A forum devoted to the scientific advancement of hang gliding
http://www.kitestrings.org/
The PROBLEMS (plural) with Skyting (my US perspective)...The problem with Skyting. (My UK perspective)
How terrible that must've been - no Industry Standard releases or standard aerotow weak links with huge track records. One wonders how anyone was able to survive.In the late '70s early '80s there were a few tow groups in the UK each group having their own equipment, methods and procedures.
Whereas today everything has been reduced to the lowest common denominator - so everyone knows exactly what to expect and his odds of survival - regardless of race, creed, religion, reflexes, or IQ. This is precisely why we fought and won (with just a wee bit of help from France) a revolution against you elitist bastards.Some were better than others but all were lumped into the same "Tow group" category.
All of which Donnell decided to ignore and toss - along with everything that had ever been established in the world of conventional gliders and sailplanes - in his reinvention of aviation from scratch.At this time some groups even if still frame towing had some pretty good kit and methods.
Why bother? If you use a minimum of three hundred feet of eighth inch nylon parachute shroud line as your towline it's virtually impossible for tow tensions to fluctuate outside of whatever it is you desire.Tow tensions were limited...
That's INSANE! A simple and inexpensive strand of nylon fishing line which breaks at the desired tension limit before the glider gets out of control, stalls, or collapses is the focal point of a safe towing system and MUST be the FIRST resort. Dr. Trisa Tilletti assures us that Dr. Lionel D. Hewitt, professor of physics and developer of the two to one center-of-mass Skyting bridle for surface towing, is well respected for his knowledge of towing, bridles, and weak links. And the pilot and his release or, on about one out of five or ten flights, hook knife are the last resorts....weak-links were a last resort...
Yeah, right. If releases worked why would we all be flying with weak links and hook knives? Asshole....releases worked...
Booooring....hard things didn't hit the pilot in the face and there were no strings, rings and loops to tangle.
Might as well stay home and play checkers.Everyone who lives dies, yet not everyone who dies, has lived. We take these risks not to escape life, but to prevent life escaping us.
Not in Kingsville, Texas. Donnell just assumed that since everyone else was too stupid to use a two to one bridle nothing else they were doing could possibly have any legitimacy.When frame towing was superseded by body towing most of the hard won lessons were carried over.
Gotta use nylon. Can't go wrong with that stuff.However, the poorer tow groups carried over their poorer techniques and a fixed line fatality...
That's ridiculous. In the US whenever we kill someone towing we just send a report to USHGA's lawyer......lead to a BHGA UK wide ban on ALL forms of towing.
...who buries it...Mark G. Forbes - 2011/09/30 23:21:56
Here's how it really works:
- Member submits an accident report. Could be the pilot who had the accident, or some other witness.
- Accident report is sent to Tim to maintain legal privilege. Tim reviews the report and determines whether there's significant legal risk associated with it. He may redact certain parts (personally identifiable information, etc.) if in his opinion exposure of that information poses a risk to us. If the report is very risky, he may decide that it can't be shared further, and will notify the Executive Director about it.
End of problem.Sam Kellner - 2012/07/03 02:25:58 UTC
No, you don't get an accident report.
Nah...What was needed at this time was some kind of order, authority, direction and confidence in towing.
We don't need no stinking kind of order, authority, direction and confidence in towing. The sport of hang gliding would surely not exist if that thinking were carried to its logical extreme.Bob Kuczewski - 2011/03/09 02:33:49 UTC
This is going to sound cold, but I believe people have a right to make their own choices. I don't want a "nanny state" where anyone is telling me what I can and can't do ... for my own good. The sport of hang gliding would surely not exist if that thinking were carried to its logical extreme.
http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=818Enter Skyting a system that promised and delivered the above.
And exit the Brooks Bridle which - to this day - kicks the asses of ALL of the lethal Industry Standard shit that one encounters at ALL US aerotow operations.Peter Birren - 2011/11/29 15:02:20 UTC
Yup, Don's 12 points are as good today as they were when he wrote 'em... and you're benefiting from his being the first to establish towing guidelines and considerations.
