I've created this new topic and relocated relevant posts from their original topics. The first was from "Releases", the following nineteen from "instructors and other qualified pilot fiends".
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PETER HOLLOWAY
ON AEROTOWING
RideTheSpiral.net
Everything Hang Gliding
Peter Holloway is the owner operator of Freedom Airsports in Victoria, Australia.
Peter is a HGFA instructor and at the time of this film...
Two days after pro toad tandem aerotow instructor Zack Marzec was tumbled back onto the Quest runway right after the focal point of his safe towing system increased the safety of the towing operation. Did you hear about that one?
...Peter is also the senior safety officer for the Melbourne hang gliding club.
The SENIOR safety officer for the Melbourne Hang Gliding Club? Wow! So who are the junior safety officers for the Melbourne Hang Gliding Club? How many do you have to do this very demanding job? Can you recommend someone not as good as Peter but not at the bottom of the stack I can go to in case I'd prefer to just get mediocre advice?
Did any of your junior safety officers have anything to contribute to any of the Zack Marzec discussions? I'm guessing the reason we never heard anything from you was because you felt something that trivial just wasn't worth any of your valuable time and would've been beneath your dignity.
This film is a recording of Peter giving a pre flight briefing to a group of pilots about to aero tow for the first time.
This film is not intended as an instructional film.
So what IS it intended as? What:
- total crap are we hearing that we wouldn't
- vital information is being omitted that we'd get
if this WERE intended as an instructional film?
When you're behind the Dragonfly your whole world is focused on the Dragonfly.
...one hundred percent of the time - its safety, convenience, authority, revenue earning capability, ability to dictate hang gliding policy. (Isn't there supposed to be a glider somewhere back there behind Bebo? Or did the standard aerotow weak link already increase the safety of the towing operation - for the Dragonfly?)
The second rule is if you are uncomfortable at any time you hit the release.
Sure Peter. Whenever I'm feeling uncomfortable on a glider my first instinct is to take a hand off the control bar...
If you think you are not doing well, if you feel unsure of what's going on, do not like the air...
But, what the hell. That's just for when I'm feeling uncomfortable, think I'm not doing well, feeling unsure of what's going on, don't like the air. It's not like my life could possibly be dependent upon maintaining max control of the glider and blowing two or three hundred pounds of lethally misaligned tension in a fraction of a second.
But then again... If this is really isn't that big a fuckin' deal, just about our comfort levels when everything is pretty much normal, why is this the Second Rule - right behind staying level behind the tug? Do any of these aerotows ever become so dangerous that even highly qualified and experienced aerotow professionals have zero chance of surviving them? If so then what about these first timers? Have you got everything optimized as best as possible...
Right there (I think) is the main issue...some pilots think they can fix a bad thing and don't want to start over.
...I think I can fix a bad thing and don't want to start over? I guess if something bad happens it'll be because I wasn't really paying attention during the briefing. No evidence that the pilot made an attempt to release from tow prior to the weak link break. Gate was found closed on the Wallaby-style tow release.
So that's whilst you're in the air.
But it's basically the same as when you're on the cart. So practice reaching for the lanyard a few times so's you'll be able to do it reliably and effectively in the air.
We would've taught you that in the tandems.
In smooth air at two thousand feet with the glider straight and level and four hands available to take care of things. But this way we can say that we trained and equipped you properly and you have no fuckin' clue what went wrong. Forgot all his training. Just froze.
When you are hanging onto this sucker, this is part of you. This is your undercarriage.
So you could get screaming down the runway, almost taking off, and the tug could have an engine failure or the rope would break and you could roll to a stop hanging onto this quite safely.
So those are the primary failures you have with gliders on takeoff - engine failures and rope breaks? Can you cite me a single instance from the entire history of aerotowing in which the rope broke?
And that's what I want you to get into your mind.
What? That the greatest dangers on aerotow launches are engine failures and rope breaks?
This is your wheels. This is your legs if you like. They're better than legs 'cause... You'll roll a lot faster.
OH! They're BETTER than legs! So wouldn't it also be a lot better for people to LAND on wheels as well?
