landing

General discussion about the sport of hang gliding
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Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: landing

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31544
Flying after two broken arms
Majo Gularte - 2014/07/10 19:39:51 UTC
Guatemala

Hi guys!! I am very happy because after a difficult beginning when I broke both arms during scooter tow lessons in Guatemala two years ago, just two months ago I did my first aerotow solo, and I have over 45 flights now. Just yesterday I got clear to do my first mountain flight in Lookout Mountain,
Oh boy... :roll:
BUT, I've being landing on my wheels since I started solo...
*BUT* you've being landing on my wheels since I started solo? Why the hell would you wanna do otherwise?
...I know that is a problem on my head...
No. There's nothing wrong with your head. There's something terminally wrong with the assholes running/implementing this sport.
...because I related landing on my feet to my accident...
Great instincts! I was relating EXACTLY the same thing. Stay with that!
...and I'm always thinking that is too hard and that I can't do it...
Wanna hear what the manufacturer of the gliders your probably flying has to say on that issue?
Gil Dodgen - 1995/01

All of this reminds me of a comment Mike Meier made when he was learning to fly sailplanes. He mentioned how easy it was to land a sailplane (with spoilers for glide-path control and wheels), and then said, "If other aircraft were as difficult to land as hang gliders no one would fly them."
...I know that is OK landing on the wheels and I do it perfectly...
You mean like THIS?:

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...but I really want to let that trauma go and learn to land on my feet...
You mean like THIS?:

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...I've trying without success, so I really need help!!!
I did too for over a quarter century. If you get some help can you wire me so I can figure out what it was I was doing wrong?
...any recommendations to let my mental trauma go?
Yeah. DON'T LET YOUR MENTAL TRAUMA GO. You have all the right instincts and your trauma's giving you excellent reinforcement/feedback. Start learning to land on your feet and your chances of...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22176
Paragliding Collapses
Jim Rooney - 2011/06/12 13:57:58 UTC

Most common HG injury... spiral fracture of the humerus.
...breaking one of those arms again goes through the fuckin' ceiling. And I one hundred percent guarantee you that if/when that happens that additional trauma is gonna blow you out of the sport PERMANENTLY.

P.S. With what you've gone through already those motherfuckers at Lockout should be EXTRA stood up in front of a fuckin' wall and shot for even allowing you to THINK about those idiot goddam standup landings.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: landing

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31544
Flying after two broken arms
Jesse Yoder - 2014/07/10 19:55:21 UTC
Arlington, Virginia

After a bad landing where I flared too early and ballooned up to come down hard and break a down tube I had fear of flaring for a while...
Well, the important thing is that if you'd been landing in a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place you'd have been OK if you hadn't flared to early, ballooned up, come down hard, and broken a downtube.
...probably not as severe as yours, though.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIHfVnuNX0Y

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Ya think?
Practice practice practice on a small training hill might help.
Yeah, who ever heard of anyone breaking an arm practicing standup landings at a small training hill?
Learn to trust yourself and your glider through repetition.
Yeah Majo. Learn to trust yourself and your glider. Also learn to trust your fellow pilots, instructors, equipment manufacturers, policy makers and enforcers. The greater the trust you have in all things related to this sport the less likely you are to get fucked up and over.
Nothing wrong with landing on the wheels, though...
But keep landing with your hands on the downtubes...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27086
Steve Pearson on landings
Steve Pearson - 2012/03/28 23:26:05 UTC

I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.
...at shoulder or ear height where you can't control the glider in strong air and can get turned downwind - AGAIN - and where they're at the position at which you're most likely to...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27217
Bad Launch!
Ryan Voight - 2012/09/25 05:59:51 UTC

You see... the human shoulder limits how far you can pull in. Prone or upright, you can really only get your hands back about even with your shoulders.
...break your arms - AGAIN - 'cause ya just never know when you might need to be ready to land in a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place.
...if your LZ supports that.
It doesn't, Jesse. THIS:

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is the LZ she's using for practice. Really helps motivate the Hang Two candidates to get done what they NEED to get done.