It was unquestionably the most dangerous crap EVER sent up on any kind of aircraft by anyone whose intent was not to crash the plane and kill everyone on it. And I am one hundred percent serious when I say that and I speak from personal experience. That equipment demolished gliders - sometimes before they even hit the ground.BUT this was using mostly inferior equipment...
With the overwhelming percentage of the 'discipline' overriding every last vestige of ten year old kid common sense....with some parts of the 'discipline' overriding well established safe techniques with inferior ones.
- Donnell believed in and pushed what he was doing, did a lot of work typing up and photocopying his newsletter and circulated it all over the world - US, UK, Canada, Mexico, Guatemala, Honduras, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Norway, Sweden, Germany, Israel, Netherlands, Costa Rica, Poland.I would guess that this general course of events (but probably not the ban) played out in other parts of the world at about the same time.
Like heroin. Makes you feel so good so fast that you're not looking at the whole picture.New tow groups adopted Skyting and were grateful for it.
It's the foundation for all the crap with which Dr. Tilletti has been clogging Hang Gliding magazine lately.It became the de facto standard with the bad bits still apparent some 30 years later.
It makes me...It makes me smile when I hear experts commenting on towing and saying things like "We have developed".
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846Paul Tjaden - 2011/07/30 15:33:54 UTC
Quest Air has been involved in perfecting aerotowing for nearly twenty years...
...wanna beat faces into unrecognizable pulps.Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 07:51:12 UTC
Ok, here's something to chew on, while we're on the topic.
It's not going to taste nice, but it's the god's honest truth.
It's not going to be nice because it's an affront to ego... which goes over like a lead balloon, but again... too bad, it's the truth.
See, the "everyone's opinion is valid" stuff is for the birds.
No. We don't consider everyone's opinion on these topics.
You're late to the game. Very late.
We've been at this a long freaking time. You haven't.
All these "ideas" that people propose, we've already been through... a number of times.
Don't you think that the people that do this day in and day out have maybe... I don't know... ALREADY THOUGHT OF THAT?
We did.
A long time ago.
Not only have we thought this stuff through seven different ways to sunday, we've tested a bunch of this shit too. And some of it's the stuff that you haven't even gotten around to realizing yet.
Speaking on behalf of the US...If you take the hang gliding community as a whole a huge chunk do not tow and have little or no interest in towing.
Nearly?Of those who do tow nearly all will simply use whatever equipment/methods available to them as instructed by their expert.
Experts on tying standard aerotow weak links, recovering from standard aerotow weak link failures, using standard aerotow weak links as instant hands free releases, and warning people how - even if they're not instantly killed in a lockout - their wings will be torn off if they use anything thirty pounds heavier than a standard aerotow weak link.With a few exceptions the expert will have inherited whatever their expert mentors taught them.
It IS the carcinogen that's been rotting out string powered hang gliding for over three decades.Almost all of these original experts adopted Skyting in the early days, and this is where we are.
Thank you very much, BHPA.Yesterday I had a weak-link break.
Yeah. That's why Dr. Trisa Tilletti wrote THIS:At a few hundred feet it was a non event, an inconvenience only.
in the rating requirements. They don't wanna be around on a low level simulation in rough air.The candidate must also demonstrate the ability to properly react to a weak link/tow rope break simulation with a tandem rated pilot, initiated by the tandem pilot at altitude, but at a lower than normal release altitude. Such demonstrations should be made in smooth air.
EXACTLY!When I launch I never worry too much about lockouts, face plants, my glider falling apart or the fact that I don't carry a hook knife.
It's BECAUSE you're using a weak link that blows at a few hundred feet where it's a non event, an inconvenience only that when you launch you never worry too much about lockouts, face plants, your glider falling apart, or the fact that you don't carry a hook knife (although why any halfway sane person would tow without a hook knife is totally beyond me).Jim Rooney - 2008/11/22 22:31:35 UTC
Nail on the head Brian!
