Kite Strings

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=229
Quest Friday, shoulder towing

Lauren Tjaden - 2005/03/05 00:37:37 UTC

Fuck you, Lauren.

Today I experienced a lovely flight, a little 40 minute number to 3100, flown after 3 PM, when the thermals had lost some of their sharp edges. I was brave enough and smart enough not to run when other pilots came in on my tail. Once I got scared enough I let another pilot take my thermal, but I at least stayed on the outside of the circle and came back in after he got higher than I was, instead of punishing myself by marching off to another area in a huff.

He was outclimbing you. Under right of way rules you're OBLIGATED to get the fuck out of his way.

When it's blue, you gotta give up your pride!

I wonder just what it is that makes you think you've ever been entitled to any pride in this sport.

Actually I am just learning a bit about how to fly politely in company.

No doubt whatsoever. You've always been unparalleled in your abilities to get along with people. Unfortunately the sport has always been in desperate need of people skilled in demolishing assholes like you and the assholes you get along with so beautifully.

Landing was interesting with many pilots plummeting from the sky at the same moment, complicated by a small, tempting -- but ultimately unworkable -- thermal, three to four hundred feet over the LZ. Ah, that is what the tug plane is for; you can always try again if it is too challenging and you are in danger pushing it.

Lemme tell ya sumpin', Lauren...

Launching behind a tug is inherently dangerous - especially in thermal conditions and if you don't know what you're doing and are using crap equipment. And you don't know what you're doing and are using crap equipment. So you may wanna think about accepting a little more danger pushing things after a successful (not to be confused with safe) tow.

After landing, it was time to confront my third challenge for the last two weeks. The challenges were: (number 1) I had to go XC at least once, (number 2) try to get my 4, and (number 3, the one that I hadn't done) tow off my shoulders. It is amazing what a woosie I am.

Nah Lauren...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3695
good day until the wreck

Lauren Tjaden - 2008/12/31 04:29:12 UTC

very light conditions at quest. me, paul, dustin, carl and jamie were going to fly out and back but not high enough so we flew around the patch. i worked small lift using carl's tips...he is english where conditions are weak, and is 2nd in world.

came in with no wind after an hour and had right wing drop. instead of wrestling gilder straight i tried to flare while desperately trying to straighten.

bad bad whack. horrible pain, i could not move. screaming with pain, literally. took a very long time to get me out and to the hospital. got very good drugs.

turned out to be badly dislocated shoulder. they had to knock me out to put it back in but it was so bad i kept waking up and screaming. finally they got it done but then they had a hard time waking me back up. drugs were so wierd by the end i could not leave for hours, i'd just start bawling for no reason.

You're a real fighter. Get that glider foot landed no matter how unnecessary for the surface and regardless of the cost. People like you are inspirations to people like Shannon.

Worry worry worry but I was damned if I was going to put it off.

Did you read in the 2005/01 issue of the magazine Dennis Pagen's report on the fatality of a German one point aerotower and the near fatal one point aerotow Dennis experienced on a Texas competition round behind Neal Harris under nearly identical circumstances for nearly identical reasons. Shoulda got it in the mail two months and a few days ago. (Just kidding.)

Zach and Paul explained that I couldn't jam the bar out in front of me like I do when I launch regularly...

Yeah. REGULARLY.

...that I might pop up and stall my glider (and fall to the ground and writhe in pain and then die)...

You mean the way Zack Marzec got popped up and stalled, fell to the ground, writhed in pain, and then died in the ambulance after he towed shoulders only and his Lauren Link very clearly provided protection from an excessive angle of attack a wee bit over fifteen weeks ago at Quest?

...but that I must allow myself to be pulled though the control frame a bit and then hold my arms rigid.

Zach kept saying, no, more forward, no, more than that, when I asked if my body was forward enough. Finally I just said, OK, I am launching. He said later my pitch was perfect but I was petrified for a couple of seconds wondering if I got it right.

Did you ever try developing enough of a feel for glider response to get you to the point at which you could do stuff like PULL IN when the glider was high and/or slow - regardless of where the bar was in relation to your body?

All of us first wavers were introduced to aerotowing solo, foot launch, and one point behind tugs that needed to fly a lot faster than hang gliders - especially mid Eighties hang gliders - liked to fly. And I don't remember any of us worrying about or having to be told where to hold the fuckin' bar - we all just flew the fuckin' gliders.

And you're a goddam Four now. Well, you got Steve Kroop to sign your ticket anyway.

The tow was uneventful but the bar pressure was lots more, and I already fly with half VG so I don't feel I can increase it. It was harder to follow the plane when I got high on it.

No shit.

Zach pointed out later I could just stay a little low. Actually I think it will be fine since I am strong, but it will be more difficult to tow in midday conditions, because of the bar pressure.

Really? So if a particular mode of flying is more DIFFICULT wouldn't that also make it more DANGEROUS when the shit hits the fan?

