landing

General discussion about the sport of hang gliding
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Tad Eareckson
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Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: landing

Post by Tad Eareckson »

1994/10/29 - Gerry Smith - 56 - extensive, USHGA #216, Advanced, "flying for 20 years"
- UP Comet 165 - Sand Dollar Beach, Big Sur
- internal, head, face, hip, arm

Rich Collins:

At about seventy feet he decided to land and began his regular approach. I know this approach well, because after seeing him perform consistently good landings I adopted it as my own. First, you climb to the upright position at about seventy feet on your base leg, with a slight turn toward final so as not to be bumped downwind. Second you turn your glider into the wind and begin final approach. Third, you pull in the bar. I know Gerry pulled in the bar because I saw him do it. Granted, you can't pull it in very far but he did pull in.

It was right about there, at about 50' AGL that his nose pitched up hard, but there was no gain of altitude as with the other pilots. It looked very strange, almost as if it had gusted from behind. The glider pitched nose down and began to fall. It was still moving at the same ground speed but was obviously not flying. Everyone knew he was in trouble. I kept waiting for the glider to recover but it refused until about 10' AGL when I saw the bridles kick in and the nose start to pull up. I assume Gerry knew he was in trouble and flared the glider to brake his descent, but still nothing. He impacted at high speed with the base tube hitting just before the nose.

Gerry was unconscious when I reached him and very badly hurt. At that moment I thought he was gone, but after a couple of seconds he started to moan. He slowly regained consciousness, asking what had happened over and over. At one point he said he remembered saying, "Oh shit!" and was worried about what his wife Bert would do when she heard.

After they loaded him into the helicopter the chief paramedic pulled me aside and said he felt Gerry was in good shape for his age and could tell he was a fighter. We all felt very optimistic that he would make it. We were wrong. Gerry had severe internal injuries and didn't stand a chance. I feel that, considering the remote location of the accident, he received prompt and adequate care, and I thank everyone who tried to save his life.

Gerry was a topnotch pilot with 17 years of experience (USHGA #216) and a father to the entire "E" Team of Elsinore, California. He is survived by wife Bert, son Jim and daughter Stephanie.
http://ozreport.com/8.133
The European Championships at Millau
Gerolf Heinrichs - 2004/06/24

Bad news from the Europeans in Millau - and it's not just about the weather!

This is the major hang gliding event of the season and was expected to be the highlight of the European competition flying. Due to a most competent organising team around meet director Richard Walbec everybody expected only the very best from it.

Now, one task into the meet we are all hanging our heads as we just get confirmation about the fatal accident of Croatian team pilot Ljubomir Tomaskovic. He apparently encountered some strong turbulences on his landing approach. He got pitched up and turned around from a strong gust at low altitude, then impacted tailwind into some treetops from where he fell hard onto the ground.

Despite instant attempts at the landing field, Ljubomir died very soon after from his severe head and internal injuries.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25536
Whoops! Snapped another tip wand :-O
NMERider - 2012/03/14 15:17:14 UTC

I refuse to come in with both hands on the downtubes ever again. I have had some very powerful thermals and gusts kick off and lost control of the glider due to hands on the downtubes. I prefer both hands on the control bar all the way until trim and ground effect. I have been lifted right off the deck in the desert and carried over 150 yards.
http://www.shga.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=1030
Fatality at Sylmar Today?
Roz - 2008/06/23 18:16:35 UTC

I was just a visiting pilot from SLC, but happened to be in the LZ with my video camera. I caught all but the impact (thankfully), and was one of the first on the scene. I just want to stress that we only get one chance to land, so everything must be premeditated and carefully planned, especially on hot rowdy days such as Saturday. So to everyone returning to Earth, keep that bar in, speed is safety, and into the wind. Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
So, even without seeing the report Joe is so rabidly suppressing or watching the video that he managed to squelch, we know EXACTLY what happened. It was a hot, rowdy day, the bar was out, probably had his hands on the downtubes at shoulder or ear height, he didn't have enough speed, he got turned and crashed downwind.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27217
Bad Launch!
Ryan Voight - 2012/09/25 05:59:51 UTC

You see... the human shoulder limits how far you can pull in. Prone or upright, you can really only get your hands back about even with your shoulders.
But this is the idiot CRAP Joe's been passing off as hang gliding instruction for forty years:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7671
Gallery Of Pain
Christian Williams - 2012/01/18 19:58:00 UTC

Here's the way Greblo looks at it (or how I remember his lectures):

We take off and land upright. Therefore, all the bad stuff happens when we are upright. And close to the ground.

