Releases

[Tad Eareckson]

Jump to next post:
http://www.kitestrings.org/post9541.html#p9541

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MP5-aSHvQZs
Bad Tow Worse Landing

Net Mangler - 2016/07/18

Bad Tow Worse Landing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MP5-aSHvQZs
Net Mangler - 2016/07/18
dead

You can save your critical feedback.

Not a chance. Not particularly critical of you however.

I've already received more than enough.

From the assholes at Lockout no doubt.

I'm posting this simply because it's too damn funny to keep to myself.

- Give ya credit for that. And notice that Lockout didn't make anything public for discussion.
- There's plenty "funny" about it - but not in the first definition sense of the word.

Dave Pendzick (TheDAVE858)

Was it the cart that was not positioned right, it looked like you were fully pushed out sitting in the cart. Hope you didn't bang yourself up too bad.

He pretty obviously didn't bang himself up at all.

Thanks for sharing.

Is this a great sport or what.

Net Mangler

Very observant. The cart was for a smaller glider.

Which was relevant to anything how?

I meant to use it simply to get my glider over to the launch area and switch it to a properly pitched cart that someone else was using at the time.

Pretty much dead air, totally irrelevant.

One of many things that put me at risk.

How 'bout the shorts you were wearing? Was that a good idea?

When I got over there, everyone was waiting for me so they could break for lunch. I let myself get rushed and forgot.

Irrelevant.

Everything was downhill from there.

Good trick on the mother of all pancake flat Happy Acres putting greens.

For example, I didn't relax my arms after the tug got me going because I was looking at my hands trying to remember where I had left my gloves.

- That would've been a good time to move worrying about your gloves to the back burner.

- For nearly the whole fucking flight?

- You "didn't relax your arms"? Is that how you were taught to do an aerotow? What about coming off the cart with speed, pulling in and staying lined up behind the tug at all times? Fuckin' insanity.

From now on I'm going to give myself a mandatory five minutes (maybe ten) of "quiet time" before I launch to review my flight plan, go over what I need to do at launch (so I'm not complacent), let my heart-rate slow a little, and clear the rest of the world out of my head.

Rubbish. Understand what you're doing, prefight properly, take an extra minute or two to make sure you're set if you think you need it. Anybody who thinks he needs five or ten minutes shouldn't be aerotowing - or flying in general for that matter.

If I feel rushed to do that, I simply don't fly.

Then you simply don't learn and gain experience. Our flying lifespans are finite. Nobody's gonna have a gun to your head to force you to take off faster than you feel comfortable with. If you still feel rushed after five minutes there's something seriously wrong with your head.

Ty Taylor

How much VG did you have?

Who the fuck cares? Show me a frame in which it could've been relevant. There's virtually no roll control used or needed in the course of this flight.

MyViews

Thanks for sharing. We all need to learn from each others mistakes.

Bull fucking shit. We don't need to reinvent aviation and we aren't inventing any new ways to fuck up flights, crash planes, kill ourselves. We need to have solid procedures and competent instruction and we don't.

I went with large wheels since LOM LZ does have some uneven areas.

And I'll bet you're really good at finding them.

Maybe my concern is unwarranted and the smaller wheels are just fine.

For what? Wheels are tradeoffs. Bigger wheels can handle crappier surfaces, smaller wheels are less problematic with respect to weight and drag.

Glad to see you expanding into AT also. I bet it is hard to stay prone when you have practiced relentlessly to be in the perfect upright position.

Goddam fuckin' right...

02-02513
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05-03223
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08-43827
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10-45613
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13-50017
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'Cept the perfect upright position is an oxymoron . like a really conscientious hang checker. You can't fly or land that way. And that's all Lockout - and just about all these other shit operations - teach. And it's killing the sport along with its participants.

01-0301
- 01 - chronological order
- 03 - seconds
- 01 - frame (30 fps)

01-0301
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8884/27814272254_4328172e9d_o.png


http://estore.hanglide.com/aerotow-equipment-primary-aerotow-release-brake-lever-release/dp/1660
Primary Aerotow Release, Brake Lever Release

http://estore.hanglide.com/images/product/a/aerotow-primary-release-barrel-with-brake-lever.png


The brake lever release configuration is favored by some pilots becuase, due to the mechanical advantage of the lever, there is less release pressure when actuating the release.

02-0720
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7725/27814269604_d875578a16_o.png


The camera angle and lens focal length are problematic in gauging what's going on. In this sequence as the cart's rolling up to speed we know that the glider's gotta be perfectly lined up with the tug but it looks like it's heading and tracking way the fuck to the right. Interpret the rest of the shots accordingly.

03-0829
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8394/27814268174_fdf71b0a17_o.png

04-1016
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05-1110
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8608/27814265934_decd2df2f2_o.png


Already too high. Should've pulled way in and skimmed while waiting for the tug to lift off.

06-1126
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8561/27814264704_cb518862b4_o.png


Tug rotates.

07-1212
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8164/27814263284_9e9eb95e53_o.png

08-1223
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8695/27814262264_3d74eb94cd_o.png


Glider's drifted to the left of where it should be.

09-1312
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8714/28352182711_93de0381a9_o.png


Note the shadow of the control bar push-out. The tug's out of the frame but we still have a bit of the shadow of the port wingtip in the lower right corner.

10-1405
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8474/28352182181_5e9d0785a4_o.png


Last frame in which we have tug wingtip shadow and thus know tug position. Following five frames are consecutive.

11-1409
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8587/28352181611_c8be8ed535_o.png


Tug and shadow gone from next three consecutive frames. Tug position "unknown" for 0.13 seconds.

12-1410
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8695/28326026552_c4f203b36d_o.png


Probable max tug/glider misalignment:

13-1411
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8720/28326025582_63f13b4cb2_o.png

14-1412
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8766/28326024622_b83179b35d_o.png


Port wingtip reappears.

15-1413
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8687/28147878720_a1efdcc4be_o.png


Tug rolling left to adjust for glider drift.

16-1500
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Another damn good example of what a crock is the eternal whine from tug drivers about out-of-position gliders compromising control and endangering them. The glider's higher than a fuckin' kite and the tug's still tail-down and climbing out just fine. Glider FINALLY begins a wimpy pull-in at this point.

17-1604
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18-1621
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19-1710
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20-1719
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Max pull-in of the flight - for on and off tow. (Careful you don't get it beyond VNE dude.)

21-1810
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22-1906
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23-1928
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Tug's rolling right so we know that the glider ISN'T out of position to the left.

24-2026
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8729/27814247194_1beaf29b2f_o.png


Last frame of full tow tension.

25-2102
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8726/27814246064_afceb823a8_o.png


First frame of zero tow tension.

26-2103
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8893/27814244894_a45d7f718a_o.png


Glider gets the rope. Whatever was going on back there has been fixed...

27-2106
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8571/27814243704_66d26f0165_o.png


...and now we go into inconvenience mode. Note that the nose has barely dropped so we know we weren't doing a helluva lotta tension during the climb.

28-2310
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8863/27814242824_4d5171e9f4_o.png


Windsock (coinciding with a glider shadow in this shot) showing light tail.