The simple fact is this. The only reason anyone even gives Tad the time of day is that they want to believe him. Why? Because they don't like to be inconvenienced by a weaklink break. That's it.
Sure, everyone digs around for other reasons to believe, but at the heart of it, it's convenience.
No one is actually scared to fly with a standard weaklink. They may say they are, but deep down inside, they're not.
Tad loves to speak of himself as a scientifically minded person. Yet he ignores a data pool that is at minimum three orders of magnitude higher than his. It is thus that I ignore him.
If you were a REAL pilot...What I DO worry about is my weak-link failing at 30' with perhaps a wing popping up a bit at the same time.
...something like that could NEVER happen.Jack Axaopoulos - 2009/07/04 12:13:01 UTC
Bullshit.
a) only the pilot can let the angle of attack increase when you lose tension. Thats 100% on the pilot. You are simply wrong and misleading again.
b) "And if your angle of attack was way too high to begin with..." Which should never be the case or youre making a pilot error. Again, you are misleading people.
This is the problem I have with you. You attempt to fallaciously attribute pilot errors to issues of mechanical towing devices or other things.
Stop whining.I endure (and risk) this on every takeoff. That's nearly 30 times in just the last couple of weeks or so.
Use of a really safe weak link will force you to improve your towing skills.Marc Fink - 2007/05/25 00:26:39 UTC
Excellent points, Danny. We tow with an elastic polypro system in Maine--which I personally don't like cause I hate the "rubber band effect" (especially on tandems)--but others like the "forgiving nature" of the energy absorbtion.
There's yet a third variable missing from the discussion so far which I think is crucial and gets to the core of this discussion.
That is the drag of the glider itself through the air, which, depending upon many variables, can rapidly increase or decrease the pressures on the tow system.
And I say tow system--because I don't believe that you can look at this problem through one of isolation of just one component and expect that adjusting that one component can adjust for failings in other aspects of the system.
I suspect he'll kill me for mentioning it--but Larry Huffman has never broken a weaklink in 11 years of aerotowing. Is he lucky, beating the odds somehow, or only goes and tows in perfect calm conditions? I think not. Rather, he recognizes that safe towing is not a question of where you keep the tug or glider as an absolute priority--but that the overall safety of the tow has to do with towline pressure management. Thus, the pilot needs to anticipate what will happen to the pressure on the line and take whatever corrective action is necessary to correct a potential overbuild of pressure. It takes alot of skill to be able to respond with the right degree at the right time to prevent oscillations in tow pressures. These typically happen when transitioning spots of lift/turbulence where most likely the rising and falling of the tug and glider will be out of synch and therefore the proper input needs to be in anticipation of that lag.
I jacked mine up an extra 250 pounds towline over what those brain dead Ridgely douchebags had me flying on.On EVERY takeoff, by design and all for the want of an extra 30lbs or so on my weak-link.
But I couldn't do anything about the crap on the tug or...One of the legacies of Skyting.
...the total moron driving it 'cause in US hang gliding there's no such thing as too light and all the regulations are just suggestions.Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01
Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.
It's more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.
The VERY REAL and CONSTANT THREAT of LOCKOUTS?!?!Mike Badley - 2014/04/09 17:05:28 UTC
MISSED OPPORTUNITY - to discuss the very real and constant threat of lockouts with a nice article linked to the cover photo.
Lockouts became a thing of the past over three decades ago. Skyting did to lockouts what reflex bridles did to full luff dives. What cave have you been living in and who's been feeding you?Gil Dodgen - 1983/05
I am not a tow pilot, and although Donnell's system made sense to me I was forced to discontinue the series. The essence of his system was a double bridle that connected to the glider and to the pilot. This system would thus pull the pilot back on line in the event that the glider was inadvertently turned off course from behind the vehicle. This would produce a self-correcting system avoiding the infamous "lockout" the factor which seemed to make towing so dangerous.