Therefore, learn to fly upright in the worst conceivable (and sudden hairy) conditions. (One up / one down is "upright").

The alternative, if "more secure prone", is to go prone instantly upon take-off, and stay prone until the last possible landing moment.

In both cases, this requires a change of hand and body position in the worst conceivable conditions near the ground.

Therefore, in order never to change hand position near the ground, it is necessary to learn to face all the worst moments (thermals, gusts, sinkholes, midairs, gear failure, downwind landings and takeoffs, a lifted wing into boulders and an entire wire ground crew snagged on your jock strap) upright.

A little reflection suggests that taking off upright and flying upright until well away from the danger zone is not very different from ground handling, where you are flying standing on dirt. A good test of upright flying skills is whether you can ground handle a glider in 25 mph of laminar flow. Do you require a wire crew? Hmmm.

Greblo will not sign off a Hang 3 (US intermediate rating) who cannot ground handle with confidence at the limit of his takeoff judgment.

He's not dogmatic about this for veteran fliers, recognizing that gliders and skills and terrain are different. He just provides his analysis. You often see him flying around in violent thermals upright, just (I think) as a kind of advertisement and thought-provoker.
This is TOTALLY analogous to Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney's:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks
Jim Rooney - 2013/03/05 21:40:02 UTC

You want to break off the towline? Push out... push out hard... it will break.
As others have pointed out, they've used this fact intentionally to get off tow. It works.

You want MORE.
I want you to have less.
This is the fundamental disagreement.
You're afraid of breaking off with a high AOA? Good... tow with a WEAKER weaklink... you won't be able to achieve a high AOA. Problem solved.
All the bad stuff happens when we are upright close to the ground. Therefore, spend more time upright close to the ground so you learn how to handle all the bad stuff that will happen like...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27086
Steve Pearson on landings
Steve Pearson - 2012/03/28 23:26:05 UTC

I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.
...getting turned downwind in strong air 'cause you were upright with your hands on the downtubes and couldn't control the glider.

http://www.shga.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=954
Janyce is in USC Medical Center
Robert Burgis - 2008/03/25 07:10:27 UTC

For those who do not know, Janyce Collins had a "hard landing" today, apparently flaring high at the end of the overshoot hill and pounding in hard enough to break her right arm and right foot.

She spent many hours in Olive View Hospital but was transferred to USC Medical center at about 10:00 PM with no work done for her injuries. The arm fracture (closed humerus fracture) will require surgery but the foot (heel fracture) may not.
Problem solved. Rooney Link breaks at the worst possible time, when the glider is climbing hard in a near stall situation? Use a weaker one. Problem solved.

Joe's taught this moronic crap since the beginning of time, he doesn't give a rat's ass how many people it crashes, mangles, cripples, kills, and he's not gonna allow into circulation any fatality reports...

http://www.shga.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=1389
Where are the Accident Reports for the two fatalities 2008?
Joe Greblo - 2009/04/11 15:16:54 UTC

Accident reports for both Richard and Jeff have been submitted to the USHPA. I sent one in for Richard and the SHGA has a copy in their files. I suspect accident reports were submitted by more than just one individual. For Richard's accident, I personally have a copy of the one I sent in and one that Rome sent. I'd be happy to share them with any current club member that would like to read them in my presence, but I don't think that they will be published out of deference to the families.

This is because accident reports are submitted by simple witnesses to the accident and not professional accident investigators. These witnesses are often other pilots, or simply spectators or passers by. The content often includes personal opinions of why the accident happened; opinions that do not necessarily hold true.
...which support the opinion that airspeed is desirable when landing in turbulence. And, of course...
The USHPA often publishes summaries of accident reports in an effort to educate pilots as to specific dangers or accident trends. I don't know if a summary covering Richard or Jeff's accidents will appear in a future issue of Hang Gliding Magazine.
...neither is USHGA.
Richard Seymour - 54015 - H4 - 2004/07/07 - Joseph Szalai - AT FL AWCL CL FSL RLF TUR XC
Janyce Collins - 2785 - H4 - 2010/05/10 - Joseph Szalai - AT FL AWCL RLF TUR
Joseph Szalai - 43096 - H4 - 1987/12/06 - Ted Boyse - ADV INST, TAND INST, TUG PILOT
Ted Boyse - 36051 - H4 - 1984/03/17 - Joe Greblo - FL AWCL CL FSL RLF TUR XC
Here's the whole quote in context...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27086
Steve Pearson on landings
Steve Pearson - 2012/03/28 23:26:05 UTC

