instructors and other qualified pilot fiends

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31994
Field Med Kit Item - Snake Bite Kit

Helen McKerral - 2013/05/03 05:14:11 UTC

Interesting.

Yeah.

Although the effects of rattlesnake venom seem to be different to that of Oz snakes, the extractor pump is contrary to recommended first aid treatment throughout the world including the US:
http://www.stjohn.org.au/images/stjohn/information/fact_sheets/FS_snakebite.pdf
or, more detail here:
http://www.csl.com.au/docs/422/417/0910%20CSL%20IH%20First%20Aid%20Flyer%20-%20A4%20Compressed,0.pdf

But why should Cragin start letting anything remotely resembling reality get in the way of any of his idiot proclamations?

Your Mayo Clinic recommends the same treatment as St John.

But this is hang gliding, Helen - and one man's opinion is as good as any other.

Note all specifically recommend NOT trying to remove the venom.

Don't tell him that. Let him waste time cutting into himself and pretending to suck out the venom that's dissolving his tissues and organs.

In Australia, this is partly because it may help identify the snake before antivenom can be administered.

It's also highly probable that extractor pumps don't work:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14747805

Most people who die from snakebite in Oz do so because they panic and run/move excessively. This hastens venom movement through the body because most snake venom moves through the lymphatic system, not the circulatory system.

In Oz, we have many venomous snakes. I carry two crepe bandages (elastic ones are better apparently) in my harness when I fly XC and we include snakebite treatment in our club first aid courses. You don't remove clothing, just bandage straight over the top, moving the limb as little as possible. Bandaging needs to be quite firm, overlapping, first a bit of gauze/pad and wide pressure bandage directly over the bite, then an immobilising pressure bandage from the end of the limb (leaving fingers & toes exposed) towards the body, followed by splinting.

Seems to me that until you start losing pilots to Tiger Snakes at some percentage of the rate your losing them to "releases" "designed" by Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey you're wasting your time by including snakebite treatment in your club first aid courses.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31994
Field Med Kit Item - Snake Bite Kit

Cragin Shelton - 2013/05/03 17:47:45 UTC

Helen,
Thank you for some great clarifying information, with solid references.

The kind of solid references you could've found with several seconds effort before posting that rot.

In the parallel thread on my local club (CHGPA) forum...

It was MY local club probably about a dozen years before it was YOUR local club - motherfucker.

...a member there also corrected me on the advice about trying to remove the venom.

That advice is sure to come in useful to you some day soon.

I've crossed your links over there for mutual sharing and education.

Wow! Since when did you become such a fan of education?

My main reason for posting the original link was the physician's testimonial in the news article, crediting removal of the venom for the hiker's survival.

Yeah. Here's the physician's testimonial in the news article, crediting removal of the venom for the HUNTER's survival:

Chad Cross
"That's what pulled it all out and I think saved my life," he told WSFA.
The doctor told him as much, saying without using the kit, he would have died before he ever made it to his truck.

And you didn't need to be a rocket scientist to realize that that statement was total bullshit.

I suppose he holds a specialty in other than emergency or outdoor medicine, and had not kept up with the work you referenced.

- How very odd that he isn't even named in the article.
- If he actually exists he's a total moron - whether or not he's kept up on anything.

As I said, I had never used the pump on a snake bite...

Big surprise.

...only on wasp and bee stings. For that circumstance, it seems to work - at least it did for me and the others I used it on.

Yeah. It SEEMED TO. Just like Rooney Links SEEM TO prevent lockouts, hang checks SEEM TO prevent unhooked launches, and the Ridgely crew SEEMS TO know what the fuck it's talking about.

I'll keep my kit, and limit it to stings - no snake bites!

Go ahead and use it on a few snake bites. What could be the harm?

As I have said before, I love the breadth of knowledge and expertise we have, shared worldwide, in our sport.

Amazing, isn't it?

THank you very much, again, for valuable education.