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Fuckin' moron.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: landing

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31544
Flying after two broken arms
onemancoyote - 2014/07/10 20:00:25 UTC
Chattanooga

Sorry to hear of your accident...
Her what?
...and congratulations on getting cleared to go off of lookout.
I wouldn't be real quick to congratulate anybody to get CLEARED to go off Lockout.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=4171
Have you ever blown a launch?
David W. Johnson - 2007/11/05 00:57:23 UTC
Huntsville, Alabama

Just so you will know, blowing a launch is probably not the worst feeling in the world.

My fourteen year old daughter's first mountain launch went wrong. I got to watch her fall forty feet into the trees.

Everything turned out alright. She bruised her knee and even the glider wasn't badly hurt, but I have never posted the video on the net out of concern for the sport.
Does this guy:

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look like he was ready to be cleared to go off Lockout? Upright and in that piece o' shit atrocity of a "training" harness anyway?
I enjoyed my training at Lookout...
Does Chris look like he's enjoying HIS training at Lockout? Compare/Contrast:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_yTHPgNxsk
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_yTHPgNxsk[/video]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7pFLT3gLck
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7pFLT3gLck[/video]
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...and felt like they took good care of me.
Oh! You FELT LIKE they took good care of you. That's pretty telling. That's EXTREMELY indicative of a very deep suspicion that they actually DIDN'T take good care of you - that you don't really understand this shit and are harboring a lot of fear and doubt. Were that not the case you'd have said, "They took really great care of me. I got the basics communicated and drilled in in a clear, concise, efficient manner and I'm progressing up the ladder at a good clip."
I should be running around there on and off all weekend doing some flying and I hope to see you there.
Ask her:
- what she's:
-- doing to comply with: "With each flight, demonstrates a method of establishing that the pilot is hooked in just prior to launch."
-- using for a weak link and why and what she thinks its purpose is
- if she's towing with a release designed for towing anything
I would say do a bunch of straight flights off the big training hill...
If she's gonna be doing straight flights then what's the purpose of her going off the big training hill?
...and concentrate on rounding out at the proper altitude, going to trim, and flaring.
Yeah, get her flaring. Multiply her chances of breaking another arm by a factor of a thousand so she learns how to land safely.
I did really well, then got into bad habits that made me do poorly, and now I'm back to doing ok again after knocking out several 1000 ft tows in a row and getting some practice.
If they were doing such a great job of taking care of you then how were you able to develop bad habits?
ALSO I've seen some old pro's roll em in on purpose just to save wear and tear on their bodies.
But let's get Majo nailing those flares anyway 'cause she needs to learn how to safely land in narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place and she's already proven that her body can take it and pop right back up for more of the same.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: landing

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31544
Flying after two broken arms
AndRand - 2014/07/10 20:19:05 UTC
Poland
as always, the same cure Image
http://www.hanggliding.org/wiki/How_to_land_a_hang_glider
Davis Straub - 2014/07/10 20:27:08 UTC

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26379
Landings
Yeah...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25536
Whoops! Snapped another tip wand :-O
NMERider - 2012/03/14 15:17:14 UTC

Jim Rooney threw a big tantrum and stopped posting here.

His one-technique-fits-all attitude espoused on the Oz Report Forum has become tiresome to read. It does not work in the fucked-up world of XC landings and weary pilots.
Definitely...
Christopher LeFay - 2012/03/15 05:57:43 UTC

January's canonization of Rooney as the Patron Saint of Landing was maddening. He offered just what people wanted to hear: there is an ultimate, definitive answer to your landing problems, presented with absolute authority. Judgment problems? His answer is to remove judgment from the process - doggedly stripping out critical differences in gliders, loading, pilot, and conditions. This was just what people wanted - to be told a simple answer. In thanks, they deified him, carving his every utterance in Wiki-stone.
Go for it. What've ya got to lose? What's the worst that could happen?
michael170 - 2014/07/10 20:44:09 UTC

Looks like fun. Where do I sign up for some of this action?

