You are NEVER hooked in.

[<BS>]

Hadn't read your last post and was in the process of editing the following on shga only to not be able to post it 'cause the whole thread is gone except for the OP and now my added WTF. Here's the post I was editing.

It would be interesting to see the poster take the same harness and same model glider and recreate exactly how they got fooled into believing they were hooked in when they weren't. Instead what I see here is the wholesale disparagement of what many consider to the the single-most effective and applicable hook-in check ever devised in the history of the sport of hang gliding.

Yeah.

What I gather is his Moyes Matrix race harness somehow got draped over the rear wires...

I'll concede a remote possibility of the tail of a harness being draped over one wire, which would give a lopsided pitch to the back-plate pressure you described, but I'm having a hard time seeing a harness draped over both rear wires. That said, I can't imagine trying to lift my glider with my harness draped over one rear wire and then not notice it.

[Steve Davy]

It was gone. You posted in Frederick's duplicate thread, then the original reappeared.

[<BS>]

Thanks Steve, I went back and corrected it.

There is no fool proof way to prevent hook in failure...

In establishing solid operating procedures we're not trying to save every stupid incompetent total douchebag capable of picking up a glider and carrying it to launch.

[NMERider]

It's bad news having a backup hang loop the same color as the man hang loop and just enough longer so that it's possible to have the following:
The backup loop is made from stiff webbing and is poking through the main loop.
The pilot hooks his carabiner over the two strands of the backup loop which then anchors itself against the main loop.
The backup loop may have enough stiffness to not only support the weight of the harness but even survive either a hang check or a lift and tug, but will rapidly fail once airborne.

This is a real problem when the sewn area is positioned so that it is right up to the nadir of the loop. Essentially this creates a Pro Tow straight pin release where the doubled section of sewn webbing is the pin.

[Tad Eareckson]

Segueing from my quoted sentence above...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=12536
standard operating procedures

Tad Eareckson - 2009/06/19 03:31:10 UTC

How come hang glider pilots back up the webbing above the carabiner but not below and use curved pins for their barrel releases?

Helen McKerral - 2009/06/19 07:14:50 UTC

A very interesting point re backup. Any harness or chute manufacturer on the .org care to chime in?

Mike Meier - 2005/08/~18

Years ago we didn't even put backup hang loops on our gliders (there's no other component on your glider that is backed up, and there are plenty of other components that are more likely to fail, and where the failure would be just as serious), but for some reason the whole backup hang loop thing is a big psychological need for most pilots.

Jack Axaopoulos - 2009/06/19 12:18:13 UTC

Oh, and for the record, the reason *I* want a backup strap is not because I think my main is going to fail because its not strong enough or whatever, but because there could be a manufacturing defect. Secondly, a backup also comes into play when a pilot gets really lazy, never replaces his straps on an old harness, wears through his main, and doesnt catch it in time. I caught a worn through main on one pilots harness. It was one wang away from snapping. His backup would hopefully have saved him. So yes, backups still serve a purpose. Unlike critical parts of the glider itself, like the leading edges which cant realistically be backed up, you at least get the opportunity to backup your hang strap, which is a real wear point.

NMERider » 2017/03/30 02:18:54 UTC

It's bad news having a backup hang loop...

Just end that clip with a period and you've totally nailed it. Backup loops are stupid dangerous crap and the Wills Wing guys deserve to be stood up against walls for pandering to their idiot clientele.

Everybody has to be trained to do full harness and suspension preflight on the ramp rather than a final half second hook-in check because some dickhead like Phill shows up at launch with his carabiner dangling and his harness boot draped over a tail wire and somehow figures out to get a false positive on connection when he lifts his glider.

And we all gliders hafta ship with backup loops because of some totally fictional idiot had his imaginary life saved by Jack the Great when his six thousand pound suspension is worn down to its final four percent of intact webbing.

It was one wang away from snapping. His backup would hopefully have saved him.

Yes, his pristine backup would HOPEFULLY have saved him but ya never really know. About once every six months or so the backup gives way right after the main snaps and another one of our brethren dies doing what he loves. So let's hear it for Jack. He and he ALONE spotted the suspension worn through to standard aerotow weak link strength. And the piece o' shit pilot who's life he probably saved? Where was the public thanks and the explanation of how his main suspension got worn down to that degree?