Well, it appears that Mr. Hewitt's system not only works but, as I've been told by pilots who have made literally thousands of land tows with it, it works beyond all the most optimistic expectations. One pilot told me, "It is virtually impossible to lock out even if one tries."
Jeffrey M. Roberson (Ridgerunner) - 2014/07/03 23:32:26 UTC
Salt Lake City
I just wonder when one of these "innovative" hang glider manufacturers will go so far as to even acknowledge the existence of my Lever Link:
http://www.jmrware.com/articles/2008/leverlink/LeverLink.html
design idea. (Which, once implemented, will simply redefine roll authority for flex-blade-wings - and may very well prove to be the greatest innovation since the advent of the double surface).
Six years and counting since I first published that article and yet not one peep heard from the lot of them.
Funny thing is, when I told John Dickenson about this, he said (paraphrasing): "Great idea - but be sure to get a patent on it or the manufacturers will steal it out from under you."
To this I reply: "Please - steal away!"
(Oh, never mind - I guess if you want something done right...)
Jeffrey M. Roberson - 2014/07/07 15:47:54 UTC
Thanks for the comments, but I don't wish to hijack this thread (which evidently deals with a hang glider manufacturer's "Mine is bigger than yours" pissing match). I was just making (what I believed to be) a relevant point that not all great innovations have yet been tried. I'd very much like to discuss this idea further with anyone interested (especially the manufacturers and any real engineers in here), but this is not the right place. The thread to discuss this further would be: Power Steering (but I'm not going to bump it myself). Note that not one of the manufacturers have yet commented on this idea (and that was the point of my post here).
Cheers
Jeff Roberson
USHGA #34482
Hey Jonathan... Wanna do something to reduce the amount of pain and suffering in this sport? Put that poor guy out of his misery.NMERider - 2014/07/07 23:26:17 UTC
Sorry Jeff,
The thread deals with Plagiarism -OTOH - You seem to be seeking some form of acknowledgement for an untested and unproven concept for which there exists no full-scale working model. Build and test a full-scale working model and if it turns out to be the best thing since sliced bread then you can bank on Moyes putting their name on it and claiming they invented it, not you. After all THAT is the point of this thread. Having had my own original, successful, working inventions placed into production by others who refused to pay any royalty or give any credit where credit is due I know how it feels to be robbed of my intellectual property as opposed to merely being ignored. There's a world of difference.At its simplest and most extreme, plagiarism involves putting one's own name on someone else's work
Sincerely,
Jonathan
Not necessary. Look at his diagram:Build and test a full-scale working model...
...professor of physics and developer of the 2-to-1 center-of-mass Skyting bridle for surface towing and well respected for his knowledge of towing, bridles, and weak links made - total failure to understand fundamental high school physics and how hang glider roll control works (which is EXACTLY the same as pitch control works which he DID manage to get right). "Weight shift" - fore, aft, left, right - makes the glider tilt up, down, right, left respectively. Weight shift is a BYPRODUCT of DIFFERENTIAL WIRE TENSION which IS how a glider is controlled. It's also how the Wright Flyer was controlled with the pilot in a fixed center position.Dr. Trisa Tilletti - 2012/06
Dr. Lionel D. Hewitt, professor of physics and developer of the 2-to-1 center-of-mass Skyting bridle for surface towing, is well respected for his knowledge of towing, bridles, and weak links.
It's backwards. A third of a century's worth of world hang glider towing based upon a backwards assumption.Donnell Hewett - 1982/09
In addition to the above mentioned roll and yaw tendencies, there is some sideways force on the pilot due to the body line. This is illustrated below:
PILOT WEIGHT SHIFT
Back View
As can be seen, this sideways force tends to pull the pilot over to the correct side to make the glider turn naturally in the proper direction.