I wouldn't presume to teach others how to land but for me the challenge is having precise control of the glider before flare. The flare window is really long on a T2, maybe two seconds or fifty feet, but I can't initiate pitch unless the wings are level and the glider isn't yawed (you can see the result in the landing video...
http://vimeo.com/39102874
Pearson whacks Greblo

Pearson whacks Greblo
http://vimeo.com/39102874
Steven Pearson - 2012/03/24 10:51
dead
...I start thinking about avoiding Joe, the glider yaws almost imperceptibly and I drop a wing). Landing straight is easy in smooth or dead air but sometimes requires every bit of control authority that I can manage if the LZ is breaking off or if I have to maneuver late on approach. I always have plenty of pitch authority and don't grip the downtubes because it only takes a light push to get the nose up. I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.

My other comment is that I like to make a long low final. I can flare more aggressively from close to the ground, I don't have to worry about mushing through a gradient and I'm only arresting forward motion.
I wouldn't presume to teach others how to land...
...and contradict and piss off the assholes selling my gliders for me, motivate them to drop Wills Wing and pick up Moyes...
...but for me...
...(your fundamental Newtonian physics may vary)...
...the challenge is having precise control of the glider before flare.
But if you're one of Joe's (Greblo's or Szalai's (Hungary's)) students and thus flying upright with your hands at shoulder or ear height with no ability to attain any airspeed, pitch, roll control then you'll be totally at the mercy of Mother Nature and just fine - 'cause she's very loving and caring.
The flare window is really long on a T2, maybe two seconds or fifty feet, but I can't initiate pitch unless the wings are level and the glider isn't yawed (you can see the result in the landing video, I start thinking...
..."I wonder if I can kill this motherfucker and make it look like an accident."
...about avoiding Joe...
Nah. Better not risk it.
...the glider yaws almost imperceptibly and I drop a wing). Landing straight is easy in smooth or dead air...
...like it really really really wasn't at the Kagel primary at 2008/06/21 14:55 PDT...
...but sometimes requires every bit of control authority that I can manage...
Oh. Control authority during landing is a GOOD thing? Wow! Who'da thunk! But even at the expense of being able to stop it on your feet?
...if the LZ is breaking off...
...like it was at the Kagel primary at 2008/06/21 14:55 PDT...
...or if I have to maneuver late on approach.
Exactly like Richard Seymour was doing was doing coming into the Kagel primary at 2008/06/21 14:55 PDT.
I always have plenty of pitch authority and don't grip the downtubes because it only takes a light push to get the nose up. I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height...
...where Richard Seymour had his coming into the Kagel primary at 2008/06/21 14:55 PDT...
...and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.
And out of the Kagel primary, across the street, and into the houses like Richard Seymour was at 2008/06/21 14:55 PDT.
My other comment is that I like to make a long low final.
Versus the slow, steep, upright, hands on the downtubes at shoulder or ear height bullshit Richard Seymour was doing was doing coming into the Kagel primary at 2008/06/21 14:55 PDT.
I can flare more aggressively from close to the ground, I don't have to worry about mushing through a gradient...
...like Richard Seymour was doing was doing coming into the Kagel primary at 2008/06/21 14:55 PDT...
...and I'm only arresting forward motion.
And if you DON'T it's not that big of a fucking deal 'cause the glider's already down and just about out of energy and there's not much significantly bad that can happen at that point - a bonk or broken downtube at worst.

Does anybody with a functional brain believe for a nanosecond that Steve isn't totally talking about Richard during the entire course of this sickeningly diplomatic dissertation?

Here's Jonathan saying EXACTLY the same thing:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25536
Whoops! Snapped another tip wand :-O
NMERider - 2012/03/14 15:17:14 UTC

Landing clinics don't help in real world XC flying. I have had the wind do 180 degree 15 mph switches during my final legs. What landing clinic have you ever attended that's going to help? I saved that one by running like a motherfukker. And BTW - It was on large rocks on an ungroomed surface.

Jim Rooney threw a big tantrum and stopped posting here.

