one helluva lot better than...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=16265
weaklinks

Kinsley Sykes - 2010/03/18 19:42:19 UTC

In the old threads there was a lot of info from a guy named Tad. Tad had a very strong opinion on weak link strength and it was a lot higher than most folks care for. I'd focus carefully on what folks who tow a lot have to say. Or Jim Rooney who is an excellent tug pilot. I tow with the "park provided" weak links. I think they are 130 pound Greenspot.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/11 19:22:18 UTC

Of course not... it's Asshole-ese.

Sorry, I'm sick and tired of all these soap box bullshit assheads that feel the need to spout their shit at funerals. I just buried my friend and you're seizing the moment to preach your bullshit? GO FUCK YOURSELF!!!!!!!!

I can barely stand these pompus asswipes on a normal day.

...being confident in the opinion of some shithead who tells you he knows what he's talking about because he drives a tug up and down all weekend long every weekend.

I looked up a protow bridle.

Did you find out what its specs are, who named it, and what experience, skills, qualifications one needs to be able to fly it safely?

Uses one or two barrel releases just like my rig. But those are close to the harness near the chest.

They can't be extended out to be...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8313526097/

...as close as possible to the tow ring? How come?

Not near the wrist where his left hand went.

No. It can ONLY be really close to the chest:

http://ozreport.com/forum/files/2010_rob_kells_memorial_competition_youtubeequaloj4xu_u_cmy_3m55s_708.png

Otherwise it doesn't meet the high and exacting standards of the United States Protow Association and is just another cheap knockoff that can't be considered safe to use.

He was even looking at his right wrist like something wasn't working.

Like something wasn't working?

04-200
http://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3162/12980962685_5786637b33_o.png

Everything was going great but his protow wasn't working?

"FUCK!!! The goddam cabin humidity gauge is on the fritz - AGAIN!"

Not sure what happened. I've had my release fail...

No...

Ralph Sickinger - 2000/08/26 22:18:20 UTC

Under sled conditions (2000/08/26 18:00 EDT), I decided to borrow Brian Vant-Hull's glider instead of setting up my own, since we both fly the same type of glider. Brian's release is a different style, but I tested it twice during preflight to make sure I was familiar with it. After towing to altitude, Sunny waved me off; I pulled on the release (hard), but nothing happened! After the second failed attempt to release, I thought about releasing from the secondary, but before I could move my hand the tug stalled and started to fall; Sunny had no choice but to gun the engine in attempt to regain flying speed, but this resulted in a sudden and severe pull on the harness and glider; I was only able to pull on the release again, while simultaneously praying for the weak link to break. The release finally opened, and I was free of the tug.

Brian Vant-Hull - 2000/08/28 22:49:13 UTC

I purchased my release (the one Ralph used) at Lookout Mountain over a year ago, but never had any problems until the Ridgely Fly-In, where the same thing happened. I pulled three or four times on the release, then finally went to the secondary, by which time I was high above the tug and Sunny (is there a connection here?) was frantically waving me off.

...shit. How 'bout...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=11497
Aerotow release options?

David W. Johnson - 2009/04/11 05:46:23 UTC

I have the loop style that LMFP makes. Matt is particular about the quality of the product that goes out and you will get something reliable. I was there one time when they had a new person make a batch of them. Matt was unhappy with the quality and cut them all in half to ensure they could not be sent out. I hope that tells you about their quality.

...the color of your cable housing? Was that OK?

...and went to the barrel.

- Really?

I just twitch my right hand and release.

I thought you could just twitch your right and release using this high quality piece of hardware from Matt. Have you tried...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22540
LMFP release dysfunction

deltaman - 2011/07/14 08:33:59 UTC

LMFP RELEASE
U$139.95
http://estore.hanglide.com/Aerotow_Primary_Release_p/14-9004.htm

After several dysfunctions encountered by tandem, using a V-bridle and a 145kg wl on the apex, so a maximum load of 83kg on this primary release, I sent 3 times this email to fly@hanglide.com (LMFP contact) without any answer !!! :
Hello

I recently purchased one of your Aerotow Primary Releases for use in aerotowing tandem gliders. We conduct a tandem aerotowing operation just south of Paris, France.

We have been having considerable trouble releasing when the line is under high tension. It takes considerable effort to pull the Rope-Loop release, often requiring two or three violent tugs on the loop. Obviously, this is a considerable safety concern.

One possible reason for the difficulty is the fact that there is some play in the barrel, which does not fit 100% snugly against the main block. When there is tension on the line, the release catch tilts the barrel very slightly, which may have the effect of increasing friction and causing the barrel to catch (there is very slight burring on the main release block as a result of this tendancy).

I would appreciate any feedback you may have on this problem. If this is not an isolated case, and is in fact a design flaw that you have rectified in subsequent models, I would like to know the procedure for acquiring the updated model. If it is simply a problem with this particular item then I would like to have it replaced.

I look forward to your reply.

Regards

...the new improved version?

- Have you ever considered what the possible consequences might be if the bottom end of the bridle wrapped...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11591
Where to put the weaklink - the HGFA rules

Rohan Holtkamp - 2008/04/21

Once again history has shown us that this thread-through system can hook up and the hang glider remains being towed by the keel only, with the bridle well out of reach of even a hook knife. I know of just one pilot to survive this type of hook-up, took him some twelve months to walk again though.

...at the tow ring?

I never took my eyes off the tug. I doubt he would have needed to either.

Yeah, you certainly wouldn't wanna take your eyes off the tug when you're a fraction of a second away from slamming in and getting your face demolished. That could be very upsetting.

Tad Eareckson · Post by **Tad Eareckson** » 2014/03/06 20:13:33 UTC

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30872
Nasty AT Launch Cart Accident - Face Plant

Dave Hopkins - 2014/03/05 15:09:10 UTC

The wheels are what caused the problem.

Combined with the fact that he was such a crappy pilot that he felt compelled to fly with wheels.

The left wheel got caught on the cart. The wheel being small and in the corner and projecting in front of the cart was the problem .

Maybe if we could get Wills Wing to make wheels so small they'd be incapable of getting caught.

The pilot did a great job of releasing...

He really did. That's probably the best job anybody's ever done using a Bailey Release in an emergency situation

...and protecting him self.

Yeah. Not having a full face helmet he was able to use his actual full face as a crumple zone to protect his brain and spinal cord.

