Releases

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34019
Very sad news

Brian Scharp - 2016/02/07 20:59:26 UTC

They look more like these.

Yep. Note the:

http://www.ushanggliding.com/
US Hang Gliding, Inc.



- steering extensions
- blue leading edges
- fact that Davis hasn't responded

For the Falcon 3 Tandem Wills Wing specifies hook-in poundage as:
185-500 - allowable
240-450 - optimal

Not likely a deal breaker but that's not a lot of control authority to have available to fight a lockout with one hand while easily reaching for an easily reachable Industry Standard release after the three second window at the beginning of the tow at which a release that DOESN'T stink on ice affords some minor advantage. Think Lois Preston, Derbyshire Flying Centre, 2011/10/28. (Don't worry, Voight Twins. Nobody went to prison for that one so I'm sure y'all will be just fine. Just keep acting like you never heard of US Hang Gliding, Inc., Dunnellon, Tomas Banevicius.)

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.ushanggliding.com/
US Hang Gliding, Inc.

Reserve Your Lesson Now

Appointments are required
Weather dependant*
---
* All days are subject to weather permitting. We will not fly in winds of 15 mph or more or in rain. If your appointment is cancled due to weather you will issued a wind or rain check and you will beable to re book on the next open booking on a flyable day.

Yep. Folk really dedicated to getting and doing things right. Is this a great sport or what!

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34019
Very Sad News

George Longshore - 2016/02/09 00:14:02 UTC
Texas

The day was not light winds, we were at another of the Florida parks and NOBODY flew at all because the winds were too strong and unpredictable. {Actually, watch the reporters shirt and hair in the video. and that was Later in the evening when it calmed down a bit}
Word was he was a student, Just down with a friend from New York, flying a TANDEM glider on scooter tow SOLO.

So? All the more glider available to use as a crush zone. Right Dave?

This was not one of Gregg Ludwigs solo landing gear sets. Full blown tandem glider.
Who was running the scooter?

Why's it...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=32681
Tandem crash in LV (speculation thread)

Mark G. Forbes - 2015/04/01 03:46:29 UTC

Among ourselves, we agree (via the waiver) that we understand we're engaged in a risky sport that can cause serious injury or death. We each agree that we are personally and individually responsible for our own safety. If we have an accident and get hurt, we agree in advance that it is solely our own fault, no matter what the circumstances might be. We sign at the bottom saying that we fully understand these things, that we accept them, and that we know we are giving up the right to sue anybody if an accident happens.

Those are fundamental tenets of our sport. We are all individually responsible for ourselves and our safety. We need to see and avoid all other pilots, avoid crashing into people or property and use good judgment when flying. If someone doesn't agree with those principles, then they don't need to be involved in our sport.

...matter?

First weekend of lessons?

Tomas Banevicius - West Harrison, New York - 97154 - H2 - 2016/01/29 - James Donovan - FL FSL - Exp: 2016/10/31

No.

After 2 or 3 lessons he goes SOLO on a humongous TANDEM glider? In rowdy windy conditions? Who is running that school?

Who was running Quest when they hauled a Hang Four tandem aerotow instructor up into powerful thermal conditions on a pro toad bridle and a really safe weak link with a really long track record and fatally inconvenienced him just as dead as Tomas three years minus three hours prior?

Brian Scharp - 2016/02/09 00:55:42 UTC

Authorities said Banevicius was part of a New York group called U.S. Hang Gliding, Inc. that trained in Florida.

http://www.ushanggliding.com/

NMERider - 2016/02/09 00:59:26 UTC

Smells like Jean Dry Lake all over again doesn't it?

No. Smells like Derbyshire Flying Centre / Lois Preston.

I hope this isn't true and that the accident is not due to anyone's neglect.

You kill a brand new Two on a scooter tow on an oversized glider with an easily reachable release? Total no brainer that it's TOTALLY due to the negligence of the operation.

But so far it doesn't pass the smell test and this is how we lost we lost our insurance. Assuming all this is true...

We're not hearing anything to the contrary from any of the motherfuckers associated with the operation, are we?

...it is beyond inexcusable.

Brad Barkley - 2016/02/09 01:09:26 UTC

If this is all true, USHPA needs to step in and take the appropriate actions IMMEDIATELY.

Fuck yeah! I hope they force every sonuvabitch anywhere NEAR that operation to return his FOCUSED PILOT wristband - and pay the postage. A strong message needs to be sent.

NMERider - 2016/02/09 01:26:10 UTC

The two schools are associated with each other via both Fly High and US Hang Gliding's web sites. I know that Ryan Voight, AKA: Airthug is extremely safety conscious and yet this is the second fatal accident within a year that is only one or two degrees of separation from Ryan.

Well, as long as he's extremely safety conscious.

The last fatal accident I am referring to was Scott Trueblood at Ellenville. I would not want to be standing in Ryan's shoes right now.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29984
What happened to the org?

Mike Lake - 2013/09/26 18:59:57 UTC

On the other hand there are plenty of people who fly lots but still manage to spew out the most incredible and dangerous garbage to others.

This includes some of the "professionals" people who work in the industry and are therefore able to regard themselves as such.
They really believe they have a monopoly on knowledge and when finding themselves on the losing side of a debate resort to the old standby "This is what we do so fuck off you weekender".

I say good riddance to those nauseating, know it all, self indulgent "professionals" who have banished themselves from this site.