His one-technique-fits-all attitude espoused on the Oz Report Forum has become tiresome to read. It does not work in the fucked-up world of XC landings and weary pilots.

I refuse to come in with both hands on the downtubes ever again. I have had some very powerful thermals and gusts kick off and lost control of the glider due to hands on the downtubes. I prefer both hands on the control bar all the way until trim and ground effect. I have been lifted right off the deck in the desert and carried over 150 yards.
...very UNdiplomatically 'cause he's not trying to sell anybody anything and he's not working inside the Industry power structure.
I like what Steve Pearson does when he comes in and may adapt something like that.
The polar opposite of what scumbags like Joe Greblo, Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney, Matt Taber, pretty much everyone else are teaching and requiring.

P.S. Note the total and conspicuous absence of Hungary Joe's participation in the post Richard Seymour discussions.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: landing

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.shga.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=1098
Jeff Craig Was Killed On Landing Today
http://www.crestlinesoaring.org/forum/20080829/1550
Tom Cornelius - 2008/09/01 19:03

I saw Jeff's crash and it didn't appear he was having any problems other than being too low in heavy sink. There was a comment about earlier heart problems. I didn't see the downwind but in his base turn he was really sinking fast, his final was smooth, and he leveled his wings perfectly but was still sinking like a stone.

I'm a PG pilot and don't know much about landing hang gliders...
That's OK. It should be stunningly obvious to you now that hang glider pilots don't know shit about landing hang gliders.
...but if he could have extended his base another fifteen feet he would have come in on level in the normal landing area, off the side of the rocky area of the wash. I'm thinking he did what he had to in abnormally heavy sink to keep from dragging a wing tip.
How 'bout if he'd just done a tight approach with lotsa speed?

http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1525/26167489042_9f5e5af537_o.png
Image

He came in too fuckin' wide, long, and slow to allow for serious sink and put it in the LZ and so he went down into the crap that 99 percent of his Grebloville landing training was geared to handle and he couldn't handle it. If one hundred percent of his training had been geared towards getting it into the fuckin' LZ and ZERO percent had been geared towards safely stopping in narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place he'd have been totally fine. Even slamming into the LZ with no wheels and snapping a couple downtubes is almost always better than flying into a boulder.

So how come Joe's bending over so backwards to suppress shit as straightforward as this?

THIS CRAP:

Image
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is what Joe sells - his special patented little flavor of hang gliding.

- Look! I fly around all the time with my hands on the downtubes!

Image

So, obviously, I'm totally capable of handling any situation that comes my way just after launch or coming into the LZ with my hands on the downtubes!

- Look! I've been trained to never get into my harness unless it's connected to my glider!

11-A12819
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8339/28924980016_2ba1d20ef7_o.png
Image

So, obviously, I never need to do a hook-in check!

- Look! I've learned to pro tow in a short clinic with Steve Exceptionally-Knowledgeable Wendt!

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2923/14562846131_a2860aacdb_o.png
Image
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3897/14571089821_0ec493e856_o.png
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http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3728/9655895292_f4f808fb0e_o.png
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So, obviously, I'm totally capable of handling any situation that comes my way at any point on tow with nothing going to the glider and the bar already stuffed at trim speed!

- Look! I've been properly trained on how to always stay prepared for and react to a standard aerotow weak link pop at two thousand feet in smooth air!

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg
Image

So, obviously, for me a standard aerotow weak link pop is a mere inconvenience!

- Look! I've got a release with a very long track record within very easy reach at all times and have practiced making the easy reach every time I've gotten on the cart and have never had the slightest problem with it!

Image
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So, obviously, I'm always gonna be able to release the towline before there is a problem and not be one of those guys who think they can fix bad things and don't want to start over!

I one hundred percent guarantee you that the more ways people figure out how to kill themselves and others in this sport the more the people controlling The Industry will continue to work to legitimize, institutionalize, promote the critical issues as acceptable practice, standard operating procedure, highly advisable for the safety minded pilot. And I'm totally one hundred percent serious about that. That's the absolute safest course for it to steer to sell the sport and shield itself from any iotas of accountability and liability.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: landing

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31546
Wheel Landings: Broadening the Window
Jason Boehm - 2014/07/11 15:31:57 UTC
Fletcher - 2014/07/11 00:22:17 UTC

Imagine a scenario where you have a choice to land on wheels or not fly at all. What would you choose?
Please don't criticize others for their methods just because theirs are different than yours.
Tiberiu Szollosi - 2014/07/11 01:26:06 UTC