So what happens after you've gotten screaming down the runway, right after taking off, and the tug has an engine failure or the "rope" breaks?
I'm guessing you won't be able to roll to a stop quite AS safely. So I'd probably be better off if the tug didn't have an engine failure or the "rope" didn't break. Right?
It's more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.
...making more of this crappy argument that tugs not having engine failures and rope breaks is somehow safer than having engine failures and rope breaks. Has anybody ever vouched for the keenness of your intellect?
The first mistake they will make is... They're on the dolly, they're rushing down the runway, things are going bump bump bump bump bump, and they go I wanna get outta here, so they push out of the dolly too early - they're going too slow.
Now, what happens when you fly a hang glider too slow? Yeah, it stalls.
As forum moderator, I try to read every post on the forum. I know Tad has long pushed the "strong weak link" idea, and I'm glad to see the other side of the argument being presented.
I also like that this discussion emphasizes that breaking a weak link is something that can be practiced - just like we practice stalls - so we understand how to handle them and to not be afraid of them. I had a terrifying stall experience with my instructor when I was learning to fly airplanes back in the 70s. For a long time I feared getting close to stall. As long as I feared stalls, I was not spending much time getting comfortable with them, and that didn't make me a better pilot. So there's a lot to be said for safely learning to handle the inevitable rather than trying to come up with some way to avoid the inevitable.
Nice job Bill !!!!
Stalls are nothing to be feared. You just need to spend time getting comfortable with them. Then you become a better pilot.
Yeah, so you could come out of the dolly and you're stalled...
Yes.
you are going to crash.
BULLSHIT. Only if you're not a very good pilot. And in that case, who gives a flying fuck?
There is no mistake, you will crash.
Rubbish. It's just like a weak link break. A mere inconvenience.
When you lose this coforce you have to adjust the angle of attack, gain speed down... So what you have to do is establish an angle of attack such that when you're going down... Then you wait, gain some speed and if you're right down on the ground a little bit you push out and... But you have to... gain your speed - even if you're very close to the ground - push out and land.
You guys HAVE heard of Mitch Shipley, Russell Brown, Paul and Lauren Tjaden, Quest Air down there haven't you?
The Wallaby Ranch Aerotowing Primer for Experienced Pilots - 2014/06/21
The pilot fails to anticipate the tug's quick climb-out after launch, gets low, and then doesn't push out far enough to climb up. Remember: it is almost impossible to stall under aerotow. The induced thrust vector makes the glider trim at a higher attitude. It is OK to push way out; you will climb, not stall.
Should you find yourself low behind the tug, you may need to actually push out on the control bar forcefully, resulting in a "past normal" bar position, that in non-towing situations would lead to a stall. However, because of the "pull" of the tow line, this action will result in a CLIMB, and not a stall. Stay with the tug using pitch input. If you are low, PUSH OUT!
You MUST'VE heard of WALLABY. Place is named after one of those little kangaroo things you've got down there.
So what's the deal dude? Something to do with your backwards Coriolis effect?
Let's take a good look at that little video clip you just showed illustrating the danger of pushing out coming off the cart, getting high on the tug and slow, and stalling...
The Dragonfly - which has a higher takeoff speed than the glider - is off the ground now so we know that the glider's got plenty of speed. And the tug's above the horizon so we know the glider hasn't pushed out prematurely/excessively to get airborne. Glider's level...
So what strength tow rope are you using? Looks to me like the glider was in pretty good shape and the tension was totally normal. How often do you inspect the tow rope for wear? Which happens more frequently - engine failures or tow rope breaks?
Oh well, we have it down - a bit crooked but at least we got it back on the runway side of the ditch.
Looks like Bebo's still in great shape. That's a big relief! Does he have a spare tow rope or will he hafta recover and repair that one before pulling the next glider? I certainly hope that if he's got a spare it's in better shape than that one! That looked dangerous to me! Almost as dangerous as being on tow.
Say, here in the US we put a weak link at the glider end so we don't break the tow rope itself. Did you guys ever consider doing something like that?
You're the one advocating change here, not me.
I'm fine.