This has to really be gnawing at his conscience.

Fuck him.

Christopher LeFay - 2016/02/09 01:39:18 UTC

Wow- just wow: I'm gobsmacked. Not just carrying on this petty feud here, but the attempt to lay responsibility for these death on Ryan. It's reprehensible. Take a step back, dude, and consider what you're doing and why- it ain't healthy.

Fuck you too, Christopher.

NMERider - 2016/02/09 01:45:41 UTC

I find nothing petty about needless and avoidable fatalities. If you'd take your "hat" off maybe you could see this too.

Brad Barkley - 2016/02/09 01:46:04 UTC

I agree....you jump to a wild conclusion based on some tenuous association. I said that IF all this is true and a school is operating in an unsafe manner, then USHPA needs to step in. To start naming individuals on the basis of nothing is beyond beyond.

Suck my dick, Brad.

2016/02/09 01:48:25 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Christopher LeFay

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27217
Bad Launch!

NMERider - 2012/09/25 14:21:38 UTC

But what we have in excess here on the Org is generally referred to as a mutual masturbation society. That's where pilots get together and sit around and just jack each other off. That's what I see here in spades.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34019
Very Sad News

eyeinthesky - 2016/02/09 08:37:31 UTC
Upstate New York

Scott Trueblood was not Ryan's student, nor did he belong to his school.

So why don't you name the school that...

http://www.dailyfreeman.com/general-news/20150518/hang-gliding-enthusiast-who-died-in-wawarsing-accident-called-proficient-at-sport
Hang gliding enthusiast who died in Wawarsing accident called 'proficient' at sport

Diane Pineiro-Zucker - 2015/05/18 09:37 EDT - Updated 2015/05/19 19:00 EDT
Daily Freeman

Hang gliding enthusiast who died in Wawarsing accident called 'proficient' at sport

Wawarsing - A Connecticut man with a passion for hang gliding died in what is being called a "freak accident" off state Route 52 in southern Ulster County.

Scott Trueblood, 44, of Shelton, was hang gliding just after 6 p.m. Sunday near the Route 52 overlook when he struck a mountainside, state police said Monday. Trueblood, a newly licensed pilot who studied at the Mountain Wings flight school in Ellenville, was pronounced dead at the scene, police said.

Friend Ryan Voight of Pine Bush said Trueblood was "a truly nice guy with a good heart and very enthusiastic about life in general."

Voight, who was not at the scene Sunday, said eyewitnesses told him Trueblood was flying with the hill to his right when he turned toward it and crashed. "It's very unusual and was well within his ability and skill not to do," Voight said of the accident. "Nobody has said he was too close or even that conditions were too turbulent."

Voight, who said he is president of the South New York Hang Gliding and Paragliding Pilots Association, described Trueblood as a new pilot but said he was "proficient" at the sport.

Trueblood used to fly remote-controlled helicopters professionally but sold his equipment when he discovered hang gliding, his friend said. "When he found hang gliding it was like a dream come true ... people that [hang gliding] appeals to, it tends to consume us. ... He definitely had the bug as bad as anybody," Voight said.

Greg Black, owner of Mountain Wings Hang Gliding in Ellenville, described Trueblood as "a good friend" and "a relatively new pilot."

Black, like Voight, was not at the scene Sunday, but said conditions were "perfect" for hang gliding.

Black said he, too, was told by eyewitnesses that Trueblood's glider "flew straight into the mountain, with no corrections made."

"This is a freak accident, and until the police return the video, we will not really know what happened," Black said. Trueblood, on his Facebook page, said he had bought a GoPro video camera for his hang glider and was learning how to use it.

An April 22, Trueblood posted on his Facebook page: "I just have to say the hang gliding community rocks!! There is this unsaid bond that we all seem to have. Best experience in my life."

Trueblood's father, Bernard, reached by phone Monday at his son's home, said of the accident: "We don't know for sure what happened." He declined to comment further.

State police said an investigation was underway to determine the cause. Black said the United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association also is investigating the accident.

...he DID belong to?

I don't see how Ryan can be in any way connected to his death.

Nah. Friend, co-runs the other Ellenvile area school, president of the local club... He can only be credited with POSITIVE influences on area pilots.

One degree of separation? WOW.

Let's try this:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=32899
Man, not again...

Tom Galvin - 2015/06/20 00:03:25 UTC

Actually It is private. Membership in the group has to be approved by Paul Voight who asked that the report not be distributed off the list. It has been submitted to the USHPA accident reporting system. It should be made available to the members through that site.

What's the interest these motherfuckers have in having that report suppressed to the maximum extent possible?

It should be made available to the members through that site.

Scott Trueblood - 2015/05/17
Scott Trueblood (44), a Novice (H2) pilot and USHPA member since 2014, suffered fatal injuries during a flight in Ellenville, NY. The pilot launched just after 6 PM in “student friendly” air and had a five minute flight. After making several successful 180 degree shallow turns (20 degree) working the ridge at a safe distance, the pilot made a steeper turn (60 degree) and went past 180 degrees leveling out pointing directly at the ridge and flew into it causing fatal injuries.

The injuries suffered... Were they fatal?

Steve Morris - 2015/08/05 20:20:05 UTC

My comment was for the flying community at large to see if anyone has additional info. It's been plenty long enough IMO. I also think it's important to revisit these accidents that don't seem to get fully reported on. It hurts the flying community when we don't get the facts on an incident that most certainly has safety implications for many pilots, especially beginners.