But I sure liked the clean configuration and it is much less drag. Really so much less crap hanging off my down tube.

What if you put all the crap IN your downtube?

My system was internal before Ridgely opened and bungee powered early in the 2001 season - which is well before you guys graced the hang gliding scene. And you're running your idiot mouth like it doesn't exist.

So Paul just told me he has three more goals for my next two weeks. COOL! It is very constructive for me to have these things to aim for.

Fuck Paul. He's got no goddam business setting goals for anybody else while he's flying bent pin barrel releases and Rooney Links.

Come see us soon.

No thanks.

Love
Lauren

Save it.

Hugh McElrath - 2005/03/05 02:24:13 UTC

Fuck you, Hugh.

Lauren,

I just read something in the USHGA mag about towing configurations...

2005/02
Aerotow Release Attachment Points for Wills Wing Gliders
Rob Kells

http://www.willswing.com/articles/Article.asp?reqArticleName=AerotowRelease

...and they mentioned greater risk of a lockout when towing from the shoulders.

HE mentioned lockout ONCE:

Towing without a top release will cause the base tube to be positioned much further back during tow, the glider will have increased pitch pressure, and lockouts are much more difficult to correct.

And that's bullshit 'cause lockouts - by definition - are IMPOSSIBLE to correct.

What do the folks down there say?

Who gives a flying fuck? The folk down there are all total assholes.

Lauren Tjaden - 2005/03/05 13:25:42 UTC

My understand is that since all the tow forces are on you (when towing from the shoulders), not you and your glider combined...

No matter how you tow - two point or one - ALL the force is on the glider. If you don't believe me try towing one point with a rig to cut through your suspension when you get to a couple hundred feet. The person under the glider isn't providing enough resistance to tow tension to be worth mentioning.

...that in a lockout it might be more difficult to recover...

If it's a LOCKOUT it's IMPOSSIBLE to recover. See above.

...since your shoulders will be pulled in the direction of the plane more strongly...

Bullshit.

- If you're competent to be pulled behind a tug the only thing that can lock you out is a thermal blast.

- If you get blasted sufficiently there's not a goddam thing you're gonna be able to do to prevent a lockout. Just try not to be low when it happens and equip yourself so that YOU - not your fucking fishing line - can effect a separation in time to limit the altitude loss to something survivable.

...(someone please correct me if I am wrong, since I have limited experience with this, to say the least).

- Fuck your experience. Tell me why you need ANY "experience" to understand these issues.
- Why the hell wasn't this covered in ground school? How come we've got total idiots soliciting opinions from other total idiots?

Also, the bar position is further back so you have less leverage to push it back into position than if it was further ahead of you.

Oh REALLY!!!

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8394/8696380718_787dbc0005_o.png


So you're saying that if you were ever in a situation in which your life was dependent upon getting the bar fully stuffed you just might be shit outta luck.

Like maybe if you were towing out of Quest with a Quest Link to very clearly provide protection from an excessive angle of attack and got blasted by a monster thermal at 150 feet you might not be able to hold your nose down...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg


...to a survivable attitude?

On the plus side, you have less drag and less hassle in the air stowing your tow bridle.

Yep...

http://ozreport.com/goodies.php

Oz Report's Useful Goodies

Pro tow Mini Barrel Release and 750 lb bridle, $40.

If you want two mini barrel releases (one on each side), order two of these (you'll have an extra bridle). Bridle is 750 pound Spectra.

This release won't accidently open by hitting your base tube, if you connect it to your chest tabs. It is small and easily stored. If you can't store it during flight, it is the most aerodynamic one available. The bridle is thin and gets out of your way right away. Easily stored. Also creates less drag if you don't put it away. Much stronger than your weaklink. I change bridles about once a year after about fifty tows. I switch the ends after twenty five tows.

It is small and easily stored. If you can't store it during flight, it is the most aerodynamic one available. The bridle is thin and gets out of your way right away. Easily stored. Also creates less drag if you don't put it away.

I also feel it may be easier to pin off in case of a lockout...

And you have no idea just how much I value the FEELINGS of some stupid twit with a grand total of a single one point tow in sled conditions who has no ability to learn a single goddam thing from relevant and recent fatality reports.

...because you have a bailey (for me, two of them, one on each side) and they are much closer to your center of gravity.

"I'm SO SORRY about running over those kids on the sidewalk while I was texting about dinner plans. But as you can plainly see, officer, the steering wheel WAS very close to my center of gravity at all times."

"Obviously ma'am. There was nothing you could've done to prevent this bit of unpleasantness. Here's your license and registration. Have a good day."

Reaching that handle way out to the side can be challenging in a hard turn.

No shit, Lauren.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3107
I have a tandem rating!!!

Lauren Tjaden - 2008/03/23 22:20:15 UTC

When Jim got me locked out to the right, I couldn't keep the pitch of the glider with one hand for more than a second (the pressure was a zillion pounds, more or less)...