29-2517
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Any thoughts on making the easy reach to the lever velcroed onto your starboard control tube to blow your Lockout Mountain Flight Park release that isn't warranted as suitable for towing anything and getting rid of that 250 feet of Spectra you have draped over your basetube before you start your landing skim?

30-2600
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Just kidding. Well, go ahead and get that gear down. Ya never know when you're gonna need to do a no-stepper in a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place.

31-2611
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33-2910
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Yep. Get those hands up there on the control tubes.

34-3011
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Now punch that flare and stop it on a dime.

35-3628
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36-3720
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38-3826
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39-3900
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40-3907
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41-3920
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42-3928
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28-11505
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34-12413
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Jump to top:
http://www.kitestrings.org/post9540.html#p9540

[<BS>]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?p=389658#389658
OUCH!

[Tad Eareckson]

Yeah, I've been keeping eyes on the douchebag colonies discussions. And speaking of douchebags...

The tug driver in this one is a total douchebag for at least two reasons:
- pretty much all of them are
- this glider is dumped when he's in really good position

Look at the following sequence of photos.

- I've copied 05-1110 into the odd points in the sequence (every other shot) as the reference because the glider is by definition in perfect position.

- The four even point shots are chronologically sequential and - save for the last immediately before the glider is dumped - document poor alignments including my two candidates for the worst: 13-1411 and 20-1719.

05-1110 - perfect
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8608/27814265934_decd2df2f2_o.png

09-1312 - high and left
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8714/28352182711_93de0381a9_o.png

05-1110 - perfect
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8608/27814265934_decd2df2f2_o.png

13-1411 - high and way left
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8720/28326025582_63f13b4cb2_o.png

05-1110 - perfect
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8608/27814265934_decd2df2f2_o.png

20-1719 - way high and left
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8854/28326016972_d73ca9d8dd_o.png

05-1110 - perfect
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8608/27814265934_decd2df2f2_o.png

25-2102 - Tug is 1.5 tug heights low and 1.5 tug wingspans to the left of perfect. One frame before the glider gets the rope.
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8726/27814246064_afceb823a8_o.png

05-1110 - perfect
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8608/27814265934_decd2df2f2_o.png


There was absolutely no reason for the glider to get dumped with the towline at 26-2103:

26-2103
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8893/27814244894_a45d7f718a_o.png


The glider's in great position, it appears that his brain has started functioning at some minimal level, the tug's climbing well and gently rolled to the right to compensate, the towline's under rather minimal tension, and the glider isn't not even waived off. I don't think this asshole dumped him. I think his shot fuzzy Dragonfly tow mast breakaway protector vaporized and increased the safety of the towing operation...

40-3907
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8687/28430757245_5f1b99e155_o.png


...with a fairly typical result. (Yeah, he doesn't have the wherewithal to stay in any kind of tow position but, don't worry, he's gonna be able to pull off a perfectly timed...

Gil Dodgen - 1995/01

All of this reminds me of a comment Mike Meier made when he was learning to fly sailplanes. He mentioned how easy it was to land a sailplane (with spoilers for glide-path control and wheels), and then said, "If other aircraft were as difficult to land as hang gliders no one would fly them."

...stunt landing after zilch setup time and with 250 of Spectra draped over his basetube and dragging.

Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"A bad flyer won't hurt a pin man but a bad pin man can kill a flyer." - Bill Bennett
"Never take your hands off the bar." - Tom Peghiny
"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson

"Yeah, I was worried about your flying and decided it would be prudent to give you the rope." Then he can go sneak a fresh weak link on his bridle no problem. Really no problem 'cause they were gonna break for lunch right after this tow anyway.

Towing Aloft - 1998/01

Pro Tip: Always thank the tug pilot for intentionally releasing you, even if you feel you could have ridden it out. He should be given a vote of confidence that he made a good decision in the interest of your safety.

Fuck those guys and that Chattanooga area cesspool.

[Tad Eareckson]

Jump to next post:
http://www.kitestrings.org/post9546.html#p9546

See edit note at bottom.
---
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=48799
Don't try to roll in on small wheels

Davis Straub - 2016/07/18 19:20:52 UTC

Don't try to roll in on small wheels

Bad Tow Worse Landing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MP5-aSHvQZs
Net Mangler - 2016/07/18
dead

He DOESN'T *TRY* to land on his small wheels, dickhead. He TRIES to pull off a stupid stunt landing...

36-3720
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...the way his dickheaded Lockout instructors programmed him to.

40-3907
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If he'd have tried to land on his wheels he would have and he'd have been fine.

They just won't roll right through the grass enough...

They rolled right through the grass just fine and the glider came to a gradual, smooth, gentle stop.

42-3928
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7530/28430755915_8e789e6e33_o.png

...to keep the grass stains off

Show me a pair of wheels big enough to keep the grass stains off...

34-12413
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...dickhead.

Are you capable of reporting on, discussing ANYTHING without distorting, misrepresenting, lying about what's going on? What's the deal? Force of habit? The thrill of getting away with shit? Addiction? Can't help yourself?

Gregg Ludwig - 2016/07/19 14:53:55 UTC

These educational videos are great as they provide for good discussion as well as some entertainment value.

Hope you're getting some good entertainment value 'cause I'm sure not seeing much in the way of discussion happening on Davis's moribund little cult.

I assume the pilot shared this video so thanks for that.

It sure wasn't shared or commented on by Lockout. Does that tell ya anything?

I'm not sure where to start but the subject title should be changed as the wheels worked perfectly in preventing a whack.

Gawd fuckin' damn right.

They look like an aftermarket wheel kit and they worked well.

Too bad there was no pilot anywhere close by while they were working well.

It looks like the launch marshal did a good job confirming the pilot was ready to go...

Oh really? I think I could pull some jerk off the street, do an hour's worth of classroom, then send him up and get better results than that.

...however, it may not be wise to launch a novice pilot...

How do you know he was a novice pilot? He's "flying" a double surface glider.

...with another airplane parked ahead on the runway.

If he may not be competent enough to miss the other airplane parked ahead on the runway...

09-1312
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8714/28352182711_93de0381a9_o.png


...do we really wanna be sending him up at all?

The launch marshal should not signal a t/o with the pilot pushed all the way out. The pilot should not start the t/o roll pushed all the way out.

So you're saying that this is actually a...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Davis Straub - 2011/09/03 01:39:55 UTC

I think that I know the one that is being referred to.

The problem was an inexperienced female student put on a cart that had the keel cradle way too high, so she was pinned to the cart. The folks working at Lookout who helped her were incompetent.

...pretty incompetent operation?

The pilot should follow the plane on climbout which often requires level flight right off the cart to wait for the tug to lift off and climb.

Do WE need to be told this?

There's a serious core problem with this operation and you're poking around at the symptoms.

If/when the tug pilot releases the towline...

The tug "pilot" didn't release the towline. His fuzzed out tow mast breakaway protector gave up the ghost just as the glider was starting to get things reasonably right.

...the pilot should immediately pull in to maintain good flying speed and of course release the towline rather than landing while dragging 200ft of towline.