Even as an H1 on a training hill I felt that I am responsible for my own safety.

So what's the point in having an instructor, demonstrating skills, being signed off for more demanding environments and operations?

If something ever happens to me I don't want anybody to be blamed for it.

I'm sure Tomas would've fully agreed with you - if he'd survived long enough to express a final thought.

It's on me.

Fuck yeah. A magnificent specimen such as yourself would be incapable of being dangerously mislead by a u$hPa ratings official. You should've been awarded Kelly Harrison's qualifications...

John Kelly Harrison - 53375 - H5 - 1996/10/23 - Joe Greblo - PL TFL TPL AWCL CL FSL RLF TUR XC - ADV INST, TAND INST

...on your first weekend as a One on the training hill and saved everybody the bother.

I realize that as an H2 there are a lot of things you don't know and you can be easily guided in the wrong direction.

Only if you're the kind of sorry excuse for a human being that Tomas was.

Still. When I am in the air - I AM IN COMMAND.

Yeah...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question

Jim Rooney - 2008/11/24 05:18:15 UTC

Well, I'm assuming there was some guff about the tug pilot's right of refusal?
Gee, didn't think we'd have to delve into "pilot in command"... I figured that one's pretty well understood in a flying community.

It's quite simple.
The tug is a certified aircraft... the glider is an unpowered ultralight vehicle. The tug pilot is the pilot in command. You are a passenger. You have the same rights and responsibilities as a skydiver.
It's a bitter pill I'm sure, but there you have it.

BTW, if you think I'm just spouting theory here, I've personally refused to tow a flight park owner over this very issue. I didn't want to clash, but I wasn't towing him. Yup, he wanted to tow with a doubled up weaklink. He eventually towed (behind me) with a single and sorry to disappoint any drama mongers, we're still friends. And lone gun crazy Rooney? Ten other tow pilots turned him down that day for the same reason.

Right.

Would not want it any other way.

Well then maybe you should identify yourself with the name they'd use in the news report in the event you bought it so's we don't waste any time tracking down who it was who taught you to go upright no later than the beginning of final.

That's why I never wanted to try a tandem flight.

Which you can be forced to take under a lot of u$hPa instructional programs. And you can be killed on an instructional tandem just as dead as a fair number of tandem students have before.

Of course, towing does give some of that authority away to the towing crew.

Really?

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=32681
Tandem crash in LV (speculation thread)

Mark G. Forbes - 2015/04/01 03:46:29 UTC

Among ourselves, we agree (via the waiver) that we understand we're engaged in a risky sport that can cause serious injury or death. We each agree that we are personally and individually responsible for our own safety. If we have an accident and get hurt, we agree in advance that it is solely our own fault, no matter what the circumstances might be. We sign at the bottom saying that we fully understand these things, that we accept them, and that we know we are giving up the right to sue anybody if an accident happens.

Those are fundamental tenets of our sport. We are all individually responsible for ourselves and our safety. We need to see and avoid all other pilots, avoid crashing into people or property and use good judgment when flying. If someone doesn't agree with those principles, then they don't need to be involved in our sport.

You mean some asshole who hooks you up to a rope via a placebo release and has full control of your power setting at all times can have some bearing on your control and the safety of the flight?

RIP Tomas.

I'm sure he will. Died doing what he loved, right? Can't imagine he'd have wanted the evening to have turned out any other way.

[Tad Eareckson]

Davis Straub - 2016/02/09 13:35:57 UTC

Sorry for my misinterpretation of the picture showing the damaged glider and it's gear.

- And we'll give you a pass on your spelling of "its".

- Gee Davis! Are you sure you wanna set a precedent of apologizing for a misrepresentation? If you apply that across the board you could be tied up for years.

t seems quite strange to me that a solo pilot would fly a tandem glider.

Really Davis? It seems quite strange to me that some Industry dickhead...

http://ozreport.com/12.081
Weaklinks - the HGFA rules

Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTC

Here is the requirement from the 2007 Worlds local rules (which I wrote) for weaklinks:

Pilots must use weaklinks provided by the meet organizers and in a manner approved by the meet organizers. All weaklinks will be checked and use of inappropriate weaklinks will require the pilot to go to the end of the launch line to change the weaklink.

Weaklinks will consist of a single loop of Cortland 130 lb Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line and should be placed at one end of a shoulder bridle.

At the 2008 Forbes Flatlands Greenspot for the first time was used as the standard weaklink material (thanks in large part to the efforts of Bobby Bailey). We applaud these efforts to improve the safety of aerotowing by using a better weaklink material.

...would mandate a flavor of magic one-size-fits-all fishing line as a lockout protector with zero:
- regard for glider capacity and/or flying weight
- clue as to breaking strength and the effect of bridle apex angle
- ability to understand and explain the:
-- purpose of a weak link
-- what a particular flavor of fishing line is supposed to be doing for us

That would definitely change its flying characteristics.

- Oh. You got "its" right that time.
- Duh.

My average degree of separation from Facebook users was 3.04.

Wouldn't it be great if we could get your average degree of separation from hang gliding the same as Tomas's is now.

I'd hate to be considered responsible for them.

Really? I was under the impression that you'd like to be responsible for everyone in the sport.