Dave's probably this country's top pilot in the field of crash survival and doesn't hand out compliments like that to just anybody. Righteous stuff there, Ollie!

David W. Johnson - 2014/03/05 15:16:32 UTC

It looks to me like a combination of the wheels with that design of cradle. I have those wheels.

Take them off! IMMEDIATELY!!! Ya just never know when you might find yourself on a pair of cradles of that design.

I've never had any issue or potential issue.

It's just a matter of time, dude. Just like stronglinks. Only later, when we're visiting you guys in the hospital can you begin to hear what we've been telling you all along.

I've always had a cradle that kept my bar lifted above the aluminum frame.

Don't do it. Get rid of those wheels. The risk is just too great.

That cradle is much lower than any I have used.

But those high cradles are dangerous because if you stall off the cart you have a lot farther to fall. Everything's a tradeoff and there's no 13
. If there were we'd all be using it already.

Dave Hopkins - 2014/03/05 15:26:25 UTC

Of course if the line were under the bar this would be the real cause of the accident.

What accident?

If the pilot...

What pilot?

...did truck or winch towing he might make that mistake...

What about the mistake he made using a piece of shit release within easy reach when there were several cheap bulletproof options available)?

...but the dolly helpers should have caught it?

Like the dolly helpers...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=18777
Accident - Broken Jaw - Full Face HG Helmet

Keith Skiles - 2010/08/28 05:20:01 UTC

Last year, at LMFP I saw an incident in aerotow that resulted in a very significant impact with the ground on the chest and face. Resulted in a jaw broken in several places and IIRC some tears in the shoulder.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TTTFlymail/message/11545
Cart stuck incidents

Keith Skiles - 2011/06/02 19:50:13 UTC

I witnessed the one at Lookout. It was pretty ugly. Low angle of attack, too much speed and flew off the cart like a rocket until the weak link broke, she stalled and it turned back towards the ground.

Like the Lookout Mountain Flight Park dolly helpers...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Davis Straub - 2011/09/03 01:39:55 UTC

I think that I know the one that is being referred to.

The problem was an inexperienced female student put on a cart that had the keel cradle way too high, so she was pinned to the cart. The folks working at Lookout who helped her were incompetent.

...were Looking Out for this student?

It looks like he had a lever in front of the bar to the release .

Yeah, right.

I like that ! Reaching back to pull a barrel on our chest puts us in a bad position to protect our head in a low crash like this.

Yeah, you'd be the one to know, Dave.

Walt Conklin - 2014/03/05 16:30:58 UTC
Montana

Jonathan,

If you would pass on our well wishes to Ollie, it would be much appreciated.

Fuck this asshole. How 'bout...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=11497
Aerotow release options?

Walt Conklin - 2009/05/03 16:19:44 UTC

Very nice engineering, Tad. I can see a lot of thought went into the systems and there is always room to "build a better mousetrap".
Every system we use in this sport can be improved on. Look where we progressed from since I first flew in 71'.
There is always room for change, keep at it.

...some of you motherfuckers passing on some well wishes to ol' poison to the sport over here for giving people the technology to prevent stupid shit like this?

Just glad it turned out much better than expected.

What exactly was he expecting when he got on that cart? To get quaded? I'da thunk he'd have been expecting to tow up a couple of thousand feet and land with his face and glider in the same shapes they were when he took off.

Heal well Ollie.

Yeah. Maybe Jonathan can give him some tips in that department.

Dennis Cavagnaro - 2014/03/05 16:48:52 UTC

Its above the base bar. The pilot seems to bank the glider trying to wiggle the wheel out.

Bullshit.

That's is a mistake that close and slow to the ground.

That's is a mistake that that you've have assumed that he made? So now we can all assume it and start operating on that assumption?

I wonder if he would have been better served if he kept the glider level, lifted the cart into the air and then with more speed and altitude knocked the cart off.

He'd have been better served by safe designs of the cradles and release. Stop wasting everybody's time.

My thoughts...

Yeah, Dennis. Probably the best you can do.

Jack Barth - 2014/03/05 16:58:09 UTC

Reviews

The pilot knows what went wrong.

You don't fly anymore.Therefore you obviously have nothing useful to contribute.Shut the fuk up.

The line was definitely above bar and so were the instruments. The wheel was definitely suspect. Could have attempted to lift the cart, but I believe he made a great decision to abort before things became even uglier.

After the really crappy decision he made not to use equipment that would've allowed him to abort before the video was started.

And now I'm wondering if the video wasn't started when/because the person with the camera noticed a situation developing. If that's, in fact, the case, it really speaks volumes about the ability of people to react quickly based upon the quality of their equipment.

Very glad damage wasn't worse. Hoping for speedy recovery.

Bullshit. The worse these assholes get fucked up the better the prospects we have for fixing the underlying problems.

NMERider - 2014/03/05 17:55:08 UTC

Thanks Walt.
I will be sure to pass your kind sentiments Ollie's way.

Fuck you, Jonathan.

Tad Eareckson · Post by **Tad Eareckson** » 2014/03/07 04:50:26 UTC

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30872
Nasty AT Launch Cart Accident - Face Plant

Fred - 2014/03/05 18:32:14 UTC

Bravo to the pilot, video producer, and OP.

- Fuck the dope on the rope, thank you camera person - how 'bout doing it at a decent resolution next time, and fuck you Jonathan - we need MY releases a lot more than we need YOUR drag chutes.

- I'd plug your drag chutes if I were to see a video of someone who did a reasonably good approach get surprised by a tailwind or unnoticed downslope. You conspicuously ignore the stuff the Russians, Paul Farina, Steve Kinsley, Joe Street, Antoine Saraf, T** at K*** S****** have done.

Videos like this are key for a greater knowledge base to enhance the overall safety of the sport for everyone.

Bull fucking shit.

Fred - 2014/03/05 18:32:58 UTC

CAL, I'd say your average high altitude launch is more risky than your average cart launch.

Times twenty. And a defective carts and shit releases don't get to count themselves in the averages. Likewise for inadequate or missing wire crews and hook-in check skippers on the slope stuff.

Dennis Cavagnaro - 2014/03/05 18:46:10 UTC

The other issue is those wheels suck.

The cart and the "release" suck.

They extend outside the control frame...

Yeah? And? The fuckin' Quallaby release extends outside a perfectly hollow control frame tube and stops extending before it reaches a point at which it's of the slightest use when someone really needs to release. How many people have died because of Wills Wing's wheels design?