So why are we focusing on this pilot and ignoring the dickheads who were supposed to have taught and qualified him?

At altitude, of course, the pilot can carry (drag) the towline to the field for a bomb drop which allows recovery of the towline.

Then we can sneak on a new tow mast breakaway protector while nobody's looking and reconnect.

The pilot should consider a different glider that would be easier to control and land while improving flying skills.

Bullshit. He made no effort to control the glider he had. And his problem was pretty much all pitch and that's gonna be EASIER to control on a faster glider.

Pilot's often receive critical comments but intended in the interest of safety and improving skills so hang in there and work it out.

And kudos to Matt and his...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=20756
How is Zach Etheridge doing?

Bob Flynn - 2011/02/04 11:26:34 UTC

Lookout keeps this kind of stuff under their hat. You never hear of accidents there. But every time I go there, I hear about quite a few. Blown launches, tree landings, etc.

...top notch program.

08-43827
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Keep up the really great work, guys.

1:00
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNq1WKy0EqE

18-10115
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19-10127
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20-10202
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21-10206
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22-10211
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23-10215
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24-10221
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25-10223
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27-10225
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29-10304
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---
Edit - 2016/08/05 10:00:00 UTC

This entry was originally posted as:
http://www.kitestrings.org/post9543.html#p9543
at:
2016/07/21 01:57:17 UTC

Shortly thereafter began our Server Migration Disaster of 2016/07/21-4. See the post - 2016/07/24 16:46:38 UTC - at the link above and the one following in the "Welcome" thread.

So this original 9543 post - 58134 hits on the thread at the moment of submission - was eaten and its number became again available for Brian's post which was the first after Zack got us revived.

Just figured this out with great difficulty this morning when I discovered a serious discrepancy between my word processing archive and what was actually appearing online.

So in order to get and keep things properly sequential I've re-posted the/my most recent "Releases" submission and moved the other/previous two posts forward a slot and pasted in this one in proper order.

Jump to top:
http://www.kitestrings.org/post9545.html#p9545

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34571
OUCH!

Dave Pendzick - 2016/07/19 18:24:47 UTC

Bad Tow Worse Landing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MP5-aSHvQZs
Net Mangler - 2016/07/18
dead

Not sure whether to be concerned or to laugh.

When in doubt, laugh. Hard to go wrong.

Hope he figured his shit out.

Since the instruction he paid for so obviously totally sucks.

Bill Jennings - 2016/07/19 18:42:08 UTC

Ugly tow, tug pilot had to give him the rope.

Oh. The tug pilot HAD to give him the rope...

25-2102
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8726/27814246064_afceb823a8_o.png


- Why? Show me a frame in which the control authority of either plane was being appreciably compromised.
- What evidence do we have that it was the tug pilot - and not his Dragonfly's tow mast breakaway protector - that gave the glider the rope?

I think I know who this is.

Who? The fuckin' worm had pulled his video...



...prior to 2016/07/24 19:15:48 UTC when I'd resumed work on this one. Motherfucker's gonna have a hard time getting these stills...

40-3907
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8687/28430757245_5f1b99e155_o.png


...taken down off the web though.

Jack Axaopoulos - 2016/07/19 18:45:21 UTC

His youtube comment is awesome:

"You can save your critical feedback. I've already received more than enough. I'm posting this simply because it's too damn funny to keep to myself."

Suck my dick, Jack.

NMERider - 2016/07/19 18:47:25 UTC

What a good sport.

See the update, Jonathan.

We need him on the Org.

The people NEEDED on the Org tend to get banned.

RBT - 2016/07/20 01:33:29 UTC
Queensland

I am still a student atm...

When are you expecting to become a fully qualified Automatic Teller Machine?

...and am Interested in his landing.

Yeah. Fascinating.

To me, it all looked to be going o.k until his flare, when he just pushed out rather than up. Is this correct?

Idiot.

TIA

You're welcome.

Dan Lukaszewicz - 2016/07/20 02:38:05 UTC

It wasn't the worst I've seen by a long shot. He would have pulled it off if he wasn't such a flare potato...

Yeah Dan. He comes off the cart...

06-1126
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8561/27814264704_cb518862b4_o.png


...with his arms locked straight fucking out and climbs...

20-1719
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8854/28326016972_d73ca9d8dd_o.png


...like he's doing a goddam truck tow. But let's have a discussion about his flare timing. That's about all you assholes are capable of discussing anyway.

...and if would have flared by pushing up instead of out.

Fuckin' moron.

The glider stops in its tracks when it hits the grass and the pilot bounces off the ground.

Bull fucking shit on both counts.

I like to round out a foot or two above the ground so that when I flare the glider has a bit of time to rotate and I have a chance to get my feet under me to run.

I thought the whole idea behind your idiot stunt landings...

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...was to have all forward motion fully arrested before your feet touch the surface of the narrow dry riverbed with the large rocks strewn all over the place.

Glad he was ok and in good spirits.

And also glad that nobody's looking at his instructional program.

Ken Howells - 2016/07/20 02:46:07 UTC
San Bernardino

Get Upright

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Get fucked.

He never really went upright...

Neither did Niki - at any time between plopping herself onto the cart and coming to a full stop back on the runway. And what she did as a Baby Two can never be improved upon by anyone as far as the fundamentals are concerned.

...and his hands are low on the downtubes so the flare had no chance of being effective.

Get fucked.

His hands WERE up by his ears, but his ears were way low

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27086
Steve Pearson on landings

Steve Pearson - 2012/03/28 23:26:05 UTC

I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.

Also, he appears to fly down to the ground at trim - should have pulled in a bit to allow a roundout and ground skim.

- Ya think?
- That's why he should be up on the control tubes. Makes pulling in so much easier and more effective.

Glad he rolled with the punches.

Glad he's survived his Lockout Mountain Flight Park training and its consequences as long as he has.

Dave Pendzick - 2016/07/20 05:08:46 UTC

When he was in the cart it appeared that his arms were all the way pushed out.

It...

04-1016
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05-1110
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...APPEARED? What do we need? Notarized statements from Net Mangler and his cart monkey?

Is this normal?

Yes, Dave. This is perfectly normal. Go through the YouTube videos. EVERYBODY locks his arms straight out...

03610
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...coming off the cart...

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...and climbing.

Did not look right to me. The landing really deserves no comments. He screwed it up. Nuff said.

Problem solved.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34571
OUCH!

Nic Welbourn - 2016/07/20 05:33:23 UTC

Dave Pendzick - 2016/07/20 05:08:46 UTC

When he was in the cart it appeared that his arms were all the way pushed out.

I wonder about that too. Almost buried a tip off the cart too...

Don't you need to get the tip reasonably close to the ground...

06-1126
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...before you get much hope of burying it?

...maybe related to his pushing out / airspeed?

Craig Hassan - 2016/07/20 10:46:51 UTC

Dan Lukaszewicz - 2016/07/20 02:38:05 UTC

The glider stops in its tracks when it hits the grass...

The glider rolls just fine.

Look everybody. Craig got something RIGHT.

It is the pilot who comes to an abrupt halt.

