landing

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30420
Your thoughts on Whacks requested

davin - 2013/12/05 21:57:28 UTC

I've wondered if anyone has attempted to make a lightweight fairing like wheel pant seen on GA aircraft for just this reason. Anyone seen anything like this before?

drachenjoe - 2013/12/05 22:45:03 UTC
Germany

I guess there will be no noticeable difference in drag because of our low speed...

For the vast majority of us - myself included - when we're way the hell up there over flat ground there's no noticeable difference between going up at two hundred feet per minute and going down at two hundred feet per minute if we don't have varios. We gotta look at ACTUAL differences 'cause our biological senses aren't very well evolved for noticing things in the air.

The WW skids are OK to save the basetube from some scratches, but no help in a whack.

Almost always meaning a failed attempt at a whipstall landing.

The Aeros skids seem to be slightly better...

I really do not understand why some non-comp pilots do not use eight inch wheels...

I really do not understand why eight inch wheels aren't mandatory for comp pilots so that nobody's rewarded for not or punished for using them. Meet head douchebags like Bill Moyes and Davis Straub have never had the slightest problem mandating safety equipment that only serves to dump, crash, injure, and kill pilots.

Dennis Wood - 2013/12/05 23:35:55 UTC
Suffolk, Virginia

skids only work when the angle that you approach the ground is very shallow. ain't gonna matter much what size wheels are if you pancake.

And:

- parachutes ain't gonna matter much if you tumble under a couple hundred feet

- helmets ain't gonna matter much if you can't abort a lockout 'cause you're using the total shit that Currituck sells for release equipment

- your ratings, special skills, appointments, airtime, experience, reaction time, well-trained brain, popularity ain't gonna matter much if you're standing on your tail in a monster thermal connected to a Dragonfly with a pro toad bridle and Rooney Link at 150 feet

- HGMA certified glider ain't gonna matter much if your carabiner isn't as connected when you're running off the ramp as it was when you did your Kitty Hawk Kites approved hang check a minute and a half ago

to guarantee shallow angle, just approach the ground (final) with extra speed, then round-out to parallel ground, till flare. (ANY OF THAT SOUND FAMILIAR???)

YEAH DENNIS!!! ESPECIALLY THE FLARE PART!!! I JUST HAVEN'T HEARD ANY SANE REASON WE SHOULD BE DOING THE FLARE.

Matt Christensen - 2013/12/06 00:50:01 UTC

If you are such a great pilot that the added drag from wheels is going to change the outcome of your flight, you don't need them.

You don't hafta be a great pilot to have an outcome of a flight changed by a little crappier performance. I'd argue that a crappy pilot is more likely to benefit from performance than a great pilot. Crappy pilots such as myself are more likely to dope off and drift back too far on the ridge or put themselves in situations when they need every fraction of a glide point they can get to make a field because they pushed their luck a bit too much.

Glide performance is expensive and it shouldn't be squandered with cheap crap like Quallaby releases and unnecessarily draggy wheels.

For 99% of pilots that isn't the case.

Bullshit. One hundred percent of pilots will have better outcomes - often, after a number of flights and/or in marginal situations, WAY better outcomes - from a bit of extra performance.

Except for the very elite pilots (and even for them much of the time) it is decision making and pilot proficiency that makes all the difference.

Bullshit. Yeah a pilot making better decisions and having more skill can almost always kick the ass of someone on a better performing glider but he can't kick his own ass on a better performing glider.

For the rest of us, the drag from a set of modern wheels has an immaterial impact on the outcome of our flights.

ALL the time?

If you have to use them, you will be better of with the right set of wheels (not WW wheels) than you will with any commercial skids IMHO.

Why should there be any difference? We've all demonstrated in the course of getting our ratings that we're perfectly capable of nailing any standup spot landing we feel like, right? So what's it matter what we do or don't have on the basetube?

I will have wheels on my glider for the foreseeable future, including my T2C. If for no other reason than the fact that I do a lot of aerotowing...

Because you CAN use them for every landing 'cause you're always coming down at an airport or because you NEED TO use them frequently on takeoff after your Rooney Link increases the safety of the towing operation?