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Mel Torres - 93654 - H3 - 2013/07/20 - Rob McKenzie - FL 360 FSL HA TUR
2014/07/11 15:12:31 - Sink This! -- Jason Boehm
2014/07/11 02:37:51 - Sink This! -- Ed061
2014/07/11 00:07:11 - Sink This! -- Paul Hurless
Looks like you're pushing the right buttons!
Jason Boehm - 2014/07/10 20:46:57 UTC

the only landing injury I have ever had in 14 years was when i landed a tandem on its wheels and managed to contact a small rock with the top of my kneecap........hurt like a son of a bitch and I couldn't straighten my leg for a few days
Hear that, Majo? Always go for foot landings and never roll it in 'cause the only landing injury Jason's ever had in fourteen years was when he landed a tandem on its wheels and managed to contact a small rock with the top of his kneecap - hurt like a son of a bitch and he couldn't straighten his leg for a few days.

Kinda makes ya wonder...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up
Jim Rooney - 2009/11/03 23:42:15 UTC

Ryan, Ryan, Ryan.... Hasn't anyone let you know that Tad knows everything?... and that the rest of us are complete morons?

I'll put Highland's (perfect) track record of over 60,000 successful tandem aerotows (yes, by this I mean ALL of them) against Tad's rantings.
...how all these tandem thrill ride operations all over the planet are doing it. Maybe by using tailwheel mods...

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5549/13995699911_14ebe6da3f_o.png
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...and/or...

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...not rolling in on rockpiles? And if you MUST roll in to rockpiles minus a tailwheel then...

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...use a fuckin' pair of kneepads ferchrisake.

Or, hell, just perfect your flare timing the way Jason did so's there's zero chance of you ever landing and not being able to come to dead stop on your feet.
NMERider - 2014/07/10 21:16:40 UTC

Be smart and start from scratch! Image

Begin by running with your glider on level ground with no harness. Run and fly the glider in your hands and then flare the glider to a stop. You can hang on the downtubes while you're doing this and let the glider support your weight. Do a lot of this until your fear begins to diminish.
How good an idea is it to get her fear to diminish? She just said:
Majo Gularte - 2014/07/10 19:39:51 UTC

I know that is OK landing on the wheels and I do it perfectly...
Why the fuck mess with that? I was always scared shitless of foot landings but I got through a career that spanned a period of the better part of three decades and never did anything significant to an arm, shoulder, neck. I was also scared shitless of launching unhooked and never came close to launching unhooked. Why is it a good thing to try to diminish perfectly rational well founded fears?

Wanna do something useful? Get her to lose the fuckin' backup loop.
Once you are comfortable running and flaring with no harness then do the same things on level ground with your harness on and now let the glider pull against your harness while you flare. Do this until you are comfortable and confident.

Next do the same thing on a small and shallow slope. Work you way up very gradually and build control and confidence at each step before going any further. If you push it too soon your residual fear from your accident will return and make you panic.

So please work your way up very gradually as though you have never flown a hang glider in your life.
OK, Majo... Let's pretend for a moment that there's some positive value to be derived from standup landings. This is pretty good advice. I learned a lot of stuff fast by volunteering to run the trainers back to the shop into the wind across the dunes.

- So how come you're getting it for free from Jonathan while the "professionals" you're PAYING to teach this shit aren't giving you shit?

- Wouldn't this tend to make you more than a bit nervous about what you're being taught and not taught by the assholes onemancoyote FEELS took good care of him?
2014/07/10 22:38:16 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Allen Sparks
2014/07/11 06:06:04 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Paul Hurless
2014/07/10 22:04:05 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Majo Glare
2014/07/11 02:35:28 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Ed061
2014/07/10 21:26:40 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Jason Boehm
C'mon guys. Answer the question. You too Majo. How come this is coming from Jonathan instead of the best flight school on the planet after refining their educational programs for three decades and untold tens of thousands of students worth of experience.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: landing

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31544
Flying after two broken arms
Steve Baran - 2014/07/10 21:27:34 UTC
Chattaroy