If you read a few fatality reports...

Joe Gregor - 2004/09

There is no evidence that the pilot made an attempt to release from tow prior to the weak link break, the gate was found closed on the Wallaby-style tow release.

...you might even get the impression that reaching that handle way out to the side can be totally defeating when you really need to be flying the fucking glider. But that's not gonna deter you one tiny little bit from configuring like that for you and your passengers.

The bailey is right there.

Yeah...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3391
More on Zapata and weak link

Paul Tjaden - 2008/07/22 04:32:22 UTC

I have never had a lockout situation happen so quickly and dramatically and had no chance to release as I have always thought I could do.

Right. And if you can fight a lockout with one hand just as effectively as you can with two hands that's plenty good enough.

I would welcome hearing more expert opinions, as well.

Meaning the opinions of the assholes who have the most experience trying to swat downtube mounted Quallaby release levers and grab shoulder mounted bent pin release barrels.

I got news for ya, Lauren. There are two groups of people whose opinions you really wanna be paying attention to...

- There's a VERY long list of people who ain't around no more 'cause their release actuators were on their downtubes or near their centers of gravity. But they ain't around no more so you'll just hafta guess about their opinions were or became two seconds prior to impact.

- Then there are a very few people with functional brains who don't give flying fucks about experts and their goddam opinions 'cause they have common sense going for them and can do the freakin' math. And some of this group have done the freakin' math and the engineering to mitigate or eliminate some of the problems.

But you're not really interested in learning anything from those groups. You're just interested in hanging out with the Kool Kids and engaging in the same useless idiot conversations we've been listening to for decades.

Hugh McElrath - 2005/03/05 16:10:16 UTC

Fuck you, Hugh.

Hmmm... thanks for the thoughtful reply.

Lauren "thinking". Right.

Since I don't use a bicycle brake handle but a loop around my palm, I have even less problem pinning off than with a bailey (which I have for backup).

After...

4:00
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pC1yrdDV4sI


...the third or fourth pull anyway.

That may actually be the tie-breaker for me: right now, I can pin off without removing my hand from its position on the base tube.

But that's really not all that much of an advantage because if it were:
- the SOPS would make such a configuration mandatory
- Ridgely would have the equipment available for sale
- it would be mentioned in the excellent book, Towing Aloft, by Dennis Pagen and Bill Bryden

Towing from the shoulders I would have to find one of two bailey's possibly with a gloved hand (have to look down with the chin guard of my helmet in the way, too).

Those couldn't possibly be significant issues. Bailey's have been Industry Standard equipment for a quarter century and if there were a significantly better solution we'd all be using it already.

And everybody DO make sure to totally ignore the development Steve Kinsley's gonna announce...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=233
AT releases

Steve Kinsley - 2005/03/11 02:43:09 UTC

Winter boredom and the Oz Report (Robin Strid - 2005/01/09) resulted in my invention of "the squid" AT shoulder release. This is a two ring (or 3 - haven't decided which is better) where the final loop runs through a grommet and you hold it in your teeth. Want off? Open your mouth. When you are a hundred feet up and presumably out of danger you slide a barrel (the body of the squid) over the loop which crimps it at the grommet and you have a standard barrel release. I can hold on with my teeth all the way and not use the slider/keeper but gotta be sure I have fresh polident.

Tried it at Manquin and down in Florida. Seems to work fine. (Flew with a standard barrel on the other side just in case.) Also gets a lot of laughs. Show it to you.

...six days from the beginning and three days from the conclusion of this idiot discussion.

Roger the hassle of retrieving the tow bridle...

Which convenience is more likely to get you killed:
- skipping the preflight checks before you plop your glider on the dolly?
- flying with a one point bridle?

...and the drag of the release.

Here's an idea for that one, Hugh. Let Tad spend a couple of weeks custom building a top notch two point system into your U2, don't get around to paying him for so much as materials, then let him get a "two month suspension" for battling and demolishing Rooney and his adoring zombies on the forum.

Decisions, decisions...

Don't worry about it. Just focus a bit more on paragliding.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4829
Daniels 4/18 and/or 4/19

Ann Dunlap - 2011/04/18 23:23:27 UTC
uplandann - Harrisonburg

Will post a more detailed report later. Hugh suffered a broken leg as he was landing his PG in the main LZ. sometime around 2pm. The wind velocity was not an issue at all as it was SSE at about 5mph at the LZ. I watched his landing as far as I could until his glider was obscured by the hill, and then heard him hit the ground hard.

I reminded him to lay still. I called 911 and the ambulance arrived very shortly. He was airlifted to UVA shortly after.

He was conscious and very calm and coherent the whole time. I spoke with his wife Sallie to let her know what happened and where he is.