So what did you think of the Zack Marzec postmortem discussions, pigfucker?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28981
After a bad accident... still in love with hang gliding

Majo Gularte - 2013/05/06 21:14:05 UTC
Guatemala

Hello everybody!!! i need some advise...

That's not a great place to get it.

...and sorry if my english is not to good...

Don't worry. Most of those guys couldn't get through fourth grade with theirs.

I'm from Guatemala, I started learning to fly about one year ago, after a couple of months in classes I was with my instructor in a training day and I had a very ugly accident when I was being tow by a scooter and broke my arms, both, I have surgery, they put plates and nails into my bones to rebuild them, I had a sever damage in my nerves so I was not able to move my hands for about 6 months, it was a hard time... but now I'm good again and I can't stop thinking about flying, I'm obsessed IN LOVE with the sport, I'm not giving up, So... a couple of questions...

Is here somebody who hade a similar experience...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21465
Wish it had been the downtubes

...and learned to fly after all? I would like to talk about it!! , how would be the best way to learn?

Coming over here would be a good restart.

where in USA would you recommend?

Kitty Hawk. The instruction sucks as much as anywhere but it's really hard to get hurt on that sand.

how much? (cuz I dont have to much money). Any speciall advise for me after my experience?

Zack C - 2010/12/13 04:58:15 UTC

I had a very different mindset too back then and trusted the people that made my equipment. Since then I've realized (largely due to this discussion) that while I can certainly consider the advice of others, I can't trust anyone in this sport but myself (and maybe the people at Wills Wing).

Mike Lake - 2013/05/06 22:05:38 UTC

What happened?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjncKQ02FJ8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfHF0lRvm0M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjncKQ02FJ8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydNnkwHqqp0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYe3YmdIQTM


Whatever it was her hands were on the downtubes.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28981
After a bad accident... still in love with hang gliding

Nic Welbourn - 2013/05/06 23:09:55 UTC
Canberra

Learn to fly on the coast in smooth air, take small steps when learning.

And save the whipstall landing practice bullshit until you get to the point in your hang gliding career when you start needing it - which, for the vast majority of participants in the sport, is never.

I'm interested to learn how you broke both arms... that must have sucked A LOT!

How do you think...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22176
Paragliding Collapses

Jim Rooney - 2011/06/12 13:57:58 UTC

Most common HG injury... spiral fracture of the humerus.

...ferchrisake?

Dave Hopkins - 2013/05/06 23:40:34 UTC

let me guess, two spiral fractures of the upper arms from hanging on during a nose in.

No, douchebag. Two spiral fractures of the upper arms from putting his hands on the fuckin' downtubes in the first place.

This is the most common sever accident...

The most common sever accident is landing in razor wire.

...early in our flying.

Spiral fracture of the humerus - see above - is the most common severe "accident" in hang gliding THROUGHOUT hang gliding careers.

it's tough to have the awareness during a nose in to let go and ball up or let go with one hand and try to grab the other tube so we swing around and hit our butts.

No shit...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2Gd2kcyOes

1-2717
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7094/13952342741_f71f343877_o.png


http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7151/13952329131_03e535bc8b_o.png
6-4518

- "Oh, that's so much more brainless than landing on your feet!"
- "That was beautiful!"
- "That was a GREAT landing, Rotor!"
- "Who cares if it's downwind!"
- "Ooh shit, that was awesome!"

...Sherlock. So maybe we shouldn't be configuring students such that they're pretty much guaranteed to nose in and go through all the bullshit they'll need to in order to keep from getting seriously fucked up.

For foot launching go to Santa Barbra ca.

Told ya you wouldn't need to worry much about your English, Majo.

The best hill with the best weather. Are you sure you want to risk it. An other break would be bad.

Or you could just say fuck foot launching and landing altogether and focus on the FLYING - which, I'm assuming, is the basis of your attraction to hang gliding.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28981
After a bad accident... still in love with hang gliding

Matt Christensen - 2013/05/07 00:01:40 UTC
Vienna, Virginia

I would recommend a combination of Tandem and GOOD scooter tow instruction.

