That's just great, Davis! So now, in order to terminate the tow in an emergency situation, someone dumb enough to go up on that crap has to pry that bent pin barrel "release" open AND then go hunting for the lanyard on the three string release.
I think that you need to offer an apology for that bullshit, NMERider.2013/07/11 13:47:16 UTC - 3 thumbs up - NMERider
2013/07/11 12:40:02 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Paul Hurless
2013/07/11 04:10:08 UTC - Sink This! -- michael170
Yeah Steve, I am. I recognize a hang glider for what it is and what the limitations and tradeoffs are and that ALL fixed wing aircraft have limitations and tradeoffs.Steve Corbin - 2016/08/21 02:06:52 UTC
Good start, Steve. Always a pleasure to read stuff by authors who've really done their homework and really care about getting things right.I posted this on page 15 of the Incident Reports topic of the Los Trinos accident:
Hopefully all the ones who:"How many pilots have to die as a result of The Lockout?
Thank Gawd we have a sane person like you who doesn't tow defining insanity for tow pilots.It's insane to keep insisting that a purely weight-shift controlled aircraft can be towed safely.
You mean like?:The only aircraft that should be considered acceptable for towing are those that have demonstrated the ability to recover from any attitude while being towed.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846It simply amazes me that every time we have a towing accident the conversation always ends up focused on releasing....
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 04:55:25 UTC
It always amazes to hear know it all pilots arguing with the professional pilots.
You mean from the people who ACTUALLY TOW and develop and/or use superior systems that would've turned really spectacular fatals into nonevents?...or on the merits or deficits of any particular release mechanism.
Ditto for any time a driver has to slam on the brakes before arriving at his intended destination. Or an airliner gets diverted or stays on the ground because of crap conditions.Anytime a pilot being towed has to release before the normal time should be a red flag warning that we have a serious equipment deficiency that needs fixing.
Nah Steve...Nobody says a word about lockouts, or our susceptibility to getting locked out while flying a purely weight-shift controlled aircraft.
We're all fucking morons with no fundamental understanding of the physics and mechanics of what we've been doing since the early Eighties.ian9toes - 2009/06/14 15:18:37 UTC
I strongly disagree with banning the one guy who has the most knowledge about safety issues involving what I believe is the most dangerous part of our sport. I hear someone dies every year from towing. I hope SG bites his tongue in the interest of public safety.
I know fer sure that YOU are anyway. Always a major force in the discussions serving as a nucleus around which the people who really have their shit together can unite and effect really positive changes - like putting fins and ailerons on our kites.We aren't trying hard enough.
If we were that much into convenience then how come we used the standard aerotow weak link to increase the safety of the towing operation for as many decades as we did?We're just like the Pg crowd, trading safety and performance for convenience.
Get fucked, asshole. They can't fix their problem. In hang gliding the culture won't permit anybody to implement the fixes they've already developed. (Read your stupid post, ferchrisake.)The form may be different but the content is the same.
Ever meet a hang glider jockey who WASN'T?Yeah, I'm just a cranky old curmudgeon. But I'm right."
Oh. You got my Jack Show posting privileges restored? Thanks bigtime.As expected, many are chiming in with their own two cents worth. Come one, Come all, you're invited to make your inputs, if you can think of some.
You've already introduced yourself much more than adequately in this post already.First I'll introduce myself...
Puts you in a league with Paul Hurless - repairing and replacing parts other people have designed and built. What more could we possibly ask for. (Are you sure you can't invent an aerotow release system vastly superior than anything the planet has ever seen then not describe it to us the way Paul didn't?)...and provide some info about my flying, and my attitude about flying, which has been shaped by my experiences and the experiences of others, some of which I was personal witness to.
I was almost finished with my Private Pilot course in the spring of 1976. I tried out a Hg, bought it, and never went back to airplanes.
After 40 years of Hg I've decided to open up and speak out concerning some issues. You may dismiss me as a cranky old curmudgeon, but hopefully you'll consider my logic before putting me on your Ignore List.
I started my aeronautical adventure as a small child with a dime glider. I've designed and built and (tried to) fly many model gliders and airplanes.
While it's true that I'm poorly educated, I have eagerly read a lot about aeronautics ever since I broke that dime glider. I did eventually go to school and got an Airframe & Power plant Mechanics license...
Am I the only reader here who just heard absolutely nothing about experience in or familiarity with hang glider towing?...and I humbly accept your heartfelt thanks for not getting a job working on airplanes.
It's a fascinating hobby, and I mean the whole range of aeronautical pursuit is of great interest to me.
28-04208While Hg remains my favorite way to fly, I know that the experience of personal flight can be much better than it is. I am convinced that an aircraft utilizing only pure weight-shift control is excessively limited in the type of maneuvering it can perform...
Are you sure hang gliders are even capable of being towed? Have you ever actually seen it happen?...and this applies whether the launch is from a hillside or by towing.
Perish the thought.Please note my use of the term 'excessively'. This term can be subjective...
Just get Jack to ban anyone who doesn't agree with you. You'll be fine....and I think we'll see some comment from those that disagree with me concerning how much control is necessary for safe flying.
And let's certainly not delve into the ACTUAL *PHYSICS* of hang glider towing and get away from what the assholes who do it FEEL.Some will feel that their degree of control is adequate to the task, and some will agree that our degree of control is excessively limited.
- A highly qualified Two at a top notch operation on the very best of equipment. I've read the very detailed and professional report from US Hang Gliding, Inc. and concluded that this one happened solely because of the limitations of control of a purely weight-shift controlled aircraft. Everybody was doing everything right and there's no fuckin' way anyone could've survived that evening training flight without using a glider with vastly superior roll control response. And perhaps quicker inconvenience stall recovery properties as well.A few months ago there was another lock-out related death in our community in Florida.
...it doesn't matter how good or crappy its roll response is.Wills Wing / Blue Sky / Steve Wendt / Ryan Voight Productions - 2007/03
NEVER CUT THE POWER...
Reduce Gradually
Increase Gradually
One can only imagine the untold hundreds of hours you've spent hearing or reading about...Being tired of hearing or reading about these accidents and incidents...
...these accidents and incidents.Sam Kellner - 2012/07/03 02:25:58 UTC
No, you don't get an accident report.
A forum you're permitted to mention on The Jack Show?...I spoke up on a forum....
