Kite Strings

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=24555
Optimum Body Weight

Jatay - 2012/01/19 16:53:29 UTC

I am considering purchasing a used Sport 2 from a friend; I am not super proficient at hang gliding... yet. This would be a wing to be used in a year or so when my skill level is higher.

The catch is that, at 190, I am 10 lbs below the optimum body weight... it's a Sport 2 175 (optimum body weight 200-260).

I see the hook-in weight range as 175-320, which I would fall into nicely.

If one were advising a proficient hang glider pilot, would you tell that pilot:

1) The kite is too big and flying it at that body weight would show poor judgement.

2) If you are a good pilot you can fly a wing that large, just use caution with regard to the conditions you fly that wing in.

3) No problem, it's done frequently; be advised the wing loading will be lower and handling qualities may not be optimum.

4) ...

Thanks in advance for your learned advice.

Get the 155.

When you're new the inclination is to get a bigger wing 'cause you figure it'll keep you up higher and longer. But the reality - you'll soon find out - is that hang gliders are a bitch to control and take a lot of muscle. And if you can't put the wing right where you want it the float advantage you have with the bigger wing will go down the toilet.

When you're entering or working thermals you'll be fighting to turn in the direction of the wing that's lifting. If you win the fight there's a big payoff. If you get overpowered you're gonna get kicked into sink.

Furthermore...

Although your vertical speed (sink rate) increases with wing loading, within the glider's certified weight range, your horizontal speed does too - proportionally and at no cost in glide ratio. That's a good thing when you're trying to make it to the next thermal or penetrate strong winds away from a ridge and to a safe landing area.

Generally speaking it's a good idea to go small if you're wondering about two sizes.

I think glider size would depend on the conditions that one usually flies in. If conditions are usually strong, then a smaller glider would probably work better. If conditions are usually mild, buoyant and you always land in the pleasant pastures, then a larger glider would be no problem.

Larger gliders build strong bodies.

I think glider size would depend on the conditions that one usually flies in.

If I'm only gonna have one glider I want it, not for the conditions that I usually fly in, but for the most demanding conditions I'm likely to fly in. And that would be my recommendation for anyone else.

If conditions are usually strong, then a smaller glider would probably work better.

If conditions are usually light, they can get unusually strong. And then a smaller glider would definitely work better.

If conditions are usually mild, buoyant and you always land in the pleasant pastures, then a larger glider would be no problem.

If you're landing in something in which it matters what size and model of glider you're flying - you shouldn't be.

Larger gliders build strong bodies.

- The Falcon 195 Joe Gregor was flying at Woodstock on 2007/04/29 when the winds picked up did absolutely nothing to build his body up. It got him into a position in which his perfectly good body had a lot damage done to it - some of it permanent.

- NOBODY...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25536
Whoops! Snapped another tip wand :-O

NMERider - 2012/03/14 15:17:14 UTC

When I come in on many of these flights with sloppy landings, I am often physically and mentally exhausted. That means fatigued to the max. Many times I can't even lift my glider and harness, I'm so pooped.

This is the price of flying real XC. I have seen many a great pilot come in an land on record-setting flights and they literally just fly into the ground and pound in. I kid you not.

...wants his body being built up while he's flying ANYTHING. Hang gliders are already the most physically demanding planes anybody flies and the designers have worked their asses of for decades to increase performance while keeping the body building values down to the lowest possible minimums. That's why we have raised suspension and spreader bars. And we have VG solely so we can have a choice between performance and handling modes.

- Anybody who really wants a workout when he's on a glider can get one - regardless of what he's flying.

I agree with everything Tad said. I was light on my first wing (Horizon) (not to get something that would keep me up higher and longer but because the model was new and Northwing hadn't settled on the weight range yet...) and after that I resolved to be in the upper half of the recommended weight range of any wing I'd own.

I've ridge soared my Falcon 170 (on which I'm at the top of the recommended weight range) at Packsaddle in ~10 mph winds. Sure, I'm below everyone, but that means less traffic!