Name some Capitol area sites at which you can't wheel land just as easily as you can at Ridgely or Manquin.

...but I have actually been glad that I had them on a couple of landings. I slipped a turn into a tight LZ on an XC flight in Delaware once and came mocking in low ... nice smooth landing field and probably had enough room to pull off a good landing, but made a quick decision to roll it in and was glad I did.

You DID pull off a good landing. You pulled off a much better, safer, easier, funner landing than you would have with the usual whipstall bullshit.

Dusted off and kissed my wheels as I was packing up.

Ever kiss your shoes after nailing a no stepper?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30420
Your thoughts on Whacks requested

screech (Mike) - 2013/12/06 01:25:43 UTC

Was going to post this. What difference will wheels (other than the massive MnM type) make to a glide ratio? 12 to 11.5? Maybe less? Seems like a pretty small price to pay to have possible insurance for not breaking a downtube/leading edge/self. If having that extra glide ratio is really worth the added risk, that's up to the pilot, but if you take a ratio of the number of scenarios where not having wheels to give you that added glide ratio will save you vs having wheels to keep a landing from becoming disastrous will save you, I bet it very heavily favors the latter except for perhaps a very very tiny pool of very competitive (and very willing-to-push-to-the-limit) pilots.

Very competitive pilots have - obviously - all perfected their foot landings. Consistent perfect foot landings is something we require for people to get their Twos and Threes, after all. So why would very competitive pilots have the slightest reason for crapping up their bladewings with wheels?

If you put yourself in a scenario on every flight where an 11.5 glide ratio means not making the LZ and a 12 means making it, I guess you better skip on the wheels... but for me, I prefer laid back flying anyway so I don't put myself there in the first place.

Bullshit.

You don't need to put yourself in a scenario on EVERY flight where an 11.5 glide ratio means not making the LZ and a 12.0 means making it to make 12.0 pay off. You need to do it ONCE. People HAVE gotten killed from clipping the last tree between them and the field ONE TIME in the course of their flying careers.

You don't need to put yourself in a scenario on EVERY launch where a hook-in check will do you any good whatsoever. Chances are pretty good that they won't make any difference over the course of a thousand or more flights. But if there's ONE TIME when it would have...

Edit: the only place I ever plan to fly without wheels is Yosemite, being as they are not allowed there.

Yeah they are:

http://www.yhga.org/siteinfo.htm
Yosemite Hang Glider Association - Site Information

Wheels are greatly discouraged. Wheeled gliders tend to roll off of the steep launch during hook in with or without the pilot. The Landing Zone is high grass offering no advantage for a "wheeled" landing.

And there are such things as locking wheels.

I have yet to find a compelling reason not to fly with them elsewhere.

They can be something of a pain in soft sand and tend to be a lot less necessary.

(I suppose there might be other sites where they are not allowed for one reason or another, though.)

I doubt it. I'm sure we would've heard about any if there were.

Mel Torres - 2013/12/06 02:29:57 UTC
Irvine

My thoughts on whacks... Learn to land!
I speak from experience

My thoughts on parachutes... Learn not to tumble or have midairs!

Mike Bomstad - 2013/12/06 05:07:57 UTC

I vote: learn to land well. That is the only true way.
Does not require any additional hardware.

Get fucked, Wonder Boy.

K C Benn - 2013/12/06 07:49:36 UTC
Ogden

Probably needed wheels when I was learning (did not have them back then) ! Learn to land ! I do have skids but they are not there for landing. They are there to protect the base tube from the rocks

Maybe you guys could give Steve Pearson and Mike Barber some tips.

Dontsink - 2013/12/06 08:50:44 UTC

I'm going to keep my wheels for a while...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30403
Saved by the wheels

There are also skids with a "tank tread" but i don't know who makes them.

endoxon - 2013/12/06 17:34:32 UTC

Nothing beats a perfect landing, that's true.

Like THIS?:

7:15
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72SJu09S-Y0

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7369/13962618245_163eb65caa_o.png


http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2920/13939515566_f9b68a2595_o.png

It's also the best publicity for our sport.

What kind of publicity is THIS?:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFAPpz6I6WU


Can you think of any possible engineering solutions to reduce the frequency of that sort of issue?