A someone else you're permitted to mention on The Jack Show?....where someone else...
A video you're permitted to post on The Jack Show?...had posted a video...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PY-6hVRmC1U...that gave a demonstration of what truly effective control is all about.
That video was shot from cameras mounted on an aerobatic sailplane, which was being aero-towed behind a Piper Pawnee (I think).The video from the sailplane showed the glider pilot performing precision axial rolls behind the tug.
...could do a barrel roll on aerotow. We just don't have the roll control authority to make it happen. Or stop it from happening. I always get confused in these discussions.Davis Straub - 2005/10/15 05:50:52 UTC
In the pre-Worlds in Forbes, NSW, Australia in the late nineties, those of us flying the Icaro 2000 Laminars got them just before the meet began after we has been in the country for a while. I had been flying a Moyes Extra Light, king posted glider.
On the first day towing the Laminar I believe I had nine tows, but maybe it was only seven. During those terrible tows I had at least three barrel rolls.
WE who, motherfucker? Still haven't heard about you ever going up on one end of a string.So here we are being towed aloft in our Hg's...
How many degrees off his heading is......and if we get more than a few degrees off on our heading...
What the fuck do you mean about GETTING a few degrees off OUR bank angle?...or bank angle...
Big fuckin'......we get "locked-out" and have to terminate our tow...
...which is usually a minor aggravation...
Suck my dick, Steve. This guy:Dennis Pagen - 2005/01
I pulled in all the way, but could see that I wasn't going to come down unless something changed. I hung on and resisted the tendency to roll to the side with as strong a roll input as I could, given that the bar was at my knees. I didn't want to release, because I was so close to the ground and I knew that the glider would be in a compromised attitude. In addition, there were hangars and trees on the left, which is the way the glider was tending. By the time we gained about 60 feet I could no longer hold the glider centered--I was probably at a 20-degree bank--so I quickly released before the lockout to the side progressed. The glider instantly whipped to the side in a wingover maneuver.
Which we already know it WILL......but if the release decides it's gonna "lock-out" also...
...many years before the incident but the important thing is we're using something with an extremely long and ever lengthening track record.Bart Weghorst - 2011/02/25 19:06:26 UTC
But I've had it once where the pin had bent inside the barrel from excessive tow force. My weaklink was still intact. The tug pilot's weaklink broke so I had the rope. I had to use two hands to get the pin out of the barrel.
No stress because I was high.
- Just don't be at a low altitude then. Problem solved. (Don't see anything in the SOPs about running weak link inconvenience drills at low altitude, do ya?)...then things can get pretty hairy, most especially so if we're at a low altitude.
But as long as our release doesn't lock out after we've made the easy reach to it we'll be fine.In fact, this scenario is a potentially very deadly one.
Notice his HEADING stays nicely aligned with the tug's at all times, dickhead?The video from the sailplane showed the glider pilot performing precision axial rolls behind the tug. Lock-out? What's a "lock-out"?
Go back to your Bob Show cult, Steve.Now I ain't tryin' to say that we need that degree of control to safely operate a Hg.
But the distance between that guy and us, as measured in controllability, is a vast one, like from here to the moon.
And we'll be able to fly the glider with ONE hand just fine. So we really don't hafta have any more stupid arguments about releases, load capacities, actuation systems.Without adding much weight or cost, our controllability of Hg's can be vastly improved.
Ease up on the fatality reporting a bit. We're trying to PROMOTE the sport, after all.But a decision was made back in the '70's that is crippling our sport today.
Despite our desperate pleas for ailerons.Our Hg manufacturers decided to stay with Pure Weight Shift, or PWS.
- And if you can't fly your bird in competition then why bother flying at all? Why even go on living? What would be the point?Competition rules were written that prohibited any control of the aircraft by means other than PWS.
Like maybe a built-in bulletproof release system that doesn't demand control compromise to blow like...Now I'm obviously referring to "Class 1" gliders, the least expensive and, most popular by far, Hg's.
I was conversing with some pilots that work for a Hg company. I was asking about the possibility of us ever getting some sort of control augmentation...
Yeah, so would a......and was informed that such a thing would disqualify the glider from competition.
...built-in bulletproof release system that doesn't demand control compromise to blow like all sailplanes have.Risk Mitigation Plan for the Quest Air Open
6. Equipment safety check in advance
Competitors must use appropriate aerotow bridles as determined by the Meet Director and Safety Director and their designated officials. Bridles must include secondary releases (as determined by the Safety Director). Bridles must be able to be connected to the tow line within two seconds. The only appropriate bridles can be found here:
http://OzReport.com/9.039#0
ProTow
and:
http://ozreport.com/9.041#2
More Protows
Pilots with inappropriate bridles may purchase appropriate bridles from the meet organizer.
Bullshit. Get an Atos.So a little later on I got to thinking about that, and got to wondering just how much that not being able to compete would affect my flying. Since I've never competed and don't plan to, I figure that this competition rule has only affected my flying experience in a negative way. Since no one wanted to crack that rule, no advancement in the area of Hg control has come along and given relief to my aching shoulders.
And they're the motherfuckers who control all the AT operations.And I wonder how many high-performance gliders produced ever actually get used in a contest where the rule applies. Five percent? Fifteen? Twenty? In the meanwhile, in 2016, the rest of us have to make a decision between controllability and performance. 'Cause we ain't allowed to have some simple device that is manually operated, we're only allowed PWS because a handful of us want to have a contest.
Thank gawd.There's something wrong with this picture.
To close...
I don't think there's anything left that could make hang glider culture less attractive than it is now. Tim Herr has already encoded everything imaginable in the SOPs....I simply suggest that better handling Hg's won't make us any less attractive than we are now.
Don't hold your breath.I daresay it would improve our image in some circles.
Yeah, throw a little popcorn smile in for your graphics. That'll make up for the total absence of videos, photos illustrating this critical lack of roll control authority that's killing all of our great tow pilots. You haven't even cited a crash report with results of any level of seriousness to support your position because their essentially nonexistent. Hang gliding culture as it is totally confident that it has control authority to squander on tow. And it squanders it with its foot launching of students, pro toad bridles, easily reachable releases, and infallible long track record weak Links. And on tow and free flight launch pilots alike are good coming in with their hands at shoulder or ear height where they can't control the glider. And if anything bad results it's 'cause they got hit by an invisible dust devil.