Run around on flat ground - A LOT - in various wind speeds. Practice flaring while doing this. Then go to training hills. Keep the wheels on just in case.
Don't even THINK about actually USING them or worry about the fact that hundreds of people have been violently knocked out of the sport because they committed to landing on their feet and viewed the wheels as something to have just in case. Just keep the wheels on just in case.
If you can run well enough for mountain launches you should also be able to run/flare on landings OK.
Just as long as they're not REAL landing flares. Those NOBODY does OK.
Wheels can cause issues on some launches when you want your glider to stay put.
So you probably wanna get on perfecting your flare timing so's you can get rid of the wheels and not hafta deal with that totally unnecessary hazard. Also... Make sure you don't consider options like wire crew and locking wheels.
If ya blow a landing - as in the great photo earlier...
1. That wasn't a blown landing. That was some asshole flying his glider into the ground and writing it off as late flare timing.
2. Thank you! Do I know how to select video stills or what!
...you'd better be letting go of at least one DT.
Yeah. Tell her that. Don't tell her that when this shit ACTUALLY HAPPENS...

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...the first indication that she'll have that she'd be better off off the downtubes is the sound of a humerus or two snapping in half.

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But she probably already knows that.

Also make sure you don't tell her just how much shit she can probably get into and walk away from if she goes in prone...

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...with both her hands on the basetube.
If ya really know you're going to biff it (such as downwind and fast)...
She's...

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...done that already. She really can't afford to be in a position like that ever again.
...you may want to consider both hands on the same DT - timing is tricky.
In other words... You're fucked. You really can't afford to be in a position like that ever again.

Lemme tell ya sumpin', Chattaroy...

http://mydreamsmypassions.wordpress.com/2013/10/16/warrior-spirit/
Warrior Spirit | My dreams, my passions
Majo Gularte - 2013/10/16

A few seconds later I was about to crash into a wooden fence that was just besides from where we were practicing. In the few seconds I had to react I thought that the trunks could hurt my stomach or my chest so hard that I decided to hold on very hard to the glider and hit the obstacle with my feet still don't know if it was the best decision... I want to believe that it was.
She knows how to think on the fly and make and execute split seconds decisions when the shit hits the fan. Problem is that sometimes all the options are pretty useless and all of the possible outcomes totally suck.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: landing

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31544
Flying after two broken arms
Majo Gularte - 2014/07/10 22:01:38 UTC
michael170 - 2014/07/10 20:44:09 UTC

Looks like fun. Where do I sign up for some of this action?

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I think is a little unsensitive to share that picture with me when I just said that I have a trauma about my accident. Image
1. You mean the picture you just copied and reposted? Yeah that was pretty unsensitive.

2. Told ya I knew how to pick stills outta these things.

3. It's an EXTREMELY unsensitive sport, Majo. It doesn't give a flying fuck about you or your glider, friends, family. And if I were you I'd be gobbling up stuff like this and asking why it happens to wheel equipped Rob McKenzie qualified Hang Threes in zilch conditions in the middles of meticulously groomed primary putting greens.

But, if it makes you feel better, continue listening to these Jack Show assholes telling you the kinds of bullshit you wanna hear - and not telling you about the kinds of bullshit...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=20756
How is Zach Etheridge doing?
Bob Flynn - 2011/02/04 11:26:34 UTC

Lookout keeps this kind of stuff under their hat. You never hear of accidents there. But every time I go there, I hear about quite a few. Blown launches, tree landings, etc.
...you don't wanna hear.
2014/07/11 15:12:22 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Jason Boehm
Right Jason. That was pretty unsensitive. What he should've shown her was a picture of somebody wheel landing and managing to contact a small rock with the top of his kneecap so Majo could better get a handle on where our REAL threats our coming from. But, strangely, those are so much harder to find than shit like:

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3859/14423696873_f1326e2320_o.png
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Mount a GoPro on your basetube and aim it backwards. Do some more wheel landings in rockpiles.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: landing

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31544
Flying after two broken arms
Majo Gularte - 2014/07/10 22:02:29 UTC UTC
Davis Straub - 2014/07/10 20:27:08 UTC

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26379
Landings
Thank you!!!
Majo Gularte - 2014/07/10 22:04:39 UTC
NMERider - 2014/07/10 21:16:40 UTC

Be smart and start from scratch!
Thats a great advise!!! I will do it!! thank you so much!!!!
Ya know, Majo... You've got a bit of a problem here. You're enthusiastically thanking both Davis and Jonathan for landing resources/advice and here's the latter's take on the former:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25536
Whoops! Snapped another tip wand :-O
NMERider - 2012/03/14 15:17:14 UTC

Jim Rooney threw a big tantrum and stopped posting here.