You got your rating from Steve Standard-Aerotow-Weak-Link Wendt. So what the fuck would YOU know...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=17404
Aerotow barrel release - straight or curved pin?

Jim Rooney - 2010/05/31 01:53:13 UTC

BTW, Steve Wendt is exceptionally knowledgeable. Hell, he's the one that signed off my instructor rating.

...about good scooter tow - or any other kind of hang gliding - instruction?

If you can't afford to get this type of instruction...

You actually can't afford to get that type of instruction if STEVE pays YOU to take it and covers your airfare as well.

...wait until you can.

Whomever you look to get it from demand an explanation of the Zack Marzec fatality. If the motherfucker gives tells you ANYTHING other than standard aerotow weak link and one point bridle walk away from the lying sonuvabitch immediately. As a matter of fact... If the motherfucker wasn't immediately engaged in the discussions Identifying the two issues - and nothing else - don't bother. (Sorry, that's gonna limit your options a bit.)

We have a local pilot that broke one arm that required surgery and he came back to hang gliding.

Yeah, Matt. We have A local pilot who broke an arm that required surgery and came back to hang gliding.

And we also have one of Steve's students who ran off the ramp at Whitwell minus a hook-in check...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1166
Thoughts on responsibility...

Scott Wilkinson - 2005/10/05 14:10:56 UTC

We visited Steve Wendt yesterday, who was visibly choked up over Bill's death. For Steve, it all comes down to one thing: you've got to hook in. Period.

...and his glider - and didn't come back to hang gliding.

By the way... Any updates on Paul Vernon? It's been a while since I've heard anything.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28981
After a bad accident... still in love with hang gliding

gluesniffer - 2013/05/07 00:31:51 UTC

Do you know the cause of your accident?

Sure. He hung onto the downtubes during a nose-in instead of letting go with both hands and balling up or letting go with one hand and trying to grab the other tube so he would swing around and hit his butt. They were gonna cover that in next weekend's lesson.

What to do to prevent it from happening again?

Sure. Let go with both hands and ball up or let go with one hand and try to grab the other tube to be able to swing around and hit your butt.

It is possible to do this sport and never get a scratch.

It's a lot more possible if you practice and execute the safest landings in the safest environments instead of constantly practicing dangerous landings in safe environments in order to be a good enough pilot to land in dangerous environments. That approach tends to result in fewer very ugly accidents which result in broken arms, severe nerve damage, surgery, plates and nails into bones, and six month immobility periods.

Dennis Wood - 2013/05/07 01:08:32 UTC

breaking both arms quickly teaches you who your true friends are.

WAY MORE important to learn who your true enemies are. And in this sport that's goddam near everybody. Including/Especially serial killing motherfuckers like Steve and you and your other pin bending buddies at Currituck.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28981
After a bad accident... still in love with hang gliding

Manta_Dreaming - 2013/05/07 04:00:13 UTC

Sorry to hear about your accident, having busted an arm myself during flying I can empathize with what you are going through.

As can, I have no doubt, untold thousands of other foot landers currently and formerly from this sport.

As you seemed to have damaged or severed the radial nerve (guessing), have you regained control of your hand to lift it? That can take a considerable amount of time, i.e. years. Also have your fractures really healed - the plates and screws or nails can give you a false sense of healing, the bones need to completely fuse. For me that took a year. A serious fall prior to the bone fusing can potentially leave you crippled. Best to wait and be patient - there will always be wind to fly in.

PM me if you want a school recommendation in the USA.

How 'bout PMing me with a school that teaches hook-in checks.

Rodger Hoyt - 2013/05/07 05:30:25 UTC

If it's any consolation, most accidents happen when you are in the early stages of learning and diminish as you gain experience.