...who wants that?

Just a small fraction of the number of assholes who insist on the backup loops that Wills Wing didn't used to ship.

They are also too small.

Too small for WHAT? ANY wheel is too small for SOMETHING.

If you go with wheels get them inside your CF and large enough for less then a putting green application.

- Why do they need to go inside the control frame? So you can more safely fly crappy launch dolly designs?

- But it's perfectly OK if you don't get wheels at all. Bare basetube or eight inch pneumatic Finsterwalders. Nothing in between is acceptable. You're not allowed to make intermediate safety/performance tradeoffs.

- Is it OK to fly one point if you're a pro?

- What percentage of flights in your neck of the woods don't end in putting greens like the Kagel and AJX?

Scot Huber - 2014/03/05 21:41:59 UTC
Santa Rosa

My guess is the pilot released the bungees holding him in the cradle too early, maybe there was a little right crosswind and the right wing lifted and lowered the left wheel enough as it came forward thus catching it on the cart.

And if that's what happened? The cradles are still too low and the release still stinks on ice.

Hard to tell with the video starting after the wheel is already caught and the right wing is lifting and turning him sideways.

Locking him out.

Looks like the right front wire is what caught his lip and shredded it. Solution to that of course is a full face helmet which would have probably saved him from any injury.

Probably, maybe. But an actual aerotow release would've CERTAINLY prevented the crash.

I've had my front wires cut deeply into my full face helmet with no injuries to my face.

This crash was one hundred percent avoidable - even with the cart issue. Just like this one:

Bob Buxton accident
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2oeb0nNIKs
Scott Buxton - 2013/02/10
dead
http://www.kitestrings.org/post5902.html#p5902
016-04308
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3799/13746342624_c9b015f814_o.png

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2809/13746340634_a74b33d285_o.png
022-04610

would've been a nonissue - even with the misrouted bridle and front enders asleep at the switch. Dope on rope syndrome.

The solution to the accident would be to hold on to the bungees till the cart is lifting with the wing and then let it fall free...

Give it a fuckin' rest. Fix the goddam core problems.

...possibly these cradles were a bit low.

POSSIBLY? A BIT?

NMERider - 2014/03/05 22:04:41 UTC

Full face helmets with visor down during launch and fly the cart off the ground then drop it.

Bullshit, Jonathan. Watch a bunch of regular aerotowers at a high volume operation. NOBODY does that.

http://vimeo.com/25631937

It's not necessary and it makes for ridiculously long retrievals.

Don't release until you have enough speed to glide long enough to set up a safe landing...

You don't mean a SAFE landing. You mean a crisp standup no-stepper. Anybody who's got enough speed to lift off the cart has got enough speed to settle back down on the wheels.

...in case there is loss of tow.

You mean like THIS?:

027-03123
http://live.staticflickr.com/5154/14422541620_a48c55b758_o.png

http://live.staticflickr.com/5529/14422573378_5385a9a99a_o.png
047-03703

- Which is more important - coming off the cart with enough speed to do a crisp no-stepper or holding the tow?

- Got any brilliant ideas for reducing the frequency of loss of tow?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

NMERider - 2013/02/19 22:56:19 UTC

I will appreciate that it is the tug pilot's call as to the maximum breaking strength of any so-called weak link system and not mine.

Fuck no. You let your Pilot In Command and his mandatory sacred fishing line do all your thinking and make all your critical decisions for you.

Fletcher - 2014/03/05 23:07:57 UTC

Here's my 2 cents worth

When the pilot went for the release he stopped flying the glider.

Do ya think? So you're saying it takes TWO hands to fly these things? Especially...

Steve Kinsley - 1996/05/09 15:50 UTC

Personal opinion. While I don't know the circumstances of Frank's death and I am not an awesome tow type dude, I think tow releases, all of them, stink on ice. Reason: You need two hands to drive a hang glider. You 'specially need two hands if it starts to turn on tow. If you let go to release, the glider can almost instantly assume a radical attitude. We need a release that is held in the mouth. A clothespin. Open your mouth and you're off.

...when the shit's hitting the fan?

At that point the glider was no longer in contact with the dolly.
Who knows what any of us would have done in that situation...

I never give that situation a chance to develop so I don't really give a flying fuck.

...but continuing to fly the glider away from the ground might have been a better choice.

What if someone were to develop some sort of technology that would allow the PILOT to abort a bad tow WHILE flying the glider? What if someone were to develop some sort of technology that would allow the PILOT to be a PILOT?

No, wait...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/12 18:00:27 UTC

I just buried my friend and you want me to have a nice little discussion about pure speculation about his accident so that some dude that's got a pet project wants to push his theories?

Deltaman loves his mouth release.
BFD

I get tired as hell "refuting" all these mouth release and "strong link" arguments. Dig through the forums if you want that. I've been doing it for years but unfortunately the peddlers are religious in their beliefs so they find justification any way they can to "prove" their stuff. This is known as "Confirmation Bias"... seeking data to support your theory... it's back-asswards. Guess what? The shit doesn't work. If it did, we'd be using it everywhere. But it doesn't stand the test of reality.

Shit like that couldn't POSSIBLY work. If it could the few people - at Quest - who are actually working on things would've developed it already and we'd be using it everywhere. Please continue drivelling on about the tradeoffs between flying the glider and aborting locked out tows.

I don't mean to criticize but offer a different option that may or may not be helpful
Hope the pilot recovers quickly and completely

We just don't kill enough of you assholes quickly enough. We need the kind of bloodbath we were having in the late Seventies to kick-start this scene.

Tad Eareckson · Post by **Tad Eareckson** » 2014/03/07 13:54:46 UTC

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30872
Nasty AT Launch Cart Accident - Face Plant

NMERider - 2014/03/05 23:19:12 UTC

Take a real good and close look at Ollie's position BEFORE he released his left hand to disconnect from the tow rope. Do you still feel the same way?

05-215
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7406/12980976575_d4a5b08283_o.png

06-219
http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1686/25553445153_1c39397346_o.png

07-300
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7441/12980980635_a22762812d_o.png

Fuck you, Jonathan. See if you can get this concept:

Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"Never take your hands off the bar." - Tom Peghiny

...through you're unbelievably thick skull.