His one-technique-fits-all attitude espoused on the Oz Report Forum has become tiresome to read. It does not work in the fucked-up world of XC landings and weary pilots.
And here's a Lockout instructor's response to Jonathan's comment:
Christopher LeFay - 2012/03/15 05:57:43 UTC

January's canonization of Rooney as the Patron Saint of Landing was maddening. He offered just what people wanted to hear: there is an ultimate, definitive answer to your landing problems, presented with absolute authority. Judgment problems? His answer is to remove judgment from the process - doggedly stripping out critical differences in gliders, loading, pilot, and conditions. This was just what people wanted - to be told a simple answer. In thanks, they deified him, carving his every utterance in Wiki-stone.
So it's logically pretty much impossible to find both resources of value worthy of an expression of appreciation. So you've gotta think critically/logically, look at the data/evidence to reach solid conclusions.

IF there were any validity to this standup landing bullshit there wouldn't be Rooney caliber encyclopedias polluting vast regions of the web. There'd be one simple, universally recognized path to teaching/learning, everybody would be knocking the skill off in short order, the discussions would shift to ACTUAL useful, less straightforward, more complex issues - like soaring conditions predicting, strategies for locating and efficiently exploiting lift.

There IS a common thread through just about all these landing discussions: LAND ON THE FUCKIN' WHEELS. You can find that from Jonathan:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27415
Friday the 19th with Hawks & Friends!
NMERider - 2012/10/24 21:47:05 UTC

I have to say that landing on the wheels is so much fun it's not funny.
Davis:

http://ozreport.com/16.006
The one armed pilot
Davis Straub - 2012/01/07 05:12:11 UTC

I'm tweeting here in Forbes because I'm not flying here in Forbes (after flying the first day and a few practice days). I have a fully torn Supraspinatus tendon (rotator cuff) and that prevents me from flying with more than one arm.

I tore the tendon when I tripped running out a landing back at the end of September at the Santa Cruz Flats Race. I flew for a couple of days after that without problem, but now my right shoulder is no longer operational. I had thought (quite incorrectly) that I would be able to continue with my prior plans of flying in the pre-Worlds and get an operation at a later point, but this is not the case.

My plan is to head back to the US and have an orthopedic surgeon sew up my tendon and then spend six months in rehabilitation.

I flew the Moyes Malibu a couple of times before the competition, and was able to do so with one arm. The problem was landing with one arm. I could do it but it wasn't easy. I just couldn't get my mind to work the non working arm so flaring was almost non existent.

I flew the Airborne REV 13.5 on the first day of the competition. It was easy to fly (it had been tuned to be very easy, but not the best in glide) and I was getting pretty good as a one armed pilot. The trouble came again with the landing.

The first leg of the task was to the south, but we had a strong 10 knot west wind to fight going south and a blue sky with cu-nimbs to our north. We had to continually fight upwind to have any chance of getting to the turnpoint. The lift was mostly weak and broken, which made it all the more painful.

There was a not so high north south ridge upwind of the turnpoint at 20 km. We fought to get over on the windward side of it but that did no good as there was no lift on that side. Also as it turned out there was no wind. When I came into land hoping for wind to help with the landing, I found calm conditions. It was not a pretty landing, breaking the base tube as I landed flat on the wheels. I should have just come in and landed on the wheels.
Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26379
Landings
Jim Rooney - 2012/01/27 09:20:28 UTC

A while ago, I taught a student... from day one, to land on her wheels with absolutely zero intention of foot landing.
We do this all the time with aerotowing students.
So why not with hill students?

And I mean from day 1.
Yes, even the training hill flights.