I agree, if it weren't for wheels i could no way in hell land on my fucked up knee while wearing a prosthetic leg.
Wheels make it possible for me to fly - I could not fly at all if i had no wheels. Image
sounds a hell of a lot like a restriction to me...
Heartbreaking. While all of his buddies are stretching their glides and having total blasts landing in narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place he's having to search out big flat putting green fields to roll into. Sometimes you really hafta ask yourself if a quality of life like that is really worth continuing.
i'm happy that you can still land on wheels, you are the exception
Much less so as the hang gliding population gets older, more beat up, tired of crashing and breaking things, possibly a bit smarter in one or two areas.
again, by all means, land on your wheels, I'm not criticizing that choice
Why the fuck should anyone give a rat's ass if you are?
what I am critical of...
Image
...is the notion that if you are physically capable of landing on your feet, and choose to land on wheels out of apathy/ laziness/fear/whatever...
All of the above, motherfucker - with an extra big helping of whatever.
...that when you come across a situation where wheel landing is not an option...
Whoa! I've never had that happen. And I've been searching the web for years looking for video examples with a total lack of success. Can you help me out here? Got any examples from your own collection?
...you aren't just going to be able to pull on out of your ass and land safely...
Whoa! Never thought of that before! Sure talked ME out of trying to land in dangerous crap.
...odds are damn good that you are going to get hurt.
Image

Lemme know if your brain ever makes it up to walnut size, Jason.
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: landing

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31546
Wheel Landings: Broadening the Window
Tiberiu Szollosi - 2014/07/11 21:00:49 UTC

I understand.
Trust me, if the situation requires me to land in crop I'll be doing my best to stick it down on my feet :mrgreen:
1. IF the situation requires me to land in crops? That doesn't happen two or three times a weekend like it does for the local flyers and three times that rate for the XCers?

2. Like Paul Vernon was doing his best to stick it down on HIS feet with two good legs and nothing but foot landing practice before he blew it anyway, mushed his brain, and permanently disappeared from the sport?

3. What's your data indicating that even putting it down in crops foot landing is the safer option than bellying in?

4. What are you imagine the scenario is in which things are so tits up that you're gonna be having to come down in crops but your gonna be able to pull off a nice textbook no stepper at croptop level like regular human types blow three quarters of the time in ideal conditions in the primary putting green?

Here's what Steve Pearson says:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27086
Steve Pearson on landings
Steve Pearson - 2012/03/28 23:26:05 UTC

I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.
He's saying that even when he's coming into the primary putting green in dicey conditions the instant his hands come off the basetube the situation becomes dangerous crap. And you don't think that's gonna apply to YOU after you've been kicked out of Plan A? Probably out of Plan B as well 'cause that's almost always the case when people are actually having to attempt to ditch in crops.
Dave Hopkins - 2014/07/11 21:40:56 UTC

we are in it for the air time how we leave the ground (get in the air) and get back to the ground does not matter as long as it is safe.
A fuckin' men.
michael170 - 2014/07/11 21:46:24 UTC

Fukin A, Dave! Image
Burch - 2014/07/12 01:30:12 UTC

I am 53 and have bad knees.
From practicing foot landings and getting them right?
I blew them out riding dirt bikes in my youth. Occasionally I am known to belly in.
When the situation's too dangerous to try to land safely?
But in my opinion...
Yeah, here we go...
...along with safe launches, good landings are paramount in our sport in regard to safe flying. I am constantly working to improve and master flare timing/technique.
Big fuckin' surprise. DO let us know when you've mastered it so's we can register you on the list and issue the certificate.
Not because I am landing in areas where I have to...
Nobody does. And when they do they don't.
...but because it is a skill that every able-bodied pilot should have.
And nobody actually does - 'specially the ones constantly working to improve and master flare timing/technique and almost invariably becoming disable-bodied ex pilots.
If you avoid landing on your feet for the sake of convenience...
...along with replacing your miracle fishing line with something that doesn't blow and dump you on your face six times in a row for the sake of convenience...
...that neglect will only increase the chance of finding yourself in an unsafe situation.
How far up your ass did you hafta reach to be able to pull THAT out?
I don't know what low bone density means exactly...
Polar and extreme opposite of what you've got in the skull department.
...I hope it is not debilitating.
Even if it is it's not your most serious problem.
But if you can, I implore you to hone your landing skills.
No matter...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22176
Paragliding Collapses
Jim Rooney - 2011/06/12 13:57:58 UTC

Most common HG injury... spiral fracture of the humerus.
...how many arms you break in the process.