I don't know if the USHPA is setup yet (immediately?) to intervene in the operation of flight school.

- US Hang Gliding, Inc. / Fly High Hang Gliding IS u$hPa.

- Perish the thought that u$hPa would ever intervene in a dangerous negligent operation BEFORE somebody got needlessly killed.

- Mission Soaring Center - 2013/06/15:

164-20729
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8649/16488797369_9b8f9f9d89_o.png


Dangerous, incompetent, negligent operation with total crap equipment. This new Two walks away 'cause he has the altitude and enough presence of mind to get his chute out. How many of you assholes were calling for u$hPa to do anything about THAT situation?

assume that with the RRG that would change.

This was a solo surface tow. Anybody who feels like it can perfectly legally set up an instructional operation and do whatever the fuck he feels like totally independently of u$hPa.

Perhaps Mark Forbes could comment on what would be the protocol in the future.

Maybe in a week or two after he gets as much cover-up machinery as possible into place.

Wow. That was a really great post, Davis. I sure hope somebody comes through to give you some good thumbs up.

2016/02/09 13:50:16 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Christopher LeFay

Good job Christopher! I wish there were some way I could give you three thumbs up for your three thumbs up. When you guys stop jerking each other off the whole system starts going to hell.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34019
Very Sad News

Brian Scharp - 2016/02/09 18:30:27 UTC

I get the impression the video is from the following day.

Seeing as how the sun had set by the time the call was made... Yeah. I didn't check what he was saying 'cause so far I don't have any download-ed/able videos.

And:

http://www.weatherforyou.com/reports/index.php?forecast=pass&pass=archive&zipcode=34430&pands=&place=dunnellon&state=fl&icao=KOCF&country=us&month=02&day=02&year=2016&dosubmit=Go
Dunnellon, Florida (34430) Weather Archive

2016/02/02 17:55 - Partly Cloudy - 73°F - Dew Point - 68°F - Humidity: 83% - 30.03 - W 5 MPH - 10mi.

National Weather Service - Crystal River station - seventeen and a half miles to the southwest of the airport. So air was not a factor.

Well then maybe you should identify yourself with the name they'd use in the news report in the event you bought it so's we don't waste any time tracking down who it was who taught you to go upright no later than the beginning of final.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=33532
Fall flying in the NE

eyeinthesky - 2015/10/18 19:17:35 UTC

Not much to say, just gorgeous time of year here in Ellenville...

http://vimeo.com/142788559


Although it started snowing today already. It's gonna be a warm-er winter, they said... Well, damn...

Vladimir Klimenchenko - New York - 92038 - H3 - Greg Black - 2013/09/16 - FL FSL

So when you run off a cliff under the assumption you're connected to your glider once too often, dying doing what you loved will be entirely your fault. Nothing at all to do with Mountain Wings teaching you to ignore the hook-in check mandated by u$hPa for all your ratings.

Dave Hopkins - 2016/02/09 19:58:00 UTC

Ryan was not connected in any way to Scot Truebloods accident.

Pretty much everybody in US hang gliding is connected to Scott Trueblood's "accident" in some way and to some extent.

Scot training at a different school.

Which you're not naming why?

Although One of the guys running the operation in Florida works for Fly high in the summer I don't believe Ryan has any thing to do with the Florida operation.

So how come they don't have somebody else looping his glider on their home page?

From my understanding the guy associated with Fly High were not operating the winch at the time of the accident.

- The guy were? Well that certainly makes it clear how many individuals it is we're talking about.
- Where'd you get your understanding and how come the rest of us muppets haven't been made privy to it?

I had spent some time with Tomas and his wife on the training hill in NY 2 days before the accident.

How happy do you figure she is that he died doing what he loved?

I am still shocked by the situation.

Me too. It always astounds me whenever somebody using an Industry Standard easily reachable release and an appropriate weak link with a finished length of 1.5 inches or less locks out and slams in still on tow. Unfortunately we don't have any magic buttons available to fix any of these problems. So let's all be extra careful and focused out there.

2016/02/09 20:21:19 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Christopher LeFay

Yep. Another totally awesome post, Christopher. Further distances Ryan from the disaster and carefully avoids mentioning any names - just like the website and police and mainstream media reports.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34019
Very Sad News

George Longshore - 2016/02/10 16:22:29 UTC

Thanks for the WX archive Brian
I checked it for Orlando{closest available site to where we were} for the day and it shows winds very different from what was actually happening that day. Most of the day was blown out and variable in direction. Doesn't mean it was not a good day to fly up in Dunnelon, but I find it hard to believe that the winds would be that far off, it was a front moving accost the state.

It was sunset. Based on what we have I'm calling the wind issue negligible. And this wasn't an atrocity like John Claytor locking out as he was leaving the cart in an obviously dangerous/unacceptable crosswind. This new two was doing OK until he got to 35 feet.

Be that as it may. Im still baffled as to why there was not a tandem instructor on the glider with him...

Because it was a fucking solo tow.

...even a low level scooter tow in ground effect needs an experienced pilot on board with such a big wing.

Really? The minimum hook-in weight for that glider is 185 pounds and he probably made that cut - or at least got close enough to it. Or is there some SOP I haven't heard about prohibiting Twos from flying gliders at the low ends of their certified hook-in range?

My brain kicked in a bit since last posting on this issue and tandem gliders are designed for solo muscle dealing with double hook-in weight. Tandems are designed for HANDLING.