Oh look, a volunteer to help reinvent hang gliders already. I think I'll start holding my breath now.2016/08/29 06:15:47 UTC - 3 thumbs up - flyzguy
So what's wrong with your...Dave Pendzick - 2016/08/21 02:40:05 UTC
Maybe there needs to be a better emergency release system, perhaps something like the Automatic Activation Device AAD utilized in skydiving.
Good idea. I can handle hitting the ground at 70mph in my sleep.For those not familiar, It will automatically sever the reserve closing loop when a jumper exceeds 80mph below 700' AGL.
And we OBVIOUSLY have ten times the talent we need in hang gliding to develop something like that.It has saved many many lives.
Oh good. A new spelling of "carabiner" - capitalized in the middle of a sentence.Maybe if such a device were designed & built into the Carabiner...
Yeah, we couldn't just do anything like:...which connects pilot to the tow rope & could be activated via a bite switch the pilot could have in his mouth.
Yeah Dave. Let's look at your first two aerotows...I do not feel that the glider is somehow not efficient in design & needs radical design changes as tens of thousands of tows have happened without incident.
- Shouldn't a release system be considered part of the aircraft and, if so, how come you're proposing a bite controlled actuation system?Pilots are the problem & not the aircraft.
So only in your opinion Steve Wendt / Wills Wing...I do feel towing is an advanced skill & should not be utilized in training students, but this is only my opinion.
It always is. Following every reasonably well publicized towing fatality. Always all these great ideas, ignoring of all the existing and flying solutions, and nothing ever changing - for the better anyway.Interesting topic.
...release episode.Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC
When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less), but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it. The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.
Anyhow, the tandem can indeed perform big wingovers, as I demonstrated when I finally got separated from the tug.
Davis Straub - 2016/08/21 02:43:07 UTC
Yes.
I don't believe Quest and u$hPa do either. Can't find anything either of them have made available to indicate that anything out of the ordinary happened there on the afternoon of 2016/05/21.Davis Straub - 2016/08/21 02:45:19 UTC
I don't believe that Mr. dayhead knows what caused the incident at the Quest Air Open.
With Tim Herr running our sport for us he should definitely be expected not to.Nor should he be expected to.
Oh yeah. Let's go to their website and see if there have been any updates on that one...Tom Galvin - 2016/08/21 03:04:41 UTC
I think he was referring to the H2 on the winch.
I don't know about any accidents in Florida - or anywhere else.Davis Straub - 2016/08/21 03:22:43 UTC
Thanks. That goes for the other accident in Florida also.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052Janica Lee - 2016/08/21 11:19:00 UTCHow?Steve Corbin - 2016/08/21 02:06:52 UTC
Without adding much weight or cost, our controllability of Hg's can be vastly improved.
Brad Gryder - 2013/02/21 23:25:31 UTC
There's also a way to swing your body way outside the control frame so it stays up there while you reach out with one hand and release. Come on - do some pushups this winter.
(Wondering if you're referring to the Fledge.)
Just use a really safe weak link. You'll be fine.Matt Pruett - 2016/08/21 14:00:29 UTC
Minneapolis
Any ultralight fixed wing aircraft regardless of control system can be overpowered by conditions. Many pilots of fixed wing powered ultralights don't fly them mid day because of that risk. So just adding atos like controls to a flexwing won't really circumvent the issue. Excessive roll sensitivity can also be a safety issue.
That's OK, entelin. Hang glider people love nothing as much as engineering challenges.Birds can fly in ripping thermals, turbulence, and ratty air safely because they can continuously adjust the lifting capabilities of their wings by tucking them in. One wing starts lifting you more than the other? Just bring it in a bit.
However building such capabilities into a hangglider, and doing so in a way that doesn't compromise performance, while still being intuitive to the pilot, is no small engineering challenge.
Yeah. Then the manufacturers could keep not building quality release systems into their planes and selling them through their dealers in Florida, Texas, Ohio, Michigan, Indiana, Illinois, Wisconsin, Minnesota with the advisory that they're not designed or intended to be towed.With materials that are vastly stronger and lighter than what we have now some great things could be accomplished.
And how very few people we crash and kill on them.Absent that I suspect any such system would add significant weight. It's actually quite remarkable how well hanggliders do work.
And...Steve Corbin - 2016/08/21 15:49:38 UTC
You're right about that.
It seems that many if not most, of the pilots are relatively satisfied with the current tech.
Until Post 145 at 2016/08/31 06:16:21 UTC at which point it will start drifting down towards the bottom of the page with nothing of any actual substance resulting.But there are enough pilots seeing what I see to keep this conversation going.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846My Opinion: We berate the Pg crowd for trading safety for convenience...
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 10:15:12 UTC
Weaklinks are there to improve the safety of the towing operation, as I've stated before.
Any time someone starts in on this "sole purpose" bullshit, it's cuz they're arguing for stronger weaklinks cuz they're breaking them and are irritated by the inconvenience. I've heard it a million times and it's a load of shit. After they've formed their opinion, then they go in search of arguments that support their opinion.
But please don't bother citing and discussing any actual incidents from those environments either.while we do the same thing.
Poor roll authority has done at least as much damage on the hillsides as it has in towing.
You mean it can't work light thermals as well as a Sport 2?Yes, even an F-16 has limitations.
And we can start holding our breath now while you progress in something of actual substance.That doesn't mean no effort should be made to expand the limits.
The fact that lockouts exist is a byproduct of the fact that hang gliders are weightshift controlled and they MUST be towed with the force routed through the pilot / control system. If you don't like that then get into something in which you sit in a cockpit and use a stick and rudders to make it go where you want it to. If you wanna do something to help with hang gliders start by recognizing that TWO hands and a good bit of muscle are needed to safely control them.The fact that lock-outs exist proves that Hg's are deficient in the controllability context.
Name the ones in which pilot error ISN'T the sole cause of the crash. (And recognize that the douchebag on the front of the line is sharing in the piloting of the glider.)We have too many accidents, and while pilot error can be blamed a lot of the time, it doesn't mean that the gliders are Ok.
So make sure not to discuss the relevant issues in ANY of them. Also any of the tons of consequences-free incidents at altitude for which we have excellent and indisputable video documentation.It's correct that I don't know what caused all the towing accidents.