The net effect of all these forces acting together has, in my experience, always helped turn the glider in the correct direction, even at cross angles as great as 90 degrees. Never-the-less, I do not recommend that you deliberately place yourself in a situation where you need to rely upon these forces to help get you out. You may just discover a particular case where they do not help. Neither the theory of these forces nor the experimental testing of such situations can be considered complete at this time.
That's how. Tell this guy that none of his constructions will do anything and that if they DID do something it would be the opposite of what he's trying to do because his fundamental assumptions are totally invalid.Zack C - 2012/06/02 02:20:45 UTC
I just cannot fathom how our sport can be so screwed up.
And make sure not to publicly post anything about...Note: If you are interested in this lever link idea and would like to discuss it further, please post any thoughts, criticisms, and/or questions to the following forum threads:
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11707
"Power Steering"
at OzReport.com and/or:
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?p=101079
"Any Engineers in here? (need feedback on Lever Link idea)"
at Hanggliding.org.
Steve Davy - 2012/04/27 01:55:17 UTC
Why did you delete my post?
http://www.hanggliding.org/wiki/HG_ORG_Mission_StatementDavis Straub - 2012/04/27 02:42:02
Tad's name.
...T** at K*** S******.No posts or links about Bob K, Scott C Wise, Tad Eareckson and related people, or their material. ALL SUCH POSTS WILL BE IMMEDIATELY DELETED. These people are poison to this sport and are permanently banned from this site in every possible way imaginable.
Oh bullshit. It didn't even make it up to the status of incident report by anybody. How could it POSSIBLY be horrific and unnecessary?Mike Lake - 2014/08/23 17:31:48 UTC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pkB7GIxTUU
This is horrific and unnecessary.
He was watching the pressure gauge.Why didn't the winch-man ease up?
Harold Johnson probably...I assume there was a winch-man.
Because the tow pressure was NORMAL!Why didn't the winch-man ease up?
Because the tow pressure was NORMAL!So important I'll say it again.
Because he thought he could fix a bad thing and didn't wanna start over.Why didn't the pilot release?
Of course he did. Watch the fuckin' video ferchrisake. Right there within easy reach in front of his right hip. Very very reliable bent pin release. Huge track record. Quite literally hundreds of thousands of tows.I assume he had a quick and easy to get at release.
Because if he'd been PRONE he could've swung forward and hit his head on the keel or ground with a lot of force - asshole. Why do think we put these students in forced upright harnesses?Why was the pilot not prone? More control might have saved him early on.
Ya know you've gotta splice that stuff back together after you cut it.Why didn't the winch-man guillotine the line?
Who gives a rat's ass? There's almost always somebody nearby with a Swiss Army knife.Was there a guillotine?
Because...Why didn't the weak-link save his arse?
...he didn't pitch out abruptly after he figured out he was gonna need to start over anyway.Jim Rooney - 2009/11/03 06:16:56 UTC
As for being in a situation where you can't or don't want to let go, Ryan's got the right idea. They're called "weak" links for a reason. Overload that puppy and you bet your ass it's going to break.
You can tell me till you're blue in the face about situations where it theoretically won't let go or you can drone on and on about how "weaklinks only protect the glider" (which is BS btw)... and I can tell ya... I could give a crap, cuz just pitch out abruptly and that little piece of string doesn't have a chance in hell. Take your theory and shove it... I'm saving my a$$.
Or maybe he accidently doubled his standard weak link or deliberately installed a Tad-O-Link when nobody was watching because he didn't wanna be inconvenienced as much.Only joking.
It gets really boring running these operations. Besides, if you don't make towing as risky as you possibly can...Why do tow groups continue to kill people?
...nobody will be attracted to it.Mitch Shipley - 2012/10/22 19:04:16 UTC
We engage in a sport that has risk and that is part of the attraction.
Not as much as THIS:This guy is as good as dead.