I do not think Ryan had anything at all to do with what was transpiring down in Florida...

Maybe not. But the motherfucker knows shit about this one that he's withholding and the reason he's withholding it is ass protection.

I respect both Jon and Ryan...

Fuck Ryan.

...don't know where the enmity is coming from Jon...

Then you haven't been paying attention very well.

...but in this instance there are definitely other school instructors at the controls and Ryan is not culpable here.

Tomas Banevicius - New York - 97154 - H2 - 2016/01/29 - James Donovan - FL FSL - Exp: 2016/10/31

James Donovan - New York - 38584 - Exp: 2016/05/31
- H5 - 2012/11/23 - Paul Voight - AT FL TAT TFL AWCL CL FSL RLF TUR XC - BAS INST (Exp: 2018/12/31), MNTR, OBS
- P1 - 2015/10/26 - Ryan Voight - FL

Fly High has SOME degree of culpability here.

What would be great is if the school actually doing the operation would step up and give us a rundown as to how they were providing instruction and what actually happened.

Yeah. That happens all the time in hang gliding.

http://www.ozreport.com/9.133
Lesson from an aerotow accident report

USHGA Accident Report Summary
Pilot: Holly Korzilius
Reporter: Steve Wendt, USHGA Instructor # 19528
Date : 5/29/05

Summary: I observed the accident from a few hundred yards away, but could clearly see launch and the aero tow was coming towards my area so that I had a full view of the flight. I was at the wreckage in a few seconds and afterwards gathered the information that helps understand the results of some unfortunate poor decisions of the injured pilot.

The pilot launched at 12:15 while conditions were just starting to become thermally, with just a slight crosswind of maybe 20 degrees with winds of 8 to 12 mph NNW. The pilot had flown here via AT more than 50 times.

Holly immediately had control problems right off the dolly and completed 3 oscilations before it took her 90 degrees from the tow vehicle upon when the tug pilot hit the release and Holly continued turning away from the tow in a fairly violent exchange of force . Holly pulled in to have control speed and then began rounding out , but there was not enough altitude and she hit the ground before she could do so. She was barely 100 feet when she was locked out in a left hand turn. At that time, she was banked up over 60 degrees.

The basebar hit the ground first, nose wires failed from the impact, and at the same time she was hitting face first. She had a full face helmet, which helped reduce her facial injuries but could not totallly prevent them. The gliders wings were level with the ground when it made contact with the ground.

First aid was available quickly and EMT response was appropriate .

Now, why did Holly not have control? Holly has two gliders, a Moyes Sonic, and the Moyes Litesport that she was flying during the accident. She has flown here in much stronger conditions before. and has always flown safely , on both of her gliders, but usually chooses her Sonic if air is questionable, or if she hasn't flown in a while.

Holly for some reason chose to fly her Litesport, she has always towed it with proper releases and weak links and usually seeked advice from me when unsure of something.

This time she couldn't find her v-bridle top line with her weak link installed for her priimary keel release. She chose to tow anyway, and just go from the shoulders, which to my knowledge she had never done before, nor had she been trained to understand potential problems. This could have been done with a short clinic and if we thought it a possibility, been done under supervised conditions in the evening air. Our dollys have check lists for many things, one is that you have a proper weak link installed. She had no weak link as it was normally on the upper line that she couldn't find, and we can only assume that she didn't even consider the fact that she now didn't have a weak link.

These mistakes caused her to have too much bar pressure, farther in bar position, she was cross controlling, and had no weak link. She hadn't flown that glider in a while and changed these towing aspects that I believe all combined to make a violant combination. The pilot also stayed on tow too long. She should have released after the first, or even the second oscilation when she realized that things were not correct. Failing to do so put the glider in a locked out situation that she could no longer control.

And when it actually DOES, curiously, the instructors and operators are always TOTALLY BLAMELESS. It's just the flights that go off flawlessly for which they're credited. (And run a spellcheck on that crap from Steve Exceptionally-Knowledgeable Wendt to get a feel for just how much the motherfucker cares about getting and doing things right.)

All the info I have is second hand from a phone call to a local at the site...

Whom you're conspicuously not naming.

...who was not involved in the training session and did not witness the actual crash but saw the aftermath. He did not know who was operating the winch, who was on standby at the launch end, or who the instructor in charge of the student was. At least no names were mentioned.

No shit. The better part of eight days now and the only actual name that can be connected to US Hang Gliding, Inc. is that of the guy who died doing what he loved.

Regardless of the WHOs involved, I think it would be a good idea to get the why answered.

WHO would be a real good start on WHY.

There are clear training protocols and fundamentals of instruction which all instructors know and follow. {most that I know anyway}

ALL of which include an appropriate weak link with a finished length of 1.5 inches or less and NONE of which include a release that doesn't stink on ice.

And that there is a particular curriculum of instruction for each individual instructor, which they themselves develop.

Give us some links so's we can see some of these protocols. Give us a link to ONE operation telling us what they're using for an appropriate weak link with a finished length of 1.5 inches or less.

This helps to allow teaching in the various geographical and environmental areas we teach in.

Like narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place. Those provide the best feedback for one working on perfecting his flare timing.

In all of these I have never known anyone to use a tandem towed glider for a solo pilot unless the student was huge and had some experience.

- See above.
- He HAD some experience. He was a Two - and will remain a Two till the end of time.

