Surface tow, foot launch release opinions.

[llwest@comcast.net]

What do you idea guys think would be the "ideal" release for surface towing. I've read up on the aerotow threads, but I am doing the surface tow thing here in Albuquerque and so far, we have one advanced instructor using a three string (L/D) release to his hewett 2:1 bridle and me using my linknife and so far (maybe 20 tows), they both worked every time, but...... They both seem to be un-trustworthy without line tension, and they both require taking a hand off the base tube (although only for a moment, but a moment may be too long).
I know Peter B. has had a really good history and that was one of the factors that led me to the linknife, but.....is there something I could develop for surface towing and foot launching that would mirror your aerotow hand-never-leaves-the control-frame design?
I sort of think we've been lucky so far and would like to figure out "a better way". We've talked about squibs and line cutters, but they have failure modes too.

[Tad Eareckson]

..foot launch release opinions.

DON'T!!!

We've discussed this before but I'd stay the hell away from foot launch towing unless there's a real good reason not to. Rolling launches take ninety percent of the ways to kill yourself towing mostly or completely off the table.

The only two good excuses for it are that the terrain is unsuitable or you're trying to teach foot launching in preparation for the slopes.

If the latter, I would be inclined to use the scooter model and keep people low and not give them enough speed and altitude to get too creative.

...we have one advanced instructor using a three string (L/D) release to his hewett 2:1 bridle and me using my linknife...

I don't know what "(L/D)" means with respect to a release, but it sounds like it's at the apex of the bridle? What's the lanyard running to? Wrist? Shoulder?

The Hewett/2:1 bridle is a tangle of junk that solves a completely imaginary problem. It was Donnell's approach to approximating the ideal implementation of his "Skyting" "theory" of hang glider towing. The problem was that he had no clue what he was talking about. His neat little vector diagrams were based on bogus assumptions and the glider will actually do the precise opposite of what he and they predict in some cases.

A two point (pilot and glider) one to one aerotow bridle/release system will do everything worth mentioning that a two to one will without all the crap. AT operations have been demonstrating that very well, thank you, for decades.

If the tow angles are staying low you can use AT equipment. If you had a smooth headwind and/or a couple of extra people for the sidewires the pilot could start with his hands on the basetube and leave them there.

Joe Street - racingthecloudsatgmaildotcom - is currently gearing up to offer a really excellent, simple, cheap two point AT release. If you're planning on getting something else - don't.

If your tow angles are going from low to high then a Koch two stage is the only sane answer unless you wanna get creative yourself. (Note that our microscopic little forum was very recently highly honored with the addition of Mike Lake. His designs about 29 years ago were the predecessors of the Koch.) You're still stuck with having to take a hand off but it's the least odious of the category. It's not ideal but I don't think there's much in its quarter century history that indicates people getting in trouble in real life. Maybe Mike can bring us better up to speed.

...and so far (maybe 20 tows), they both worked every time...

Twenty, two hundred, twenty thousand... Meaningless. Maybe it tells you what you can probably get away with but NOTHING about how safe it is. Your gut's telling you that right now 'cause it's already plugged the configuration into a worst case scenario equation and doesn't like what came out.

They both seem to be un-trustworthy without line tension...

I'd take one of my barrel releases over either one of them but if you wanna take care of that problem properly check out what bisleybob is saying at:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21033
barrels release without any tension except weight of rope..

He and Adi are the ones you wanna be listening to over there and deltaman's got his head pointed in the right direction.

...and they both require taking a hand off the base tube (although only for a moment, but a moment may be too long).

Can be and frequently has been an eternity - literally.

I know Peter B. has had a really good history...

No. He's got a lousy history. He has personally has managed to half kill himself on a blown AT dolly launch that I suspect wouldn't have happened on the cheap two point release we were using in 1991 and he put himself in a very dangerous situation immediately off the cart another time because of his blind faith in and commitment to Donnell's one-hand-is-as-good-as-or-possibly-better-than-two approach to hang gliding. I don't know what kind of volume he does on his turf but I doubt that a decade's worth of it exceeds what a major AT park turns over on a good weekend.