Gawd how I DESPISE glider people. If they're not Jack, Davis, Rooney, Ryan caliber sociopaths themselves they're tolerating, enabling, supporting them.

[Steve Davy]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=35231
LZ windsock design details?

Don't bother with wind indicators, you'll know the wind direction AFTER you land or pound in.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.rmhpa.org/messageboard/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4258
HG accident in Vancouver

Tom Galvin - 2012/11/05 01:05 UTC

I step through and look at the biner before picking up the glider to ensure that my harness, chute and both straps are connected to it with a locked gate, except at the shore where I do not lock the gate. If conditions are not right, and I set the glider down, then I repeat it when I pick up again. Lift and tug can give a false positive if you are hooked in to something other than your hang strap, or in a situation like this...

I step through and look at the biner before picking up the glider to ensure that my harness, chute and both straps...

The one that has an actual function and the one installed by the manufacturer for the sole purpose of keeping its idiot customers happy.

...are connected to it with a locked gate, except at the shore where I do not lock the gate.

In other words - locking the gate has no actual beneficial function. In the entire history of hang gliding in which untold zillions of hours have been logged at coastal and lakeshore sites at which gates tend to be flown unlocked (due to the drowning issue) there have been ZERO related incidents, problems reported.

Compare/Contrast with:



Fuckin' dime a dozen. And if the main doesn't get it the backup:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17990
parachute bridle attachment


will. So somebody give me a sane explanation for the reason for using locking carabiners. They make it safer for flying over terra firma but not over water? Over water we're worried about the increased risk of drowning but not the least bit of plummeting several hundred feet to the surface?

If conditions are not right, and I set the glider down, then I repeat it when I pick up again. Lift and tug can give a false positive if you are hooked in to something other than your hang strap, or in a situation like this...

So you're saying that two minutes after you've set the glider down you're unable to remember whether or not you've checked to make sure you're not hooked in to something other than your hang strap or in a situation like:

? In the entire history of hang gliding has there ever been a single report of anyone having done a preflight shortly before stepping onto the ramp and launching hooked into something other than his hang strap or partialled?

And why stop there? Why not check some of the other lethal issues you might have forgotten at preflight in the setup area? Wires, basetube pins, missing nylocks? Why is it ONLY the suspension and connection issues - the ones that SHOULD BE *FRESHEST* in your memory and foremost in your list of priorities - that concern you?

And how come after you've launched you're one hundred percent positive that everything's one hundred percent solid? Your memory is total shit in the seconds, minute prior to launch but so fuckin' bulletproof from the moment you initiate your first step on that you NEVER feel any need whatsoever to (re)check ANYTHING?

You've been up for five minutes and you're a thousand feet over in smooth ridge lift. Why not check for one of those issues you cited? Call it a partial. You can climb up into the control frame and fix it and if it lets go before you've got things secured you're in excellent shape to get your chute out. But NOT ONE of you INSTRUCTOR motherfuckers has EVER suggested ANY such post-launch procedures/precautions.

And that is a smoking gun LOGICAL CONTRADICTION.

Can't do a lift and tug JUST PRIOR TO LAUNCH 'cause you might have omitted something critically important / committed something incredibly stupid that lift and tug won't catch and get a false sense of security. But once you've started moving on the ramp you're fuckin' GOLDEN until next weekend.

And DON'T EVEN *THINK" about telling me that you assholes don't teach post launch checks because they'd be...

Luen Miller - 1994/11

After a short flight the pilot carried his glider back up a slope to relaunch. The wind was "about ten miles per hour or so, blowing straight in." Just before launch he reached back to make sure his carabiner was locked. A "crosswind" blew through, his right wing lifted, and before he was able to react he was gusted sixty feet to the left side of launch into a pile of "nasty-looking rocks." He suffered a compound fracture (bone sticking out through the skin) of his upper right leg. "Rookie mistake cost me my job and my summer. I have a lot of medical bills and will be on crutches for about five months."

...too dangerous. This is another really valuable weapon we can use to gut these sonsabitches.

P.S. Hey Luen... If the launch situation was so critical that this asshole suffered these consequences as a result of him not being able to "react"...