Had the above ready to go before finding these next two posts.

Dave Hopkins - 2016/02/10 16:55:19 UTC

Do we know for sure it was a tandem glider. From the picture it looks like a smaller wing plus the wheels look smaller then wheels used on a tandem wing and the hang straps do not look like tandem straps. lets not jump to conclusions.

Let's do whatever the fuck we want while the assholes responsible for this crap are locking down every shred of information.

Tomas was a light pilot.

Also, as a four day Two, a very YOUNG pilot.

His personal glider was a Falcon 140 and that was about right for his weight .

- Falcon 145 - 120 to 190 pounds.
- What weak link was about right for his weight?

Ryan Voight - 2016/02/10 17:00:44 UTC
Ellenville

Doing my best to respond calmly and politely, considering the insinuations made by Jonathan Dyetch - and thank you to those that have already responded to that

While you've had zero comment on this one until now 'cause you had more important items on your to-do list.

Not that such an ignominious post even deserves a response, I'll set things straight real quick.

All of them.

Tomas was a student of Fly High's this summer, and was doing pretty well.

Did you run him through any easy reach drills so's he'd be ready to safely handle lockout emergencies?

He became close friends with another Ellenville pilot and instructor, not affiliated with any school...

Or any name.

...who also helped in mentoring him.

Many years ago Fly High (Paul Voight at the time) set up a contractor agreement with US Hang Gliding (Bryon Estes)...

Bryon Estes - New York - 75288 - H4 - 2007/04/23 - Paul Voight
- AT FL LGO PL ST TAT TPL AWCL CL FSL RLF TUR XC
- ADV INST, TAND INST, TUG PILOT
-- Exp: 2018/12/31 - ADV INST, TAND INST

http://flyhighhg.com/about-us/
About us | Fly High Hang Gliding

Bryon Estes
US Hang Gliding, Inc. Flight School Manager

Bryon began learning to hang glide at age 14- first flying a Falcon 170, then moving in succession thru the Sport 167, Ultrasport 147, Ram-Air 154 and a T2 154. He has flown in New York, Connecticut, New Hampshire, Vermont, North Carolina, Virginia, Florida and Tennesee. He holds the current XC record from Randall airport in New York. He is now almost 30 and has been flying for 15 years, almost half of his life.

Bryon is rated for instruction, tandem, areo-tow, platform tow, cross country, restricted landing field, Cliff launches and several other minor ratings. Prior to the FAA's LSA ruling, he was also a rated tug pilot (and was the youngest in the country at 19 years and 5 months old).

Bryon has decided to dedicate his life to the advancement of hang gliding and follows thru with this commitment by teaching and flying in all seasons and locations that he can. He is out with his students everyday that is flyable from early morning to (often) sunset. His students like and understand him and are encouraged to follow his lead. You would hard pressed to find a more dedicated instructor!

where Fly High handles sales and service, and Bryon handles training and instruction.

Just this winter Bryon took on an investor and purchased a Dragonfly tow plane, tandem glider...

...the best tow releases money could buy...

...etc etc. He took delivery in Florida, and elected to operate there for the winter before bringing the tow operation up to Ellenville area in Spring. In Florida, Bryon was sharing his airport hanger with another instructor/operation, and that is who owned and operated the winch this fateful day.

Also not affiliated with any name.

My connection (Ryan Voight)...

Screen name: AIRTHUG

...with US Hang Gliding/Bryon is that I stepped into running Fly High this past summer as my dad decided it was time to retire and spend more time being "Poppy" with my daughter... and Bryon has done a very good job for many years here in Ellenville. He was recognized Nationally as Instructor of the Year a few years back, too.

2000 - Rob McKenzie
2001 - Pat Denevan
2002 - Mark Windsheimer
2003 - Sunny Venesky
2004 - Steve Wendt
2005 - Bill Holmes
2006 - Henry Boessl
2007 - Paul Voight
2008 - Steven Prepost
2009 - Thomas Galvin
2010 - Bryon Estes
2011 - Andy Torrington
2012 - John M. Middleton
2013 - Mitch Shipley
2014 - Ryan Voight
2015 - Bart Weghorst

Pretty lofty company. Really astonishing how, with all that talent and quality available out there, that we find the sport in the state we do now.

As a stay-at-home dad, I'm a bit limited in my availability to get out and teach every day. Bryon is also much better at managing dates, times, schedules, etc. The relationship with Fly High and US Hang Gliding has been successful for both, and when I came I was glad we could maintain that relationship.

Jonathan's implications are grotesque.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up

Ryan Voight - 2009/11/03 05:24:31 UTC

It works best in a lockout situation... if you're banked away from the tug and have the bar back by your belly button... let it out. Glider will pitch up, break weaklink, and you fly away.

During a "normal" tow you could always turn away from the tug and push out to break the weaklink... but why would you?

Have you never pondered what you would do in a situation where you CAN'T LET GO to release? I'd purposefully break the weaklink, as described above. Instant hands free release

The only thing he's right about is my "degrees of separation" from Tomas and Scotty. Although he's wrong at saying it's just those two- I had nearly the same degree of separation from most of the other US HG (and PG) fatalities last year.

And yes, I can't help but feel like I do have the knowledge and skill to have prevented these tragic events, had I been more involved. All of them. It's hard to look in the mirror and say I couldn't have done more...