...and that was one of the factors that led me to the linknife...

The Linknife is way overrated. Hang gliding has never had much of a problem with the mechanism itself - even with inappropriate stuff like the spinnaker shackle or insane stuff like Bobby's ubiquitous bent pin barrel release. The problems are that they're rigged and configured by idiots who make them inoperable and inaccessible. I'd take a spinnaker shackle over a Linknife any day 'cause it can be made a hundred percent reliable, can't be disabled by a few stems of dead grass, and just wears the weak link each time instead of totally annihilating it. I don't think you're ever gonna see a Linknife at a high volume AT operation and, if you did and it was configured the way Peter does at the apex of a closed bridle, I'd predict that you'd see failures.

I'll give him that it's a reasonably clever idea and it's pretty cool that the greater the tension the more effective it is but we don't have to deal with high tensions in hang glider towing. People get killed at 70 to 250 pounds just fine. We can do anything we need to with no more than 350 pounds going to a release and as cheap or cheaper with barrel releases.

...is there something I could develop for surface towing and foot launching that would mirror your aerotow hand-never-leaves-the control-frame design?

Foot launching - except as I mentioned above - pretty much means you're shifting your hands from the downtubes to the basetubes and that makes the solution a real pain. And going from low to high tow angle also makes the solution a real pain. I'd be thinking of a bite controlled switch running to a solenoid controlled Koch spinoff which retains the manual option.

We could do it easily enough but we choose to put all of our engineering and bucks into parachutes, racing pods, and instruments.

We've talked about squibs and line cutters, but they have failure modes too.

If you have something that's well and responsibly engineered, maintained, and checked... Statistically it's never gonna kill anyone.

Something that fails one in ten thousand times is a piece of crap. It would never be tolerated out in the real world in cars or planes 'cause with that kind of volume there'd be an intolerable bloodbath.

But let's say that one in ten thousand tows you WILL have an equipment failure. And let's say that one in ten thousand tows you have something unavoidable and nasty happen to you within striking distance of the ground - which, I'd estimate, is pretty generous. You've gotta line the two problems up to get killed and that means you've gotta do a hundred million tows to knock somebody off - and with a little luck it'll be Jim Rooney. We've still got way bigger problems with a twenty minute drive to get back home.

Summary...

If your drivers and pilots are halfway competent and people are careful and have enough streamers around I think you can probably function on a Koch indefinitely without bending or breaking anyone.

[Zack C]

One of the guys in our club (one of the few that actually realize taking a hand off the bar to release is a very bad thing) developed a variant on the spinnaker cable release. It's used in a single-point configuration with the release entirely on the pilot. A loop runs around a finger and is attached to the cable which runs up his arm, to his harness, and to the release. To release, he flexes his wrist. He's used it for dolly launch aerotowing for a while and I'm not aware of any issues with it.

He tried foot launch aerotowing with it twice last weekend (long story at to why) and both times released prematurely when transitioning to the basetube. He's going to try to work that out. I'm very interested in seeing if he succeeds. Having to taking a hand off the bar to release is the main issue I have with foot launch towing.

I don't know what "(L/D)" means with respect to a release...

L/D is the brand. It's the kind of three-string I have (the non-Mason one, the one I referenced in this post).

If your tow angles are going from low to high then a Koch two stage is the only sane answer unless you wanna get creative yourself.

I've towed in this situation using a V bridle (routed under the basetube) without issue.

We have two pilots using Koch releases in our club. On multiple occasions I've seen the second stage release hit inadvertently instead of the first stage, causing the tow to terminate prematurely. I've also seen the weak link break after the first stage release, but I don't think this will be an issue with a sane weak link. I don't really see either of these occurrences causing a safety issue (as I don't see a pilot wanting to trip just the first stage in an emergency), but they're potential drawbacks to consider.

Zack

[llwest@comcast.net]

The only two good excuses for it are that the terrain is unsuitable or you're trying to teach foot launching in preparation for the slopes.