Send your prayers for his speedy recovery.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4830
Hugh

Hugh McElrath - 2011/04/20 01:07:27 UTC

I was observing Ann Dunlap on hang gliding yesterday at Daniels. She had her first soaring flight! I launched my paraglider after she landed. Had a good flight, got to 600 over.Came out to land after 25 minutes. LZ was light but not scary. At 20 feet the glider surged in front of me and I pounded in hard. I broke both legs at boot top with open fracture of tibia on right.Broke right wrist and shattered L1 vertebra. Ann handled the emergency superbly. ER squad immediately ordered a helicopter. I am in UVA hospital. Nine hours to reconstruct vertebra and reduce open fracture. Just had filter installed in vena cava to prevent blood clots from invading lungs. Further surgeries coming for both legs and wrist. I can wiggle my toes!! Thanks for all the good wishes - Hugh (scribe -Sallie)

Brian Vant-Hull - 2005/03/05 17:11:22 UTC

Fuck you, Brian.

You have the secondary release in conventional towing anyway (yes, I've used it)...

No you haven't. You've used your BACKUP release after your Lockout primary remained welded shut despite your best efforts - which is why Ridgely stopped selling Lockout primaries.

...and not that much more to stow, though I may be wrong.

The math on this one ain't all that tough, Brian.

I guess for competition you may worry about a little extra drag, but otherwise why bother with the extra safety issues?

When everyone's flying with Rooney Links why bother with ANY safety issues?

Paul Adamez - 2005/03/05 18:20:47 UTC
Glen Burnie, Maryland

Fuck you, Paul.

My biggest concern with the V bridle is if my Spinniker release fails...

The spinnaker shackle doesn't fail. The Industry Standard actuation "system" does.

...and I use my secondary...

If you pull it while the top end is connected it's a primary.

...and the bridle gets hung up on the caribiner on the end of the tow line. Now I am being towed straight from the hang loops, or keel, with no way of releasing, in a very bad tow configuration. Not good.

Well that's just YOUR concern. I'm sure that if that were an ACTUAL issue The Industry would be making everyone aware of it and providing primary systems which didn't fail so frequently that it's not even worthy of mention when they do.

I've been giving thought about going with the Pro Tow, especially with all the discussion on the OZ Report, but am concerned too about any increased lock out tendencies with this method. With the Pro Tow I may be more apt to release sooner if I get too out of wack...

If you get too far out of whack...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24534
It's a wrap

Lauren Tjaden - 2011/08/01 02:01:06 UTC

For whomever asked about the function of a weak link, it is to release the glider and plane from each other when the tow forces become greater than desirable -- whether that is due to a lockout or a malfunction of equipment or whatever. This can save a glider, a tow pilot, or more often, a hang glider pilot who does not get off of tow when he or she gets too far out of whack.

...your weak link will blow.

...and not try to wrestle with the situation, which may be a good thing.

Bull fucking shit. Everybody and his goddam dog knows EXACTLY the instant a tow becomes unsustainable. Everything else is equipment and reaction time. And the former is something people can actually do something about - but virtually never actually bother to. It's just so much easier to hope:
- nothing bad will happen down low
- if something bad happens down low the Rooney Link:
-- will increase the safety of the towing operation
-- won't decrease the safety of the towing operation

Jim Rooney - 2005/03/08 03:41:20 UTC

Fuck you, Jim.

There's a bit of a distinction to note here. One that is not mentioned in the USHGA article.

Nowhere near the quality of Dr. Trisa Tilletti's fourteen page article on weak links in the 2012/06 issue, was it? (I'm guessing you were totally satisfied with that one 'cause I didn't hear you objecting to anything said or omitted.)

There are two ways to use a 3 point towing system.

Or what Rob refers to as...

Towing from only the shoulder attachments without a top release is generally referred to as "Pro tow". The Sport 2, U2s and Talons may be "Pro towed" without a top release, however this method is not as easy as using a two point release as described above.

...a TWO point system.

The top towpoint can either be on the keel or on your carabiner. The differnece between these is important.

Undoubtedly.

The method described in the magazine is a keel mount.

Yeah?

U2 145, 160
- On pilot's hang loop or carabiner - Set VG to 1/2
Talon 140, 150, 160
- On pilot's hang loop or carabiner - Set VG to 1/2

Note: The higher the top tow point the better. If the glider is equipped with a DHV (longer than Wills Wing standard length by 8 inches) it is better to tie the release to the keel rather than attach it to the hang loop.

Bullshit.

Since the tow forces act both on the CG and the glider, your gliders nose gets pulled through turns.

Bullshit. You put a sideways pull on a glider it trims accordingly. It rolls opposite.

You can also reduce pitch preassure by moving the tow point further up the keel.

No shit. Who do you think needs to be told that?

Towing off the carabiner is very different in that all tow forces act on the CG.

Right. All the forces go to the "CG" and stop there. It's not like the glider feels any tension transmitted through the suspension.