Yeah, there are times when a bigger wing is going to be better (like at the beach), but (as Tad said) if you're only going to have one...

Zack

If I'd done my homework and read through the whole thread...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=24555
Optimum Body Weight

Karl Allmendinger - 2012/01/20 20:01:57 UTC
Silicon Valley

Whether you would lose anything compared to the 175 in thermal climbs is questionable because being able to instantly maneuver a glider exactly the way you want can give you faster and higher climbs than having a little better sink rate and struggling to control the glider. Even if you do lose a bit of climb, the glide and speed of the 155 will more than make up for it.

I've flown several 155s and hooking in at 185 pounds I felt a bit light on them but not much. I test flew a 175 and, while it handled OK and climbed well, speed and glide were not very good, even at full VG, because I was way too light to make it perform.

...I'd have found that it had already been said.

Oh well...

I do not disagree with anything anyone has stated but my experience has been 180° different.

I am writing this not as an argument but as another data point.

I started on a Skyhawk 188 and weighed around 140.
I had a minimal harness and no chute.

I think I was below the recommended weight for the glider. I flew the glider for about 5 years and never broke anything on it. I spent about 2 years on a training hill with it before going to the big hill. Ground handling was not really a problem once you figure it out. I learned early on that if it was too windy or turbulent, it was not a flying day. That is not too difficult to figure out even for someone with no rating and no instructor. I learned how to thermal in that glider. Once I got to the big hill and got comfortable, I was able to thermal through the gaggle and sit at the top with the big boys. I was able to break through the inversion layer often with that glider. When you are above the inversion layer, it looks almost magical especially when other gliders are frantically trying to thermal up and cannot.

When you are light on a glider, you have to exaggerate the movements and perform them quicker to overcome the inertia of a bigger bird. One bonus to being light is that the glider lands slowly and easily.

I flew light for 5 years and got the merit badge.

You?

I have also flown about 3 years on the upper end of the weight range of a small TRX. On light days, I was on the ground watching the others fly. On strong turbulent days, when other pilots were pinned to the hill like pennants, I could fly around at will in full control. Never took out any tubes on that bird either.

I eventually bought the large version of that bird and ended up flying it more than the small version.

For general fun flying, I would rather be light on the bird in light conditions. Strong turbulent conditions are not fun for me anymore.

195 Falcon

I do not disagree with anything anyone has stated but my experience has been 180° different.

Not really.

I think I was below the recommended weight for the glider.

155 (to 230) pounds.

Ground handling was not really a problem once you figure it out.

Ground handling in wind is flying and it's an excellent way to get a feel for what's going on. And I've seen people with substantial numbers on their cards who are astonishingly clueless.

I learned early on that if it was too windy or turbulent, it was not a flying day.

"Too windy or turbulent" is dependent on glider size. You'll have more flying days on a smaller glider. Granted, more of those will be reduced to sledding, but overall I'd predict more airtime.

That is not too difficult to figure out even for someone with no rating and no instructor.

Unfortunately, in this sport there are a lot of advantages to having no instructor. If you raised people in isolation on an island and gave them hang gliding equipment and conventional aviation texts...
- wheel landings would be the norm
- there'd be no:
-- brake levers on downtubes
-- such thing as a standard aerotow weak link
- with a bit o' luck there'd be no such thing as a hang check

Once I got to the big hill and got comfortable...

Which, I'd have predicted, you'd have done a lot faster with the 168...

...I was able to thermal through the gaggle and sit at the top with the big boys.

Lotsa tradeoffs in what we do. Lotsa times paragliders can kick our asses - for similar reasons.

When you are light on a glider, you have to exaggerate the movements and perform them quicker to overcome the inertia of a bigger bird.

For any glider there's a point at which you can exaggerate the movements with as much speed as you want and it won't make any useful difference. BTDT. And the bigger the glider the lower the conditions threshold required to make you a passenger.

You?

