Lift and Tug Failure Near Death Experience
DId you ever hold the shift key down a little too long at the beginning of a sentence and click "Submit" without spellchecking or looking over what you'd written?Merlin - 2015/02/04 14:16:15 UTC
Ask yourself this: have you ever left the house with your sneakers on the wrong feet?
To prevent this, do you -
- use a checklist
- cultivate a permanent state of swapped footwear anxiety
- paint "CHECK YOUR SNEAKERS" on the door threshold
- come up with ritualized behaviors because nothing else seems to be working
DId you ever put the wrong shoe on a foot, say in the dark? Kinda instantly, painfully obvious.
1. What's stopping you from being a designer or suggesting a modification?The problem: harnesses in the"wrong" configuration "feel" very similar to those in the "right" configuration. If harnesses felt almost painfully awkward misconfigured, this would be an exceedingly rare problem. It would be interesting to see designers pay some attention to this.
2. I take it you're totally OK with all the "release" "designs" Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey pulled out of his ass over a quarter century ago.
Speaking of spellchecks.With my cacoon...
Well cool, dude. Then whenever you're standing at launch in your cacoon and everything feels fine and everything out front looks fine you're totally good to go and thus never have any incentive to subject yourself to the dangerous compromise of any kind of hook-in check.I used to pull the suspension lines tight across the front, passing the 'biner thru the boot loop and attaching it the shoulder loop. This would both keep the lines from fouling and create such a twisted feel to the harness (also leaving the 'biner in plain view) - I could never quite forget about it.
Awesome analogy with the sneakers, by the way. Take a problem that doesn't and can't possibly exist - similar to the problem we have of putting all of our battens in upside down - and use it for a model for a totally nonexistent solution for a REAL problem in our sport that manifests itself all the time and frequently results in mangled gliders and bodies, deaths of would-be pilots and would-be passengers, international news, negligent homicide convictions.
But you're not doing anything to make The Bob Show an unsafe place for people of varying ages to visit or challenging Bob or The Industry on anything so you're top notch Bob Show material.
Warren, I have no freakin' clue what you're saying / trying to say with that.Warren Narron - 2015/02/04 17:01:03 UTC
Lift and tug is not the point
My bad. The title of this thread may mislead people to think a ~hook in~ check before launching is a mandate of lift and tug. Not so. It's about a mindset that says you don't go out the door without your pants on.Yes, if you screw up the ~hang~ check then a lift and tug ~hook in~ check is not going to be as effective as any other method you may use to verify that you are still hooked in.The problem: harnesses in the"wrong" configuration "feel" very similar to those in the "right" configuration.
Right. We frequently need to pitch the nose down and use crews to keep the glider from lifting off prematurely but glider weight is a real big issue. So how many people do YOU typically use to help you carry the dead weight of your seventy pound glider to launch position?Merlin - 2015/02/04 18:37:04 UTCExactly. That's how you want your harness to feel unhooked.It's about a mindset that says you don't go out the door without your pants on.
But it's quite easy to walk out with a t-shirt inside out. (feels right).
There are various methods to check your hook in status. Lift 'n Tug has been around for forty years. (It was a lot easier with a 35 pound standard).
Right. Lift and tug doesn't work. If it did it would have by now. But it NEVER tells the pilot that he's connected to his glider and has his leg loops.If it was going to work, it would have by now.
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That can ONLY be done using Joe Greblo's Four or Five Cs. And the PROOF that it can't work is that...
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4247
Hook in failure in New Zealand
...not everybody's doing it. It's like wheels. If they REALLY made landings fifty times safer than the bare basetube stuff...Jim Rooney - 2006/09/24 21:19:29 UTC
Ok, this thread's a million miles long already (and mostly my fault at that), so I'm not going to feel bad about making it a tad longer.
A couple things to chew on here...
There isn't one sure-fire answer.
If there was, we'd all be doing it already. This thread I think makes this obvious... every single thing people have put forth as "the way", someone else has show how it can fail. Every single one. Argue about the details, but every single one fails.
Here's the real trick of it in my book (especially with new technology, but it applies to methods too)...
Whatever you change only works on that glider/site/whatever.
What happens when you're off flying somewhere else or flying someone else's gear?
Someone suggested putting a red flag on the nose of the glider that gets removed after the hang check... this way, if you haven't hooked in, it's really obvious. Say this works for you and you get used to it. Then you borrow a glider or fly a different site on a rented glider. In your world, no red streamer means "good to go".
Take aussie vs clipin if you like... what happens when you're at a site that you can't use the aussie method with? (I can name you some cliff launches that you can't if you care). Now you're used to the security of the aussie method, and it's not there. You might say that the fear will help you, but your instincts will say otherwise (the fear is highlevel thought, and highlevel thought is the first thing that gets tossed out of your brain.. else we'd never launch unhooked in the first place).
Argue if you will about the examples (whatever), the trick of it isn't the method to me, it's how using new things doesn't work (and actually causes problems) in strange ways (like when going back to "normal" flying after getting used to the new method/device).
Enough about what doesn't work though... what does?
Since we don't have a plug that only fits one way, we fall on lesser methods, but some are better than others...
In particular... Third Party Verification.
You won't save you, but your friends might.
Not always, but they're more reliable than you.
Why do you think that airline checklists (yes our lovely checklists) are check-verified by pilot AND copilot?
That's all I got for ya.
The other topics have been beat to death here.
If there was an answer, we'd all already be doing it.
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...don't you think everyone would be using them?
Yeah, let's get the manufacturers to design all the harnesses such that not clipping in before a flight, unclipping after or between flights causes the pilot immediate stabbing pain - comparable to what you'd get tying right and left sneakers onto left and right feet. That'll DEFINITELY work 'cause everyone will immediately buy and start using such harnesses.Time to recast the problem.
What a fucking incredible maga-asshole.Time to recast the problem.
ME TOO!Bob Kuczewski - 2015/02/04 18:44:57 UTC
This is one of the best ideas I've heard.
Possibly even BETTER than the Kellner Mirror and the Voight/Rooney Instant Hands Free Release!
Twist some barbed wire to secure it to your dick.I usually hook my 'biner onto my harness through a loop that's attached to the front to keep the lines straight. That configuration is actually quite comfortable on my harness, so your post got me to thinking about a less comfortable place to attach it.
Yeah, that may be even better. With a bit o' luck you could snap your neck tripping over a gear bag.I don't know if this would work for all harnesses, but what about connecting the 'biner to your chin strap?
Yeah, that it would be. 'Specially to your...It's not only somewhat uncomfortable, but also really really obvious to yourself and anyone watching.
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1152
Bill Priday's death
...Cragin Shelton types.Cragin Shelton - 2005/10/03 15:13:27 UTC
You are not hooked in until after the hang check.
And DO post some good high resolution photos for us.If it can't reach, then maybe add a brightly colored extension that connects to the chin strap. I may experiment with this idea a bit.
Shit, Bob. The Bob Show is a veritable cauldron of great ideas!Great idea Merlin.
I'm wondering if the sport will be able to sustain itself trying to keep pace with all the fantastic ideas coming out of your mutual masturbation society.
DEFINITELY.Thanks for sharing it!!
, NME.
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