These are only questions if you're advocating change. Which I'm not. You are.
You're the one speculating on Zack's death... not me.
Hell, you've even already come to your conclusions... you've made up your mind and you "know" what happened and what to do about.
It's disgusting and you need to stop.
You weren't there. You don't know.
All you have is the tug pilot report, who himself says he doesn't know... and HE WAS THERE... and he doesn't know.
Seems to be a bit more confusion about some of those issues at this end of the planet. I think we're all on the same page about engine failures and tow rope breaks being bad things but in Zack Marzec's case the tug and the tow rope were fine and the Rooney Link, which you guys have apparently never heard about, increased the safety of the towing operation - exactly as it was designed to. Any ideas to maybe help us out a bit?
And I will show you, when you're on the dolly where your bar should be.
He has the bar WAY the fuck back from that just coming off the dolly!
So if you're hanging on the dolly and your bar's out like that, and you're gonna try to fly like that... If you were flying like that in free flight what would happen to your glider? You're pushing out. You're gonna stall. OK. So if you come out of the dolly like that, no brainer, you're gonna stall.
Wait a minute... I'm getting really confused now.
- Zack, we can see and everyone agrees, had the bar way the fuck back the whole tow - 'specially at its very end. And the Rooney Link broke, as it was designed to, to prevent a stall. But with all that going for him he still, everyone agrees, had one helluva whipstall.
- Your guy was obviously fast. Never even got quite up to tug level...
...and was almost certainly holding the bar a good bit back from where you're showing us. But then when his tow rope broke - the equivalent of a tug engine failure - he stalled and had a bit of a rough emergency landing.
holding the bar as far back as he can get it to just stay level with the tug on takeoff - before even having to deal with any unpleasant air. And that's at Hazelwood in South Australia - your next door neighbor practically. So it can't have anything to do with the Coriolis effect.
Just how keen of an intellect do you really need to properly understand all this stuff? Sure seems to be way the fuck out of MY league.
So if you're hanging on the dolly and your bar's out like that...
....and you go and try to fly like that, if you were flying like that in free flight what would happen to your glider? You're pushing out. You're gonna stall. OK. So if you come out of the dolly like that... No brainer. You're gonna stall.
So what I suggest you do is you think about your own particular wing... When you're flying at best glide speed... Where's the bar on your glider? About there?
Oh look! He has a little string going up to a point on the keel three feet in front of his hang point. Neither Zack Marzec nor Steve Blenkinsop seem to have their gliders rigged that way. Do you think that might have some bearing on the issue of bar position? Maybe it was a factor in what went wrong with Zack's flight?
So you know if you come off this dolly and you start don't start flying, your glider will be flying at best glide speed. When you're towing you actually hafta go a bit faster than that but you're not gonna stall, that's the main thing.
Ya know, Peter... I'm not really seeing him take off like that. I'm seeing him doing a pretty good job of holding the bar back / keeping his weight forward. Notice that:
So how come he hasn't released by this point. You DID remember to tell him to do that if for any reason he started feeling uncomfortable with the tow, right? Thinks he's not doing well, feels unsure of what's going on, doesn't like the air...
Maybe he just thinks he can fix a bad thing and doesn't want to start over? Not a good idea. There've been a lot of really ugly crashes resulting from that mindset. In fact they've all been so ugly that nobody's ever been able to confirm that he just thought he could fix a bad thing and didn't want to start over.
What story did this guy give you when you debriefed him?
Ya know... Here in the States everybody uses a standard aerotow weak link - 130 pound Cortland Greenspot braided Dacron trolling line. Works great to prevent lockouts like that. Huge track record. Quite literally hundreds of thousands of tows. And if it breaks at the worst possible time - with the glider climbing hard in a near stall situation - it's a mere inconvenience. Nothing like those nasty engine failures and tow rope breaks you guys are always dealing with.
And NOW he stalls. You really outta look into these standard aerotow weak links everybody uses over here. Talk to Davis Dead-On Straub or, better yet, Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney.
So how'd he do on his next tow? Did he promise to hit the release if he started feeling uncomfortable? And to start feeling uncomfortable a whole lot sooner?