A simple whack weights up the last five good landings, in the view of any PG Pilot.

1. What's this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1Ouu3yU1EU


weight up to?

2. I think we can count on at least one bonk for every five foot landing attempts in the primary putting green in light and/or switchy air. So should we be attempting them at all?

I'd like to have some skids for my carbon bar. It hurts me to the bottom of my heart when I have to put the glider down on a rocky takeoff ground...

Do you think your manufacturer failed to consider the possibility that some of these gliders would be put down on rocky takeoff ground?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30420
Your thoughts on Whacks requested

Dave Hopkins - 2013/12/06 18:33:41 UTC

A properly designed skid at the base bar upright junction could reduce drag and add skid protection.
For wheels to help in most serious whacks they need to have serious shock absorption ability. Only the MM wheels really have this. I think?

You "think" totally fucking WRONG - per usual.

Wheels are totally fucking useless in ANY whacks. The purpose of the wheels is to keep the basetube moving at the same speed as the wing WHEN the glider touches down. If the wheel is too small and/or the surface is too soft or rough to allow rolling the basetube stops and the wing doesn't and rotates forward and down and you don't and swing forward. The wing stops when its nose hits the ground and you stop when your head hits the keel - whether or not you were prone or upright coming in.

The purpose of the wheels is to prevent or moderate the whack and the point it stops rolling you can throw it away. And you're better off with a big titanium wheel that has zero shock absorption than you are with a little pneumatic wheel that has lots of it.

If the impact is that serious forget about trying to save a down tube.

IMPACTS don't happen when we're LANDING - they happen when we're CRASHING. Go to a seminar sometime and try to figure out the difference.

Grab one down tube with both hands, tuck your head in and pull your legs up and make that glider absorb the blow. It take a very light blow with the weight of our bodies behind us to break our necks. Forget about the glider.

Got that...

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3859/14423696873_f1326e2320_o.png


Allen?

learn to land really well and always be ready to protect your head at all cost. The best way to do this is get off the base bar up high on all landings. Get your head up and learn to really land your glider. Go to the training hill and learn to really understand landing. it's a mental process. When you really blow a landing understand that the only thing worth protecting is your head and neck and no helmet is going to protect you from crashing with the rest of your weight behind you.

Wanna minimize your chances of turning a landing into a crash? Stay prone with both hands on the basetube and your head forward. If you blow a landing enough to turn it into a crash it's almost always gonna be because you were upright with your hands on the downtubes and your head up. And WHEN you crash your head WILL be coming forward and it'll be having a lot more distance in which to accelerate.

This is a life or death matter.

Yeah. It is. So shut the fuck up because you don't have a freakin' clue what you're talking about and are giving the precise opposite of good advice.

If we are going to fly accept that flying prone is dangerous.

Cite the data. Show me the reports and videos.

When we screw up for any reason...

...virtually always for coming in or rotating to upright...

...we have one priority, protect our head and necks, Did I say that already?

Yeah, asshole. For every opportunity you get you say it at least a half a dozen times.

OUR PRIORITY is to FLY THE FUCKIN' GLIDER AS BEST AS POSSIBLE until it stops. And that means prone and head forward - unless you wanna go suprone.

I will add, Don't put your feet down in a falling crash situation. slamming in on our feet from a 20 or 50 ft. fall will kill you.

I'll remember that next time I'm in a twenty or fifty foot fall and have the spare time to comply with your recommendations.

Make the glider take it . I have proven this to my satisfaction.

Repeatedly. Think you could give it another shot or two and get it on video so the rest of us could get a better understanding of the issue?

Some form of wheels or skids surely gives us options such as the pilot that just launched without getting in to his leg straps.

Yeah, all you assholes who refuse to ever do hook-in checks make sure you've got wheels or skids.

He had small wheels and they made landing a none event. It's nice to have options.

BULLSHIT.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30048
I launched with my harness UNBUCKLED

Greg Porter - 2013/10/03 03:47:24 UTC

The one day I didn't fly with my wheels... go figure!

And he didn't land. He CRASHED - by trying to do his usual idiot whipstall "landing".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3UbztgTtsc


And he totaled a downtube and the carbon bastetube.