...former Whitewater victim.http://whitewaterhangglidingclub.freeforums.org/status-of-towing-at-hgw-t625.htmlJoel (tugpilot) - 2009/09/02 20:23 UTC
As most of you have heard there was a hang gliding accident last Monday. A pilot (Roy Messing) was injured and is currently under medical care at a hospital in Milwaukee. Now that the tug is operating under Part 91 regs, the FAA was called and came out to inspect the aircraft and evaluate its pilot.
The tug was inspected and must undergo some basic repairs. My medical history was scrutinized and I will need to undergo some evaluation. This is typical when an accident involves an injury.
Unfortunately, the process is not swift. I will have the tug legal as soon as possible but the process of my evaluation will not be finalized as quickly. I will try to staff the tug if possible while waiting on my paperwork to come through.
This means that towing for the rest of this season may be sporadic at best.
I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news but anyone who has had dealings with federal entities knows they don't move quickly. I will do all I can and am currently working on resolving this situation as quickly as possible.
I would appreciate it if the flying community would refrain from inundating me with calls and questions so I can focus on the matter of getting us back in the air as soon as possible.
Yeah? Well if it was sorted out so goddam well thirty years ago then how come Quest had to spend the last twenty perfecting it? Fuck you, dude.This stuff was sorted 30 years ago.
Don't worry about that. This should start a really productive discussion on hook knives within the next couple days.Everyone just carry on for fuck sake.
Not me. We can't stop this bullshit and reverse reverse evolution to back when things were being done mostly right and fix the mainstream but the more people see of the carnage out in the mainstream the more powerful our little splinter movement becomes. I'd rather kill Davis, Rooney, Zack Marzec types but relatively innocent students are better than nothing.Mr Angry.
- How 'bout first we talk about the TOW "RELEASE" first? Whether or not it was within easy enough reach?Jim Steel - 2014/08/23 23:26:23 UTC
TOW BRIDLE
Am I wrong, or does scooter tow bridle belong BELOW the control bar??
Fuck locally. 'Specially Ohio locally.Craig Hassan - 2014/08/24 02:00:17 UTC
Locally...
Do any of those issues include not being able to get back around, slamming in, and dying?...the bridle will go over the bar for early foot launch training. Then you switch to under the bar and launch dolly starts.
I've towed over the bar for high tows where the line comes down on the bar. It will speed you up pretty quick. If you push out you can counter it easy enough though. Let it get over the wheels on the side and you'll have issues getting back round to straight.
Why? Are you fuckin' blind?Not sure what went on in the video...
How 'bout here:...but there were a half dozen things that could have been done to "fix" the problem up until not long before impact.
What makes you think he had an instructor?Davis Straub - 2014/08/24 03:07:17 UTC
OMG.
Geez. The tow instructor is located where?
What the fuck difference does it make? He's seventeen seconds beyond initiation of takeoff before he starts getting into the kind of trouble a Davis Link is supposed to prevent and doesn't. Unless you consider that with the cheap Davis Dead-On Straub junk he's using for tow equipment he was already in serious trouble when he got out of his car that morning.Next to the student when he starts?
So he gets more enjoyment out of the experience before he does something like:Why is this student so high, when he obviously doesn't know how to control a glider?
"GODAMMIT! FIVE of these in the past two weekends!"What did the farmer say?
Steve Wendt? Yeah, he's exceptionally knowledgeable. Hell, he's the one who signed off:Perhaps the pilot should go here instead:
http://www.blueskyhg.com/
Just give him the scrap aluminum. That should WAY more than cover it.Alan Deikman - 2014/08/24 03:43:06 UTC
Fremont
Corn is $0.30 per ear.
Kinda like?:Pedro Enrique - 2014/08/24 04:43:45 UTC
California
Maybe the pilot can answer these questions? I've towed in that manner (without the crashing part) many times at Tres Pinos. If that happens, the auto release kicks in...
Told ya they used pressure there....the tow operator releases pressure...
Where does the instructor who cleared him for that stage of flying go for a bit?...and then the pilot goes back to the training hill for a bit.