Rob Wenban - 2014/03/06 00:29:31 UTC
Melbourne

Spot on Jonathon. The only thing I'd add is make sure NOTHING can get caught on the cart before you start rolling.

I'm ABSOLUTELY POSITIVE that's the only thing you'd add - douchebag.

Fletcher - 2014/03/06 01:56:09 UTC

Possibly too crooked to recover but we'll never know because as soon as he released his left hand the glider dove into the ground.

What a surprise. And here I was thinking that...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25435
Raunchy Day At The Ridge + Release Failure

Diev Hart - 2012/03/06 01:06:39 UTC

Right there (I think) is the main issue...some pilots think they can fix a bad thing and don't want to start over.

...he thought he could fix a bad thing and didn't want to start over. Hey! Here's a thought!

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up

Ryan Voight - 2009/11/03 05:24:31 UTC

It works best in a lockout situation... if you're banked away from the tug and have the bar back by your belly button... let it out. Glider will pitch up, break weaklink, and you fly away.

During a "normal" tow you could always turn away from the tug and push out to break the weaklink... but why would you?

Have you never pondered what you would do in a situation where you CAN'T LET GO to release? I'd purposefully break the weaklink, as described above. Instant hands free release.

Jim Rooney - 2009/11/03 06:16:56 UTC

As for being in a situation where you can't or don't want to let go, Ryan's got the right idea. They're called "weak" links for a reason. Overload that puppy and you bet your ass it's going to break.

You can tell me till you're blue in the face about situations where it theoretically won't let go or you can drone on and on about how "weaklinks only protect the glider" (which is BS btw)... and I can tell ya... I could give a crap, cuz just pitch out abruptly and that little piece of string doesn't have a chance in hell. Take your theory and shove it... I'm saving my a$$.

Just not a whole helluva lot of creative thinking anymore on The Jack Show now that those two are gone.

No, it's not just your imagination, Steve...

Steve Davy - 2014/03/05 23:56:51 UTC

Is it just my imagination, or are the Jack Asshole forum idiots getting even dumber?

The Jack Asshole forum idiots ARE getting even dumber. That's what happens when you don't make much of an effort to cultivate your best and brightest.

NMERider - 2014/03/06 02:42:51 UTC

Fletcher - Aero towing has been around for a long time and so has shoulder attached harness towing in various forms.

Shoulder attached harness towing in aero is called...

...PRO towing. You can learn to do it safely in a short clinic at Blue Sky. And Steve can also run you through a few scooter tows and teach you how to make the easy reach to your actuator and release quickly and safely.

I think it's pretty obvious that Ollie was already in an unrecoverable lockout that would have resulted in a much higher speed and more direct impact had he not taken the evasive action that he had.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUdtyB8xlag
Lockout

NMERider

I like your Russian mouth release. That may have saved you from a worse landing.

Fuck you, Jonathan.

In my opinion he would had been killed (or worse) on impact and I'm confident that far more experienced aero tow pilots and tug pilots would see similarly.

Bullshit. Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney is the best of the best and he understands that...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/05 01:32:20 UTC

Btw, it's nothing to do with you "counting" on the weaklink breaking... Its about me not trusting you to hit the release.
If it were only about what you want, then you could use what you like.
You want the strongest weaklink you can have.
I want you to have the weakest one practical.. I don't care how much it inconveniences you.
I don't trust you as a rule. You Trust you , but I don't and shouldn't.

...Ollie just didn't realize how dangerous the situation was and saw no need to release until it was too late to avoid a serious crash. Combine a weekend warrior muppet like that with the stronglink he was obviously using and you've got a pretty serious situation on your hands.

You may not see it that way and that's your prerogative. I watched enough pilots get killed or maimed either in person or on my ever growing cache of dead and maimed pilot videos to be confident of exactly what I'm seeing here.

How 'bout videos in which the "pilot" DOESN'T get killed or maimed...

0:50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR_4jKLqrus

...but ONLY because of the LUCK of having a couple feet of altitude to spare?

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-9Ek9_lFeSII/UZ4KuB0MUSI/AAAAAAAAGyU/eWfhGo4QeqY/s1024/GOPR5278.JPG
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3725/9665623251_612b921d70_o.png

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Xh_NfnOcUns/UZ4Lm0HvXnI/AAAAAAAAGyk/0PlgrHfc__M/s1024/GOPR5279.JPG

Do those not count for ANYTHING?

Don't be a hero. It really isn't worth the grief or the medical bills and I speak from experience.

Great, Jonathan. How 'bout publishing your own version of a Higher Education aerotowing article in the magazine and really nail down the fine points and tradeoffs between locking out low and staying on the basetube - like Steve Elliot - and locking out low and going for the release - like Lois Preston.

Fuckin' idiot.

Ryan Brown - 2014/03/06 03:19:58 UTC

The video shows how he keeps thinking/working the accident as it happens. Way to go, Bro! Galliant effort. I hope he recovers quickly.

I don't know about AT, but with surface tow we have to keep the bar pretty close until 80'+. And it's with this energy we let the bar out to climb. Maybe I am wrong but the video shows him letting the bar out to steer at trim before he is off the cart.

NMERider - 2014/03/06 03:45:15 UTC

It's been well established in the UK that he left the cart way too soon. Ollie normally foot launches his aero tows as do many Europeans I know. That may have been a factor in his decision to leave the cart too early.

Meaning that gliders are getting safely in the air just about all the time at foot launch speeds and don't need to go anywhere near the point at which they can fly the dolly off the runway.

Had he gained another five mph or so and then dropped the cart from a foot or so up then Fletcher's scenario may have played out safely where he'd have enough airspeed and altitude to recover from the cart snagging on the left wheel.

Like this?:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLuYBZMT0GE

So what happens if his Rooney Link suddenly takes over as Pilot In Command and increases the safety of the towing operation or the other Pilot In Command suddenly decides to...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question

Danny Brotto - 2008/11/04 12:49:44 UTC

I came out of the cart rolled and yawed to the right with the upwind wing flying and the downwind wing stalled. It was rather dramatic. If I had released or if the weak link had broken, the downwind wing would have further stalled and I would have cartwheeled into terra firma in an unpleasant fashion. I held on tight gaining airspeed until the downwind wing began flying, got in behind the tug, and continued the flight.

Sunny later told be he was about to give me the rope and I thanked him to no end that he didn't.

...fix whatever's going on back there by giving him the rope?