- Which should tell you volumes about hang gliding culture's training practices.

- And lemme tell ya sumpin', Rodger... A lot of those "accidents" that happen to people in the early stages of learning also mark the end stage of learning in this sport.

Early in my hang gliding career I nosed in during a training hill flight and hit my face on the downtube, splitting my lip open and biting through my tongue.

Which could've only happened if you were rotated upright.

Despite this setback I continued to fly and have had a memorable 35 years in the sport without further injury!

Having perfected your flare timing shortly thereafter.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28984
Training book dilemma

Erik Grabowski - 2013/05/07 01:24:57 UTC
Chattanooga

So I have sort of a weird situation...

No you don't. Your situation is pretty much universal in hang gliding.

I have been looking through my training book from LMFP (Hang Gliding for Beginner Pilots, 3rd Edition) and, being an airplane flight instructor, have found many errors in the book.

What did you find in that piece of shit that WASN'T absolute rot?

The most extreme error is in the airspace section (pictured below)...

Guess you haven't gotten to the material on towing yet.

It still has the OLD airspace descriptions used before the US adopted the ICAO classes (A, B, C, D, E, G) back in 1996! It blew my mind since the latest edition was out in 2009.

The towing is based on material published in 1981 - which was obvious lunacy even at that point in history.

There are other basic aerodynamic errors and meteorology errors throughout the book.

Stay with conventional aviation texts.

The dilemma I'm having is what to do about the errors (especially the airspace errors since it is now on new USHPA exams).

Write the fuckin' useless goddam FAA and tell them what a total fuckin' disaster area this sport is - and how, with each passing year, it gets better and better at getting away with murder.

Should I contact the publisher?

Sure. Tell him to go fuck himself and believe NOTHING he tells you.

What about all those who are using the book and are learning outdated/incorrect information?

What difference is another decade gonna make?

I hope they are looking at the FARs to get the real information, but I wouldn't expect them to.

Did you read Dr. Trisa Tilletti's weak link article in the 2012/06 issue of the magazine and note how little outcry there has been in response? Even after the 2013/02/02 Zack Marzec fatality?

Those that have no other aviation background that are getting into the sport wouldn't have a reason to doubt any information in their training book.

The vast majority of the assholes getting into the sport wouldn't be able to get the sum of two and two with guns to heads.

Any ideas?

Lots of them. How far do you wanna take things?

I added the current airspace explanation below as well... Enjoy!

So, you just wrote part of the book that Matt should've for free. So why stop there?

Tom Galvin - 2013/05/07 02:28:52 UTC

Should I contact the publisher?

You mean walk over and talk to Matt Taber? Sure

And make sure you take a hot shower afterwards.
Hey Tom, maybe you could write a chapter on the deadly false sense of security one gets by doing hook-in checks.
Asshole.

Brad Barkley - 2013/05/07 02:29:50 UTC

You might try Dennis Pagen's Hang Gliding Training Manual instead.
http://www.flytandem.com/books/books.htm

Yeah, if you find the load of crap in Matt's book insufficient.

Erik Grabowski - 2013/05/07 02:41:51 UTC

You mean walk over and talk to Matt Taber?

Ha! Guess I could do that! (Haven't met him yet, though. I don't start my lessons until Saturday. That'd be a great way to meet... Hi, I'm Erik, one of the new students here. You know that book you published... )

...is as much of a dangerous load of crap as what you're gonna get in your "training".

I do have Dennis Pagen's book as well.

Lucky you.

But figured I'd get LMFP's official training book since the tests will be out of it.

That's not just Lockout's official training book - that's USHGA's official training book.

Tom Lyon - 2013/05/07 05:25:50 UTC
Michigan

Matt's a good guy...

Matt's a serial killing piece of shit.

...and I'm sure he would welcome your input.

He'd pretend to - while he was trying to figure out the best way to fuck you over.

If you identify yourself as a CFI and volunteer to point him in the right direction with regard to identifying errors, I'm sure he would be grateful.