Yep. That's our situation. The road is loose gravel with berms on either side. We have a cart we're going to experiment with, but controlling it on the surface we have and dealing with it after it rolls in to the pinons and the wing drifting in to a berm on cart (as it is harder to bump the cart back on course on this surface) are all concerns. It still may be better than the consequences of a bungled foot launch, but we haven't tried it yet.

...and just wears the weak link each time instead of totally annihilating it.

That was attractive to me as the links are cheap, we don't have many of us wanting to tow here so turnaround time isn't an issue, and that way we don't wonder what force will break the link on sequential tows.

They do break at a lower and lower values the more times we tow on one. The ones I use (we buy 200's, 250's, 300's, and 400's so we have a range of links for different sized pilots and I use the 300's as that is about 1g for me and my wing) break at 300 on the first try and for three tows to 200 or so, but if taken to 300 once, will break at 240 the next time. We don't have very much data on any of this yet. We sat in the driveway breaking links with the truck one day to get "a feeling" for how consistent they were (Stu' towmeup links) and how they held up over multiple tows. Still collecting data to support a thesis (still haven't make a tester, but use the tension gauge on the truck to break a sample from each batch) .

...and it was configured the way Peter does at the apex of a closed bridle, I'd predict that you'd see failures.

Tell me more about this. He has me convinced that not threading is "better" than threading the bridle and the logic seems solid in that respect. When I was getting my AT rating with Bill Holmes in Arizona, he used a threading bridle and told me he had never had it snag, but I've read of them snagging and rationalized that if it is easy to remove the snagging bridle possibility, I should.

Yeah, our tow angles go from low to high and Mel (the advanced instructor working with me on getting this going here) has a Koch setup, but doesn't really like all that stuff on his chest. I haven't tried it yet as Peter pretty much had me convinced of the merits of the solutions he has been using and I hadn't seen any accident reports from his neck of the woods. I would like to hear about them now though.

The Hewett bridle does feel better to me (forces do seem to be more manageable when correcting on tow) than the waist only one I used back in the 90's platform launching (and that I still use when scooter towing at the park in the Condor. I'm trying to follow in Steve Wendt and Pat Denevan's steps in that regards), but all that "stuff" on me and in front of me does concern me. I've only used it 10 or so times since I got it from Peter, and it felt good, but if I can achieve the same feel without the 2:1 setup, I would like to.

A two point (pilot and glider) one to one aerotow bridle/release system will do everything worth mentioning that a two to one will without all the crap. AT operations have been demonstrating that very well, thank you, for decades.

Convince me on this before I try it. I used the two point aerotowing (only aerotowed 20 or so times too and that was to get the rating. I have no depth of experience in AT to apply to this), but with the tow angles going from zero to 40 degrees, I dunno...

I keep imagining all the ways things will fail and, as we've discussed before, I'm a pessimist, but a pessimist that wants to fly in a hostile place as conveniently as I possibly can. I know there is no golden fleece that will protect me, but want to do the best I can with what I have around me here in the high desert. My most successful safety choice has always been "Doesn't feel right. Not going to do it." I was all set up on Saturday but didn't feel right with the crew we had, so didn't hook up to the line. Mel took a tow in to the rowdy air and got bounced around a bit, but he has a much higher threshold than I do.

Gregg Ludwig said he would come out and work with our little cadre this month or next and I want to get my ST administrator appointment from him (Dave Broyles and he are two closest ST supervisors to me) and I do want to teach other hangies how to tow as safely as we can here. New Mexico has a history full of surface towing hurt, but we also have a history of stoned pilots doing it. Wagner in Dakota and Peter seem to surface tow a good bit without hurt. I hope I can too.

Thanks again Tad. I am attracted to your analytical processes, even though you don't surface tow a lot. The mental exercise is good for me. I don't want to be maimed or dead and don't want to maim or kill anyone else, so we're being pretty cautious in all our pursuits here.