Every crash situation is different.

I'll take your word for it - you're the expert.

A mild whack where you might fall into down tube is minor.

Allen BARELY bonks on this one:

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3859/14423696873_f1326e2320_o.png


The nose ever so slowly and gently touches down - long after the damage is done. (The good news - no damage whatsoever to the glider.)

The force of impact possiblies goes up from there. You the pilot are the only one managing the situation. protect your self!

Right, Dave. The "pilot" can't manage the flight well enough to keep it from turning into a crash but he's gonna manage the crash just great because of all the excellent crash techniques you give us over and over and over.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30420
Your thoughts on Whacks requested

Dave Hopkins - 2013/12/06 19:51:01 UTC

The MMs have enough of a crumple zone factor that if a glider is coming almost straight down or on a corner they will roll and crumple to absorb lots of force.

1. This is just about too stupid to be worth commenting on.
2. The only reason a glider comes almost straight down on or on a corner of a control frame is if somebody' punched a flare ten seconds early.
3. If you come almost straight down on a wheel it doesn't roll.

Plus they will roll on rough and soft terrain.

If you fly down to the ground at a shallow angle maybe.

Most of the hard and smaller wheels in use are designed to allow the base bar to skip, slide and roll when we miss a flare and throw the bar out or drop the bar while running out a landing. They work OK for some situations but are useless when the forces are crooked and coming straight down-ish.

Yeah, we need to be told this.

Knowing when to use the wheels instead of continuing the flare is an important factor in the usefulness of wheels.

Knowing not to start the flare is a WAY more important factor in the usefulness of wheels.

Like when we have a wing down.

How often do you see conventional fixed wing aircraft touching down while they're rolled? Maybe we should try landing like they do.

All of these situation are dynamic and could hurt us. Wheel may help but Actively protecting our selves during the action may make the difference between a bruised ego or Obama care.

Gimme a break.

Jack Barth - 2013/12/07 21:34:11 UTC

Wheels never saved me any skin, but they did save me lots of dinero. Didn't start using them until the Wills Wheels became available. Since then they saved me a few DT's.

You might say just learn to land, but even the best have pounded in our LZ. Those that relate that whacks are nothing but pilot errors need to land Elsinore in the middle of the summer when it's in the middle of switching.

I love to hear people boast about their capabilities then when they show up there's carnage on their behalf. Some sites landing conditions create a false sense of expertise. Example: In 35 years I only broke one DT at Crestline, but at Elsinore an average of one per year.

Yeah, ain't it a bitch when reality gets in the way of The Great Rooney Landing Thread.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30403
Saved by the wheels

Dontsink - 2013/12/07 16:05:37 UTC

I agree with Dave and you that leading with your neck is not safe.

If you're leading with your neck you've already been decapitated - so I'm not seeing how it makes a whole helluva lot of difference.

My current harness does not rotate much at all (it is rotated in the video), the sliding bar is short. I can get it more upright by pulling/locking a string but it is a hassle and it will not allow me to go back to prone in a hurry if I get below glideslope.

Great. Let's make the approach as complicated as possible.

Just stay prone where you can control the glider, milk the glide it if you need to - which you shouldn't - or pull in and/or turn if you wanna come in shorter.

Steve Seibel - 2013/12/07 16:24:35 UTC

Prone is when pilot's hands are on base bar and pilot's feet are in harness. Prone is the normal flying position.

Yeah, aeroexperiments. And what are some times when it's most important to be flying the glider?

hgyzv - 2013/12/07 16:34:52 UTC

It is exactly the same respond we had here from two pilots that had stupid landing accidents. Just lately we put emphasis on pulling the string which helps transition to standing position.

Here is one case we had with broken right hand wrist at the moment of final stop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1Ouu3yU1EU

If you teach, require, standardize, practice, perfect stupid landing procedures you're gonna get stupid landing "accidents".

Brian Scharp - 2013/12/07 19:53:16 UTC

And? BTW-Not to pick on you, but a good reminder for all.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25767
Wind Gradient

Dontsink - 2013/12/07 20:17:20 UTC

Well, the idea is a more upright position will let me pull more speed on the uprights without locking my elbows so much. That should help with the wind gradient and turb.