Or maybe if you - and your ilk - hadn't done ANYTHING our situation would be a lot better.

AND THAT IS ENOUGH ABOUT ME, OR ABOUT JONATHAN. This thread is about the heartbreaking loss of Tomas- a husband, a father, and a friend... Let's keep this about him, and his family in our thoughts during this difficult time please.

Yeah, since he's the only name we have that we can directly connect to this incident.

Also- additional facts should be forthcoming.

Yeah. They *ALWAYS* SHOULD BE.

Mitch Shipley, on behalf of USHPA, was on site the next morning conducting an accident investigation.

Right. On behalf of u$hPa. And we all know what THAT means.

Reports have been submitted via the new AIRS system. As with any "process", it takes a bit of time...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=16439
Some day we will learn

Steve Morris - 2010/03/31 23:58:54 UTC

In 2009 there were several serious hang gliding accidents involving pilots on the HG forum (or who had close friends on the forum that reported that these accidents had occurred). In each case there was an immediate outcry from forum members not to discuss these accidents, usually referring to the feelings of the pilots' families as a reason to not do so. In each case it was claimed that the facts would eventually come out and a detailed report would be presented and waiting for this to happen would result in a better informed pilot population and reduce the amount of possibly harmful speculation.

In each of these cases I have never seen a final detailed accident report presented in this forum. So far as I can tell, the accident reporting system that has been assumed to exist here doesn't exist at all, the only reports I've seen are those published in the USHPA magazine. They are so stripped down, devoid of contextual information and important facts that in many cases I have not been able to match the magazine accident report with those mentioned in this forum.

The end result has been that effective accident reporting is no longer taking place in the USHPA magazine or in this forum. Am I the only one who feels this way?

Yep.

...but please everyone make an effort to be patient...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25656
The young girl who died hang gliding solo

Jim Rooney - 2012/03/06 18:34:14 UTC

Accident investigations involving fatalities take a long time. And by long, I mean they can take years.
(yes, years, I'm not kidding)

...refrain from undue speculation...

Cool, Ryan. We've got plenty to work with in the way of DUE speculation to keep us busy during u$hPa's two month sanitizing process.

...and most importantly take care out there- this thing we do is hella fun, but can be deadly if we're not careful.

Yeah guys. Be careful. Tomas bought it 'cause he was being careless while he was climbing out to 35 feet.

2016/02/10 17:34:45 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Jim Gaar
2016/02/10 17:35:42 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Christopher LeFay

And look who he's got sucking his dick. How much more do we really need to know.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34019
Very Sad News

Christopher LeFay - 2016/02/10 17:45:09 UTC

Maybe I misapprehend the AIRS system and our present circumstance- my apprehension is that accident details are no longer disseminated.

No. They're...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=32681
Tandem crash in LV (speculation thread)

Jim Gaar - 2015/06/01 14:34:27 UTC

The "privileged info" should come out through folks like me and many other "mentors" through a method or information decimation and discussion with both current and new pilots.

...DECIMATED - through folk like Rodie and many other "mentors". Much better system.

Considering how important such reports are to us and the expectation of secrecy, I reckon the combination naturally fosters speculation.

And speculation - like the Tad-O-Link...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 10:40:24 UTC

Now flip the argument and you start to see the devil.
A glider can take a whole shitload more force than a weaklink can.
So, if you're of the "sole purpose" cult, then you see no issue with a LOT stronger weaklink.

Well, it won't take long with that system before we've got a lot more dead pilots out there.

...is one of the really big killers in this sport - as everyone well knows.

C'mon, Jack Show motherfuckers... Somebody say something about the weak link and why it didn't work.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34019
Very Sad News

Mark G. Forbes - 2016/02/10 19:36:35 UTC

AIRS and accident info

In the past (pre-AIRS) there was no way to protect accident reports from legal disclosure, except by shielding them under attorney-client privilege.

And, GAWD, the LAST thing we want is our "accidents" scrutinized by the legal system. Those bastards don't understand that all hang gliding crashes are solely the fault of the dead guy and all instructors, tug drivers, tow operators are always totally blameless - or anything else that's TYPICAL in our sport.

This severely limited our ability to use the reports for public education of our members, because privilege is lost if we do so.

I can only imagine how much that must've torn your insides out. You have this unparalled passion for keeping participants and tandem thrill riders as safe as humanly possible and were forced to sit on all the cheap, easy, obvious fixes because of the inherent unfairness of the legal system and watch needless death after needless death after needless death.

The new AIRS system is different. It's built around a federally-licensed research project, studying the causes of accidents from a health and safety standpoint.

Well, as long as we just STUDY the causes of "ACCIDENTS". Of course we still can't actually DO anything about them 'cause AIRS, or no AIRS, we still have THIS:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27736
Increase in our USHpA dues

Mark G. Forbes - 2012/12/20 06:21:33 UTC

We're re-working the accident reporting system, but again it's a matter of getting the reports submitted and having a volunteer willing to do the detail work necessary to get them posted. There are also numerous legal issues associated with accident reports, which we're still wrestling with. It's a trade-off between informing our members so they can avoid those kinds of accidents in the future, and exposing ourselves to even more lawsuits by giving plaintiff's attorneys more ammunition to shoot at us.