[Tad Eareckson]

Zack,

One of the guys in our club (one of the few that actually realize taking a hand off the bar to release is a very bad thing) developed a variant on the spinnaker cable release.

What's he doing with his teeth from launch to two hundred feet that's so important that he can't use them to bite or stop biting something?

Have him check out:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14221
Tad's release

Paul Farina's done a pretty good job along those lines.

He's used it for dolly launch aerotowing for a while and I'm not aware of any issues with it.

For one point dolly launching there are a lot cheaper easier simpler lighter cleaner better ways.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/sets/72057594141352219/detail

I've towed in this situation using a V bridle (routed under the basetube) without issue.

Lotsa folk have towed with Wallaby, Lookout, and Bailey releases lotsa times without issue. That don't make having the bottom half of your bridle pulling up on your basetube at launch a great idea.

On multiple occasions I've seen the second stage release hit inadvertently instead of the first stage, causing the tow to terminate prematurely.

I've seen people miss really huge fields in really easy range in really easy conditions. There's no great excuse for hitting the full dump / stage two paddle instead of the stage one 'cause when you're doing it there is, by definition and as you say, no shit hitting the fan. Take your time and do it carefully.

I've also seen the weak link break after the first stage release, but I don't think this will be an issue with a sane weak link.

Right.

Larry,

The road is loose gravel with berms on either side.

Ya go with what makes the most sense after a sane process of threat assessment. I'd say that foot over dolly in this environment is a no brainer. But is there something taking platform off the table or making it less desirable?

They do break at a lower and lower values the more times we tow on one.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=11497
Aerotow release options?

Adi Branch - 2009/07/02 12:50:02

From what I can gather the US has some quite different (dated?) ways of doing things which it appears are not used here in the UK, and some of the reasons I've heard cited for not using these methods relate directly to accidents in the US.

For instance, the idea of tying your own weak link is absolute nuts to me, as is using a bit of string for the job! Over here it's aluminium only (sailplane style link) and if I turned up with a bit of tied string, I'd be shown the exit road.

Use Tost weak links - with the reserve inserts. They're gonna maintain their ratings forever.

Tell me more about this.

Just sayin' that the more people you have configuring their systems such that the Linknife can get dragged while the glider's getting moved around and/or landing the more you're gonna see them clogged and disabled by dry grass. Yeah, you can write that off to pilot error in that they've failed to properly preflight the system but the system is introducing another element that can, has, AND WILL be screwed up.

And if you've got something that does the job just as well or better, isn't a heavy draggy piece of junk, doesn't cost an arm and a leg, and makes things more idiot resistant - you go with it. You don't do second best.

He has me convinced that not threading is "better" than threading the bridle and the logic seems solid in that respect.

Peter's an idiot. He swallowed Donnell's "Skyting Criteria" hook, line, and sinker and is concerned only with adhering to that collection of bogus assumptions regardless of where the real threats are coming from and how obviously deadly they are.

Everybody here and everybody with half a brain or better knows that it's a really bad idea to take a hand off the basetube in the course of a lockout. But here's what Donnell has to say on the issue:

Sometimes I am asked if a more conventional release mechanism would be preferred. Specifically one wonders whether it would be wiser to have a release lever right there by the pilot's hand rather than located on his abdomen. Well, yes, it is true that a conventional hand release would be quicker to release than a body release, but in a typical emergency situation, the pilot's hand release is seldom located at the right spot on the control bar to effectively initiate the release, and in a truly panic situation, it is much easier for a person to find a release on his own body than at some specific location on the control bar. Furthermore, it would seem that a single release on the body would be as easy to operate as the two separate releases on a conventional system. The body release also frees the pilot to move his hands anywhere over the control bar and to change from prone to erect flying or vice versa.

This is absolute lunacy. The safest way to tow a glider into the air is to put it on a dolly and start the pilot proned out with both hands on the basetube and his finger on the trigger of a release at the top end of a one to one two point bridle and use a weak link that won't ever blow.