So, first rule, or first mistake, people come out of the dolly too early. I want to see the dolly lift off the ground and physically get dropped from about ten or twenty centimeters. I want to see it bounce.
doesn't do that? He just shoves the bar all the way out to get airborne with no speed?
The second rule is when people come out of the dolly, the glider starts flying and they go whoooa - right up into the sky. I want you to perch right up at five meters for me. Because you're going to fly faster - or earlier...
No, you were right the first time. Behind a 914 the glider can get up to Mach 5 before it comes off the cart. Then the Rooney Link gets vaporized to save the glider from having its wings torn off with the shock of slamming into the propwash.
Any chance you can show us a video clip of that actually happening 'stead of just showing us with your hands?
...and Bebo will give you the rope - right before he potentially crashes. You can actually make Bebo crash. If you go up too high.
'Cause I hear about this major threat to the tug all the freakin' time but I've yet to ever hear of an actual occurrence of this at any altitude. How 'bout just a quote from a tuggie who had to dump a glider 'cause it was nosing him down?
In aerotowing you move the bar wherever it needs to be to keep the tug on the horizon. You might need to make some very deep pitch inputs in rough air.
situation in totally smooth air? He's making as very deep a negative pitch input as is physically possible constantly just to keep level with the tug. What's the plan if he gets blasted up by a thermal? Isn't that gonna leave him standing on his tail with his hands still in stuffed/trim position? What happens to him if the tow rope breaks at that point?
And what about Bebo? If the bar's already fully stuffed before he gets blasted up how's he gonna make sure he won't be nosing Bebo back into the runway? Wouldn't that significantly lower...
Here's the other thing missing from this conversation, and it's not a quick soundbite one.
There is more to the bar than simply strength.
See we've got a system that has an extremely solid track record. It's a high bar and you can't improve one aspect at the expense of an other. (you don't get to lower my safety margins for any reason)
...Bebo's safety margins? Wouldn't Bebo be forced to give him the rope? Wouldn't that have the exact same negative effect as a rope break?
And, speaking of safety margins... What's up with this guy?:
Sure, Davis. Total, obvious, undeniable load o' crap - 'cept for the disclaimer:
This film is not intended as an instructional film.
with which it opens up - and you give it a plug and title your post "Instruction".
Tom Lyon - 2013/03/13 05:29:52 UTC
As a low-time...
...low IQ...
...student...
...clone...
...pilot...
...driver...
...who hasn't yet towed solo...
...but who HAS towed tandem and is thus really well checked out on weak link pop recovery and staying inside of the Cone of Safety...
...I really liked this video.
I never had the slightest fucking doubt that you would.
Are there any concerns with what he's saying?
On the Davis, Jack, Bob, Greblo Shows? Get real.
I don't have enough experience to know, but I thought that all of his advice was excellent.
Me too! So if it was excellent, how did it vary from the crap you've:
- been fed in your tandem training
- read in:
-- Donnell Hewett's Skyting Criteria
-- the excellent book, Towing Aloft, by Dennis Pagen and Bill Bryden
-- Hang Gliding For Beginner Pilots - Peter Cheney / Matt Taber / USHGA
-- Dr. Trisa Tilletti's "Higher Education" series of magazine articles
-- Wallaby Ranch's "Aerotow Primer for Experienced Pilots"
-- the extensive forum posts of Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney and Ryan Instant-Hands-Free-Release Voight
-- Davis Dead-On Straub's AT competition dictates
What was it you found that was so subtle, nuanced, detailed, complex, original that it hadn't been covered elsewhere before just as well? Why was there a need for it after the fucking geniuses at Quest had spent twenty years perfecting aerotowing? What did this guy fix or pick up that all those guys had missed?
I'm definitely adding something to the Tin Cup for posting this video. Thanks, Davis!
Fuck you, Jackie.
The release assembly is different than what we regularly use here in the US, right?
- That's because the shit doesn't work in reality. If it did everybody would be using it everywhere already. (You might think that the fact that not everybody uses US Flight Park Mafia equipment would mean that that shit doesn't work in reality either - but you'd be wrong.)