Lessee... The glider rolls just fine but the pilot comes to an abrupt halt. The pilot who's connected to the glider.

Bill Jennings - 2016/07/20 11:22:15 UTC

If this is who I think it is, he's now getting back into flying after breaking his arm.

Great instructional program ya got down there, Lockout.

It looks to me that he lets go of the DTs right before the basetube hits the grass.

He gets stripped off of the downtubes 'cause he drags while the glider rolls.

Bill Jennings - 2016/07/20 12:49:57 UTC

I was trained to maintain the natural hang position.

People who understand what the fuck they're doing and why tend not to talk about what they were TRAINED to do.

IOW, not pushing out, just resisting enough such that you don't get pulled forward towards or through the triangle.

How 'bout flying the fucking glider in accordance with what's going on?

Brian Scharp - 2016/07/20 23:09:36 UTC

You mean he broke his arm in this video?

No.

Matthew Hendershot - 2016/07/21 06:50:40 UTC

According to the comments, he was using the wrong cart--intended for a small glider, giving him the too-high AOA.

Bull fucking shit. I guess by your way of thinking if someone gets into launch position on the ramp on top of the ridge with his nose too high he's automatically fucked for the launch and, assuming he survives that much, the rest of the flight and landing.

He knew this--and only intended to use that cart to tote his glider to the proper cart, but forgot, and launched instead.

Fuckin' moron.

Bill Jennings - 2016/07/21 11:43:47 UTC

No, earlier.

Lemme guess... Imperfectly timed flare?

Tormod Helgesen - 2016/07/22 21:55:21 UTC

It's way better with a to high AOA on the cart than the oposite

The shortage of letters and punctuation marks continues. Must have something related to global warming.

piano_man - 2016/07/22 22:26:26 UTC
Georgia

Another factor - than those already mentioned - he landed (probably) with a slight tailwind. Notice the windsock @ 24 seconds.

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When landing downwind, timing becomes more critical.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2Gd2kcyOes


- "Oh, that's so much more brainless than landing on your feet!"
- "That was beautiful!"
- "That was a GREAT landing, Rotor!"
- "Who cares if it's downwind!"
- "Ooh shit, that was awesome!"

1-2717c
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http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1571/24687001246_a94698f742_o.png
6-4518c

Had he punched it (his flare) about 1 second earlier (at 35 or 36 seconds) - and ready to run it out - he prolly woulda been fine. The dude's an animal.

Get fucked.

Garrett Speeter - 2016/07/23 20:06:00 UTC

I have ran myself over with a three wheeler before but haven't managed to do it with a hang glider...yet.
A lot can go wrong in towing.

There's shitloads already wrong with towing before you get on the cart or truck - and by deliberate design. Go fuck yourself, Garrett. The sport deserves whatever happens to it.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34401
A release for aerotow

JohnC - 2016/05/27 10:16:30 UTC
Wiltshire, UK

Discussion of aerotow releases on this forum has been reignited by a tragic event in the US. I am really reluctant to join in, but maybe on balance it is appropriate to contribute.

There is a bewildering variety of released for aerotow out there. Maybe a reason for this is that they all have issues and no single solution has drawn the consensus as suitable for all needs.

I like aerotowing very much, but have always been concerned about the attachment and release part of the process. This has lead me to try out a good selection of what there is; chest mounted lever, cable with finger loop, barrel, "push pull" barrel, link knife, and to examine others like the three-ring-circus and the recently much discussed Russian mouth release.

All made me unhappy in various ways. So I fell back on techniques from my day job (reliability engineer), to do a semi-formal analysis of the process of aerotow. This covered various phases of the process (including rigging, pre-roll, rolling, emergency and non-emergency release at different altitudes, post release and landing). It is NOT something I am going to write up here. I am not an aviation or hang gliding expert, it was for my neck, and this is not the place to critically review an FMEA.

However the outcome was that I built a release that I now use and am comfortable with. It might be of interest to someone. I do not imply that the design is fit for purpose or that anyone should attempt to duplicate it or use it:
The least bad solution for me is a type of link cutter. It has residual risks - for instance it does need a hand to operate - but that is mitigated by speed with an easy to find handle mounted on the harness. The cutter itself is similar to Peter Birren's Link Knife, but addresses a couple of reliability issues I find that design has.

Pictures attached. On one end of the chest bridle is the cutter. (The cutter cannot damage the bridle, even releasing from a slack line). On the other end is a conventional barrel. Combining two different design concepts is intentional. The handle is attached to the lower tow loop on the harness. On my Tenax, the front pocket can be used to tuck away the free hanging cutter after release. Not clear from these photos, but in practice the cutter does not come anywhere near the pilots face.

JC

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-
WW U2 145
WW Sport 2 155
Tenax 3

Discussion of aerotow releases on this forum has been reignited by a tragic event in the US.

- Ain't hang glider people just great at having tragic events in the US ignite discussions!

- Don't worry, hang glider people have the attentions spans of puppies so the discussions were all safely extinguished after a couple weeks and we're back to maximizing track record lengths.

- Negligent homicide plus Darwin Effect.

I am really reluctant to join in...

I wouldn't be. What you've developed is just more totally stupid crap and will thus present a threat to no one so feel free to knock yourself out with it.

I...but maybe on balance it is appropriate to contribute.

What could be the harm? In the entire decade long history of The Jack Show nobody's ever posted anything that's made any difference to anything one way or another.

IThere is a bewildering variety of released...

Released WHAT?

I...for aerotow out there.

Out WHERE? Go to any substantial AT operation anywhere on the planet and tell me how bewildering the variety of release equipment there is. Did anybody at the latest Quest fuckfest have so much as a barrel release with a straight parachute pin? Was anybody even flying two point?

IMaybe a reason for this is that they all have issues and no single solution has drawn the consensus as suitable for all needs.

Yeah, we'll probably just hafta keep living with the same bewildering variety of released we have been for the previous quarter of a century.

II like aerotowing very much...

Me too. I really love having my:
- weak link strength predetermined by the Dragonfly tow mast breakaway protector
- life in the hands of some non hang glider pilot dickhead who:
-- violates every AT FAA reg and u$hPa SOP he can think of
-- declares himself to be Pilot In Command of my aircraft
-- dictates what equipment I can and can't fly with
-- can fix whatever's going on back there by giving me the rope

What's your attraction? All the insane and unnecessary risks you take every time you get on a cart?

I...but have always been concerned about the attachment and release part of the process.

Just use something with a really long track record. You'll almost always be fine. And if you're killed it will only be because you thought you could a fix bad thing and didn't wanna start over.

IThis has lead me to try out a good selection of what there is; chest mounted lever, cable with finger loop, barrel, "push pull" barrel, link knife, and to examine others like the three-ring-circus and the recently much discussed Russian mouth release.

What was it that you didn't like about my system?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/albums/72057594141352219
Aerotow Release System | Flickr

Too many parts?

IAll made me unhappy in various ways.