The important distinction here is that it will "feel" like towing off the keel, but it acts like towing off the shoulders.

Bullshit. It's a smooth gradient - from just above the pilot to the carabiner to the top of the suspension to as far forward on the keel as it's advisable to go.

It feels like towing off the keel because your bar position is similar and the tow force is split between you and your hang strap. This is different from keel towing since the other half of that tow force is not acting on the glider.

Bullshit. Physics is way out of your league. Stay the fuck out of it.

The comment in the magazine is that the pro tow method makes lockouts harder to correct.

And I notice you don't have any problem with the concept of a lockout being CORRECTABLE.

This is in no small part due to the tow forces in a keel tow setup are trying to pull your nose out of a lockout.

Bullshit.

This is not true in a carabiner tow setup.

Bullshit.

The difference between the carabiner tow and a two point shoulder tow is that the tow force is no longer split. You get it all. This changes your bar position and you feel all the tow force.

It's transmitted through your harness and suspension. That doesn't mean you feel it. What feels it is the glider. And the glider always feels one hundred percent of it. And it always knows exactly how much and from what direction and reacts accordingly.

This is not pitch preassure, just pulling preassure. The difference in how your glider flies is none. All tow forces are still routed through the CG.

All tow forces are routed to the keel no matter what you do.

Something of note between the keel tow and carabiner tow... in the rare event of becoming stuck on the top towpoint only (primary fails to release, secondary releases the shoulders but not the bridal), the carabiner tow will still be pulling of the CG if you're towing off the carabiner, the keel tow will be trying to tumble you.

- Bullshit. There's no tendency for the glider to tumble until the attachment keel point is moved forward from the hang point.

- The higher above the pilot the more he's fucked control-wise.

- There's no need or excuse for flying with a primary that has the slightest probability of failure. That issue is one hundred percent preventable.

In the end, it's all a matter of tradeoffs.

Bullshit. There's a right way to do this and a whole shitload of shoddy and dangerous compromises. And any "advantages" accrued from going suboptimal are so negligible they don't merit discussion.

None of the systems are failsafe and each has its stronger and weaker points.

None of the crap YOU Industry motherfuckers makes available is failsafe. But towing equipment has been engineered to the point at which posts about it would be as rare as posts on problems with VG systems.

$.02USD
Jim

Fuck you and your two cents. And I'll really be looking forward to your unhooked launch a couple weeks shy of a year from now - Mister Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney.

Partial pooch screw...

Also, the bar position is further back so you have less leverage to push it back into position than if it was further ahead of you.

I let myself get tripped up by the turbulence generated by the clash between reality / common sense stuff and Lauren's babblings.

She's not saying that Zack didn't have the CONTROL RANGE to hold the nose down to a survivable attitude. She's just saying that he had "LESS LEVERAGE".

It was really just as safe to be towing one point - he just needed to be using more muscle to achieve the same effect.

http://www.willswing.com/articles/Article.asp?reqArticleName=AerotowRelease
Aerotow Release Attachment Points for Wills Wing Gliders

Towing from only the shoulder attachments without a top release is generally referred to as "Pro tow". The Sport 2, U2s and Talons may be "Pro towed" without a top release, however this method is not as easy as using a two point release as described above. Towing without a top release will cause the base tube to be positioned much further back during tow, the glider will have increased pitch pressure, and lockouts are much more difficult to correct.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25435
Raunchy Day At The Ridge + Release Failure

Terry Ryan - 2012/03/12 03:32:24 UTC

For me, on my Sport 2, a ProTow setup is absolutely out of the question. I'd have to have the bar down around my waist.

It's not as EASY as towing with a two point bridle and lockouts will be much more difficult to "correct" but it's still perfectly safe, right Rob? Especially for someone who's...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/15 06:48:18 UTC

Davis has been at an around all this plenty long enough to understand what's what and who's who.

...been at an around all this plenty long enough to understand what's what and who's who.

Hypothesis...

There are ZERO instances of any hang gliding establishment shits stating that one point aerotowing is DANGEROUS. It's just more DIFFICULT and requires more effort and skill to achieve the same level of safety a Hang Two muppet can get with a two point bridle.

And there will NEVER be a safety advisory issued regarding one point aerotowing. Anything that a large percentage of the hang gliding population is doing is, by definition, perfectly safe - for anyone who has the Right Stuff of course.

http://www.ozreport.com/9.133
Lesson from an aerotow accident report

USHGA Accident Report Summary
Pilot: Holly Korzilius
Reporter: Steve Wendt, USHGA Instructor # 19528
Date : 5/29/05

Summary: I observed the accident from a few hundred yards away, but could clearly see launch and the aero tow was coming towards my area so that I had a full view of the flight. I was at the wreckage in a few seconds and afterwards gathered the information that helps understand the results of some unfortunate poor decisions of the injured pilot.