Ya think he or she might have had better control of his or her glider if he or she would've been able to blow his or her release with both of his or her hands continuously on the CONTROL bar - asshole?I'd like to know if any of them could have been avoided had the pilot had better control of his or her glider.
I wonder if that could be used in conjunction with a LeverLink. (Funny we haven't heard anything from Jeff Roberson and no one's referenced his great revolutionary idea in this discussion, dontchya think?)entelin mentioned that excessively easy control can cause problems as well. This needs to be dealt with. In the late '70's Wills Wing Ravens were so easy to control that a restriction line was installed on trainers to limit billow shift.
Good luck.zamuro - 2016/08/21 17:17:43 UTC
New York
I am OK with current flex wings but I would welcome an effort to achieve HG performance safety with PG convenience.
STUDENT. The tandem instructor's eleven-year-old STUDENT. It's illegal to take PASSENGERS up on tandem flights. We don't have an exemption for that. The tandem exemption was granted to enhance the safety of our training programs.NMERider - 2016/08/21 18:07:45 UTCThat's patently absurd. Have you ever read the article, Lockouts - Taming The Beast?Steve Corbin - 2016/08/21 15:49:38 UTC
The fact that lock-outs exist proves that Hg's are deficient in the controllability context.
http://www.birrendesign.com/towing_LO.html
Have you read any of the extensive studies on single-line tethered kite stability?
http://www.google.com/search?q=single-line+tethered+kite+stability
The dynamics are extremely complex.
The facts that at least four pilots and one passenger...
Let's look at the last eight fatal tow crashes (all of them US 'cept for the 2013/07/21 (France)):...have been killed and many more have been injured in both surface tow and aero tow lockout accidents in the past few years...
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230...strongly suggests to me that the current methodology for emergency release is where we should be focusing our attention.
Ryan Voight - 2009/11/03 05:24:31 UTC
It works best in a lockout situation... if you're banked away from the tug and have the bar back by your belly button... let it out. Glider will pitch up, break weaklink, and you fly away.
During a "normal" tow you could always turn away from the tug and push out to break the weaklink... but why would you?
Have you never pondered what you would do in a situation where you CAN'T LET GO to release? I'd purposefully break the weaklink, as described above. Instant hands free release
Problem solved. Funny Ryan Voight isn't saying anything about his instant hands free release and Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney has been silent as a fuckin' tomb on every consequential towing incident subsequent to Zack Marzec.Jim Rooney - 2009/11/03 06:16:56 UTC
God I love the ignore list
Tad loves to have things both ways.
First weaklinks are too weak, so we MUST use stronger ones. Not doing so is reckless and dangerous.
Then they're too strong.
I have no time for such circular logic.
I had it with that crap years ago.
As for being in a situation where you can't or don't want to let go, Ryan's got the right idea. They're called "weak" links for a reason. Overload that puppy and you bet your ass it's going to break.
You can tell me till you're blue in the face about situations where it theoretically won't let go or you can drone on and on about how "weaklinks only protect the glider" (which is BS btw)... and I can tell ya... I could give a crap, cuz just pitch out abruptly and that little piece of string doesn't have a chance in hell. Take your theory and shove it... I'm saving my a$$.
Yeah. Sure...I would start with a conversation with Peter Birren regarding his Link Knife emergency release.
Peter's your go-to guy for one-handed towing safety.Peter Birren - 2008/10/27 23:41:49 UTC
You trying to tell me the pilot had time to release? Not a prayer.
I know about this type of accident because it happened to me, breaking 4 ribs and my larynx... and I was aerotowing using a dolly. The sh*t happened so fast there was no room for thought much less action. But I wasn't dragged because the weaklink did its job and broke immediately on impact.
Imagine if you will, just coming off the cart and center punching a thermal which takes you instantly straight up while the tug is still on the ground. Know what happens? VERY high towline forces and an over-the-top lockout. You'll have both hands on the basetube pulling it well past your knees but the glider doesn't come down and still the weaklink doesn't break (.8G). So you pull whatever release you have but the one hand still on the basetube isn't enough to hold the nose down and you pop up and over into an unplanned semi-loop. Been there, done that... at maybe 200 feet agl.
Fuck that total douchebag and the horse he rode in on.In fact I have already begun the process with email correspondence but did not follow-up.
The statistics for lockout injury/fatality suggest to me that the sport has failed to adequately address the emergency release/disconnect issue.
42 fuckin' years ago.Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974
"A bad flyer won't hurt a pin man but a bad pin man can kill a flyer." - Bill Bennett
"Never take your hands off the bar." - Tom Peghiny
"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson
You and the rest of the Ridgely/CHGA cult can suck my dick, Cragin.Cragin Shelton - 2011/09/03 23:57:33 UTC
Nice Reference Citation
Do you REALLY think that there has been no progress in knowledge about the practical applied physics and engineering of hang gliding in 37 years? OR that an early, 3+ decade old, information book written by a non-pilot is a solid reference when you have multiple high experience current instructors involved in the discussion?
Why didn't you just...Having flown extensively in the past with winch-launched R/C sailplanes I can tell you that 3-axis gliders with extreme levels of control will still lockout. Recovery was initiated via backing off on the line tension and using elevator.
...cut the power? Into trying to fix bad things 'cause you don't wanna start over?Wills Wing / Blue Sky / Steve Wendt / Ryan Voight Productions - 2007/03
NEVER CUT THE POWER...
Reduce Gradually
Increase Gradually
OH! So controlling the power going to your plane is a PILOTing function and...The pilot controls the winch in R/C.
...influences the safety of the flight? I dunno... Isn't it a lot simpler just to cut the RC plane loose and blame it for whatever happens subsequently?Mark G. Forbes - 2015/04/01 03:46:29 UTC
Among ourselves, we agree (via the waiver) that we understand we're engaged in a risky sport that can cause serious injury or death. We each agree that we are personally and individually responsible for our own safety. If we have an accident and get hurt, we agree in advance that it is solely our own fault, no matter what the circumstances might be. We sign at the bottom saying that we fully understand these things, that we accept them, and that we know we are giving up the right to sue anybody if an accident happens.
Those are fundamental tenets of our sport. We are all individually responsible for ourselves and our safety. We need to see and avoid all other pilots, avoid crashing into people or property and use good judgment when flying. If someone doesn't agree with those principles, then they don't need to be involved in our sport.