I'm curious to know why you think that the only safe way a tow pilot can get off tow in an emergency situation is to have Birrenator kick in.I'm curious to know the answers to those questions as well.
Thanks for posting.
Pedro.
---
I don't always fly trim, but when I do, I do it like a pro!
H-3 Falcon 3 (145)
Pedro Enrique - 93931 - H3 - 2014/04/24 - Harold Johnson - FL ST FSL
Why can't you say what happened? 'Cause you weren't "there" watching from a couple hundred yards away and just seeing this high resolution/quality video?Tiberiu Szollosi - 2014/08/24 10:32:45 UTC
That looks like Whitewater Wisconsin (it's where i fly ) but i'm not there during scooter tow lessons so i can't say what happened but sure didn't look too good .
- Sorry, Brad, I missed the part where he was "CROSS" controlling - where he was inputting left and causing the glider to roll to the right.Brad Barkley - 2014/08/24 19:05:00 UTC
The pilot should NOT be towed so high while still cross-controlling this much, and as yet unable to give proper control inputs to the glider.
Really? At Blue Sky they route the bridle UNDER the bar...Until that point, it should be "low and slow." At Blue Sky, where I did my training, the tow bridle connected over the bar for scooter towing (under for truck towing)...
When you asked Steve why he doesn't use a Koch two stage what did he tell you?...and attached to both the pilot and the apex of the glider's control frame.
I like the way you:
It all comes down to one thing: you've got to hook in. Period. Good to see you've internalized that concept.Scott Wilkinson - 2005/10/05 14:10:56 UTC
We visited Steve Wendt yesterday, who was visibly choked up over Bill's death. For Steve, it all comes down to one thing: you've got to hook in. Period.
Name somebody - outside of France, Eastern Europe, and Japan maybe - who's doing GOOD training. And no, if one or more of someone's students has been mangled or killed as a consequence of your shit training, you can't count him.Mike Badley - 2014/08/24 23:31:39 UTC
Sacramento
Bad training!
- We have the technology to keep the line off of the bar - regardless of steepening tow angle. If you elect not to use it then please fuck off.Again, (said it before) not a big fan of OVER THE BAR tow lines.
Bullshit.Even training flights will develop habits that are hard to break when you later transition to an under the bar method.
Within easy reach.Second - that release was at the hip.
Easily reach down to find it.Meaning that the pilot would have to reach down to find it...
So? Cite me any SOP from any national organization or regulatory agency or quote me something from the excellent book, Towing Aloft, by Dennis Pagen and Bill Bryden that even indicates a release actuator you hafta look for is the least bit problematic....maybe even having to look down for it.
Why do we need a lever to ramp up the mechanical advantage of a hang glider release? I don't think there's a sailplane in existence that can't be blown off tow with a straight back pull on a knob on the back end of a cable running to a Tost release.Releases should be either that lever style...
And:...attached to the basetube where you can just slap it...
...control compromiseDennis Pagen - 2005/01
By the time we gained about 60 feet I could no longer hold the glider centered--I was probably at a 20-degree bank--so I quickly released before the lockout to the side progressed. The glider instantly whipped to the side in a wingover maneuver.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/6726...or in line with the tow bridle where you grab and yank it.
Peter Birren - 2008/10/27 23:41:49 UTC
Imagine if you will, just coming off the cart and center punching a thermal which takes you instantly straight up while the tug is still on the ground. Know what happens? VERY high towline forces and an over-the-top lockout. You'll have both hands on the basetube pulling it well past your knees but the glider doesn't come down and still the weaklink doesn't break (.8G). So you pull whatever release you have but the one hand still on the basetube isn't enough to hold the nose down and you pop up and over into an unplanned semi-loop. Been there, done that... at maybe 200 feet agl.
As long as you can see it...Never out of sight from looking frontwards.
Yeah.This pilot NEVER made any attempt to pull a release and rode the downtubes all the way in.