Wheels wheels wheels wheels.
Majo:
Majo Gularte - 2014/07/10 19:39:51 UTC

I know that is OK landing on the wheels and I do it perfectly...
So if you wanna really get something outta these discussions...
Red Howard - 2014/07/10 23:24:29 UTC

Majo.Gularte,
Hang with me, my friend, here comes some real help. Image

Man, first thing, that is tough! You have a strong spirit.
And that's a GOOD thing? I find it's a lot easier to work with wimps and their prospects for long, successful, rewarding flying careers are a lot better.
There is nothing wrong with "wheels" landings, so do not be in a wild rush to change things.
Stop there.
It all comes, with enough time.
What? Broken arm? Dislocated shoulder?
You should not be landing on wheels with your fingers wrapped around the basetube. A passing rock could cut or crush a finger, then.
Yeah Red, that's a real biggie. Let's start off with stuff that's never actually happened so we can make sure Majo doesn't become the first.
Curl your fingers above the basetube, with nothing inside your fingers, and use your palms to hold the basetube out as you land.
And don't worry about what that rock that was big enough to crush your finger (yet so well camouflaged that you couldn't see it coming) is gonna do to one of your kneecaps after your basetube just passes harmlessly over it.
If the wheels hit a rock or a hole, your hand will just slip off the basetube, without serious injury.
A couple milliseconds before your glider powerwhacks and you break your fuckin' neck. But don't worry... Your fingers will be OK.

And Red... Don't forget to tell her to skip the preflight sidewire load test specified in her owner's manual lest she inadvertently grind one of her wires into one of those rocks in the setup area.
As said earlier, practice on flat ground, running and flaring hard, to make the glider stop. When you can do it without a harness, then practice "the run and flare" with a harness.
And make sure you do it in a field littered with large rocks so you get a good feel for the kinds of places...

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2916/14334828400_4cfc33e1e7_o.png
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...you'll actually be landing in. If you can't find one go to Home Depot and invest in a couple hundred pounds of bricks, break them in half, scatter them over your practice area. You want these drills to be as realistic as possible. Maybe dig a few holes as well.
A large part of the "injury picture" comes from holding tightly to the downtubes when you land.
BULL FUCKING SHIT. Virtually the ENTIRE "injury...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22176
Paragliding Collapses
Jim Rooney - 2011/06/12 13:57:58 UTC

Most common HG injury... spiral fracture of the humerus.
...picture" comes from...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27086
Steve Pearson on landings
Steve Pearson - 2012/03/28 23:26:05 UTC

I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.
...moving your hands from the positions at which you CAN control the glider to positions at which you CAN'T control the glider.
When the glider is flying, you can flare just as well with your hands open. A picture of an open-handed flare would look like the pilot is the winner of an election, or a prizefight. The downtubes rest in your palms as you flare, between the thumb and the palm, with the thumbs slightly forward and the fingers straight. As the glider settles downward, you use your hands to guide the downtubes to your shoulders, but you do not need to seize the downtubes, even then. If anything goes wrong, your open hands will just slip free, and many injuries can be avoided then. You do not want to be grasping the downtubes tightly if you fall - the glider will not do anything to save you, and it will injure you instead (as you now know). Actually, the harness can do a lot to save your bacon, when you are NOT grasping the downtubes tightly. Forget the glider, if there is a problem. The glider will save itself; you need to do the same thing.

Have some local HG experts demonstrate the "open-handed" flare to you when they land, so you will have some confidence in this method. Thinking about it alone is not good enough for you. You need to see it working.

:mrgreen:
Fuck this. You come in with your hands behind the downtubes...

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...and the goddam glider stops suddenly your hands are trapped and your gonna come off like THIS:

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*IF* you're lucky. If your hands are where THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO BE...

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...you're in pretty good shape to take a really big hit...

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...and walk away and borrow a glider for another hop.

But let's say that what Red is telling you is perfectly valid.
- How come you weren't being taught this at Lockout?
- Where are all the casualties saying, "DAMN! If ONLY I hadn't been gripping the downtubes!"?
User avatar
Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: landing

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31544
Flying after two broken arms
Geoffrey Chaney - 2014/07/11 00:03:21 UTC
Tarpon Springs

Thank you Majo for the great topic and inspirational courage.
Fuck courage. The less we have of it in aviation the better off everyone is.
Thanks to those providing valuable input.
And what thread are YOU reading?
I am just returning after an arm fracture as well.
Lemme guess...
Can not imagine X2.
Wanna help him out here, Zack?
Recovery has been slow probably partly due to age of 58.
Still, a helluva lot better than the broken neck you'd have undoubtedly gotten if you HADN'T been rotated upright with your hands on the downtubes in that narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place you were undoubtedly coming down in.
I am anxious about resuming foot landing as well...
Nah. Just keep doing the same sorta thing you were before. You're BOUND to get better results.
...and advise on this thread has helped.
1. Didn't help you learn how to spell "ADVICE".