Again I refer back to the OZ Report story of the female pilot at the Aussie Nationals who seemed to bounce from the cart and then piled in.

http://ozreport.com/pub/images/Jrs_2010.jpg

Her face was cut up similarly but I believe she was okay otherwise.

Probably OTHERWISE OK because of the great job...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/09/02 19:41:27 UTC

Yes, go read that incident report.
Please note that the weaklink *saved* her ass. She still piled into the earth despite the weaklink helping her... for the same reason it had to help... lack of towing ability. She sat on the cart, like so many people insist on doing, and took to the air at Mach 5.
That never goes well.
Yet people insist on doing it.

...her Rooney Link did in increasing the safety of the towing operation. Any idea what kind of "release" SHE was "using"?

Joel DeWitt - 2014/03/06 04:19:42 UTC

Dang, I feel sorry for the guy!

I feel sorry for hang gliding - given the depths of stupidity to which you assholes have dragged it.

He did good though, considering the situation.

Just like Zack Marzec...

How many people do YOU know who would've still been, not only still ALIVE, but CONSCIOUS following a whipstall induced tumble back into the runway? Righteous stuff there, dude.

So what sort of wheels do people recommend for a Wills control bar?

Oh gawd...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/07/22 16:59:30 UTC

This all follows the same mentality as "great wheel debate".

Marc Fink - 2007/07/24 11:20:37 UTC

Lets talk about something else not based on opinions--like wheels, full-face helmets, or even weaklinks, eh?

Jim Rooney - 2007/07/24 13:07:31 UTC

We've descended into FL vs AT and Tad is no referring to himself in the 3rd person?! Hahahahaha
Wow, this is really turning into a freakshow.
Ok, it's always been a freakshow, but it's taken on a whole new level.

I'm with Marc... hrm... lets see what else....
Wheels vs no Wheels

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Marc Fink - 2011/08/28 21:11:09 UTC

So how about wheels and single hang straps (seeing how we've exhumed the dead horses)?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/09 18:30:26 UTC

Because it's one of those crusty old debates that HGs love to go round and round with.
It's like uttering the word "wheels"... the conversation instantly turns into the great wheel debate.

Sorry for the interruption.
Please continue with the speculation.
I'll be over here, doing something productive.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/22 09:25:21 UTC

If he only had better wheels.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/03 19:37:19 UTC

My response is short because I've been saying it for years... and yes, I'm a bit sick of it.
This is a very old horse and has been beaten to death time and time again... by a very vocal minority.

A fun saying that I picked up... Some people listen with the intent of understanding. Others with the intent of responding.
I like that.

For fun... if you're not seeing what I mean... try having a conversation here about wheels.

Here we go. Gonna turn into another bitchfest...

NMERider - 2014/03/06 04:57:44 UTC

Don't use any wheels on the carbon speedbar. They are known to break following a hard landing...

Which you're a hundred times more likely to have by not coming in on the wheels.

...if the load is not right next to the corner brackets. Even the skids will break a carbon speedbar if not located next to the corners.

Speaking of which...

04-200
http://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3162/12980962685_5786637b33_o.png

Am I the only one who thinks that Ollie did as crappy a job setting the cradles spread as he did on some of his other equipment decisions and that that might have been a critical issue on this one?

For the aluminum speedbar I'd suggest the Raven Sports six and a quarter inch wheels. If you can get someone to machine a set of aluminum hubs, the Seedwings Europe wheels are nice too.

I may modify an aluminum speedbar to accommodate the eight inch pneumatic wheels for when I start flying again. If I do, I'll publish something.

Why should ANY glider owner need to go through this kind of bullshit? A glider that comes from a manufacturer without a reasonable pair of wheels or skids is a dangerous defective product EXTREMELY likely to get its proud new owner seriously and permanently fucked up. We shouldn't tolerate that bullshit any more than we tolerate gliders that don't meet HGMA and DHV stability standards.

Tad Eareckson · Post by **Tad Eareckson** » 2014/03/07 17:54:29 UTC

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30872
Nasty AT Launch Cart Accident - Face Plant

Scot Huber - 2014/03/06 06:02:45 UTC

These are the best I've seen:
http://www.hanglide.com/?p=409
Wheels for Carbon Fibre Basetubes on Sale

Have you seen the owner's manual? Is there a disclaimer that they're not warranted for actual rolling on anything and that the pilot needs to be equipped with a hook knife and inflatable life raft to prevent himself from being stopped abruptly with his glider?

Rolla Manning - 2014/03/06 11:31:16 UTC
Las Vegas

And not to mention the obvious thing... the left wing is already digging into the grass at this point.

Any other OBVIOUS issues that haven't been adequately covered yet as of this 57th post in the topic - asshole?

Fletcher - 2014/03/06 13:51:55 UTC
OK I'm convinced.

I'm not. I think that was VERY LIKELY the right call at that point in the pooch screw but we can't say for sure that if he'd been constantly maxing out his effort to hold the right wing down that he couldn't have had a better outcome.

But you're wasting your time discussing this one. It's like Long Mynd. There's no formula for a great outcome in that situation so you can't afford to get into a situation like that. And that's a pretty easy ticket to fill.

Dave Hopkins - 2014/03/06 14:18:58 UTC

There seems to be differing professional opinions on when to leave the cart.

Good thing there are no differing professional opinions on the standard aerotow weak link and releases within easy reach. This flavor of the sport is confusing enough as it is.

I've heard at one flight park they say to hang back and let the glider fly quickly out of the cart.

I've heard two flight parks - Quest and Florida Ridge - telling their students that putting a second weak link on the other end of the bridle doubles the force required to blow tow and thus neutralizes the effectiveness of the weak links as lockout preventers.

Pretty much says how I feel about that.

Oh. THAT's crazy? But THIS:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up

Jim Rooney - 2009/11/03 06:16:56 UTC

As for being in a situation where you can't or don't want to let go, Ryan's got the right idea. They're called "weak" links for a reason. Overload that puppy and you bet your ass it's going to break.

You can tell me till you're blue in the face about situations where it theoretically won't let go or you can drone on and on about how "weaklinks only protect the glider" (which is BS btw)... and I can tell ya... I could give a crap, cuz just pitch out abruptly and that little piece of string doesn't have a chance in hell. Take your theory and shove it... I'm saving my a$$.

doesn't raise an eyebrow on any of you Jack Show douchebags?