The pilot launched at 12:15 while conditions were just starting to become thermally, with just a slight crosswind of maybe 20 degrees with winds of 8 to 12 mph NNW. The pilot had flown here via AT more than 50 times.

Holly immediately had control problems right off the dolly and completed 3 oscilations before it took her 90 degrees from the tow vehicle upon when the tug pilot hit the release and Holly continued turning away from the tow in a fairly violent exchange of force . Holly pulled in to have control speed and then began rounding out , but there was not enough altitude and she hit the ground before she could do so. She was barely 100 feet when she was locked out in a left hand turn. At that time, she was banked up over 60 degrees.

The basebar hit the ground first, nose wires failed from the impact, and at the same time she was hitting face first. She had a full face helmet, which helped reduce her facial injuries but could not totallly prevent them. The gliders wings were level with the ground when it made contact with the ground.

First aid was available quickly and EMT response was appropriate .

Now, why did Holly not have control? Holly has two gliders, a Moyes Sonic, and the Moyes Litesport that she was flying during the accident. She has flown here in much stronger conditions before. and has always flown safely , on both of her gliders, but usually chooses her Sonic if air is questionable, or if she hasn't flown in a while.

Holly for some reason chose to fly her Litesport, she has always towed it with proper releases and weak links and usually seeked advice from me when unsure of something.

This time she couldn't find her v-bridle top line with her weak link installed for her priimary keel release. She chose to tow anyway, and just go from the shoulders, which to my knowledge she had never done before, nor had she been trained to understand potential problems. This could have been done with a short clinic and if we thought it a possibility, been done under supervised conditions in the evening air. Our dollys have check lists for many things, one is that you have a proper weak link installed. She had no weak link as it was normally on the upper line that she couldn't find, and we can only assume that she didn't even consider the fact that she now didn't have a weak link.

These mistakes caused her to have too much bar pressure, farther in bar position, she was cross controlling, and had no weak link. She hadn't flown that glider in a while and changed these towing aspects that I believe all combined to make a violant combination. The pilot also stayed on tow too long. She should have released after the first, or even the second oscilation when she realized that things were not correct. Failing to do so put the glider in a locked out situation that she could no longer control.

Real bummer Zack Marzec had never been trained to understand the potential problems of just going from his shoulders at one of those short clinics at Blue Sky, isn't it Steve?

Or do you find that incident as totally mystifying as the rest of your Flight Park Mafia colleagues? I guess that WOULD explain you totally abstaining from any discussion on it - the way you do regarding any incident that doesn't happen on your own turf when you're compelled to write it off as pilot error.

And when one of your students runs off the ramp at Whitwell without the glider you sold him... Hey, that was at WHITWELL. Not MY problem.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1166
Thoughts on responsibility...

Scott Wilkinson - 2005/10/05 14:10:56 UTC

We visited Steve Wendt yesterday, who was visibly choked up over Bill's death. For Steve, it all comes down to one thing: you've got to hook in. Period.

Asshole.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11677
Carabineers and their cousins

Davis Straub - 2008/04/24 14:15:40 UTC

What is the right kind of ring at the end of the line? (Quest Air, Groveland, Florida, USA)

Jim Prahl discussed with me the history of the efforts at Quest Air and Lookout Mountain for the best way to connect the pilot to the tow line.

- That must've taken a good ten or fifteen seconds?

- Yeah...

http://ozreport.com/12.081
Weaklinks - the HGFA rules

Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTC
Hughenden Airport, Queensland

Here is the requirement from the 2007 Worlds local rules (which I wrote) for weaklinks:

Pilots must use weaklinks provided by the meet organizers and in a manner approved by the meet organizers. All weaklinks will be checked and use of inappropriate weaklinks will require the pilot to go to the end of the launch line to change the weaklink.

Weaklinks will consist of a single loop of Cortland 130 lb Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line and should be placed at one end of a shoulder bridle.

At the 2008 Forbes Flatlands Greenspot for the first time was used as the standard weaklink material (thanks in large part to the efforts of Bobby Bailey). We applaud these efforts to improve the safety of aerotowing by using a better weaklink material.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 14:04:52 UTC

We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year.

Right.

A quest that continues to this day.

Yeah. Seventeen years after the advent of mainstream Dragonfly aerotowing and you assholes are still trying to figure out how to hook a glider up behind a tug so that it:
- trims safely
- stays on tow when you want or need it to
- gets off tow when you want or need it to

I don't know who ya'll had for ancestors but I one hundred percent guarantee you they were nowhere nearby when the wheel was invented.

The problem is that when the bridle line is released from a barrel release...

Assuming you've been able to get to it and pry it open.

...at one of the shoulders (or a V-bridle line is released from the keel)...

Yeah, let's make one point the default (and put two point in parentheses).

...the line flies out and over the ring at the end of the tow rope. As it lays across the ring it can wrap around the ring and tie itself to the ring. Various measures have been taken to make sure that this doesn't happen.