Isn't it totally fucking amazing how few people we're killing in crops and narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place because they'd failed to master flare timing/technique given that:

- everyone who flies hang gliders will inevitably go down in crops or narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place next weekend

- the only possible way to be able to survive going down in crops or narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place is to have mastered flare timing/technique

- nobody in the entire history of the sport has ever come anywhere close to mastering flare timing/technique
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: landing

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31546
Wheel Landings: Broadening the Window
NMERider - 2014/07/16 16:30:32 UTC

When I come in hot and roll out there is almost no weight on the wheels until airspeed gets below stall speed. Less weight on the wheels means the glider is flying and pilot still has some roll authority. It also means if bumps or ruts are hit the effect will be minimized. Obviously it's the pilot's call how to approach each situation.
AndRand - 2014/07/16 16:44:04 UTC
Poland

IMHO that's asking for proper whack.
Wanna know what's REALLY asking for a proper whack?
With touchdown on CG full back there is almost no possibility of whack - horizontal and vertical speeds at minimum, nose totally up.
Mel Torres - 2014/07/16 22:25:27 UTC

Somebody flies with wheels. Big whipdeedo. So unless that someone rolls over you in the LZ shut up and leave them alone. I fly with the six inch whoosh wheels on my WW U2 160. And if I ever transition to a topless, I'll put some sort of wheels on it. I like the extra margin of safety they provide.
That's your ONLY margin of safety, dude.
Mainly If I do whack or trip and end up prone, the wheels may just save my wing or more importantly my hide.
Works a helluva lot better if you cut out the middleman, start off / stay prone, virtually eliminate the possibility of whacking and totally eliminate the possibility of tripping.
So unless you're paying for my wings, tough shit! Now shut up and go fly a kite.
Stop being so nasty. If Jason is deprived of the joy of constantly pissing over wheel landers with no interests in landing in narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place what would be the point of him remaining in the sport?
NMERider - 2014/07/16 22:53:22 UTC
IMHO that's asking for proper whack.
I've done many of these landings with nary an incident. How many such landings have you done yourself?

The majority of whacks are caused by landing with the wings not level or free from yaw. Once a wingtip touches the ground it's very difficult to prevent the whack. Coming in hot on wheels helps to insure that wings are both level and free of yaw.

What you are proposing is actually likely to result in a ground loop and I have seen many among wheel landings done as you describe.
John Stokes - 2014/07/17 01:29:46 UTC
Mel Torres - 2014/07/16 22:25:27 UTC

Somebody flies with wheels...
ImageImageImage
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Tad Eareckson
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Re: landing

Post by Tad Eareckson »

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31574
Alpha meets Atos
leesidelee - 2014/07/16 20:59:14 UTC

Also talking with mostly every paraglider pilot they are scared of hangliding because of the landing approach speeds...
Bullshit. NOBODY's scared of hang glider landing approach speeds.

- Hang glider landing approaches are absolute blasts - from one end of the experience range:

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to the other:

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- No hang glider pilot has EVER said, "Approaches on these things scare the crap outta me. I'm always so relieved when I've bled off just about all my speed and am prepping to nail that flare."

- THIS:

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is what scares the crap outta everyone with half a brain or better - and for totally excellent reasons. And we never hafta do that if we really don't want to.
...again which spoilerons would really help with our slow speed roll control.
Fuck spoilerons - with respect to landing issues anyway. We've got untold tens of thousands of foot landers who all feel that they've got enormous reserves of roll control they're perfectly OK with...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27086
Steve Pearson on landings
Steve Pearson - 2012/03/28 23:26:05 UTC

I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.
...totally squandering.
(Grow the sport)
(Fix and stop shrinking it first.)
Anyone know Steve Pearson personally and well enough to pressure him to look into spoilerons??
How 'bout first pressuring the motherfucker to look into making his gliders safe to land and tow and giving us some harnesses built to land while he's at it.
Robert Moore - 2014/07/16 21:29:05 UTC

First off - I love coming into ground effect with speed, and would never want to give that up. Both the cool sensation and the enhanced control are big turn-ons for me.
Goddam right. There's nobody who loves flying who doesn't resemble that remark.
Jason Boehm - 2014/07/16 22:12:42 UTC

why wouldn't you want to do this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BD2vBX7udM
'Cause I want my landings to be as safe and fun as possible, not the polar opposite - asshole.
User avatar
Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: landing

Post by Tad Eareckson »

7-6-12 Mansfield encampment (a day in the life) 77 mile
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoGv_5uGdNo
OK, here's Mike End-Of-Story Bomstad coming in on final. Watching the video we can see from his control corrections that the air's a little bouncy and from the dust drift at the end that he's flying straight into a light headwind.