And the idea is that putting into the tow configuration a loop of fishing line that can and does pop at any moment in any normal tow and will pop when the glider's in a steep climb increases the safety of the towing operation.

In reality, however, staying prone and on the basetube is the only way to be able to get enough speed to be able to survive in some situations.

Brian Scharp - 2013/12/07 20:37:48 UTC

I'm sorry, I was reading it (being more upright) as a better position to handle accidents, not make it easier to pull in for speed. IMO the need for extra speed was the critical issue.

Dontsink - 2013/12/07 21:13:59 UTC

Nothing to be sorry about. Speed is indeed the critical issue, when to switch to the uprights is more of a personal choice no?

Fuck personal choices. There are best ways to do just about everything we do in aviation and this one's a no brainer. Don't switch to the uprights and don't put yourself in situations in which you NEED TO switch to the uprights.

Brian Scharp - 2013/12/07 21:53:29 UTC

Thanks, being obsessive about a single issue can be annoying.

If we had more people being obsessive about single issues we'd have more fun and fewer broken arms and fatalities.

I agree, when to go upright and even how much to do so, is a personal choice with many considerations.

Bullshit.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30403
Saved by the wheels

Dave Hopkins - 2013/12/08 16:53:13 UTC

It's true we can go faster easier on the base bar. But, it's true that we can go plenty fast enough on the uprights to have all the speed we need to dive through the wind gradient and have extra speed to bleed off for good flare timing .

Of course it is, Dave. 'Cause Mother Nature recognizes the limitations of our aircraft in the various configurations in which we elect to fly them and will never throw anything at us that we can't handle. That's why a weak link break should never be a big fucking deal if we're trained to react quickly and properly.

Getting up early ( 30' to 100' ) insures that when we approach the ground our head is not like to hit first should the unexpected happen.

Yes, Dave. Flying final with our hands and shoulder or ear height...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27086
Steve Pearson on landings

Steve Pearson - 2012/03/28 23:26:05 UTC

I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.

...where we can't control the glider and can't get any speed is a really excellent way to make sure your head won't slam into the keel. In the entire history of the sport...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11946
Once again with wheels

Rich Jesuroga - 2008/05/19 17:49:23 UTC

A few years back a friend who had good landing skills missed ONE. Stuck his speed bar in the dirt and whacked hard. He swung through the control bar and hit the top of his helmet on the keel buckling his neck. He was a quadriplegic for eight months before committing suicide.

...nobody who's come in upright has ever had a serious head or neck injury as a consequence of such an impact.

Starting our approach head up means we don't have major changes to our perception...

Yeah, people who come in prone always think the glider's a lot lower than it actually is.

...and our grip on the pitch and roll during our approach.

Yeah, get up early and change your grip so you're stable and acclimating to shit control authority.

With our feet down they will hit the ground if we hit sink pockets.

Sure they will. And our problems will be over with - at most - a broken ankle to show for the effort. No fuckin' way will our wheels or basetube stick resulting in a powerwhack and broken arm or neck.

This will unload the wing and we can run and maintain control.

Oh, right. I forgot. We'll always be able to run and maintain control.

This is a good strategy if we plan to fly for many years.

Like Allen Sparks, Davis Straub, Ryan Voight, and - hopefully - Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney.

I figured this out after flying about 10 yrs and watching several deaths and paralizations from head down landing .

Any deaths and paralyses to people landing head down you've seen occurred BECAUSE they were gearing to land head up.

I thought " I will just eliminate that from my flying"

Along with hook-in checks, the abilities to stay on or get off tow at your discretion, and rational thought processes. Keep up the great work.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=912
Safe-Splat

Tommy Thompson - 2013/12/09 20:05:09 UTC

We teach HG's students to fly upright on the training hills. Then they are later taught to transition to the semi-prone or prone positions.

Assuming they haven't broken arms first - which they very frequently do.

#1. I always wondered why they don't give the student a choice of seated or prone?

We used to. We used to have them foot launch and land upright but fly prone. Then the douchebags who control this sport figured out more ways to make the experience more dangerous, difficult, humiliating.

It's the way we drive our cars, fly our planes and ride our motorcycles basically.