And here's how, nearly thirty years later, Donnell's STILL trying to tow gliders into the air:

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=21649
Truck Towing Accident in South Texas

Gregg Ludwig - 2010/10/28 15:46:59

Here is another report from a student (H-0) that may shed some light on the methods of instruction used. This student weighs about 250 pounds and was using a glider too small for his first tow over asphalt as reported.

28th and 29th I will be up in Kingsville, at the Kleberg County Airport about 8 am. I will be training with the Doc. He will be having lessons there Saturday, depending on weather conditions. Will be towed up with a winch - this will be my first tow. Have just been doing foot launch, will get some airtime in on those days.

-

I had to stand like a post, and not move at all once the truck took off at 25 mph with one foot in front of the other, and I am still standing in the same place leaning back, with the payout feeding me line, and there is a strange feeling, odd feeling to being pulled by the payout.

Then I take the first step to the run, and I am now running 25 mph, I am thinking, oooOOOOH SHIT, hope I don't have to run that far, hoping the HG gets lift so I don't have to run no more... My F-A running down the runway like a rocket. There is no wind, I have the right angle of attack, the HG is up, but still not enough lift for the pilot.

I can't reach my CUT line 'cause I have both hands on the downtubes, and if I let go of the Coke bottle grip I will crash.

I feel like pushing the HG into the air, or jumping up so it can lift, but I do not - that would make my situation worse.

I feel I am about to fall into the asphalt face first and crash, I am at my run limit, and feel I can not take another step. Still the glider is not lifting me.

The winch operator lets go of the pressure of the payout winch, my run comes to a jog, and to a stop. I drop to my knees.

But that's OK. The "flight" is being conducted within the parameters of the Skyting Criteria so it is, obviously and by definition, SAFE.

And here's Peter's implementation:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/6726
Weaklinks

Peter Birren - 2008/10/27 23:41:49

Imagine if you will, just coming off the cart and center punching a thermal which takes you instantly straight up while the tug is still on the ground. Know what happens? VERY high towline forces and an over-the-top lockout. You'll have both hands on the basetube pulling it well past your knees but the glider doesn't come down and still the weaklink doesn't break (.8 G). So you pull whatever release you have but the one hand still on the basetube isn't enough to hold the nose down and you pop up and over into an unplanned semi-loop. Been there, done that... at maybe 200 feet agl.

This is also a safe tow because the unplanned semi-loop happened at maybe two hundred feet instead of maybe one hundred feet and THERE WAS NO POSSIBILITY OF A BRIDLE WRAP because he uses a CLOSED BRIDLE SYSTEM.

If he had slammed back into the runway headfirst at fifty miles per hour because he hadn't recovered from his unplanned semi-loop or his 0.8 G weak link had blown while he was standing on his tail it would have STILL been a safe tow because his release activation point was readily accessible and the system included a weak link which will infallibly and automatically release the glider from tow whenever the tow line tension exceeds the limit for safe operation - WELL UNDER the universally recognized limit of 1.0 Gs.

Yeah, the logic SEEMS solid but it's absolute rot cause:

1. The cost of using a closed bridle is that you throw a lot of crap into the air and eliminate any sane and easy means of implementing a finger-on-the-trigger release.

2. You can easily construct a bridle that's close to being physically incapable of wrapping.

3. You can configure a secondary weak link so that there's a near hundred percent certainty of it blowing on the severe jolt that you experience immediately following a wrap.

4. You can put a string in your teeth so that even if your bridle wraps after you trigger the release and the secondary weak link holds you can still be on base back to the launch line while some moron like Peter is doing an unplanned semi-loop while he's fumbling around trying to find the lanyard tied to his shoulder strap.

5. Even with all the cheap junk that these criminally negligent high volume flight parks are throwing in the air people aren't being creamed because their threading bridles wrap. And they do ZILLIONS of tows.

6. When people DO get creamed at these criminally negligent high volume flight parks it's almost invariable because they did or didn't take a hand off the basetube - damned if you do, damned if you don't aviation at its demonic best.