Now let's watch Mike's struggle to get his right hand off of the CONTROL BAR to the downtube at shoulder or ear height where he can't control the glider. (He's not getting tangled up with a tail wire - he just comes in WAY too far in fore. Air ball. Check out Frames 06 and 10.

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OK! Got it! Now let's get way the fuck over to the right and get that wing back down.

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Look where his left wingtip is relative to the horizon and check out his shadow in comparison to the previous frames.

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OK, got the glider back under control. (Note shadow.) Now let's move the other hand from the CONTROL BAR to the downtube at shoulder or ear height where we can't control the glider...

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Not bad. Now let's bleed off some speed and really NAIL THAT FLARE the way we've been practicing to do since our first day on the training and every flight since. Even if a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place DOESN'T suddenly open up in front of us on this one we can never stop honing our skills.

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What are you doing, Mike? It looks like you're just slowing it and gently RUNNING IT to a gradual stop. C'mon Mike...

http://forum.hanggliding.org/download/file.php?id=18967
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POP that sucker!

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Coward. Girl. Faggot.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=26854
Skids versus wheels
Andrew Stakhov - 2012/08/11 13:52:35 UTC

So I just came back from flying in Austria (awesome place btw). Stark difference I noticed is a large chunk of pilots choose to fly with skids instead of wheels. Conversations I had with pilots they say they actually work better in certain situations as they don't get plugged up like smaller wheels. Even larger heavier Atosses were all flying with skids. I was curious why they consistently chose to land on skids on those expensive machines and they were saying that it's just not worth the risk of a mistimed flare or wing hitting the ground... And those are all carbon frames etc.
Mike's partially running, partially skidding his glider in. He's skidding it in on the left end of his carbon speedbar and his left wingtip. The more motivated someone is not to crash his glider the less his landing is gonna look like the stupid bullshit he's been trained to do to land safely.

That's what REAL WORLD XC landings - and landing fields - tend to look like.

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miguel
Posts: 289
Joined: 2011/05/27 16:21:08 UTC

Re: landing

Post by miguel »

Wheels work well in some situations but they are not a panacea.

A prudent pilot should continually work at developing foot landing skills.
User avatar
Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: landing

Post by Tad Eareckson »

01. I actually didn't say anything about wheels in that one. Didn't use the word once.

02. I included Niki on this one not for the wheels but for the perfect, total, uninterrupted, uncompromised control she maintained - and always maintains when she's not trying to master the foot stuff - up to the point of touchdown.

03. NOTHING is a panacea. Passenger jets don't have much luck using wheels in narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place either. The difference between them and us is that they don't think they can safely pull it off using other techniques so they don't spend their time crashing their jets on runways practicing those techniques. They instead spend their time practicing landing on runways and not landing in narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place.

04. Prudent hang glider pilots do what Mike Barber does - which is exactly what prudent passenger jet pilots do.

05. Any hang glider pilot who lacks the skill to not land in narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place also lacks the skill to not land in whitewater rapids, forests, and powerlines even more and should never allow himself or be allowed by others to get within glide range of any of the above.

06. Saying that:
A prudent pilot should continually work at developing foot landing skills.
is precisely the same as saying that nobody can EVER develop foot landing skills to a level reliable enough to utilize in narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place. (Feel free to cite any exceptions that come to mind. (Please say Jason Boehm - I SO can't wait until that motherfucker snaps an arm in the Golden Happy Acres putting green.))