Did you talk to Davis Dead-On Straub?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24534
It's a wrap

Davis Straub - 2011/07/30 19:51:54 UTC

I'm very happy with the way Quest Air (Bobby Bailey designed) does it now.

http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident2.jpg
http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident3.jpg


If he's happy with something it's really hard to find people unhappy with it. 'Specially on the Jack and Davis Shows.

ISo I fell back on techniques from my day job (reliability engineer)...

Did you ever have Bill Bryden as a supervisor?

I...to do a semi-formal analysis of the process of aerotow.

With a big emphasis on the SEMI. (Dontchya just LOVE the way...

IDr. Trisa Tilletti - 2012/06

We could get into details of lab testing weak links and bridles, but this article is already getting long. That would be a good topic for an article in the future. Besides, with our backgrounds in formal research, you and I both know that lab tests may produce results with good internal validity, but are often weak in regard to external validity--meaning lab conditions cannot completely include all the factors and variability that exists in the big, real world.

...LOAD TESTING is universally excluded from all discussions about hang glider towing and tow equipment.)

IThis covered various phases of the process (including rigging, pre-roll, rolling, emergency and non-emergency release...

The NON-emergency release scenarios are the ones that are real problematic for us. Hope you got things well ironed out in that department.

I...at different altitudes...

What the fuck does the altitude hafta do with anything?

THIS:

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3107
I have a tandem rating!!!

Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC

When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less), but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it. The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.

Anyhow, the tandem can indeed perform big wingovers, as I demonstrated when I finally got separated from the tug.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3391
More on Zapata and weak link

Paul Tjaden - 2008/07/22 04:32:22 UTC

I have never had a lockout situation happen so quickly and dramatically and had no chance to release as I have always thought I could do.

...fucking BULLSHIT is OK 'cause those assholes happened to be high enough to get away with not having their heads driven into their chest cavities?

I...post release and landing).

Glad you covered landing. That's always a real biggie in aerotow release issues.

IIt is NOT something I am going to write up here.

- Thank you so much for sparing us.

- So when and where ARE you going to write it up? The web isn't big enough? You're running a bit low on ones and zeros? We just had an airline pilot killed flying the usual Industry Standard total crap, you've developed something your presenting as less lethal, so why the fuck can't you be bothered to do a solid write-up?

II am not an aviation or hang gliding expert...

- Thank you for making the distinction between aviation and hang gliding.

- So the fuck what? Tell me just how much expertise one needs in order to be able to develop something better than the bottom 99 percent of what's being flown anyway.

- Name some hang gliding experts whose opinions we can trust. Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney presented himself and was presented and hailed as the greatest thing to hit hang gliding since aluminum tubing and Team Kite Strings ripped him so many new assholes that he will never again be able to post anything on anything of the slightest degree of substance.

- If there were hang gliding experts substantially more qualified than you are wouldn't they have already developed equipment substantially better than what you have and gotten it into the air?

it was for my neck, and this is not the place to critically review an FMEA.

Nah, this is the place for some Jack Show piece o' crap like Paul Hurless to tell us that in three minutes he designed a system vastly superior to Tad's Rube Goldberg bullshit; never bother building, sketching, or describing it; and totally getting away with it.

IHowever the outcome was that I built a release that I now use and am comfortable with.

- Maybe you'll be HAPPY with Version 2.0.

- Fuckin' Jeff Bohl was COMFORTABLE with the bent pin pro toad shit he was flying - all the way up until a fair bit into his final flight.

- Wanna see somebody else obviously very comfortable with what he was flying - ALSO at QUEST? (A mere one AT fatality ago.)

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And the day after he posted that video...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg

It might be of interest to someone.

Don't worry, I'm ALWAYS interested in more tow equipment that stinks on ice.

I do not imply that the design is fit for purpose or that anyone should attempt to duplicate it or use it:

You should apply for an engineering position with Lockout Mountain Flight Park.

The least bad solution for me is a type of link cutter.

- Go figure.

- Why did you go to all the trouble you did for your release system? A properly sized weak link will ALWAYS work much better than any release ever could. Properly sized weak links are INFALLABLE. The best we can do with a release is RELIABLE.

- And I see you're using an exceptionally safe weak link in your system:

DSC02879c1


Lemme guess... 130 pound Greenspot? Certainly not one of those deadly Tad-O-Links:

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like the one that precipitated the recent tragic event in the US and very nearly also precipitated a tragic event in the US on the tug pilot. (Odd the way everyone's bending over backwards to not discuss it...

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8394/8696380718_787dbc0005_o.png


...dontchya think?)

- What's so special about you that you find what you developed is the least bad decision FOR *YOU*? You got three hands or sumpin'? Name some other inventors, developers who qualify their products in terms like that.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22660
What can be learned from this "scooter" towing accident?

Jim Rooney - 2011/02/06 18:35:13 UTC

The minute someone starts telling me about their "perfect"system, I start walking away.

Me? My inclination is to start walking away when people DON'T start telling me about their perfect system. Big fuckin' red flag tip-off that they've done half-assed jobs and know it. Such is EXACTLY the case with your contribution.

Anybody who's worth shit in this game will have looked at the best technology in existence and tweaked it up or introduced something new and better. That's how hang gliders themselves evolved and ever since 1979 it's pretty much all been tweaking the Comet design. And we will NEVER see anything significantly better in hang gliders than what we've had for the past decade and a half or so.

All you've done is tweak the Linknife design to make it a little better (can no longer be neutralized by a bit o' wheat stubble) and the fuckin' Linknife was and is a dead-end branch off the evolutionary tree. It NEVER addressed any actual problems in hang glider towing and never will. And its developer is a major dickhead who did a lot of damage to the sport and we'll never hear another word from him - same way we always tended to never hear any words from him after all our previous fatalities that didn't fit into his myopic, inbred little concept of towing hang gliders.

It has residual risks - for instance it does need a hand to operate -

Big fuckin' deal. If there were any releases that didn't need a dedicated hand to operate that worked in reality we'd all be using them already.

...but that is mitigated by speed with an easy to find handle mounted on the harness.

Goddam right...

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As long as your release is easy to find...

Dennis Pagen - 2005/01

I didn't want to release, because I was so close to the ground and I knew that the glider would be in a compromised attitude. In addition, there were hangars and trees on the left, which is the way the glider was tending. By the time we gained about 60 feet I could no longer hold the glider centered - I was probably at a 20-degree bank - so I quickly released before the lockout to the side progressed. The glider instantly whipped to the side in a wingover maneuver.

...you're fuckin' golden.

The cutter itself is similar to Peter Birren's Link Knife, but addresses a couple of reliability issues I find that design has.

Oh. You found that Peter Birren's Linknife has a couple of reliability issues? How 'bout Peter Birren? Why do you think it is that u$hPa's award winning release designer...

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/6726
Weaklinks

Peter Birren - 2008/10/27 23:41:49 UTC

You trying to tell me the pilot had time to release? Not a prayer.

I know about this type of accident because it happened to me, breaking 4 ribs and my larynx... and I was aerotowing using a dolly. The sh*t happened so fast there was no room for thought much less action. But I wasn't dragged because the weaklink did its job and broke immediately on impact.