- It's pretty much the same as the cheap useless crap that...
I know about this type of accident because it happened to me, breaking 4 ribs and my larynx... and I was aerotowing using a dolly. The sh*t happened so fast there was no room for thought much less action. But I wasn't dragged because the weaklink did its job and broke immediately on impact.
Imagine if you will, just coming off the cart and center punching a thermal which takes you instantly straight up while the tug is still on the ground. Know what happens? VERY high towline forces and an over-the-top lockout. You'll have both hands on the basetube pulling it well past your knees but the glider doesn't come down and still the weaklink doesn't break (.8G). So you pull whatever release you have but the one hand still on the basetube isn't enough to hold the nose down and you pop up and over into an unplanned semi-loop. Been there, done that... at maybe 200 feet agl.
...that Peter Birren "flies" with and gets safety awards for.
I was looking for the bicycle handle and spinnaker release...
Some aerotow releases, including a few models from prominent schools, have had problems releasing under high tensions. You must VERIFY through tests that a release will work for the tensions that could possibly be encountered. You better figure at least three hundred pounds to be modestly confident.
Maybe eight to ten years ago I got several comments from people saying a popular aerotow release (with a bicycle type brake lever) would fail to release at higher tensions. I called and talked to the producer sharing the people's experiences and concerns. I inquired to what tension their releases were tested but he refused to say, just aggressively stated they never had any problems with their releases, they were fine, goodbye, click. Another person tested one and found it started getting really hard to actuate in the range of only eighty to a hundred pounds as I vaguely recall. I noticed they did modify their design but I don't know if they ever really did any engineering tests on it. You should test the release yourself or have someone you trust do it. There is only one aerotow release manufacturer whose product I'd have reasonable confidence in without verifying it myself, the Wallaby release is not it.
When you're behind the Dragonfly your whole world is focused on the Dragonfly.
And, of course, he didn't say:
When you're not behind the Dragonfly your whole world isn't focused on the Dragonfly.
So you and that plane we bought you and its tow mast breakaway protector are the constant centers of the universe. I'll bet you had to call your physician about the erection you got which lasted more than four hours after hearing that one.
- brain the size of a walnut
- incompetent
- liar
- Rooney Linker
- sorriest excuse for a release I've seen in my entire life
- zero ability to release - big surprise - in the lockout we see resulting from his excellent instruction
- totally fucking clueless as to what's going on with his students and their flights
- never in his entire miserable existence contributed anything positive to an incident discussion
- cool Aussie accent like the one you're always pretending you were born with
Real straight forward and drives home the things that actually matter.
Yes. Never before have I watched anyone spend thirteen and a half minutes telling people to stay in the middle of the Cone of Safety so succinctly - not above or below, to the left or right of the tug but right behind it. It was 13:29 mark that it really started sinking in for me. That student of his who locked out and, for the purpose of the exercise, killed himself must've nodded off before the end.
Bloody good.
Oh! I just love your affected Aussie accent! That is just so cool! Can I go to bed with you?
Yeah, it's pretty freakin' easy to be bloody good...
...doing it. Good pilots can feel when they've got safe airspeed - same way they can when they're running on training hills - and ease the bar out. And you better be a good pilot if you're on a dolly solo.
This cart wheelie crap is total bullshit. It's just a crutch incompetent flight parkies use to help them feel less nervous about putting unqualified students up by themselves. If you need to wheelie a cart to ascertain that you've got safe airspeed then what are ya gonna do...
32-1826
...on the other end of the flight?
But yeah, behind 582s, go for it.
Yeah, sure, go for it. What's the worst that could happen?
In the first of those frames that guy has lifted out of the basetube cradle. He's just dragging the cart behind him. The cart's a total liability at this point - he can't safely settle back into it and if the tow rope breaks...
Ok, as long as we're digging this deeply into it....
It is not merely a matter of inconvenience. I was there, and in my oppinion Steve came rather close to breaking his legs. I was getting ready to dial 911.