...not to mention roll...Not so with hang gliders where pitch...
And even with a Rooney Link limiting the line tension (pressure) to a couple hundred pounds that can be a significant factor in which way the glider's going....control is a blend of weight shift and line tension vectoring.
The killer for towed hang gliders is all the total crap being deliberately spewed by the u$hPa/Industrial Complex.The killer for hang gliders IMHO has less to do with weight-shift control and more to do with inability to get off the line or at least slacken the line before entering an irrecoverable trajectory.
Fuck the Linknife and its Sainted Inventor. We don't need to cut strings to effortlessly dump five or six hundred pounds of towline tension. We need ENGINEERED ACTUATION SYSTEMS. And Peter is, has been, always will be a thousand miles south of useless in that department.I would start with a Link Knife on the glider and guillotine on the surface then go from there.
"We" the fuck who?Davis Straub - 2016/08/21 18:29:58 UTC
We received a bunch of Russian mouth releases.
How?Bruno was using one at the 2016 Big Spring Nationals.
Yeah, we know...Kinda hard on the mouth...
They can pull your teeth out. So how many teeth were pulled out? And speaking of pulling teeth out... How many do we hafta pull outta you Flight Park Mafia motherfuckers to get you to tell us what you're now mandating for AT weak links, what their breaking strengths are, and what problems they're supposed to be solving for us?Davis Straub - 2016/05/28 15:39:13 UTC
They can pull your teeth out.
But a good start on WHAT?...but a good start.
Sounds to me like a solution for a nonexistent problem. Or are you saying that they represent enough of a good start that Jeff Bohl would've only been HALF killed if these had fallen under the definition of an appropriate bridle at the Quest Air Open?Davis Straub - 2013/03/10 14:09:22 UTC
I've had no problem releasing my barrel release hundreds of times.
...why didn't the few people who are actually working on things come up with something as good or better before the 2016/05/21 fatal crash at Quest? Too tied up with the new Tad-O-Link testing program? And where can I go to find the comments on this thing from the few people who are actually working on things?Jim Rooney - 2013/03/03 19:37:19 UTC
It saddens me to know that the rantings of the fanatic fringe mask the few people who are actually working on things.
Now you're trying to replace it with something that doesn't work in reality and have made a good start. I'm really not liking the smell of any of this.Jim Rooney - 2013/02/12 18:00:27 UTC
Your second statement is why.
I just buried my friend and you want me to have a nice little discussion about pure speculation about his accident so that some dude that's got a pet project wants to push his theories?
Deltaman loves his mouth release.
BFD
I get tired as hell "refuting" all these mouth release and "strong link" arguments. Dig through the forums if you want that. I've been doing it for years but unfortunately the peddlers are religious in their beliefs so they find justification any way they can to "prove" their stuff. This is known as "Confirmation Bias"... seeking data to support your theory... it's back-asswards. Guess what? The shit doesn't work. If it did, we'd be using it everywhere. But it doesn't stand the test of reality.
AT isn't new. This stuff's been worked on and worked over for years and thousands upon thousands of tows. I love all these egomaniacs that jump up and decide that they're going to "fix" things, as if no one else has ever thought of this stuff?
But back to the root of my anger... speculation.
Much like confirmation bias, he's come here to shoehorn his pet little project into a discussion. Please take your snake oil and go elsewhere.
Tune him up?
Yeah, sorry... no.
2016/08/21 19:16:09 UTC - 3 thumbs up - NMERider
2016/08/22 18:19:31 UTC - 3 thumbs up - raquo
Brian Scharp - 2016/08/21 19:07:50 UTChttp://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34243NMERider - 2016/08/21 18:07:45 UTC
The killer for hang gliders IMHO has less to do with weight-shift control and more to do with inability to get off the line or at least slacken the line before entering an irrecoverable trajectory. I would start with a Link Knife on the glider and guillotine on the surface then go from there.
Fatal HG crash in Tres Pinos CA 4-3-2016Dan DeWeese - 2016/04/06 20:37:43 UTC
I thought a linkknife could be rigged so that if the AofA gets too high or too far offline, it cuts away the tow line and frees the glider.NMERider - 2016/04/06 21:11:00 UTC
I just fired off a letter to Peter Birren for his input on the utility of the Link Knife in this situation.Doug Hildreth - 1990/09
1990/07/05 - Eric Aasletten - 24 - Intermediate - 2-3 years - UP Axis - Hobbs, New Mexico - Platform tow - Fatal / Head
Reasonably proficient intermediate with over a year of platform tow experience was launching during tow meet. Homemade ATOL copy with winch on the front of the truck. Immediately after launch, the glider pitched up sharply with nose very high. Apparently the angle caused an "auto release" of the tow line from the pilot, who completed a hammerhead stall and dove into the ground. Observer felt that a dust devil, invisible on the runway, contributed to or caused the relatively radical nose-up attitude. Also of concern was the presumed auto release which, if it had not occurred, might have prevented the accident. Severe head injury with unsuccessful CPR.
The reporter was certain he saw a dust devil begin on the edge of the runway in a location that would support an invisible dust devil on the runway crossing the path of the truck and glider.
Recommendation of the reporter: If towing is done in gusty, turbulent or thermal conditions, a row of wind flags should be on each side of the runway at 50-75 foot intervals to warn of invisible turbulence. 1) Pilots should attach their release line in such a way that there will not be an auto release. 2) Weak links should be strong enough so that breaks right after launch will not occur.
Nah, those don't really exist in the universe of Hewett physics based hang glider towing.NMERider - 2016/08/21 19:29:49 UTC
Point taken however,
We're not talking about auto releases or pitch-up accidents.
Nobody. In the religion of Hewett based hang glider towing nothing bad that isn't the fault of a totally incompetent pilot can happen to a any glider once the power is cut. Anybody who says otherwise is just making...Furthermore even assuming there was no auto release accident who is to say there would not have been an incipient lock out with disastrous results?
...more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow and doesn't need to be involved in our sport.Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 19:49:30 UTC
It's more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.
Along with...Unseen turbulence OTOH is a very serious issue and is addressed in the one report. I applaud the use of flags and streamers.