Hang on to the toggles until the cart gets quiet.

Anybody who can't figure out on his own how to safely come off a launch dolly probably can't figure out enough of the game to make it a good idea for him to be flying.

I once forgot to grab the toggles.

Not all that surprising - seeing as how there are no "toggles" on launch dollies.

Realized it in the middle of the tow. I pull in a bit more to hold myself on the cart and then push out to get off quick.

I thought you were supposed to rotate upright, grab one downtube with both hands, and brace for using your glider as a crumple zone.

Generally its better to push out a bit if we get bounced in the air too soon. We are flying under power and the glider will bite the air and keep us flying until the tug adds more speed.

Yeah Dave. Really nothing for us glider jockeys like a source of strong, reliable...

http://vimeo.com/38023533

password - red
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaVg_bzK3Aw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlIGsgNFRWM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kGn7ITFfHc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pguUoFRjOS0

http://vimeo.com/17472550

password - red
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7258/13851486814_77efdf1004_o.png

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZe522MRipY

http://vimeo.com/48762486

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ba_rO_VAhGk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNCrD6Cnc48

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjncKQ02FJ8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYe3YmdIQTM

0:50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR_4jKLqrus

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTKIAvqd7GI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WtDFymXlPU

...power to give us the extra element of safety that we lack in free flight launching. One just hopes that if whatever's towing us is flying that IT...

...doesn't experience a loss of power. That could be bad for all concerned.

When we hang check on the cart make sure we are hanging back behind trim( nose high) then pull in and hold ourselves ahead of trim during the tow. If you are hanging close to trim or ahead you will get cart stuck .

If we get cart stuck for that reason it's incredibly fucking easy to get UN cart stuck.

VERY BAD !

*VERY* BAD !!! We would obviously have no means of safely releasing ourselves, as Ollie just so graphically demonstrated, and thus we'd just get pulled into the air with the cart - and STILL have no means of getting un cart stuck.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLuYBZMT0GE

If the fuckin' tug doesn't make a good decision in the interest of your safety / fix whatever's going on back there by giving you the rope - the way Corey Burk did for Rob Richardson and his passenger - and the fuckin' Rooney Link doesn't increase the safety of the towing operation - the way it did for the Lockout Mountain student, Bryan Bowker, and Zack Marzec - even if the cart's stuck to the glider because of an instruments pod mounting strap wrapped around one end of the basetube and a continuous hold-down "toggle" then being stuck to the cart ain't all that big a fuckin' deal.

Tad Eareckson · Post by **Tad Eareckson** » 2014/03/08 05:23:20 UTC

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30872
Nasty AT Launch Cart Accident - Face Plant

NMERider - 2014/03/06 14:48:13 UTC

O.k. folks, Here's the full first-hand account of the accident:

The what?

Ollie Chitty wrote:
Hi guys.

Thanks for your kind comments, im reccovring well, short of a glider service i'm goping to go flying this weekend!

I thought i would just wright what actually happend on the lead up to this event.

I had flown 3 times allready on saturday and it was a very nice smooth westerly flow, super towing conditions and i'd had some real nice flights leading to this.

Here in the uk we dont have the tugs like you have in america so we were using an air creation fun flexwing powerd by a rotax 503, now, i was going to have one last flight above clouds for a few photos of the aerodrome and just for fun really! but by now it had dropped to nearly nill wind, the 503 has quite a long takeoff run as its not very powerfull! the grass was wet and the ground very soft, all contributing factors in the accident.

I've flown aerotow allot, over 100 launches and 300 hours, and im also an air experience dual aerotow instructor, and im fully aware, and also teach the technique of flying the trolley off the ground and releasing rather than gingerly flying off the trolley.

At the point i started to lift the trolley off the ground and loosend my grip to depart from the trolley i hit the prop wash from the tug, a very servere negative bounce (hang strap loose) and you can see how i've flown through the vortex right wing lifted left wing dropped, this dropped me back into the trolley, but a few inches further forward and allowed my base bar wheels to hook the gusset in the corner of the trolley, everything happend from fine to release in under 5 seconds.

As my wheel was caught in the rapidly de-accelerating trolley (long wet grass and soft ground) this incured (not visable on the video) quite a violent yaw moment to the left, as some of you may know, the adverse effect of flying a rudder elevator aircraft is roll with a yaw input.

at the point that i decide im not going to save it, i am around 45' yawed to the tug, this would mean in my same direction of travel, my left wing was pretty much just baggage! and i was never going to recover, my only option is release and hope for the best, (get into the best possible crashing body position) as some of you have quite observantly seen i cannot release with might right arm as im fully weight shifted, i do have a barrel style release but i have corred out a golf ball and that is what i use, its much easier just to "slap and release" rather than trying to find a defined small barrel!

I will still fly with my WW wheels because they are great and work super well, untill you've tried them you'll never know and i woulden't say to anyone they are dangerous, i'll definatley aerotow with the again.

the trolley is definatley a factor and the base bar wooden chocks are being extended up by a few inches allready, and on the plus side when aerotowing, you can never have too high of an angle of attack in the trolley... im yet to put my glider back on the trolley and see how it sits.

Look forward to flying with you all in the near future

Ollie aka "hell boy"

Hi guys.

Thanks for your kind comments...

Guess you haven't been reading mine. Also pretty fucking obvious you weren't reading any of mine BEFORE you trashed your face and glider.

im reccovring well...

Are you sure? Were you writing like that BEFORE your last attempt at aviation? You probably were 'cause the quality of your writing is consistent with the quality of pilot judgment you were demonstrating prior to impact - but it might be a good idea to get checked out by a good neurologist anyway.

...short of a glider service i'm goping to go flying this weekend!

Good idea. Get right back up on that horse.

I thought i would just wright what actually happend on the lead up to this event.

I know most of it but... Thanks.

I had flown 3 times allready on saturday and it was a very nice smooth westerly flow, super towing conditions and i'd had some real nice flights leading to this.

You've had NOTHING BUT nice flights leading to that. Nice flights are really dangerous in hang glider towing because they add to the track records of really crappy practices, procedures, flyers, instructors, operations, pieces of equipment.

Here in the uk we dont have the tugs like you have in america...

That's OK. You also have total douchebags mandating weak link maximums so the effect is pretty much the same.

...so we were using an air creation fun flexwing powerd by a rotax 503...