Sure he would. He has no idea that his publications are loads of crap and would really appreciate the efforts of anyone who knows what he's talking about helping to get things right.

I am FB friends with the author. If you PM me your email address, I'll send that to him so that he knows as well, and I'm sure he'd like to be in touch with you.

Of course he would. Then you could let him know about all the discussion groups he's been missing out on all these years. I'm sure he'd be thrilled.

And maybe while you're at it you could drop in at Cloud 9 and inform Trisa about the several inconsistencies in his articles on weak links, fins, and the Cone of Safety and the fatal aerotow at Quest on 2013l/02/02.

Erik Grabowski - 2013/05/07 06:35:48 UTC

This place is awesome!

Yeah, it's a really amazing community Jack's crafted over there. It's incredible what you can do by eliminating the Extremist One Percent.

Thanks for the help.

Ask yourself this, Erik. If the Jack Show is such an awesome place and Matt's such a good guy how come:
- nobody's ever pointed out that the book's such a load of shit before?
- Matt has never done shit to correct the shit he's selling everyone?

I hope the feedback is welcome...

It ALWAYS is. And DO let us know when you've achieved some actual results.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28984
Training book dilemma

Last edited by Erik G. on 2013/05/07 05:54:14 UTC; edited 7 times in total:

Erik Grabowski - 2013/05/07 01:24:57 UTC

So I have sort of a weird situation...

I have been looking through my training book from LMFP (Hang Gliding for Beginner Pilots, 3rd Edition) and, being an airplane flight instructor, have found some errors in the book.

The errors are in the airspace section (pictured below)... It still has the OLD airspace descriptions used before the US adopted the ICAO classes (A, B, C, D, E, G) back in 1996! It blew my mind since the latest edition was out in 2009.

The dilemma I'm having is what to do about the errors (especially since it is now on new USHPA exams).

Should I contact the publisher?

I'm not looking to sound like I know it all (I certainly do not when it comes to hang gliding) but I want to get the correct information out there on airspace. It's an important topic to keep everyone safe and out of trouble with the Feds...

Any ideas?

I added the current airspace explanation below as well... Enjoy!

Original post:

Erik Grabowski - 2013/05/07 01:24:57 UTC

So I have sort of a weird situation...

I have been looking through my training book from LMFP (Hang Gliding for Beginner Pilots, 3rd Edition) and, being an airplane flight instructor, have found many errors in the book.

The most extreme error is in the airspace section (pictured below)... It still has the OLD airspace descriptions used before the US adopted the ICAO classes (A, B, C, D, E, G) back in 1996! It blew my mind since the latest edition was out in 2009.

There are other basic aerodynamic errors and meteorology errors throughout the book.

The dilemma I'm having is what to do about the errors (especially the airspace errors since it is now on new USHPA exams).

Should I contact the publisher?

What about all those who are using the book and are learning outdated/incorrect information? I hope they are looking at the FARs to get the real information, but I wouldn't expect them to. Those that have no other aviation background that are getting into the sport wouldn't have a reason to doubt any information in their training book.

Any ideas?

I added the current airspace explanation below as well... Enjoy!

Good work Erik. Pull your punches, tone things down.

This is hang gliding and the name of the game is to get along - NEVER to maintain anything resembling integrity.

Just four hours, twenty-nine minutes, and seventeen seconds to finish establishing a good start on flushing yours down the toilet. At this rate you'll be talking about Rooney's keen intellect within the space of three weeks tops.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28931
Okay it's Urs vs Spork now

Brian Scharp - 2013/05/07 15:10:59 UTC

Which takes more balls? Saying something that's generally accepted, or something that may not be accepted and defending it?

The same option that's most likely to get one banned from forums, ostracized, and blacklisted by every flight park in the country.

OP talks a lot about testicles but you're never gonna see him taking a stand on anything that'll have a downtube's worth of positive effect on the sport.