Imagine if you will, just coming off the cart and center punching a thermal which takes you instantly straight up while the tug is still on the ground. Know what happens? VERY high towline forces and an over-the-top lockout. You'll have both hands on the basetube pulling it well past your knees but the glider doesn't come down and still the weaklink doesn't break (.8G). So you pull whatever release you have but the one hand still on the basetube isn't enough to hold the nose down and you pop up and over into an unplanned semi-loop. Been there, done that... at maybe 200 feet agl.

...did absolutely nothing himself in the two decades that his miracle release has been around to address any reliability issues? Too busy ignoring and ducking real world scenarios?

Pictures attached. On one end of the...

...looooong thin...

...chest bridle is the cutter.

The device whose effectiveness increases in direct proportion to tension.

DSC02597
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7788/28345068900_51ba24fddf_o.png

(The cutter cannot damage the bridle, even releasing from a slack line).

(Great idea configuring such that it only sees half the towline tension. (Does anybody know what zero divided by two is?))

On the other end is a conventional barrel.

Yep...

DSC02879c2


EXTREMELY...

http://ozreport.com/goodies.php
Oz Report goodies

http://ozreport.com/pub/images/P3300017320085.jpg


...conventional. The one that everyone and his dog knows...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/10 22:58:21 UTC

I'm not bothered by straight pin releases.
I do think the strong link guys gravitate to them due to the higher release tensions that strong links can encounter.

...won't function at all under any kinda load. Also totally sucks slack line - dickhead.

Combining two different design concepts is intentional.

The bent pin barrel release isn't a design concept. It's a piece o' junk a total moron pulled outta his stupid ass.

And I really like the way you've got the release that loves tension and never feels any load whatsoever protected by a weak link and the release which will weld itself shut under any significant load and will instantly be feeling double load in the only scenario it will be used as a backup - bridle wrap - with no weak link protection whatsoever.

The handle is attached to the lower tow loop on the harness.

Since you're launching, towing, flying prone and tow loops are always paired, wouldn't that be ONE (in your case - the port) of your AFT tow loops?

On my Tenax, the front pocket can be used to tuck away the free hanging cutter after release.

- Assuming you're still alive - which, in either of the last two Quest AT fatality scenarios, you won't be.
- Yeah, people of varying ages - easily stowable. HUGE issue with pro toad releases.

Not clear from these photos, but in practice the cutter does not come anywhere near the pilots face.

- The way an apostrophe never comes anywhere near the word "pilots".
- HUGE improvement over all those other releases that are always coming somewhere near the pilots' faces.

Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"A bad flyer won't hurt a pin man but a bad pin man can kill a flyer." - Bill Bennett
"Never take your hands off the bar." - Tom Peghiny
"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson

And almost ever since the goal of hang gliding culture is to kill those three common sense fundamentals and go as far as possible to the opposite extremes. And this asshole is covering all those bases and more with this total piece o' crap further distraction from the decent stuff a few of us have worked to develop and get into circulation.
- Forced removal of hand from the bar in all situations - benign and critical emergency.
- Davis Link to guarantee a rope break in at least twenty percent of one's efforts to get safely airborne.
- And anybody who'd tow crap like this is - by definition - a bad pin man.

Also... There aren't any great quotes in Manned Kiting about having an upper attachment to trim the glider with a forward pulling tow 'cause it was pretty much unimaginable that anyone wouldn't have one. Then about twenty years ago... Oh look. We can tow shoulders only without getting killed most of the time...

Great job, John. Really knocked it outta the park.

Reliability engineer my ass. I pity the victims of the consequences of him doing his day job. Oughta have his credentials permanently revoked.
---
Edit - 2016/08/05 10:00:00 UTC

I'm reposting this most recent here (58590 hits at the moment - five additional since original submission) in order to create an extra slot to re-enter a post that was shredded shortly after it appeared in the course of the recent server migration. See the post and explanation of this musical chairs exercise at:
http://www.kitestrings.org/post9544.html#p9544

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34401
A release for aerotow

mrcc - 2016/05/27 11:01:25 UTC
Auckland

Nice simple enhancement to the barrel release.

You mean the nice simple easily stowed bent pin barrel release that left Jeff Bohl zero option for survival when he let his glider start getting out of control shortly after takeoff at Quest on 2016/05/21?

With all the recent towing accidents having a secondary release doesn't sound like a bad idea.

- And tertiaries. Think hook knife. The more easily reachable devices you have that give you zero chance of survival in a low level lockout scenario the better your chances of survival. Two or three times zero is always a lot better than one times zero.

- So speaking of backup releases...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 17:34:33 UTC

Remember, a weak link improves safety.
Say it over and over and over in your head until it sinks in.

What did you think of the performance of Jeff's Tad-O-Link? A bit odd, dontchya think, that NOBODY's saying anything about it not breaking when it was supposed to - after all the warnings we've had about what would most assuredly happen to us if even the heaviest motherfucker at the meet went an ounce over:



This:

The least bad solution for me is a type of link cutter.

is the ONLY reference to a weak link in the thread. And he doesn't even use the adjective "weak" - despite the fact that one he's using will break on six consecutive gliders in light morning conditions. Apparently it's not supposed to break before you can get into too much trouble, increase the safety of the towing operation, and/or be used as an instant hands free release in a lockout by the pilot pitching out abruptly and flying away. Its sole purpose seems to be to be cut by a link cutter and replaced.

Davis Straub - 2016/05/27 11:51:17 UTC

What problem are you addressing here?

Inadequate penis size.

-
Davis Straub at the Oz Report

You're not at the Oz Report. You're in Jack's Living Room.

JohnC - 2016/05/27 12:23:47 UTC

Relative to barrel alone?

1. Operation time.
For me the time to operate the cutter is shorter and is consistent.

But just for YOU. 'Cause you've got three hands.

The handle is always in the same place on my body. It doesn't even require fingers to find anything, just a swipe with the thumb, flat of the hand or wrist will do it.

And the glider, of course, will adhere to the terms of the agreement you made with it and not exploit the compromise of your control to instantly whipped to the side in a wingover maneuver or pop up and over into an unplanned semi-loop the way it did to Dennis and Peter respectively.

2. Releasing from a slack line.
The cutter works on a slack line just as well as taut.

No, it very obviously DOESN'T. The more tension the better it's gonna work. Period. It'll work plenty well enough but no fuckin' way AS well.

Maybe a corner case, but important to me.

Pretty much a non issue in towing. If the line's slack you're not in any kind of lockout that's gonna be mitigated by dumping the line.

Others with greater experience may have more perspective on the importance of one-handed release from a slack line.

Right. You need EXPRERIENCE to understand different emergency release scenarios.

(I did try the type of barrel with a bungee connection that can be pushed to release a slack line -

THIS:



piece o' crap.

...but the particular one I had was too easy to operate unintentionally by contact with the base bar).

The other ones are probably much better.

That's it. A fraction of a second in actuation time and slack line performance. Nothing about:
- there being nothing to grip in order to start trying to pry Davis's easily stowable release open
- load capacity and load to actuation ratio
Reasonably fine piece o' hardware - all things considered.