Can they not fix whatever's going on back there by giving you the rope the way our Dragonflies can? I'm guessing not 'cause your tug didn't fix whatever was going on back there very well. You got so tired of waiting for him to give you the rope that you did the unthinkable and gave HIM the rope - at great cost to yourself and your glider, I might add.

now, i was going to have one last flight above clouds for a few photos of the aerodrome and just for fun really!

I dunno... This photo:

15-413
http://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3141/12981414774_e6ddd85c13_o.png

was kinda fun. Pretty cool the way those big divots are flying forward across what's left of your glider. I hope somebody replaced them after they cleared the wreckage.

but by now it had dropped to nearly nill wind...

Great student conditions.

...the 503 has quite a long takeoff run as its not very powerfull!

Good thing...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3661
Flying the 914 Dragonfly

Jim Rooney - 2008/12/06 20:01:49 UTC

You will only ever need full throttle for the first fifty feet of a tandem tow. Don't ever pull a solo at full throttle... they will not be able to climb with you. You can tow them at 28 mph and you'll still leave them in the dust... they just won't be able to climb with you... weaklinks will go left and right.

You certainly don't want anything with a lot of horsepower making your Rooney Links blow left and right.

...the grass was wet and the ground very soft, all contributing factors in the accident.

Not to mention mitigating the severity of the effects of the "accident".

I've flown aerotow allot, over 100 launches and 300 hours...

You haven't flown three hundred hours of aerotow. If a tow is five minutes that makes 3600 launches. What happens from several seconds after separation on is totally irrelevant to the means you used to get airborne - even if thousands of assholes from California feel unclean unless they run the glider off the top of a mountain they've just driven up on a four-wheeler with the glider strapped down on the racks.

...and im also an air experience dual aerotow instructor...

WONDERFUL!!! Like DocSoc:

0:50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR_4jKLqrus

Zack Marzec:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg

Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/16 05:05:41 UTC

My general rule is "no funky shit". I don't like people reinventing the wheel and I don't like test pilots. Have I towed a few test pilots? Yup. Have I towed them in anything but very controlled conditions? Nope. It's a damn high bar. I've told more to piss off than I've told yes. I'll give you an example... I towed a guy with the early version of the new Lookout release. But the Tad-o-link? Nope.

...and im fully aware, and also teach the technique of flying the trolley off the ground and releasing rather than gingerly flying off the trolley.

And totally fucking oblivious to and/or apathetic regarding anything that can be regarded as a safe release design - despite the BHPA regulation:

British Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association Technical Manual - 2003/04

On tow the Pilot in Command must have his hand actually on the release at all times. 'Near' the release is not close enough! When you have two hands completely full of locked-out glider, taking one off to go looking for the release guarantees that your situation is going to get worse before it gets better.

governing the tandem aerotow instruction you've been doing.

Were you fully aware of the Lois Preston and Zack Marzec fatalities and why didn't you have any comment whatsoever on them?

At the point i started to lift the trolley off the ground and loosend...

"Loose end" is two words.

...my grip...

Your grip was pretty loose end long before you ever loaded your glider onto the trolley.

...to depart from the trolley i hit the prop wash from the tug, a very servere negative bounce (hang strap loose)...

So...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14312
Tow Park accidents

Jim Rooney - 2009/11/10 17:19:54 UTC

You accelerate very rapidly of course and gain a lot of speed. I call it leaving the cart at Mach 5. No problem yet (well, there's a small one, but we'll get to that). As you leave the cart, the tug is already a good bit above you, so you ease off the bar pressure (you've got a ton at this point) and this is just about the same time you slam into the prop wash. Your weaklink lets go.

After a couple weaklink breaks in this manner, you start to wonder if Tad's right about these "weak" weaklinks. Nevermind that it's a technique problem not an equipment problem. Nevermind that using a stronglink greatly increases the chances that you will hurt yourself in a very bad way.

See, weaklinks don't care about speed. They care about load. Going Mach5 and easing off the pitch, even a little bit, greatly increases your load... remember that whole bit about windspeed being an exponential factor?

So there you are with in a highly loaded situation, and then you shockload the system by hitting the propwash. Not good.

Your weaklink is doing exactly what it should do.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27494
The exciting bits

In a word... propwash.

I'm not kidding.
It amazes me how people underappreciate the propwash. It's an afterthough... a footnote.
Let me tell ya guys... on a 914, it's the #1 factor when you leave that damn cart.
You SLAM into that propwash.

I'm towing out here in the desert at the moment. Out here, like it or not, you get to see the propwash. You see it in a big way. Even when we're towing on the pavement, you get to see it. It sucks and you know exactly where it is... because it's a big old cloud of dust and rocks. We insist on our passengers wearing glasses because of it (we provide them if they don't have their own).

So when you "wait till you're lifting the cart"... you're WELL BEYOND the propwash.
When you exit at Mach5, it's no big deal.

Now, when you do this behind a 914... it's a huge deal.
As I said, you slam into the prop wash.

And you're wondering why you're breaking weaklinks????
Are you kidding me?

Think about it... you're going a million miles an hour under huge (relatively speaking) line tension as you come blazing out of the cart struggling to "stay down"... as you slam into turbulent air. Hell yes you're going to break weaklinks. That's what they're there for!
You're subjecting them to massive loadings.
(The shock loading a weaklink sees as you hit the propwash is far greater than people appreciate)
That's why we have them... they're doing their job.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 02:44:10 UTC

Zach, you can nit pick all you like, but I'll put a 100,000+ flight record over your complaints any day of the week.

Let me see if I can clear up a few things for ya.

The "purpose" of a weaklink is not in question. Your semantics are.
The "purpose" of a weaklink is to increase the safety of the towing operation. PERIOD.

There are many ways in which it accomplishes this.
You're nit picking over what you call the "true purpose"... but all you're griping about is a definition... and an erroneous one at that.

Again, The weak link increases the safety of the tow.

Now, how it does this also provides a telling answer to one of the most hot button topics surrounding weak links... lockouts.
People will rail up and down that weaklinks do not protect against lockouts... which they don't.
But this is a half truth.

The whole truth is that while they don't prevent them, they help.

Where this discrepancy comes from is truck towing.
See, in truck towing, a weaklink does next to nothing for you (unless the line snags).
This is because you're on a pressure regulated system... so the forces never get high enough to break the link.

This is not the case with an aerotow.
This is why the weaklink exists.