Sure, being on tow at the wrong time is an extremely bad thing. But don't tell us that being off tow at the wrong time is all sweet and wonderful. Yes, we prepare for it, but that doesn't make it a safe situation. It makes it a manageable situation. There are times where it's better to be on tow than off tow. Ask anyone that's dragged a dolly into the air.
Yes, your tow system failed... it didn't fail to release, it failed to work. Did it fail more safely than a lockout? Yes. But don't tell me that thing worked. You found an unforseen error. That's the problem... unforseen. You don't know what else is waiting for you. Oh, let me rephrase that more accurately, Steve found an unforseen error for you.
So far I've only had negative experiences with weak links. One broke while aerotowing just as I was coming off the cart. Flared immediately and put my feet down only to find the cart still directly below me. My leg went through the two front parallel bars forcing me to let the glider drop onto the control frame in order to prevent my leg from being snapped. Fortunately, I fly with solid wheels on the glider, so me, the glider, and the dolly all rolled safely to a stop with no damage to anyone or anything. All other weak link breaks have been during boat towing, and were uneventful and unwarranted.
But Peter's told him:
So, first rule, or first mistake, people come out of the dolly too early. I want to see the dolly lift off the ground and physically get dropped from about ten or twenty centimeters. I want to see it bounce.
So, goddammit, we're gonna make that sucker BOUNCE - but GOOD!
So let's take it five feet into the air while we're going like a bat outta hell with the fuckin' tug way above us, bounce the crap out of it, and then immediately fly into lockout 'cause the object of the exercise was not to pull off a safe launch but to satisfy the Melbourne Hang Gliding Club's Senior Safety Officer's cart bounce directive. And, of course, this is the example that shithead uses to illustrate what happens when you DON'T pull a wheelie.
You can see a milder version of the same thing at 12:43 on the video...
Two wheelies, fifty percent success rate. All other launches are smooth, fast, and fine - including the one that he uses to illustrate how just shoving the bar out to get off the cart can result in a tow rope break.
Eight launches, 75 percent of the total and 86 percent of the successful clear when the dolly's flat on the runway.
Yeah, Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney, I can see why you've really got the hots for this asshole. Just blather's on with the same bullshit clichés he and everyone else have been using for decades - never once caring about:
- whether or not they have any foundation in reality
- seeing what's going on with actual gliders in actual air
- what happens to people who fail to unlearn this kinda crap soon enough
Real straight forward and drives home the things that actually matter.
Bloody good.
Jackie... one thing to note, and it's a bit of a nit picky thing so don't pay it too much mind cuz this guy is spot on!
The "lift the cart into the air" is a 582 tug thing. It doesn't work so well behind 914s. But yeah, behind 582s, go for it.
582 - Ridgely, Maryland - April - 60 degrees - 25 percent relative humidity - twelve mile per hour headwind - Karen Carra (200 pounds)
914 - Greeley, Colorado - August - 95 degrees - 90 percent relative humidity - three mile per hour tailwind - Joe Schmucker (400 pounds)
Which tug is more powerful?
This is a total load of crap that there are different acceptable/recommended launch techniques and speeds for different tow vehicles.
You will only ever need full throttle for the first fifty feet of a tandem tow. Don't ever pull a solo at full throttle... they will not be able to climb with you. You can tow them at 28 mph and you'll still leave them in the dust... they just won't be able to climb with you... weaklinks will go left and right.
You just need to do everything you possibly can to protect your Rooney Links and you're just never gonna get tired of taking opportunities to remind everybody what an expert you are on everything aerotowing and what a cool guy you are 'cause you fly a little plane with a big engine.
You always wanted to be Tom Cruise but you need to be able to handle grade school arithmetic to get a shot at birds like those so you found your niche in the Flight Park Mafia Dragonfly cult.
It doesn't work so well behind 914s.
Why not? Surely you're not gonna miss another opportunity to tell all us muppets how the Rooney Links will go left and right. Maybe the problem is that just eight hours ago Davis had to lock down all the Zack Marzec threads so's you assholes wouldn't get demolished any more than you already had been and to allow you to declare victory and leave?
on satisfying the cart wheelie/bounce requirement than you are at getting the glider airborne at a crisp takeoff speed.