Excluding, of course, making the one point bridle so short and fat...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aerotowrelease/8313526097/


...that it's physically impossible for it to tie itself to the ring.

First it was thought that it would be better if the ring was bigger.

Really? The first thought I had was to make the bridle so short and fat that it would be physically impossible for it to tie itself to the ring.

So they put on bigger rings and found that it was in fact easier to get a wrap if the ring was bigger. That the smaller the ring, the less likely the bridle was to wrap around the ring.

The explanation, as they found out, was that if the ring (or carabineer) presented less material essentially perpendicular to the tow rope, the less likely the bridle line was to snag on the ring. The small ring with the sharper radius reduced the amount of material perpendicular to the tow line.

One option the Jim and Quest used was to make a tear dropped shaped loop at the end of the toe line with an aluminum tube or plastic. The tear drop shape sheds the bridle lines when they are released. This is what Tracy and Lisa use at Cloud 9. Quest found this to be a very safe and practical tow rope end.

If you have a V-shaped carabineer with the narrow end at the tow rope end of the line then the two sides of the carabineer are less likely to cause the bridle to snag as it slides back and off these sides. Oval shaped carabineers are more likely to allow the bridle to wrap around them as they mimic the larger round rings. So the Quest Air people went looking for and started to use more V-shaped carabineers.

And since they had perfected their releases and the standard aerotow weak link eons prior they had tons of free time to pursue this issue.

These types of carabineers are also more common now as the carabineer manufacturer's have shaped their bineers to put the load on the non opening side of the bineer.

- How do the carabineers' manufacturers spell "carabineer"?
- I guess that solved the problem y'all were having with blowing the bineers open when the gate side failed.

Quest was using small rings at the end of their tow ropes until there became the need to very quickly attach pilots to the tow ropes at competitions. Rings required that the pilots mess with their bridles to undo them and put one end through the ring. This is both a safety issue and an issue of getting everyone off quickly.

Since when did Quest develop an interest in safety issues?

Quest now uses very inexpensive light non locking aluminum carabineers, the kind that often are used on key chains. These are much cheaper and lighter than the ones I linked to in the first article about Bernie's accident. Carabineers like this:


http://www.printglobe.com/automotive-products/key-chains/budget-key-chains/key-chains-carabiners

Notice the shape. Quest Air personnel pick them up by the handful at ACE hardware. They are on both ends of the tow rope. As soon as they get worn, they are replaced.

Yeah. Things could get really ugly if one of those things...

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8394/8696380718_787dbc0005_o.png

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg


...failed at the wrong time. Hard to express just how much admiration I have for the dedication to safety those guys all have.

The cheap aluminum carabineers that Quest Air now uses with its spectra bridle systems...

SPECTRA bridle systems?

Dr. Trisa Tilletti - 2012/06

A Spectra bridle has almost no stretch, so sharp, impact loads are transferred directly to the weak link, while a polypro bridle has a reasonable amount off stretch and can act as a shock absorber and reduce the intensity of the impact load.

Without shock absorption, a Spectra bridle acts somewhat like an impact wrench on the weak link.

Doesn't a Spectra bridle act somewhat like an impact wrench on the weak link? I'da thunk that with a top notch aerotow professional like Russell Brown...

Dr. Trisa Tilletti - 2012/06

Russell Brown, a founder of Quest Air in Florida and a well-known Dragonfly tug pilot, is also a sailplane pilot, tug pilot, and A&P mechanic for a large commercial sailplane towing operation in Florida. He told us that, like us, he has never seen a sailplane weak link break, either. Russell owned the first 914-powered Dragonfly ever made--he helped us build the second one, which we still fly. He is the one who, many years ago, showed us the method for making a WT weak link and suggested we use polypropylene rather than Spectra for hang glider V-bridles.

...down there at Quest they'd have all known enough to use polypro.

...with barrel releases have been used successfully with thousands of tows without incident.

So how come a year later at Ridgely...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up

Jim Rooney - 2009/11/02 18:58:13 UTC

Oh it happens.
I have, all the guys I work with have.
(Our average is 1 in 1,000 tows)

Oh yeah... an other fun fact for ya... ya know when it's far more likely to happen? During a lockout. When we're doing lockout training, the odds go from 1 in 1,000 to over 50/50.

...they're ending up tied to the tow ring once in a thousand times when they don't need to release and over half the time in simulations of circumstances when they REALLY need to release?

Jim discussed with me the bridles that he made from hollow spectra. He said that one doesn't want to have a build up of a bump on the spectra material where it is spliced (see the HGFA accident report linked to earlier).

http://ozreport.com/12.080

What he did to avoid this is splice the spectra line all the way back to the splice on the non released side. This meant that there was no "bump" where the splice ended where it went through the carabineer, as that part of the bridle never went through the carabineer.