2. That's what you thought about the advise that got you the broken arm.

- How long did it take you to demonstrate that that advise wasn't all it could've been?

- For how many landings did you apply the advise that pouring in four hours and eight minutes prior to this post? Are you sure you've accumulated enough data to validate that statement?
Hope I get to meet you out at Quest.
Which is where you got your arm broken, I presume?

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28422
Any experience with Wallaby Ranch / Florida Ridge?
Geoffrey Chaney - 2013/02/22 12:48:47 UTC

Don't forget Quest Air. Another wonderful place to learn and practice AT. They also have ET. Electric tow, which is a great aid to learning... Stay High
Sounds like you failed to stay high enough long enough.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31433
landing - FAIL
Geoffrey Chaney - 2014/06/21 22:06:50 UTC
Falcon 4 195

Been there, done that. Hope you are OK. Broke my R humorous when I did it.
We sure didn't get much of a report on it. I'da thunk that the highly safety conscious consummate professionals at Quest would've wanted to bring this to everyone's attention and lead a productive discussion about how to minimize the likelihood of a rerun. Is there something I missed out there?

How come THEY didn't give the kind of advise that helped that you got here?

Did Quest...

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...construct a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place so their trainees and regulars could learn, maintain, hone the skills they'll need stopping in REAL hang glider landing environments?
Happy Landings to all...
THIS:

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http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7454/14066784614_b40ffe1223_o.png
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is a happy landing...

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2934/14062779771_0d7fb040e6_o.png
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Everything else...

http://forum.hanggliding.org/download/file.php?id=18967
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...is bullshit.
User avatar
Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: landing

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31544
Flying after two broken arms
Nic Welbourn - 2014/07/11 05:36:52 UTC

STOKED TO HEAR YOU ARE BACK!!! Image Image Image Image Image Image
AND BEING SET UP BY A BUNCH OF MORONIC JACK SHOW ASSHOLES FOR ANOTHER BROKEN ARM!!! Image Image Image Image Image Image
Some good advice...
...advise...
...in this thread for you despite the insensitive...
...unsensitive...
...one.
Actually, I count ELEVEN unsensitive ones - including yours - and the only really sensitive one is the one you're characterizing as unsensitive.

The injury your average hang glider jockey is most likely to sustain...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22176
Paragliding Collapses
Jim Rooney - 2011/06/12 13:57:58 UTC

Most common HG injury... spiral fracture of the humerus.
...is a broken arm. A broken arm is a consequence almost exclusively of having one's hands on the downtubes such that...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27086
Steve Pearson on landings
Steve Pearson - 2012/03/28 23:26:05 UTC

I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.
...he has total shit control of his glider at THE most critical and dangerous phases of flight and...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27217
Bad Launch!
Ryan Voight - 2012/09/25 05:59:51 UTC

You see... the human shoulder limits how far you can pull in. Prone or upright, you can really only get your hands back about even with your shoulders.
...serendipitously, having his hands trapped in the absolute best places to guarantee a snapped arm or two WHEN that total shit control translates into a crash. This is EXACTLY what's bought Majo two broken arms at the conclusion of one six second training flight already.

And there's TEN of you Jack Show motherfuckers so for encouraging her to do this bullshit AGAIN on the rationalization that this will keep her safe WHEN she needs to land in a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place.

What you motherfuckers SHOULD be telling her is don't even THINK about a foot landing until after you've racked up a couple hundred hours of wheel landing flights in primary putting greens...