The forces of an aerotow can get high enough to tear the wings off the glider.
This is no exaggeration... it can be done.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 02:44:10 UTC

Where this discrepancy comes from is truck towing.
See, in truck towing, a weaklink does next to nothing for you (unless the line snags).
This is because you're on a pressure regulated system... so the forces never get high enough to break the link.

This is not the case with an aerotow.
This is why the weaklink exists.

The forces of an aerotow can get high enough to tear the wings off the glider.
This is no exaggeration... it can be done.

How come your Pinkerton Link didn't blow? Or, if you were flying illegally with a dangerous Tad-O-Link, how come your wings weren't torn off?

...and you can see how i've flown through the vortex right wing lifted left wing dropped, this dropped me back into the trolley, but a few inches further forward and allowed my base bar wheels to hook the gusset in the corner of the trolley, everything happend from fine to release in under 5 seconds.

So how come you didn't release by two seconds after things started going south? If:
- a kid runs out chasing a ball into the street in front of you do you wait three seconds before hitting the brakes?
- you're at fifteen feet on final and you get kicked hard right do you wait three seconds to get the left wing back down?
- you get dumped of the edge of a thermal and go weightless do you wait three seconds to stuff the bar?

As my wheel was caught in the rapidly de-accelerating trolley (long wet grass and soft ground) this incured (not visable on the video) quite a violent yaw moment to the left, as some of you may know, the adverse effect of flying a rudder elevator aircraft is roll with a yaw input.

How long does it take a Cessna pilot to effect the appropriate response?

at the point that i decide im not going to save it, i am around 45' yawed to the tug...

You're yawed around 45 feet to the tug? Sounds pretty serious.

this would mean in my same direction of travel, my left wing was pretty much just baggage! and i was never going to recover, my only option is release and hope for the best, (get into the best possible crashing body position) as some of you have quite observantly seen i cannot release with might right arm as im fully weight shifted...

Guess it would've been prohibitively expensive to have another release on the LEFT end of bridle.

i do have a barrel style release but i have corred out a golf ball and that is what i use, its much easier just to "slap and release" rather than trying to find a defined small barrel!

Fuck you, Ollie. How DARE you...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2871
speed link

JD Guillemette - 2008/02/07 12:51:57 UTC

It just bothers me when people try to "improve" upon Bobby Bailey's designs ... simply put, the designs are at the maximum of efficiency and safety.

...try to use funky shit to "improve" on Bobby Bailey's designs?

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3107
I have a tandem rating!!!

Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC

When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less), but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it. The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3218
rules

Lauren Tjaden - 2008/05/04 20:12:07 UTC

I am not sure if our barrel release failed or not. I did try to hit it and failed to release one time. Did I hit it? I am not sure.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 17:34:33 UTC

Her hand slipped on the metal tube as she was expecting a light pull.

Certainly no unauthorized modifications of the Bailey Release being not used one this one:

http://ozreport.com/pub/images/Jrs_2010.jpg

How 'bout your students? Doing anything the to give them the same advantage you have or are you just sending them up on the worst piece of shit anybody's ever had the gall to pass of as a hang glider tow release unmodified?

So what was it you didn't like about THIS:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh3-uZptNw0

barrel release configuration? Afraid of what could happen...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25527
Mouth AT Releases

Doug Doerfler - 2012/03/13 21:19:59 UTC

what happens when that pulley breaks with that thing in your mouth

...when that pulley breaks with that string thing in your mouth?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bj-qBsETXPg
Aerotow launch faliure

Oliver Chitty - 2014/03/02

A de-gloved lower lip, ten stitches and six scans in hospital later, lots of bruising but still not knocked out to date!

I will still fly with my WW wheels because they are great and work super well, untill you've tried them you'll never know and i woulden't say to anyone they are dangerous, i'll definatley aerotow with the again.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29884
Hat Creek Power Whack

Mike Bilyk - 2013/09/07 17:07:26 UTC

Wheel landings are for girls!

the trolley is definatley a factor and the base bar wooden chocks are being extended up by a few inches allready...

Why aren't they handling the situation by just outlawing the Wills Wing wheels - the way they'd do in the US? Can't get a Quallaby Release to function when it's mounted on the basetube? Velcro it to the downtube and declare it to be within easy reach and perfectly safe.

Or Australia? Quallaby Release snags the weak link and kills somebody? Ban it (at least for a short while) from the 2005 Worlds at Hay and force everyone up on 0.6 G weak links.

Or Canada? Hang check policy...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1153
Hooking In

Steve Kinsley - 2005/10/02 02:45:48 UTC

When Bob Gillisse got hurt I suggested that our local institution of the hang check is more the problem than the solution. I still believe that. It subverts the pilot's responsibility to perform a hook-in check. I often do not see pilots doing a hook-in check. Why should they? They just did a hang check and they are surrounded by friends who will make sure this box is checked.

DO A HOOK IN CHECK. You need a system that you do every time regardless of how many hang checks you have been subjected to that assures you are hooked in.

...causes - rather than prevents - unhooked launches. Throw a tandem operator in prison for not running a hang check before dropping a passenger to her death.

Or everywhere... Standup landing is the primary cause of serious and crippling injuries in the sport - practice standup landings more. And take the wheels off and give them little Made in the USA red rubber "Focused Pilot" wristbands so people are more focused on getting them right.

...and on the plus side when aerotowing, you can never have too high of an angle of attack in the trolley...

Yeah ya can. Not that big of a fuckin' deal most of the time but no need to go totally nuts. Do the job right and extend the keel support up correspondingly.

im yet to put my glider back on the trolley and see how it sits.

Look forward to flying with you all in the near future

Not...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 04:55:25 UTC

Don't even get me started on Tad. That obnoxious blow hard has gotten himself banned from every flying site that he used to visit... he doesn't fly anymore... because he has no where to fly. His theories were annoying at best and downright dangerous most of the time. Good riddance.

...all of us.

Ollie aka "hell boy"

I'll give ya this much... You did SOMETHING to make that piece of crap you're trying to use as a release less deadly. That's probably the best anyone's ever done in a situation like that and you definitely mitigated the outcome.

Also... Good attitude on and defense of the wheels.

Kite Strings

Releases

Re: Releases

Re: Releases

Re: Releases

Re: Releases

Re: Releases

Re: Releases

Re: Releases

Re: Releases

Re: Releases

Re: Releases