...Bobby Fucking-Genius Bailey's efforts to improve the safety of aerotowing by using a better weaklink material.Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTC
At the 2008 Forbes Flatlands Greenspot for the first time was used as the standard weaklink material (thanks in large part to the efforts of Bobby Bailey). We applaud these efforts to improve the safety of aerotowing by using a better weaklink material.
Not in ANY of the eight most recent fatal tow crashes I listed. Not in any recent towing crash incident I can remember. And John Claytor with his pro toad placebo release and fuzzed out Greenspot at the ECC on 2014/06/02... Launched on an improvised runway in a howling crosswind, broke his neck, ruined his life, and THEN the Safety Committee called the day due to conditions.These can prevent tragedy.
And have such awesome release and weak link systems.Matt Christensen - 2016/08/21 20:44:18 UTC
Love my glider, it is an amazing aircraft! Blaming comps for the current development of hang gliders makes me laugh, but go ahead, because modern hang gliders are AWESOME!
Or fuckin' Dragonfly drivers who know everything about everything 'cause they fly gas guzzlers up and down all week long.I always find it interesting how it often seems those with the least, if any, towing experience; seem to be experts on the matter.
As long as there's nothing Rube Goldberg involved. That's why I don't find anything (I know that) Tad has developed worthy of any glance - let alone...I am all for advancement and evolution in design...
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3347Hugh McElrath - 2005/03/05 17:02:56 UTC
Thanks, Tad. I was too green to fully appreciate your system when you showed it to me a couple of years ago. Now I'm more interested. Do I have to fabricate this myself from parts or are you in business?
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=939Janni Papakrivos - 2008/06/30 15:35:44 UTC
Tad showed me the release system he installed in Hugh's glider. I was amazed at the quality and complexity of the system. Being able to tow and release without ever having to take your hands off the base tube is wonderful and much safer.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=12587Dan Tomlinson - 2005/08/31 00:33:01 UTC
Tad's post is difficult to read but I've seen his work. His release mechanism is elegant in its simplicity and effectiveness.
...comment.Patrick Halfhill - 2009/06/21 23:22:23 UTC
You and I met at the ECC a few years ago. We spent 45 minutes or more together going over your system. I saw it first hand. I was quite impressed with the quality of engineering and the time you spent on it.
Sure there will. A loop of 130 pound Greenspot on one end of a bridle increases the safety of the towing operation for anyone. Proven system that works. Downside......but there won't be a design that will completely offset human error, especially close to the ground.
Just a bit of inconvenience now and then.Davis Straub - 2013/03/06 18:29:05 UTC
I'm happy to have a relatively weak weaklink, and have never had a serious problem with the Greenspot 130, just an inconvenience now and then.
http://www.hanggliding.org/wiki/HG_ORG_Mission_StatementHaving said that, I would love to hear more from the great engineering minds that have it figured out here...
No posts or links about Bob K, Scott C Wise, Tad Eareckson and related people, or their material. ALL SUCH POSTS WILL BE IMMEDIATELY DELETED. These people are poison to this sport and are permanently banned from this site in every possible way imaginable.
Name somebody who flies anything in a different position.Robert Kesselring - 2016/08/22 00:20:19 UTC
I'm with Dayhead
When choosing a glider to fly, I had to accept a compromise...
Rubbish.I chose a Horizon 180. I'm in the middle of the weight range for it.
If I had chosen a 160, I would have had better roll authority, but a sink rate that would have made it all but impossible to soar.
So we can put you down as being totally cool with easily reachable releases, pro toad bridles, and whatever weak link Davis orders us to use?If I'd gone for a big wing like a Falcon 225, I would have had an excellent sink rate, but a glider that was difficult to control in all but the mildest conditions.
If somebody made a no-compromise wing with the sink rate of a big wing and the responsive handling of a little wing, I'd be on the wait list to get one, and I suspect it would be a long, long list.
(anybody listening? WillsWing? Northwing?)
Ya think?Matt Pruett - 2016/08/22 01:50:38 UTCI got one also, I have not tried it yet, but I plan to this fall. I have a strong suspicion that a mouth release could save lives.Davis Straub - 2016/08/21 18:29:58 UTC
We received a bunch of Russian mouth releases.
And you're forced to be forced to make that unfortunate choice by...Trading glider control to actuate a release is really an unfortunate choice that other methods to some degree force you to make.
...the Davis camp shits that hijacked the sport from competent and responsible pilots.Jim Rooney - 2010/12/16 18:47:05 UTC
A few years ago, I started refusing to tow people with home made gear.
I like the idea of improving gear, but the lack of appreciation for the world they were stepping into didn't sit with me.
For example... flying with the new gear in mid day conditions?
Are you kidding me????
Approach it for what it is... completely untested and very experimental gear which will likely fail in new and unforseen ways as it tries it's damndest to kill you... and then we can talk.
Good. We can sure use assholes like you well clear of the gene pool.Almost all of my flights have been aerotow. I use a Linknife at the apex of a v-bridle attached to a weak dog leash which keeps the actuation line taunt regardless of how I move. The force required to actuate it is very small and consistent, a little tug and your off, no chance for wrapping, etc. Though it doesn't solve the problem of having to move a hand to pull it, which I think is the larger issue.NMERider - 2016/08/21 18:07:45 UTC
The killer for hang gliders IMHO has less to do with weight-shift control and more to do with inability to get off the line or at least slacken the line before entering an irrecoverable trajectory. I would start with a Link Knife on the glider and guillotines on the surface then go from there.
Release systems don't need to and shouldn't be compromises. Tost sailplane release - fuckin' bulletproof. No decades long discussions about them.All aircraft are a compromise. Control surfaces cost weight. I would be curious though to hear if atos pilots find that they can still be overpowered in a thermal like flexwings can.Robert Kesselring - 2016/08/22 00:20:19 UTC
When choosing a glider to fly, I had to accept a compromise...
NMERider - 2016/08/22 03:36:13 UTC
Have you considered whether the larger issue may have more to do with executing the release before you find yourself in an unrecoverable trajectory with the ground?
Bill Bryden - 2000/02
Dennis Pagen informed me several years ago about an aerotow lockout that he experienced. One moment he was correcting a bit of alignment with the tug and the next moment he was nearly upside down. He was stunned at the rapidity. I have heard similar stories from two other aerotow pilots.