I did damn near all my learning as a Kitty Hawk Kites "instructor" (glider ride supervisor) on the Jockey's Ridge dunes for a bit in the fall of 1980 and the full 1982 season and got to fly anything I wanted.

Conditions over the course of a day could vary from dead through light and smooth, strong and smooth, and very strong with violent and dangerous thermal turbulence to let's get the gliders back to the shop while we still can.

A lot of the flying was very demanding, my instruction and mentoring mostly sucked, I was very aggressive and went through (round, cheap, cut and drilled them myself) downtubes like popcorn. But the sand was soft, it was really hard to get hurt, and I got very good at flying and crashing very fast.

Then I had to go back to Maryland and listen to a bunch of heads-up-their-asses mountain jocks incapable of doing turns under 150 feet talk about what a joke dune flying was.

I eventually bought the large version of that bird and ended up flying it more than the small version.

Great. Different gliders for different conditions. But we're addressing a new pilot who's just getting one glider and we're trying to get him as much airtime as possible while keeping him as safe as possible.

For general fun flying, I would rather be light on the bird in light conditions.

Who wouldn't?

Strong turbulent conditions are not fun for me anymore.

They're not fun for anyone. But lotsa times you can ride them out and do something to make the day a rewarding experience.

195 Falcon

Whistleblower ostracism.

http://vimeo.com/17743952

password - red
10-525
http://farm1.staticflickr.com/435/19224482318_2da3f48afe_o.png


http://farm1.staticflickr.com/295/19224474340_099a8130e1_o.png
12-907

Second photo, after recovery from a near lockout, is a pretty good illustration of how hang glider roll control works.

Weight is shifted to the right by torqueing the control frame which increases right wire tension and wing loading and does the opposite to the left. Sail billow shifts, right trailing edge deflects up, left trailing edge is pulled down. Same deal as Wilbur's wing warping concept and ailerons.

But it takes a lot of muscle and it's not too hard for a towline pulling to the side to overwhelm the pilot's efforts / glider's capabilities.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9fQuDzFuCE

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=43026
Coasties - Learn From My Mistake

Janica Lee - 2015/06/28 16:20:47 UTC

Caught a smooth South shear yesterday at Westlake/Funston + learned a VERY important lesson to always keep an exit hole in the shear clouds in sight that you *know* is over land.

Put myself in a very dangerous situation: Caught and followed the shear lift way too far over the ocean - someone on the ground estimated my location at least .75 miles out. Then the cloud cover blanketed everything so I couldn't see land + had no idea how far out over the ocean I was. A tanker far out to sea provided the only frame of reference.

Didn't want to risk diving through the white only to get disoriented and/or realize I gave up too much altitude to make it back to land. Mentally went through the steps I needed to take for an ocean landing to survive.

Good freakin' luck.

It was that serious + scary

Used best logic I could to survive. The wind came from the SW + the edge of the huge cloud mass lay to the SW so I angled back toward that SW edge while also crabbing SE (closer toward where I hoped the shore was). Luckily Mother decided to be kind to me - a hole opened up and I saw a wee black spot with waves breaking on it. Had no clue where along the coast I was but I made a beeline for that blessed spot of land. Thank goodness it turned out to be the South edges of Mussel Rock's coastline.

Never have I ever flown as fast back to Funston before - combo of strong S tailwind + adrenaline-fueled fear.

Learn from my mistake. Don't fly too far over the ocean + err on the side of conservative when deciding when to bail.
The lift you miss that day will be there the next.
Live to fly another day.
Your friends + family will thank you.

Wanna say anything about how much stress would've been subtracted from that situation with GPS? A fuckin' iPhone mounted on a downtube could've made the difference between a spot landing on the old Frisbee and never being seen again.

I don't think I have a lot to learn from you, Janica.

http://www.flyfunston.org/primer.php
Hang Gliding Fort Funston Primer

Kent Harker

Learn how to turn with pitch-only input.

Hey, Brian - broach that subject on Jack Asshole's idiot asylum and see how far it gets.