07. TRUE prudent pilots always execute the landing with the widest safety margin for the given situation. The prudent carrier pilots don't practice...

http://science.howstuffworks.com/aircraft-carrier4.htm
HowStuffWorks "The Tailhook and Landing on an Aircraft Carrier"
There are four parallel arresting wires, spaced about fifty feet apart, to expand the target area for the pilot. Pilots are aiming for the third wire, as it's the safest and most effective target. They never shoot for the first wire because it's dangerously close to the edge of deck. If they come in too low on the first wire, they could easily crash into the stern of the ship. It's acceptable to snag the second or fourth wire, but for a pilot to move up through the ranks, he or she has to be able to catch the third wire consistently.

http://s.hswstatic.com/gif/aircraft-carrier-6.jpg
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...hitting the first wire because some day the other three may be out of commission and the ocean may be boiling with Great White Sharks.

08. There is NOTHING of the slightest practical use in hang gliding that can't be dealt with totally effectively by a solid Hang 2.5. Anything that requires anything more can't be done safely and reliably by ANYONE - particularly hitting USHGA's bullshit nailing three consecutive Hang Four spots. If it's something that Threes, Fours, and Fives are continually work at developing - it's bullshit.

09. Name one other skill in hang gliding - hell, let's open it up to ANY flavor of aviation - that pilots are continually working at developing. Any fundamental skill in anything can be developed by the average pilot to the point at which he can pull things off in his sleep.

10. Even if continually work at developing foot landing skills WERE the prudent thing to do... Fuckit. Where is it written that my goal in hang gliding must be to become a prudent pilot? What if I just wanna have...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27415
Friday the 19th with Hawks & Friends!
NMERider - 2012/10/24 21:47:05 UTC

I have to say that landing on the wheels is so much fun it's not funny.
...as much fun as possible and don't really give a rat's ass if there's a one in three chance with each flight that I'm gonna snap my neck in a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place because I'm not continually work at developing foot landing skills?

What if I'm just the most imprudent, irresponsible, fun lovingest motherfucker you ever wanna meet? What if I just totally get my rocks off on...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27396
Scooter tow faillure... or Never Land On Your Face
Mitch Shipley - 2012/10/22 19:04:16 UTC

We engage in a sport that has risk and that is part of the attraction.
...risk. What if taking a one in three chance of killing myself on every flight is my crystal meth? Or my other crystal meth in addition to crystal meth?

Everybody else gets his rocks off on skipping hook-in checks, bent pin releases within easy reach, Rooney Links, tug drivers who can fix whatever's going on back there by giving them the rope, doing spot no-steppers in switchy air in narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place... How come I can't get my rocks off by coming into switchy air in narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place with no preparation whatsoever?

And what if I also get my rocks off getting other pilots and students to guzzle my Kool-Aid - the way Pagen, Trisa, Matt, Malcolm, Davis, Rooney get their rocks off telling everybody that it's only safe to tow on lines that dump them on their faces one out of three times? Unlike what they're doing there's no federal law against what I'm doing, right?
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Tad Eareckson
Posts: 9161
Joined: 2010/11/25 03:48:55 UTC

Re: landing

Post by Tad Eareckson »

Jump to next post:
http://www.kitestrings.org/post6389.html#p6389

http://blog.pe.com/breaking-news/2014/07/30/san-bernardino-crash-landing-slightly-hurts-hang-glider-pilot/
SAN BERNARDINO: Crash landing slightly hurts hang glider pilot
Richard Brooks - 2014/07/30

A hang glider pilot apparently suffered only cuts and bruises during a crash landing in the brush-covered hills near Cal State San Bernardino, say city fire department paramedics.

The accident happened at 5:18 p.m. Wednesday, July 30, about a half-mile east of Andy Jackson Air Park, a popular hang gliding and paragliding facility in north San Bernardino.

The pilot was visiting from Arizona and appeared to be in his 50s, said Capt. Jason Serrano.

Though he suffered no major injuries, the man crashed in a rugged area, prompting paramedics to summon a sheriff's rescue helicopter that picked up the man and flew him to the air park.

As a precaution, an ambulance crew drove the man to a hospital for a thorough examination.

Paramedics walk toward a sheriff's helicopter that rescued a hang glider pilot after a crash landing near Cal State San Bernardino. COURTESY SAN BERNARDINO FIRE DEPARTMENT

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Nice LZ...

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...ain't it guys? That's where we practice our brush covered hills / rugged areas landings.

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24 fps
Paramedics roll a hang gliding pilot toward a rescue helicopter on Wednesday, May 30, 2014, after he crash landed about a half-mile east of Andy Jackson Air Park in San Bernardino. (CONTRIBUTED IMAGE)

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July actually.

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