Dennis Pagen - 2005/01
I pulled in all the way, but could see that I wasn't going to come down unless something changed. I hung on and resisted the tendency to roll to the side with as strong a roll input as I could, given that the bar was at my knees. I didn't want to release, because I was so close to the ground and I knew that the glider would be in a compromised attitude. In addition, there were hangars and trees on the left, which is the way the glider was tending. By the time we gained about 60 feet I could no longer hold the glider centered--I was probably at a 20-degree bank--so I quickly released before the lockout to the side progressed. The glider instantly whipped to the side in a wingover maneuver.
Total rot. This is the Industry line to put all the blame on...If a lockout seems incipient (and you know it's only going to get worse when you release one hand) isn't there a limited window of time in which you must commit to cutting the line?
...the dead pilot and whitewash the shoddy junk they've sent their latest victim up on.Joe Gregor - 2004/09
There is no evidence that the pilot made an attempt to release from tow prior to the weak link break, the gate was found closed on the Wallaby-style tow release.
...a properly sized weak link will break before our glider handling can be compromised but...Quest Air Hang Gliding
Weak Link
The strength of the weak link is crucial to a safe tow. It should be weak enough so that it will break before the pressure of the towline reaches a level that compromises the handling of the glider but strong enough so that it doesn't break every time you fly into a bit of rough air. A good rule of thumb for the optimum strength is one G, or in other words, equal to the total wing load of the glider. Most flight parks use 130 lb. braided Dacron line, so that one loop (which is the equivalent to two strands) is about 260 lb. strong - about the average wing load of a single pilot on a typical glider. For tandems, either two loops (four strands) of the same line or one loop of a stronger line is usually used to compensate for nearly twice the wing loading. When attaching the weak link to the bridle, position the knot so that it's hidden from the main tension in the link and excluded altogether from the equation.
...it actually won't before we get killed so release when we're straight and level - just like...IMPORTANT - It should never be assumed that the weak link will break in a lockout.
ALWAYS RELEASE THE TOWLINE before there is a problem.
The motherfucker doesn't have any.I'd be interested in your thoughts...
From whom? The flight parks who are telling their students not to use weak links on both ends of the bridle because that doubles the towline tension needed to blow tow?...and training...
Furthermore... PEOPLE make MISTAKES. Even the people who aren't towed up by these shit operations before having a fucking clue how to roll control a glider make mistakes that require BOTH no further control compromise AND an immediate release. Jeff Bohl didn't necessarily deserve to die 'cause he reached for an unsecured camera right after takeoff. And even if he DID deserve to die he inconvenienced a lot of other pilots who'd come a long way to Quest and had wanted to fly another comp day. And there are probably a few people who witnessed the impact and had their enthusiasm for pursuing the sport dampened just a bit....in this regard.
None of them were the classic lockouts in which an actual pilot on tow has his roll control authority overwhelmed by a thermal blast to the point at which recovery on tow is possible. Steve Corbin's just assuming that's what's going on - without having made the slightest effort to understand what's actually going on - to use as ammunition in his campaign to get somebody else to revolutionize glider design.Davis Straub - 2016/08/22 04:50:15 UTC
I don't think that we know that any of the three towing incidents were lock outs.
Ex fuckin' zactly.NMERider - 2016/08/22 04:51:30 UTC
The fact that lock-outs exist does not prove that Hg's are deficient in the controllability context. It does suggest that there may be issues with the manner in which towing is conducted.
Try stalling a sailplane under winch tow and see how long before you hit the ground at 150mph. Sailplanes lock out if the manner in which the towing is conducted exceeds the limitations of the sailplane and/or conditions. The same holds true for hang gliders. They both have limitations and well, let's face it--we are all human and we make mistakes...
Rubbish....and sometimes those mistakes result in trying to operate outside of the limitations of our equipment and /or the conditions.
We can't.But to posit the notion that lock-outs prove anything exists other than lock-outs really is baloney. The existence of lock-outs should give us all pause to consider whether we can effectively prevent one from happening to each of us at any given point in time.
I always assume that I will. Same as I always assume I'm not hooked in as I'm about to commit on a launch ramp.In other words, there comes a time in which to ask one's self -- Am I likely to have a lock-out here?
Sure. Wait for the evening sled conditions.Maybe I'd be better off not towing right now?
You never really wanted to get up to cloudbase and play around for a few hours anyway.Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 19:39:17 UTC
Weak links break for all kinds of reasons.
Some obvious, some not.
The general consensus is the age old adage... "err on the side of caution".
The frustration of a weaklink break is just that, frustration.
And it can be very frustrating for sure. Especially on a good day, which they tend to be. It seems to be a Murphy favourite. You'll be in a long tug line on a stellar day just itching to fly. The stars are all lining up when *bam*, out of nowhere your trip to happy XC land goes up in a flash. Now you've got to hike it all the way back to the back of the line and wait as the "perfect" window drifts on by.
I get it.
It can be a pisser.
But the "other side"... the not cautions one... is not one of frustration, it's one of very real danger.
Better to be frustrated than in a hospital, or worse.
No exaggeration... this is the fire that the "other side" is made of. Best not to play with it.
No human can "HANDLE" a lockout. The definition of a lockout is a situation in which your control authority is overwhelmed and you're going in a direction not of your choosing with no possibility of recovering the tow. You can just make sure that you're equipped to REACT TO a lockout as effectively as possible....or Am I prepared to handle a lock-out?
If they could've been they would've been. But the manufacturers won't provide safe built in release systems like ALL sailplanes have because hang gliders aren't intended to be tow launched.Now I'm all for making flex-wing hang gliders more controllable if it can be done without adding greater complications and uncertainties.
'Specially when you're designing releases. You must never consider the complexity of the actions required to blow them. And when the pilot gets killed you can ALWAYS blame him for having tried to fix a bad thing because he didn't wanna start over and nobody will ever be able to prove you wrong. And then you can tell all your students and customers what an asshole the guy was.Sometimes, simpler is safer in the long run.
Yeah, he died on impact but we know what he was thinking 'cause some assholes told you. Reminds me a lot of Steve Wendt and Richard Bryant telling us what Holly Korzilius was thinking on the aerotow crash that wiped her memory of it.Doug Martens - 2016/08/22 05:53:52 UTC
Reseda, California
From what I understand the lockout in Florida by the Comp glider, the pilot knew he was locked out and rode it out thinking he could eventually overcome the condition. Possibly trying to avoid breaking the link and then having to tow up again wasting time.