Go figure.Joe Gregor - 2004/09
There is no evidence that the pilot made an attempt to release from tow prior to the weak link break, the gate was found closed on the Wallaby-style tow release.
Yeah. Maybe what he really needs is a release clinic at Quest...He should have been drilled from ground training day one to NEVER STAY ON A BAD TOW.
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3391Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC
When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less), but the F'ing release slid around when I tried to hit it. The barrel release wouldn't work because we had too much pressure on it.
Those are the folk who've been perfecting aerotowing - and fatality reports - for twenty years.Paul Tjaden - 2008/07/22 04:32:22 UTC
I have never had a lockout situation happen so quickly and dramatically and had no chance to release as I have always thought I could do.
So did Bob Buxton.He had a lot of time to release.
...just elect to stay on tow until it's too late?Davis Straub - 2006/01/24 12:27:32 UTC
I'm willing to put the barrel release within a few inches of my hand.
Or even Effect. I'm totally out of ideas on what the problem is.At least 5 seconds or so from when the towline hopped his wheels before it was too late to have any affect.
It DIDN'T end well. The glider and pilot both need to LAND in good enough shape to go right back up before you can count it as ending well.Lucky he smacked a wet cornfield. Even though it looked like a pretty good sized hurt, if he did that on hardpacked or rocky ground - might not have ended well.
And weak link. Notice how it worked to keep him from being dragged and thus fulfilled its mission of increasing the safety of the towing operation?Larry Howe - 2014/08/25 01:29:21 UTC
yet another needlessly broken down tube
...student victim's...Mike Lake - 2014/08/25 01:29:43 UTC
Indeed the pilot's...
Same crew that pulled Roy Messing all the way into the ground on another known total piece of shit "release"....technique is very suspect but who the hell pulled him all the way into the ground?
He could have if somebody had taught him how to make a roll input before hauling him up.Over the bar is not the issue. The winch-man should have eased up a bit at about 20 seconds (into the video). The pilot could have recovered and maybe even continued the tow.
I was doing that at the 0.0 second mark during my first viewing of the video just seeing the crap they were putting him up on.If the pilot was not capable of that then you must question his teacher.
Go for it.This video also highlights some other issues and I warn you this might not be palatable for some.
Thermals on launch don't exist in Industry scenarios because they don't use the equipment which can make them survivable.Swap the pilot for someone with more experience but let him get past the point of no return due to a thermal.
Nothing. It's only during normal landings in smooth air that taking a hand off is potentially problematic. That's why they teach you go on final half a mile out, rotate to upright, carefully move one hand at a time to the downtubes and stay that way. Not an issue in a low level tow emergency.What hope has he got reaching for his release and what would the glider do while he is flying with one hand floundering about looking for something to grab?
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230What would happen to the glider if he had attempted that super expert Rooney/Voight technique of pushing out to break the weak-link?
The glider will pitch up, the weak link will break, and you fly away.Ryan Voight - 2009/11/03 05:24:31 UTC
It works best in a lockout situation... if you're banked away from the tug and have the bar back by your belly button... let it out. Glider will pitch up, break weaklink, and you fly away.
Duh.
Bullshit. Read Ryan's post ferchrisake. What part of "You fly away." are you having so much difficulty understanding?Would he have faired better or worse doing a wing-over before cartwheeling downwind into the ground?
It was obviously a stronglink. The two hundred stuff Morningside decided they were happy with. Only when we're visiting them in the hospital do they begin to hear what we've been telling them all along.The weak-link did not prevent this lockout.
What? Are we gonna start blaming winch men for glider pilot error? Where would it stop? God? Flight park operators? Tug pilots?Have some comfort if done correctly and with a good winch-man lockouts need not be feared and have been virtually eliminated.
That's why they make it a point to irrigate the corn fields before a day of flying. Let's not go nuts here.On the other hand crap techniques, equipment, training, people and, at that height, you haven't got too much going for you.