To clarify I use the cutter as my primary, rather than a back-up to the barrel.

Smart move. Why leave your weak link intact in nonemergency releases when you have the opportunity to cut and replace it each flight.

Davis Straub - 2016/05/27 12:30:28 UTC

Thanks.

Great work.

Hell Davis... He's not Tad. Fuckin' FANTASTIC work. 'Specially seeing as how it incorporates your personal Goodie flavor bent pin barrel piece o' shit.

Just to be clear, this does not address the issues raised by the accident here at the Quest Air Open (releasing quickly and keeping one's hands on the base tube).

- C'mon Davis. He made it PERFECTLY clear that it stank on ice just as much as all the other crap western hang gliding allows to get into circulation. If it would've averted the "ACCIDENT" there at the Quest Air Open...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32776
Can't release the tow line

Davis Straub - 2015/08/03 13:05:54 UTC

Perfect.

...you'd find some reason for and/or means of making sure nobody ever got to fly them.

- Yes. The issues raised by the accident there at the Quest Air Open. Before the accident there at the Quest Air Open nobody ever before considered the freak scenario in which there'd be a significant advantage to be able to release quickly while keeping one's hands on the basetube.

JohnC - 2016/05/27 12:48:15 UTC

For sure. Releasing when and only when commanded, quickly, without moving a hand off the base bar would be ideal.

Well yeah. But then you'd hafta go to the trouble of engineering an actuation system. And that would require complexity. And complexity always makes release systems absolutely lethal. A complex release system will kill you while you're loading the glider on the cart nine outta ten times.

I haven't found or been able to create a solution for those needs that didn't create other problems like complexity, reliability, method of operation, comfort etc.

- You could've stopped at complexity. Five times what we needed right there.
- And you're too fuckin' stupid to look at stuff that other people have done years and decades before you that works beautifully.

But it's a close call.

- What's a close call?

- A close call is exactly what assholes like you need to start seriously thinking about doing things right.

- But I one hundred percent guarantee you that if Jeff had gotten away with a month in the hospital he won't have lifted a fuckin' finger to help us fix this situation.

http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7394/27205018655_892d8a0852_o.jpg


John Simon on the left. Carrier and airline pilot. Jeff's body hasn't yet cooled more than two degrees. VERY minimal interest in the work Steve and I were doing at Ridgely. Never even heard of Jeff Bohl by that point.

For many or even most, a mouth release may be a very good solution indeed.

Probably just a geographical thing though - mostly applicable to Eastern Europe.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34401
A release for aerotow

Davis Straub - 2016/05/27 13:03:15 UTC

Yes, there are indeed issues with the mouth releases also...

FUCK!!!

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3107
I have a tandem rating!!!

Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC

When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less), but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it. The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.

Anyhow, the tandem can indeed perform big wingovers, as I demonstrated when I finally got separated from the tug.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3391
More on Zapata and weak link

Paul Tjaden - 2008/07/22 04:32:22 UTC

I have never had a lockout situation happen so quickly and dramatically and had no chance to release as I have always thought I could do.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21033
barrels release without any tension except weight of rope..

Bart Weghorst - 2011/02/25 19:06:26 UTC

Most of the time. But I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use two hands to get the pin out of the barrel.
No stress because I was high.

They have ISSUES!

27-44400
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8625/16019976468_1f060f370c_o.png

07-300


15-413

The Herald on Sunday - 2009/01/10

Hurt hang glider pilot joked bravely with friends after a crash landing, unaware that his injuries were fatal.

No way in hell I'm gonna use a mission critical piece of hang gliding equipment that has ISSUES!

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34390
Tragedy at 2016 Quest Air Open

Davis Straub - 2016/05/28 15:39:13 UTC

They can pull your teeth out.

They can pull your teeth out.

25-32016
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5548/14306846174_185f09082e_o.png


http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5530/14120804830_2aabd74d25_o.png
09-10817

...which is one of the reasons that they are not widely used, except in Russia.

http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident2.jpg
http://ozreport.com/pub/images/fingerlakesaccident3.jpg


- Yeah. In Russia they don't have issues and can't pull your teeth out.

How 'bout Davis Links - motherfucker?

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg


Any issues with the magic fishing line you total douchebags mandated everyone fly with for decades?

- Yeah one of the reasons they are not widely used, except in Russia. One of the other reasons certainly isn't because u$hPa and the Flight Park Mafia don't want people experiencing flying with safe equipment and understanding how easily damn near all past tow crashes could've been prevented.

wonderwind_flyer - 2016/05/27 14:30:31 UTC
NW Michigan

JohnC,
Thank you for sharing your reliable design.

Yes. A wonderful Reliable Release design - in combination with an Infallible Weak Link. What more could one ask for.

Hands free activation of your concept, if possible, could be the next step.

Yeah, who says we can't build an even better fax machine if we really put our minds to it.

I am still trying to understand the issues and reliability factors of mouth release systems.

I wouldn't worry about trying to do that. Davis has said they have issues and that's good enough for me.

In dream land ... I would like to use my voice to activate a trigger instead of holding something with jaw muscles.

Get fucked.

Something like the Vocca Light:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_-WDVWF5AA
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_-WDVWF5AA[youtube]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_-WDVWF5AA
Vocca - Turn any simple light bulb into a voice activated one - Hands on by

Roy Glaser

don't buy vocca light.
i bought it and its crap, hardly connect to the app, if ever, dosen't turn on and off as it should.
sometimes it turned on by the sound of the tv, and sometimes i could say go vocca light 7-8 times till it actually worked.

i owned 3 vocca light pro which i returned to the company after a very very long fight.

In dream land I would like to see you using your voice to activate a trigger too.

JohnC - 2016/05/27 16:57:47 UTC

Ah indeed. And these days creating a voice activated electromechanical function is quite simple. But it is not at all simple to do as a Safety Function. With each layer of functionality comes complexity, which brings failure modes, which need mitigation, which itself adds complexity...

Tell me about the failure modes of my Rube Goldberg systems and Tost sailplane releases - asshole.

Hence me ending up with the KISS approach of "just cut the bl***y string".

Hence you ending up with the KISS approach of just:
- letting go of the basetube with your left hand while continuing to fight the lockout with your right
- easily finding the handle mounted on the harness
- swiping with your thumb, flat of your hand, or wrist
- "cutting the bl***y string"
- then if your stupidly long and thin bridle welds itself to the tow ring which it's highly likely to do in a lockout scenario:
-- putting your left hand back on the basetube to take over control from your right hand
-- letting go of the basetube with your right hand while continuing to fight the lockout with your left
-- trying to:
--- find the piece a shit stub of a barrel on your bent pin placebo backup
--- get it pried open under tension that was already going through the ceiling when the weak link end of your bridle welded itself to the tow ring

And there's no point in continuing the description of this KISS emergency procedure cause I can one hundred percent guarantee you that WHEN that bridle wraps, either because you actuated your link cutter which you very probably won't be able to or your Davis Link blew at the Mike Haas stage of he lockout, you will become a dope on a rope, knowing you're gonna die and trying to fly the glider as best as a possible to extend your life expectancy as many seconds as possible - exactly like all other dopes on ropes in similar situations always do.