It's not the way birds fly or we, seals, fish swim.

I think a light weight set of tubes going forward and a tube from the front to the nose would prevent the nose over sudden stop / whack? Then a bar of each side of the downtubes going reaward for the main wheels? This is for prone / suprone pilots.
You could angle the rear wheels down at an angle for supine flyers.

How 'bout we just put safe training wheels on the basetube and have the students use them? Or maybe do something like THIS:

http://ozreport.com/pub/images/P20901072012.jpg

No need for a cart for towing either. Northern tools has great 16 & 20 inch wheels too!

What's the problem with a cart? That's something really worth getting used to.

What is a little extra weight and alot more safety really worth?

Anywhere from nothing to somebody's life.

I always liked riding my snow sled better sitting up

Bob Kuczewski - 2013/12/09 20:15:40 UTC

That's how I was taught by Joe Greblo and his instructors.

Along with being taught never under any circumstances to do a hook-in check - regardless of how brain dead easy it would be.

But we also flew several of our first flights from the top of Kagel (about ten to fifteen minutes) entirely upright.

1.
2. So you'd be ready to safely foot land in the deadly Kagel primary.

In fact, one of Joe's comments to me (one of many that I'll always remember)...

I'll bet.

...is that more advanced pilots don't spend enough time upright.

Enough time upright to be able to be safe and proficient at doing WHAT?

He encourages pilots to spend a little time once in a while flying upright at altitude.

Along with encouraging them to run off mountains and cliffs on the assumption that they're hooked in or still hooked in supported by the true or false memory of a preflight check they may or may not have done several minutes ago in the staging area.

If you've got lots of lift (which we often do at Torrey) go upright for about five or ten minutes during your flight. Practice pulling on speed and turning while upright. Get used to the different perspective of being upright.

And then land prone so you can control the glider as best as possible and minimize the possibility of breaking an arm or neck.

Joe also observed that many advanced pilots spend less than one minute out of a four hour flight in the upright position.

And a REALLY good one who elects to land on his feet spends less than four seconds and only that much when everything's well under control. Otherwise he spends zero seconds.

How can you keep your upright skills sharp with such a limited amount of time actually practicing it?

1. Ask Joe where he recommends his students land that require upright skills.

2. People aren't crashing and breaking arms 'cause they're upright skills are inadequate. They're crashing and breaking arms 'cause upright landings are stupid and inherently dangerous - and there's nothing that's ever gonna change that.

3. Joe's students include assholes of Orion Price caliber. Just signing off one of those should be more than enough to have one's certification permanently revoked. Hell, the fact that you're one of his products is way more than enough to justify having Joe's certification being permanently revoked.

Tommy Thompson - 2013/12/09 20:51:29 UTC

Today's wheels are slightly out front or inline with the base tube.
This forces the tail down...

Allows the tail to go down. I'm not seeing this as a particularly bad thing.

...and you drag the harness boot unless there is a keel tailwheel.

So? It's beyond our engineering capabilities to equip harness boots with skid plates?

Still does not address the nose over whack problems.

1. Gee, just a couple seconds ago you were worried about the tail going down.

2. Name a fixed wing aircraft that won't beak if you try hard enough. When we roll these things in our landing problems pretty much disappear. Watch tandem operations for a while. Wake me up when you see a beak. Yeah, they have tail wheels but that's totally irrelevant.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30418
YouTube Syndrome

Rodger Hoyt - 2013/12/06 04:37:33 UTC

Hi-performance wings fly better. Better sink rate and better glide. If you jump on a hi-per wing you simply will have better flights. I did it early in my flying career and my flying really "took off."

Low performance gliders just enable a pilot to keep getting away with bad technique longer and longer until those bad habits are totally engrained.

Like aiming for traffic cones in middles of LZs 'cause why would anyone ever worry about running out of runway?

Felix Cantesanu - 2013/12/06 15:08:02 UTC

There's two sides to this:

Yes, you will watch all the top pilots and their cool gear and drool all over it - if you're impulsive and irrational you'll probably push your luck and advance onto higher performance gear faster than you should. However, seeing what can be in your future can be very exciting and will make you work harder to get there.