7. Bridles are most likely to wrap following high tension releases and there's very rarely much in the way of tension involved in really deadly lockout situations - contrary to the popular perception.

...Mel (the advanced instructor working with me on getting this going here) has a Koch setup, but doesn't really like all that stuff on his chest.

NOBODY really likes it. But it sure beats the crap out of leaving the runway in a body bag the way Shane did.

I haven't tried it yet as Peter pretty much had me convinced of the merits of the solutions he has been using...

Got any exorcists you'd feel comfortable working with for a week or two?

...and I hadn't seen any accident reports from his neck of the woods. I would like to hear about them now though.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/6726
Weaklinks

Peter Birren - 2008/10/27 23:41:49

I know about this type of accident because it happened to me, breaking four ribs and my larynx... and I was aerotowing using a dolly. The shit happened so fast there was no room for thought much less action. But I wasn't dragged because the weaklink did its job and broke immediately on impact.

That one work for ya?

And he's still too freakin' stupid to understand that:

1. The weak link has got one and only one job - and preventing dragging after a blown DOLLY launch ain't it.

2. If the weak link had HELD and he HAD been dragged he wouldn't have broken four ribs and his larynx 'cause that happened as a function of the instant stop and it was the weak link failure that permitted the instant stop.

The Hewett bridle does feel better to me (forces do seem to be more manageable when correcting on tow) than the waist only one I used back in the 90's platform launching (and that I still use when scooter towing at the park in the Condor.

What Donnell has failed to understand for all these decades is that ALL of the tow force is going to the glider at its hang point no matter what it is or isn't routed through on its way.

From the pilot's perspective two things are going on as a consequence of some portion of tension being routed through him and his suspension.

1. The more tension the heavier he's gonna feel. It's gonna take more muscle to move him X inches but those X inches are gonna result in more response from the glider. Just like putting on fat or taking on ballast.

2. If there's a major forward vector and everything's going through the pilot - à la one point aero - he's gonna pendulum forward (leave the glider behind a bit) such that when he stuffs the bar he's still a foot short of stuffing the bar. The lower the performance (glide ratio) of the glider the more pronounced this problem is gonna be.

In platform everything's going through the pilot - and he's thus very heavy - and he's trimmed properly with respect to the glider all the way up 'cause the tow angle is constant and mostly down.

The other extreme is one point aero. You're getting more climb per pound of tension 'cause it's pulling full forward / nothing down so it's more efficient and you can climb with less of it. You're heavier and you've gotta look down and back to find the basetube and you really don't wanna be in a Peter Birren rocket situation 'cause you can't stuff the bar very far to hold the nose down and ride out the thermal.

There are several ways to keep the pilot in proper trim position with respect to the control frame when you're pulling forward.

1. Donnell accidentally did this with all that two to one crap while he was trying to solve a nonexistent problem based on a bogus assumption. He put two thirds of the pull on the pilot and one third on the keel forward of the hang point. He thus reduced the pendulum force on the pilot and trimmed the glider faster.

2. At about the same time and totally independently Bill Brooks and Howard Edwards - of Mike Lake's crowd - accomplished almost the exact same thing, without all the deadly crap strung all over the place, simply by anchoring the bridle a third of the way up the suspension from the pilot to the glider. The pilot's "weight" and the trim we're almost exactly the same with the Brooks as with the Hewett Bridle.

3. A two point aerotow bridle evenly splits the tension between the pilot and glider. The pilot "weighs" not much more than he does in free flight and is better tuned into the control movements and response and you can perfectly trim the glider to the tug by moving the anchor point fore or aft on the keel. The lower the performance of the glider the farther fore the anchor point.

So yeah, the Hewett Bridle does "FEEL" pretty good 'cause it's pretty close to what you're used to in free flight. But it's totally useless in platform and totally unnecessary in aero and, looking at the entire duration of a surface tow with a constantly increasing tow angle, markedly inferior to a Koch two stage (or a Lake Bridle). And people just get used to the feels of the other configurations during a few easy training flights.