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...and XC equivalents that people ACTUALLY LAND IN and then STILL don't do it. She can NEVER EVER risk breaking another arm. THAT would be the sensitive, caring thing to do. But you don't really give a flying fuck about her. The standup no-stepper is at the top of your religion and Majo is down there just one step below cow shit on your jeans and just five steps up from T** at K*** S******.
If it were me (not that I can imagine!), I'd do as NME suggests asap.
Yeah Majo. Do that as quickly as possible. The biggest threat you face at this stage of your career is not being able to stop on a dime in a switchy narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place. Don't worry about launching unhooked, blowing a launch, getting inconvenienced back on your face by Rooney Link, locking out with a release within easy reach, clipping a tree on approach, getting nailed by a tailwind on final through total, some, or no fault of your own. All those issues can be put on the back burner for as many decades as it takes you to perfect your flare timing.
Great stuff Image
Suck my dick.
User avatar
Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: landing

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31544
Flying after two broken arms
Jorge Zingg Jorge - 2014/07/11 11:18:40 UTC
Switzerland

It can help to practice just getting upright and then back to prone while you are high in the air (but NOT flaring, ok?).
Nah, for the love o' GOD *DON'T* FLARE. That would be the equivalent of going up pro toad into a monster thermal and having your Rooney Link increase the safety of the towing operation. You could end up like THIS:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg
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I do this sometimes, when I have had a bad transition or just when I've been grounded for a while, just to remember where to look at, where the bar is, etc.
Yeah, Majo. You can see just how effective this is... Guy from Switzerland, probably has a launch in his back yard and flies his brains out, practices this bullshit at altitude, still botches transitions in the hundred acre putting green LZ, continues practicing the same thing, expects better results...

You do enough repetitions of this insane bullshit there's only one way this story ends.
In combination with NME's advice of flaring in the ground while running might give you the confidence of doing the whole movement sequence at some point.
Yeah Majo. That's just what you need. CONFIDENCE in your ability to master and perfectly and consistently execute an insane procedure that nobody in the entire history of the sport has ever been able to master and perfectly and consistently execute.

Listen to this guy:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27086
Steve Pearson on landings
Steve Pearson - 2012/03/28 23:26:05 UTC

I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.
Is that the voice of confidence? Or is it the voice of doubt, humility, experience, understanding, respect for the forces and variables at play?

THIS:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31041
Genuinely advanced pilot
Craig Piazzi - 2014/04/06 17:00:07 UTC
Telluride

The Best pilots are those whose awareness and decision making skills are in the moment, and so remain flexible, able to adjust at an instant and have access to the most options and skills available to safely fly in an ever changing environment.
is very similar to what Steve's saying. That ain't the voice of confidence neither. That's the voice of flexibility - being able to assess and adjust to reality.
But it might take some time...
There's one thing he's got rightish - grotesquely understated as it is.
Dennis Wood (peanuts) - 2014/07/11 13:04:32 UTC
Suffolk, Virginia

i know you indicated you received your injury while "scooter-towing", but i can't think of any way faster to achieve proficiency at landings...
She already HAS proficiency at landings...
Majo Gularte - 2014/07/10 19:39:51 UTC

I know that is OK landing on the wheels and I do it perfectly...
...pigfucker.
...than with a GOOD instructor with experience at scooter-towing.
Yeah, go up to Blue Sky. Steve's the master of the form. And while you're there ask him to explain why he advises:

http://www.willswing.com/learn/scooterTow/
Wills Wing - Scooter Tow Resources
Wills Wing / Blue Sky / Steve Wendt / Ryan Voight Productions - 2007/03

NEVER CUT THE POWER...

Image

Reduce Gradually
Increase Gradually
and:
But with the towline we use a standard weak link like we would for aerotow... Uh... This... In this particular case it's 130 green line, 130 pound test.
Ask him what the:
- purpose of that standard weak link like we would for aerotow is
- variables are in that particular case
- appropriate fishing line is for other particular cases are
Jim Gaar - 2014/07/11 13:44:56 UTC

Great to see you are still going for it!
Going for what, Jim? Another twofer?
Good advice above!
Check some background on this piece of shit. Then tell me whether or not warning lights are flashing when he talks about the good advice above.
I still have that helmet if you want it.
Why would she want a helmet? She's gearing up for foot landings. A good pair of boots with good ankle support is what she REALLY needs.
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