Imagine a report that concludes, "If we'd had a procedure "x" in place, then it would have probably prevented this accident. And we're going to put that procedure in place at the next BOD meeting." Good info, and what we want to be able to convey. But what comes out at trial is, "Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury, my client suffered injury because USHPA knew or should have known that a safety procedure was not in place, and was therefore negligent and at fault." We're constantly walking this line between full disclosure and handing out nooses at the hangmen's convention.

problem, right Mark?

The federal license limits who can view the data...

GOOD. We certainly don't want no weekend muppets viewing the data. Best limit access to...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=32681
Tandem crash in LV (speculation thread)

Jim Gaar - 2015/06/01 14:34:27 UTC

The "privileged info" should come out through folks like me and many other "mentors" through a method or information decimation and discussion with both current and new pilots.

...privileged information decimators.

...and most critically shields all of the accident reports from subpoena and use in any court case.

Gawd yes.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25321
Stop the Stupids at the USHPA BOD meeting

Mark G. Forbes - 2011/09/29 02:26:23 UTC

We can establish rules which we think will improve pilot safety, but our attorney is right. USHPA is not in the business of keeping pilots "safe" and it can't be. Stepping into that morass is a recipe for extinction of our association. I wish it were not so, but it is. We don't sell equipment, we don't offer instruction, and we don't assure pilots that they'll be safe. Even so, we get sued periodically by people who say we "shoulda, coulda, woulda" done something that would have averted their accident.

It's not just concern for meet directors and policy makers...it's about our continued existence as an association. It's about minimizing the chance of our getting sued out of existence. We're one lawsuit away from that, all the time, and we think hard about it. I would LOVE to not have to think that way, but every time a legal threat arises, it reminds me that we have a very dysfunctional legal system in this country (note: not a "justice" system...there's little justice involved) and we have to recognize that reality and deal with it.

There's just no JUSTICE in our "justice" system. It's ALWAYS gonna come out in favor of the family some u$hPa certified asshole has just slammed in.

The USHPA accident report committee members have been trained and certified to see the data...

How many hundreds of classroom hours? Four? Five?

...and they can use it to produce summary reports for public distribution to our members.

Will the causes of death still largely be the suffering of fatal injuries?

The companion piece to this is the new AIRS database and data entry interface, which was rolled out at the end of 2015.

Almost in time to prevent the ten US fatalities of that calendar year.

It's built around the federal license rules, so it meets all the requirements for the study.

u$hPa's latest scam - following in the wake of the FOCUSED PILOT wristbands.

If you'd like to play around with it, there's a test version of it which gets periodically scrubbed, here:

http://beta-airs.ushpa.aero/

Don't play in the real thing; those reports are permanently saved.

Like playing around with the real Dunnellon tow operation. Those results got permanently saved too. No way to turn the clock back and get a do-over for those critical five seconds.

Christopher LeFay - 2016/02/10 20:32:01 UTC

The USHPA accident report committee members have been trained and certified to see the data, and they can use it to produce summary reports for public distribution to our members.

How do you anticipate that manifesting in this case? If there is a suit involving this event, I reckon we shouldn't expect a substantive public report; if there is no immediate suit, how long before a report might become published? Will it need to be obscured by time? It seems accurate to say that incident reports will not be published as a mater of routine. Neither of the last two magazines featured a report- and while the article on the AIRS system spoke of reporting to members accident statistics, the use of the word "could" instead of "will" was glaring.

This casualty to liability precaution is the marginalization of a fundamental safety tool- the purpose of which, paradoxically, was to prevent liabilities! I'm sure that has occurred to all- but seeing it written alleviates a need to bang my head on the keyboard.

What a pity it is that you're fundamentally evil, Christopher.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34019
Very Sad News

Ryan Voight - 2016/02/10 21:10:39 UTC

Hate the game, not the player.

What? I can't do both?

USHPA, or even their attorney, didn't write the rulebook here.

Any chance we muppets can SEE the rulebook here? Just kidding.

And FYI I'm with you- if this (or other) accidents develop into lessons, or even lesson reminders, that can serve to even possibly lower the chances of our suffering the same fate... we need to hear about it!

Get fucked. Nobody's invented new ways to kill gliders that weren't highly refined and commonly, fully, honestly, openly reported on in the early Eighties. The culture refused to fix the problems then and sure won't start doing shit about any of them now.

And also there's a psychological aspect- if we have the desire to keep doing this thing we do...

...over and over again expecting better results...

...despite someone else experiencing the ultimate loss while doing it...

Or, more likely...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27396
Scooter tow faillure... or Never Land On Your Face

Mitch Shipley - 2012/10/22 19:04:16 UTC

We engage in a sport that has risk and that is part of the attraction.

...BECAUSE of someone else experiencing the ultimate loss while doing it.

...it's only natural we want to (need to?) know what happened and how and why, right?

Careful Ryan. Talk like that could lead to speculation.

On the other hand, though... to keep doing this thing we do... we really need USHPA to protect themselves and the sport from litigation in order to preserve a lasting future.

Fuck yeah! That's what u$hPa keeps telling us so obviously it must be true.

So as with all things I guess a delicate balance must be found.

Fuck yeah! Let's try to do things right but not go nuts trying to do them TOO right.

I do not share your pessimism regarding the new AIRS system, and those involved in it. I'm pretty danged sure they are of the same mind as I am, and will do what they can, when they can, as best they can.

I never had the slightest danged doubt.

It's very new still, give it time...

That's one thing we do very well, Ryan.