I'm trying to follow in Steve Wendt...

Bad idea. He killed 1.5 students within the space of a four month period 'cause he totally failed to adhere to USHGA rating and aerotowing requirements and pissed all over the efforts of two people - yours truly and Steve Kinsley - to hand him better technology on a silver platter. And neither one of us is happy about it. And nothing's changed in the half decade since.

...and Pat Denevan's steps in that regards...

The one that was fully killed would still be around if he had been Pat's student 'cause he's one of the few instructors who knows what a HOOK-IN CHECK is and understands the meaning of the words "JUST PRIOR TO LAUNCH". I don't know how he is on towing but if he's using a two to one bridle he needs at least a little work.

...but all that "stuff" on me and in front of me does concern me...

It's useless. Get rid of it. Work with the Koch.

Convince me on this before I try it.

See above.

And don't be afraid to TRY stuff - especially stuff that other people have been doing just fine for decades. Don't try it when it's blowing twenty, gusting thirty, and crossing sixty over asphalt - but TRY it.

I learned and taught on the dunes and we all got to be pretty solid, versatile pilots 'cause there was all kinds of crap we could try and get away with without hurting ourselves.

I keep imagining all the ways things will fail and, as we've discussed before, I'm a pessimist, but a pessimist that wants to fly in a hostile place as conveniently as I possibly can. I know there is no golden fleece that will protect me, but want to do the best I can with what I have around me here in the high desert.

TOTALLY with you on that.

My most successful safety choice has always been "Doesn't feel right. Not going to do it."

Not entirely with you on that. A LOT of people have ended up in really bad shape right after having felt just super about everything until being eight feet down the ramp and suddenly realizing why the glider was a little higher than what they're used to.

And sometimes there's no rational reason for us to be feeling uneasy about doing or trying something and we're better off for having gone ahead.

Gregg Ludwig said he would come out...

Gregg's reasonably good but he's not all there by any means and he never follows through on anything.

Dave Broyles and he are two closest ST supervisors to me...

Dave isn't a hundred percent but he's DAMN GOOD, is a major pioneer, and worthy of a lot of respect.

Wagner in Dakota and Peter seem to surface tow a good bit without hurt.

(Devin) Wagner - like Peter - has absolutely no clue what a weak link is and that makes him extremely dangerous. Ridgely has towed tens of thousands of people and I don't think anybody's been more than scratched at launch but they're extremely dangerous. You don't evaluate equipment, operations, and people by what HAS happened - you look at what CAN happen. And you can get a pretty good feel for what CAN and WILL EVENTUALLY happen by looking at what frequently happens at altitude where there are no consequences - the way Mike did when watching Todd hacking away at his bridle with a hook knife for three or four minutes several thousand feet over a dry Nevadan lake bed. Nobody's ever been hurt in hang gliding as a consequence of being pessimistic or underestimating his driver or fellow pilot.

I hope I can too.

I hope you do WAY better than Peter. I know a few people who've done worse but they're in a distinct minority.

I am attracted to your analytical processes, even though you don't surface tow a lot.

Thanks. I actually haven't surface towed or even been around it in sixteen and a half years. The good news is that nothing's changed since then. The bad news is that nothing's changed since then.

The fun thing about what I'm doing is that it's way more important to be able to read and do junior high level math and science than to have any airtime. And anyone who can do that is in a good position to make a positive contribution to this stupid, broken, ruined branch of aviation.

I don't want to be maimed or dead and don't want to maim or kill anyone else, so we're being pretty cautious in all our pursuits here.

You're never gonna make it at a big commercial tow operation - not enough of the Right Stuff.

Thanks much for participating here and keeping me busy. Keep the questions coming.

[llwest@comcast.net]

Ya go with what makes the most sense after a sane process of threat assessment. I'd say that foot over dolly in this environment is a no brainer. But is there something taking platform off the table or making it less desirable?