So KISS my ass, self-delusional shithead. People with functional brains use moderately complex engineering to keep the required physical responses as simple as possible. Complicate your basetube with a good pair of wheels or skids and you don't hafta do a bunch of stupid dangerous bullshit to get the glider safely stopped in the LZ. Complicate your wheels with locking pins you can safely plant and control your glider on a turbulent launch ramp.

An additional complicating factor is that we don't really have fail safe state. I.e., in some phases of flight, failure to remain attached is also hazardous.

Bull fucking shit.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01

Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.

It's more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.

Failure to remain attached is a mere INCONVENIENCE.

http://ozreport.com/5.126
Flytec Dragonfly

Steve Kroop, Russell Brown, Bob Lane, Jim Prahl, Campbell Bowen - 2001/07/15

It was mentioned that pilots have been injured as a result of sudden line release. My self, as well as the 4 other experienced tug pilots watching over my shoulder as I type this, are unaware of anyone who has gotten into trouble as a result of a sudden line release. In fact, a sudden line release would only alleviate any problems a tow pilot may be experiencing. Incidents of tug pilots incorrectly chopping power should not be confused with a sudden line release.

It's simply outside the realm of Newtonian physics for anything bad to happen in the course of a guaranteed fifteen second grace period to any hang glider under any circumstances as a consequence of the instantaneous loss of several hundred pounds of thrust. Would the weak link be the focal point of our safe towing system were that be otherwise? You just don't wanna be inconvenienced.

Not quite as bad as failure to release perhaps, but still significant.

Yeah...

Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"A bad flyer won't hurt a pin man but a bad pin man can kill a flyer." - Bill Bennett
"Never take your hands off the bar." - Tom Peghiny
"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson

A whipstall death as a consequence of a rope break or premature release is ALWAYS much less severe than any other flavor of towing death.

And with any mechanism we choose use, there is the oft ignored "human in the loop". Like much in aviation, aerotow can at times require extreme concentration (for me at least).

But, of course, it will ALWAYS be SURVIVABLE. No matter what it is you get hit by you can come out smelling like a rose as long as your concentration is extreme enough. Mother Nature and Sir Isaac have the utmost respect for extreme concentration.

When workload is already high, it can take an apparently small addition - like an unfamiliar action of mouth of voice - to create a work overload situation.

But you'll always be just fine taking a hand off for a second or two while you're otherwise engaged in exerting a couple zillion pounds of lockout resistance torque - 'specially...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=48425
Oregon flying on the edge

Davis Straub - 2016/07/12 19:25:33 UTC

I'm thinking that the pilot made a mistake, letting go of the bar with one hand. and the pitch became far too great far too fast.
This comes from what Russell told me, what April told me and what the first responders told Belinda.

...while flying pro toad.

When this happens, decision making can stall and from a remote perspective, people can appear to act, or fail to act, in an utterly irrational way.

Like trying to fly the fucking glider instead of making the easy reach to a release that stinks on ice.

(Voice control is on my list - but only for my navigation device. And I'm not going to get round to that before winter!)

Why not? You've surely taken your release system beyond any reasonable expectation. What else do you have on your plate? Testing to find the optimal bend for a barrel release pin?

2016/05/27 17:20:58 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Don Arsenault

Get fucked.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34401
A release for aerotow

Geoffrey Chaney - 2016/05/27 18:02:27 UTC
Tarpon Springs

release

I use the LMFP loop release for the very reason that I do not have to take my hand off the bar. I know it has its own issues...

Like the facts that it's "engineered" to look like what glider drivers expect a release to look like and doesn't work.

...but it makes me feel more prepared at all times...

As opposed to actually BEING fully prepared at all times.

...and I have never had a problem.

And have pointedly ignored all the reports from all the people who HAVE and don't really give a flying fuck about throwing away a good percentage of your glider performance.

Davis Straub - 2016/05/28 15:33:13 UTC

Spoke with Oleg Bondarchuk today. He said he used a very similar system when he worked with Gérard Thévenot at La Mouette. He now uses the standardized barrel release with a bridle.

Really hard to beat standardized barrel releases with bridles - like the setup that Jeff had been killed instantly on at the Quest Air Open several hours before Oleg was...

http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7394/27205018655_892d8a0852_o.jpg


...smiling for the cameras with his second place award.

When first learning he used the Russian Mouth Release. Doesn't like them.

Fuck no...

<BS> - 2016/07/28 19:19:38 UTC

Exhaustive trial period complete.

They have issues. (Anybody know what he paid to get those teeth replaced?)

Red Howard - 2016/05/29 17:12:10 UTC

A release for aerotow - mouth guard variety

I do not tow, so I have not had much to say here.

That's OK, Red. I have no doubt whatsoever that you'll be making up for the deficiency now.

Since others have mentioned a mouth release, and in particular using a mouth guard as the trigger, I would say that I agree with that idea.

Good enough for me. Let's do it.

I think that any mouth release should be made from a mouth guard, similar to what boxers (and other impact sports) use. This gadget is designed to preserve your teeth, rather than potentially breaking them for you, in any accident.

The actuator isn't gonna be in your teeth in a crash. And there's almost no chance that you're gonna crash anyway.

It seems like a mouth guard would also be far more comfortable for the teeth and jaw, on a long tow ride.

So is the strategy that Steve Kinsley developed and I implemented with a couple of my designs. Just have the trigger in your teeth to get you through the kill zone then go into easy reach mode for the long ride part.

All IMHO, of course.

Yeah thanks. Hard to imagine where we'd be now without all of your opinions.

Davis Straub - 2016/05/29 20:59:39 UTC

Steph Curry.

Right. I forgot. They can pull your teeth out.

Paul Edwards - 2016/05/30 22:15:21 UTC

What about a system just like this one except the release handle is on a line with a loop that stays in your hand during the entire tow.

What about a release just like this one:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8318603266/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8306300488/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8306152861


dickhead?

The activation technique under normal circumstances would be to let go of the bar and give it a pull.

03-1304
http://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2938/13700558193_0e0946218e_o.png


You don't HAFTA let go. You can slide your hand a couple inches inboard while holding back-pressure and that's always the biggie in a lockout.

When taking the hands off the bar is not desireable it could be activated by going upright in the harness pulling the body away from the release instead of the release away from the body.

Keep those great ideas rollin in, Paul...



We're totally counting on ya.

Make sense?

Perfectly.

I haven't tried pro-tow...

Give it a shot. I have no doubt whatsoever that you have developed the requisite skill.

...so I'm not really certain how much play the torso needs relative to the bar.... just brainstorming.

Asshole.

Dead nine days after Jeff was and before the end of the month, currently gathering dust halfway down Page 5 with Three Thumbs Up. Nothing EVER changes...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=12403
weak link table

ian9toes - 2009/06/14 15:18:37 UTC

I strongly disagree with banning the one guy who has the most knowledge about safety issues involving what I believe is the most dangerous part of our sport. I hear someone dies every year from towing. I hope SG bites his tongue in the interest of public safety.

For the better anyway.