Dennis Pagen - 2005/01

Thirdly, experienced pilots should be aware that towing only from the shoulders reduces the effective pull-in available to prevent an over-the-top lockout. Like many pilots, I prefer the freedom of towing from the shoulders, but I am aware that I must react quicker to pitch excursion. Sometimes reactions aren't quick enough and emergency procedures must be followed. It seems to me that we shouldn't be overly eager to encourage lower airtime pilots to adopt this more advanced method of aerotowing.

..."quickly" enough then just how advisable was it for him to be launching unassisted - whether or not he'd done his idiot check of his idiot carabiner locking mechanism?

[Tad Eareckson]

P.S...

Another point that needs to be made when we're dealing with these...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1167
The way it outa be

Steve Kinsley - 2005/10/04 14:04:25 UTC

One last attempt.

We have now rounded up all the usual suspects and promised renewed vigilance, nine page checklists, hang checks every six feet, etc. Bob Gillisse redux.

A hang check is part of preflighting your equipment. You do it in the setup area - not on the launch or the ramp. When you get in line you are hooked in and ready to go. No going down for a hang check cum hook-in check.

...Greblo/Galvin dickheads incapable of understanding...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13132
Unhooked Death Again - Change our Methods Now?

JBBenson - 2009/01/25 16:27:19 UTC

I get what Tad is saying, but it took some translation:
HANG CHECK is part of the preflight, to verify that all the harness lines etc. are straight.
HOOK-IN CHECK is to verify connection to the glider five seconds before takeoff.
They are separate actions, neither interchangeable nor meant to replace one another. They are not two ways to do the same thing.

...the functions of and differences between preflight and hook-in checks...

The assholes who are going off partialled or hooked into garbage aren't going off so because they aren't doing repeated preflight checks on ramps. They're going off so because:
- their preflight checks have been incompetent or nonexistent; AND (related)
- they've given zero consideration to the possibility of one of the common critical issues

NOBODY has EVER - for examples - THOUGHT about the issue of being partialled or connected to garbage and subsequently discovered on the ramp that he WAS partialled or connected to garbage by virtue of check. If one is clever enough to be considering such issues on the ramp one is way too clever to have committed such fuckups in the first place - and there are ZERO incidents to argue otherwise. In other words, THINKING about the issue IS the check - all that's necessary.

And, corollary, if you're so fucking stupid that you feel you NEED to check such items after moving onto the ramp you're way too stupid to be launching in any case - given the far more challenging intellectual demands of completing a safe flight.

"Uh-oh, I may just be hooked into the loop of binder's twine I tied around the keel to use for drying my socks." Don't check to see whether or not you're safely hooked into your suspension and proceed with your launch. If you think you're stupid enough to have done something like that then offer your glider and gear to the highest bidder on the spot, have somebody drive you home, find a more appropriate hobby.(Phill), something involving neither altitude nor movement.

09-20
http://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5315/29962431842_1b260f7a81_o.png


No lift and tugger has ever had the glider keep going up. If he's not hooked in just the thought of doing the check is gonna trigger the realization that he' not hooked in. It's more the mindset (the gun is always loaded) than the procedure. One does the lift and tug because:
- one is constantly appropriately terrified of the consequences of launching unhooked
- it:
-- provides constant feedback
-- is bulletproof
-- entails zero cost

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=35281
April Fools Day Got Me

Jack Barth - 2017/04/20 21:32:29 UTC

Fearing my spectators were going to abandon me I committed to launch.

Pretty scary thought just prior to launch.

I had a bad habit of using a jack rabbit start and when I felt the wing was flying the angle of attack would increase as I proned out. Many people had commented on this issue and I honestly tried to correct (unsuccessfully). Started my run down the launch in light wind. Felt the tug on the hang loop...

Better late than never. ('Course on that one you'd have probably been better off if you HADN'T been hooked in.)

[TheFjordflier]

Playing around again.
This topic is also important to me personally.
You understand by watching where I use to launch from.
The english captions may suck, but people should still get the message if they want to
And I also get to promote one of my country's most beautiful places

http://vimeo.com/219393561
You are NEVER hooked in!
TheFjordflier - 2017/05/29 16:37 UTC
Another saftey reminder. A topic that's very dare and importent to me. Makes my launches much easier.
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