Yeah, the owners of the rig and most of us were only towing pg and the platform and nose-holding stuff was in the way, so we cut it all off (it was welded steel).
To return to platform, we would have put together a whole new setup and with only three hangies interested in using the rig right now and 30 or so pg's, there isn't a lot of enthusiasm for building the platform. One of the owners didn't like platform launching anyway, so even if we got more hangies interested, he wouldn't want it back on there.
I may buy my own winch someday (when I win the lottery) and put it on a trailer (don't have a pickup), but until then, we work with what we got. Mel keeps saying we'll be aerotowing behind him soon, but he's been saying that for four years now. Hard to get all the pieces together with the pilots and the weather on the same day.

[Tad Eareckson]

One of the owners didn't like platform launching anyway...

Any idea why? I hope it was a good reason 'cause if I had to chose between foot with a clean, stowable, brain wave controlled two stage release or platform with a couple of barrels on my hips I'd go with the latter.

Doesn't take much of a crash to dwarf the cost of equipment that would've eliminated the possibility from the equation.

[llwest@comcast.net]

One of the owners didn't like platform launching anyway...

Any idea why? I hope it was a good reason 'cause if I had to chose between foot with a clean, stowable, brain wave controlled two stage release or platform with a couple of barrels on my hips I'd go with the latter.

Doesn't take much of a crash to dwarf the cost of equipment that would've eliminated the possibility from the equation.

Yeah. He went over to paragliding only, and the line would hit the platform some times on payout. It actually caught on one of the brackets once when all the line was out after release and getting the line all back out of the bushes was a pain. It weighed a ton too and since no one was using it, we all figured it was better to just cut it up and leave just the winch in the back of the truck. A hangie wanting to platform also slowed down all the other baggies in line as the setup for a hangie on the platform slowed the whole show down. We figured we could foot launch the few times we chose to try and since there were only three of us interested in truck tow, and not THAT gung ho about it, and baggies out almost every weekend (yeah, i'm mostly baggie now since it's more convenient and easy to schedule), the platform went to the scrap yard (I think a hang pilot actually took it home thinking he might put it back on someday if the baggies sold the rig). But Mel and some other guys and I took the rig out last weekend and I got sort of motivated to fly the hg again and if we could get the hg tow thing going, it could be fun. My wife and job take first place in my life, so I went over to PG as it was as convenient as all get out and only fly the HG at the training hill now when working with students or take a ridge soar or sledder from a 1500 foot hill near flagstaff once a year (I help Mel teach at the training hill and do some scootering with my Condor and Falcon, but don't teach anyone in a "for real" way yet.
Used to fly hang every weekend and after work, but dont' have as flexible a schedule or wife as I used to. I know, waaa waaa waaa, my life is soooo hard.

end whining.
Thanks again for the mental stimulation.

[MikeLake]

"....'cause if I had to chose between foot with a clean, stowable, brain wave controlled two stage release or platform with a couple of barrels on my hips I'd go with the latter."

I would have to disagree on this one especially with a static winch.
There is quite a difference at launch time between the short line on a payout system and the very long line on a pull-in system. Bad things don't happen quite so quickly.
I would consider foot launching with a static winch to be about on par with foot launching down a hill, with the same problems stalling, tripping, dropping a wing etc.

The biggest problem I see is a pilot lunging into prone before the glider is fully ready to fly. This is normally followed by an uncomfortable take off with the pilot now thankful for the BHPA's no wheels no fly policy.

A pilot can also keep on the uprights as long as he wants and still slap his Koch (sounds rude) with the same efficiency (and pitfalls) as when in prone.

Also pilot preference should not be ignored.
The foot or trolley choice is not the same as a pilot choosing between a sh** rig release (that term is quickly becoming a standard) and a good release that both do exactly the same thing with the exception of one that kills people and one that does not.

A brain wave controlled two stage release sounds a good idea but this would require some brain waves to operate. I would guess this might shorten your list of possible candidates.

[llwest@comcast.net]

Who makes something like the Koch release here in the states? I looked online and couldn't find any new Kochs, only used old Kochs.
(This is too funny.)