On the other hand YouTube (and other sites) helped me a lot by watching pretty much everything that can go wrong with HG - bad launches/landings, whacks, tumbles, chute deployments, etc... I've watched pretty much every video involving a HG accident on the interwebs and I'll stay and watch it many times until I get what went wrong.

You get what went wrong on this one?:

0:50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR_4jKLqrus


Is THIS:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28243
I Hope This Isn't So

Felix Cantesanu - 2013/02/03 05:42:41 UTC

This is tragic. So very sorry for his family and friends, so much suffering.
Huge eye opener, the sport is safe(er), but not that safe...

all you've gotta say on the Zack Marzec fatality?

Or maybe you've seen what Ridgely and CHGA will do to anyone who expresses doubt that the Rooney Links increase the safety of the towing operation.

It all comes down to being honest and realistic with your own capabilities as a pilot.

Access to so much information cannot be a bad thing! - just be smart about your decision making.

When are you planning an starting?

That's what it's all about in hang gliding, isn't it?

If it were you wouldn't be trying to learn from watching videos. You'd have had thorough competent instruction.

Brian Scharp - 2013/12/06 16:00:57 UTC

Yeah, you can get away with shit technique longer on low performance wings. On the other hand, you can jump on a high performance wing with shit technique and "end" your flying in short order.

You can end your flying career in short order on ANYTHING.

Just because, you were able to do it, does not make it good advice. Working on technique, with a more forgiving wing, is just more survivable.

Cite some crashes precipitated because lower experience flyers were on higher performance wings. Anything you can come up with I'll be able to bury with twentyfold the data on incident precipitated by standup landing attempts and Rooney Link pops.

Rcaux - 2013/12/07 20:05:48 UTC
Göteborg, Sweden

Only read the 1st two posts yet, but just to give an outlook, Attila Bertok, the 2007 world champion in Big Spring, Texas, even without wheels though, systematically approaches on the uprights.

EVEN without wheels he approaches on the uprights?

You're having a discussion here about the danger related to people getting on gliders considered to be out of their depth. Which is the more demanding and dangerous glider for a Hang Two?

- a Falcon with nothing on its basetube?

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3859/14423696873_f1326e2320_o.png


- or a competition topless bladewing with wheels or skids?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30418
YouTube Syndrome

Paul Walsh - 2013/12/09 17:40:41 UTC

Have I really touched on something here. Considering the posts and the clarity to me of the effect. I wonder if there is a little denial going on here as a group.

How's it compare to the denial that continues to go on after over three decades of Hewett Link insanity and the Zack Marzec fatality?

Dave Pendzick - 2013/12/09 19:57:38 UTC

People will push the limits, it is what excells aviation. When those limitations are pushed or exceeded people will also be hurt or killed, this is also a part of aviation because man was not made to fly.

That being said, there is a right & a wrong way to push the limits. One can push limits with wrecklass abandon or one can be calculated & informed & do so slowely. The truth is that BOTH WAYS CAN STILL KILL YOU! There is no 100% risk free way to become better at flying anything.

It is true that the cool stuff on youtube can be apealing & inspire people to try to get to that level. I think it helps the sport grow. There will also however be a few who WILL get hurt or killed trying to get there. This is not Youtube's fault nor is it a problem within the community, it is simply a fact of aviation. ITS fucking DANGEROUS, nough said.

Bullshit. Pilot competence and aviation technology are advanced through teaching, training, practice, experience, engineering, bench testing. And a pilot doing his first loop on a topless should be no more stressed or in danger than he was doing his first scooter tow on a Condor.

nico from switzerland - 2013/12/11 12:54:32 UTC

I bought my T2c at my 80's flight. My experience might interest you.

I changed my wing very early: I learned with a simple surface and did about 40 flights. Then I bought an intermediate wind and did 40 flights with many wingovers, then I bought the T2c, thinking that I would go further in the aerobatics and do the looping soon,

I learned very quickly the basics of hanggliding. I was usually higher and longer in the air then other more experienced pilot and things unfortunately changed with the T2c.