Like:Greblo always says when you get away with a safety lapse over and over you begin to accept it as being a new norm.
What a load o' crap.An over confident pilot at a competition is his own business.
Yeah, I'll bet as a United Airline pilot he never gave issues like this much thought. But of course as an airline pilot he wasn't issued total crap equipment "designed" by total fucking morons.I always say the ground doesn't care what rating card you carry in your pocket.
Yeah. And they should also keep pissing all over simple beautifully engineered systems already developed and flown for years.Should comps require a complex technological release?.
Don't worry. Once she gets her flare timing perfected issues like that will be history.I saw a minor landing accident today at Sylmar with a female pilot with a nasty bruise but the soft grass made it less sever that it could have been.
And we have no fuckin' clue what really happened in the Zack Marzec incident... We just know that right afterwards...Davis Straub - 2016/08/22 06:01:22 UTC
I'm sorry to say that you would actually have a hard time knowing what happened in Florida. I was there in line one person behind him. Even I don't know for sure what happened.
...everybody and his dog suddenly and inexplicably became happy with Tad-O-Links.Jim Rooney - 2013/03/05 19:42:58 UTC
My god my head hurts.
Wow...
So you know what happened then?
OMG... thank you for your expert accident analysis. You better fly down to FL and let them know. I'm sure they'll be very thankful to have such a crack expert mind on the case analyzing an accident that you know nothing about. Far better data than the people that were actually there. In short... get fucked.
Again, tell me how all this nonsense is about "safety"?
So, a stronger weaklink allows you to achieve higher AOAs... but you see high AOAs coupled with a loss of power as *the* problem? So you want something that will allow you to achieve even higher AOAs?
Are you NUTS?
I'm tired of arguing with crazy.
As I said many times... there are those that listen with the intent of responding... you unfortunately are one.
You've done a great job of convincing me never to tow you.
Thank you for that.
Mission accomplished.
So why all this sudden interest in the Kaluzhin release?But the stories that I have heard from even better witnesses than I do not jibe at all with your comment.
But, hell, this is the internet, so fire away.
What's a pro toad tumble following a Rooney Link pop at 150 feet in a monster thermal usually (always?) the result of? Seems to be a real mystery within the AT community...Ryan Voight - 2016/08/22 06:15:59 UTCI agree this is an absurdly illogical conclusion. A lock-out is usually (always?) the result of inadequate lateral control. This could be from a lacking aircraft design capability... but could be just as easily from PILOT error or inadequacy.NMERider - 2016/08/22 04:51:30 UTC
The fact that lock-outs exist does not prove that Hg's are deficient in the controllability context. It does suggest that there may be issues with the manner in which towing is conducted.
Any thoughts?Wills Wing / Blue Sky / Steve Wendt / Ryan Voight Productions - 2007/03
NEVER CUT THE POWER...
Reduce Gradually
Increase Gradually
I actually aerotow, Ryan. And I've locked out, flying two point, TWICE - at altitude where they were total nonissues and nobody would know about them if I didn't post anything. And I was an ace dune pilot when you were in diapers so I know how to fly a hang glider. You get a powerful offset bullet thermal between you and the tug you WILL lock out.There are too many pilots (even in the tiny bubble of hang gliding) that tow too often WITHOUT ever locking-out, to say it's an aircraft issue (because then it would be an issue for everyone!)
Yeah Ryan. That's what's going on in your little world of glassy sled conditions - like the those in which your dad demonstrates PERFECT...Are pilots too casual about staying "on top of" the glider while towing?
Yeah Ryan. That's what's going on. People are aerotowing - which is roll unstable as hell and requires the constant input of minor corrections in anything but glassy sled conditions - who suddenly develop lackluster control skills to begin with.Are there large populations of hang glider pilots with lackluster control skills to begin with?
Why should you hafta actively fly the glider, Ryan? When you roll away from the tug the towline pulls you back under the high wing and weight-shifts it back level. Just like when you're running across the field in S-patterns without using your hands.Are tows occurring in conditions that are possible, if not likely or almost guaranteed, to require the pilot to actively fly the glider to prevent the dreaded lock-out?
Very few. 'Cause you tend not to have much in the way of fast and strong vertical air movement in the kill zone / below two hundred feet. Same reason really low saves are really rare. At five hundred feet I've almost always thrown in the towel and started approach mode.And... although they don't happen THAT often... what percentage of lock-outs result in accident/injury/death? Are there possibly details in those specific cases that matter?
Right. Dangerous low level thermal induced lockouts - lateral and vertical - are extremely rare so it's OK to fly with easily reachable bent pin releases, pro toad bridles, and standard aerotow weak link pitch and lockout protectors which inconvenience us every now and then.To say people die from lock outs so towing is dangerous, is to say that people die from hang gliding so all aviation is dangerous. Or people die from hyperventilation so breathing heavy is dangerous?
And FAIL to let Mother Nature know who's really boss when the shit hits the fan.I agree, compared to the world of flying "things" available in the 21st century, hang gliders have more limited control-ability. This comes as a trade off for hanging head-first below a wing and flying like superman with nothing but our own bodies to steer us around! Don't blame the aircraft if people CHOOSE to fly it, and FAIL to maneuver it adequately for what they are trying to do.
Explain Zack Marzec...I think it's (mostly) a people-make-poor-choices problem... and maybe some of a people-have-skill-shortcomings-and-don't-know-it-and-their-friends-say-nothing
- Yeah...But if you can make a hang glider that handles quicker and easier, without giving up the pure simplicity that is hang gliding... hell yea, no reason not to improve on what we have!
Right.Jim Rooney - 2010/12/16 18:47:05 UTC
Oh, I've heard the "everything we do is an experiment" line before.
The trouble is, it's not.
I've seen experimentation with towing gear more than anything else in HG.
I've not seen many go out and try to build their own sails for example. When someone does, they're very quickly "shown the light" by the community. Example... the guy that was building the PVC glider in California somewhere.
But for some reason, towing gear is exempt from this.
The difference is what we do has been done by thousands of people already. It's been tested... a lot.
What we do is free of the experimentation part.
It's still dangerous, but not at the level of building new gear is. Not even close.