Now, 4 years after I bought the T2, I can easily say that this decision has put a little brake in my evolution. I should have kept practicing more with the intermediate. With that wing, I didn't fear to land anywhere, even in the slope. Goind a bit XC was easy and fearless. When I got the T2 I quickly realised that it is harder to land in a tiny place so going away XCountry was not as easy as before.

For landing in a tight spot throw a drag chute and turn it into a Falcon.

Same for the aerobatics: doing wingovers was easy with the intermediate and I was not scared at all... To do the same with the T2, you need bigger balls and it forgives much less.

Scale back.

I still haven't done a loop and it's not anymore on my prior list.

Talk to John Heiney. He's stated that if he had to do things over again it's questionable if he'd have gone the aero route.

I flew for 3 years my T2 in a bad way. Always half VG (I felt unconfortable in the air with no VG and I was sure perfo wings always had VG on...) No one around me had such a good wing, so no advice...). I was hanging too high, too, and the wing needed adjustements.

Today, I don't regret this choice, because that blade is really cool when you fly it correctly but I would have definitely made MORE kilometers with a EASIER WING (sounds weird, but it's sooo true;-).

But once you have touched one thing like that and experienced the speed and how good it flies, it is hard to come back to an intermediate wing. (but it is something to do if the flights become too unconfortable, especially if you fear to land!).

Anybody who fears to land is doing foot landings.

Many people experienced the same then me (more fear close from the mountains, less envy to go XC, less confidence...) at a higher level and: they just started to go less and less flying. Some of them even stopped flying, just because they changed their wings

Possibly. But unless they've stated that specifically you don't have a good idea if that's, in fact, the case.

My ex-teacher is a very good pilot. He has many many flights and still goes flying with his Finsterwalder which is really not a blade (but he can take it in the train ). He make so much more kilometers then me.

So to the people that might want to change to a higher perfo wing: Ask yourself why you want to change your wing. If it is to stay longer in the air, forget about it. If its to finaly do your first 100 km, forget about it. If you want to be the first at goal, why not ?... People forget that good and recent intermediate wings and high perfo wings fly almost the same at low speeds. The big differences are at higher speeds.

Always test the wings (try to do more then one flight) and let your ego away if the new wing doesn't fit you. Just do one step back. Your pleasure will be higher when you ll be ready and you won't experiment this "fear to go flying" that make people stop.

I hope this experience helps.
see you!

Nico from Switzerland (160 flights now)

mmueller - 2013/12/12 04:51:15 UTC

Rcaux - 2013/12/07 20:05:48 UTC

Attila Bertok, the 2007 world champion in Big Spring, Texas, even without wheels though, systematically approaches on the uprights.

Good point.

Bullshit.

A whack on the uprights (broken arms) is preferable to a whack on the base bar (potential paralysis).

Right dude. If you come in on the uprights there's NO POTENTIAL WHATSOEVER...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjB6ccVspR4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpv8Y3ury_A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDOeGbaecgw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAnmB8pjGA0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umTwIjF4XKc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YbtNvDjYFM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfsu5FXt53E

4:45
Hang Gliding Spot Landings, The Good and The UGLY!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3nnTrBJEdI
HGAviator - 2013/08/11
dead
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkElZMhpmp0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=399NZcSUprE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-36aQ3Hg33c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaTu5Y4WBdY

18-3704

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-82T7-OqyA

http://vimeo.com/39603685

password - red
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fuMxK9PadzA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYe3YmdIQTM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrXIsHfgh0Q


...for paralysis. If you come in on the uprights making a good faith effort to land on your feet you get a special exemption from Newton's First and Second Laws of Motion. Every good hang gliding school teaches this. It's not like your head is gonna swing forward, rotate down, and hit anything twenty times harder than it would have if you had crashed prone. Plus, there's a lot of energy dissipation that happens when you break an arm or two.

People crash and break downtubes, arms, and necks because they don't have or lose CONTROL when they come in. The best way to lose CONTROL is to take your hands off the CONTROL bar and put them at other places. If you wanna minimize your chances of crashing and breaking arms and/or necks stay prone and keep your hands on the CONTROL bar.

Anybody who tells you that you can safely CONTROL a glider from the downtubes is an idiot. Any instructor who tells you that should be put up in front of a freakin' wall.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhDOHA12szk