That sounds like a really good idea.

http://ozreport.com/pub/images/P1020740.jpg

http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7178/13949081892_98e6ba1113_o.jpg


Wish I'd thought of doing something like that.

So this is what Quest undoubtedly uses...

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8394/8696380718_787dbc0005_o.png


...for all of their tows.

I wonder why nobody else is.

I sell a bridle made from very thin Spectra or Vectran. Jim prefers the thicker Spectra, thinking that it is less likely to wrap around the ring.

Oh. He PREFERS thicker Spectra because he THINKS it's less likely to wrap. But there's really no evidence, data, logic to support the hypothesis.

Our...

Who the fuck do you mean by "OUR"? The Royal "Our" - meaning...

We applaud these efforts to improve the safety of aerotowing by using a better weaklink material.

...just you? Or does Rooney take your dick out of his mouth long enough to agree with whatever you say to make it an ACTUAL plural?

...experience with the thin Vectran or Spectra...

http://ozreport.com/goodies.php

...is that it has not wrapped around the carabineer or ring.

GREAT!!! So obviously:
- there's no advantage whatsoever to using a thick, stiff, uniform bridle
- Jim Prahl is totally full of shit eliminating the bulges at the ends of the bridle
- the cheap shit you peddle leaves no room whatsoever for real improvement.

Again, I have a direct personal and minor financial interest in the issues raised by this discussion.

No shit. And it's probably not a good idea for anyone...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31383
Enough of this.

Davis Straub - 2013/03/12 18:32:37 UTC

Okay, folks, this forum us beginning to turn into a cesspool.

Stop it now or I start kicking people out of here.

...to challenge you on any of it.

Bill Jacques - 2008/04/24 15:18:43 UTC
Boca Raton

Is this the same thing that Skydiver Bob was making (and I have bought and used many times without incident)?

There's plenty you shits you can use and do thousands of times without incident. That don't make it safe or smart.

Or are we talking about a whole nother thing?

I think that this issue of "wrapping" was recently explained to me once by Tracy Tillman as much more probable when a "thin" line is used.

Did you really need something like that EXPLAINED to you?

Apparently, you do not necessarily agree with this?

Who gives a flying fuck who agrees or disagrees with a simple common sense issue like this?

Good write up. Thanx.

Now pull your nose out of his ass and be on about your business.

BTW - Tracy also told me that he has run "tests" at his park regarding pro-tow vs. two point...

You're supposed to call it three point in Davis's Glorious Presence.

...and the "tow box" is much wider with two point.

The "tow box" in which no harm can befall you? The Cone of Safety of which Zack Marzec remained tragically ignorant?

I have talked with several advanced pilots about this and they all seem to think opposite. I'm wondering, could it be a difference regarding tow speeds and the performance aspect of the wing (the more advanced the glider the better it will perform on tow with pro-tow). Well, I guess that's a whole nother topic.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30912
Death at Quest Air

Davis Straub - 2008/04/24 16:31:39 UTC

Yes, diver Bob makes them for me.

Fuck Diver Bob (Maloney).

Bill Jacques - 2008/04/24 17:14:02 UTC

Actually I use your thin line on my harness, than the thicker Spectra from your thin line, and around the tow ring and up to my keel.

Yeah, it's not like there's any danger of the secondary bridle fouling in the bottom eye of the primary.

I'm such a rebel, huh ? (Good thing you editorially exposed your "financial interest" in the write-up. You must be making a fortune off this big ticket, high demand item.)

He's not making a lot of money off that crap. But it's vitally important for him and his cronies from a political standpoint to make sure that towing equipment forever remains as shoddy as possible - the way it was in 1992.

Remind me never to go into business with you.

You're already in business with him. You kissed his ass and let him slide instead of calling him out.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32324
Control Bar Position At Trim

NMERider - 2013/06/05 16:33:54 UTC

The downtubes on the Sport 2 seem to have a lot more rake than the Freedom so flaring has never been an issue for even the shortest pilots I've known to fly one. I've never known pushing out to thermal tightly to be an issue either for short pilots. But if the OP wants his bar moved back all he needs to do is write and email to Steve Pearson and order a modified set of fore/aft wires.

Caveat: There will be a corresponding loss of ability to pull in. This was never a problem on my Freedom with the bar moved back four inches but I want to mention it. You can always swap the old wires back in.

Caveat... That's a warning, right?

I know that was never a problem on your Freedom but can you imagine a situation in which a loss of ability to pull in WOULD be a problem? Doesn't towing one point...



http://www.flickr.com/photos/meaneyman/130742003/

...put the bar back a lot farther than four inches?

Towing Aloft - 1998/01

Single-Point Bridle

An optional type of bridle for use by experienced pilots on advanced gliders is the single-point bridle. This bridle consists of the simple shoulder line described above and all towing forces are on the pilot's harness shoulder straps. With this method, the pilot is pulled forward through the control bar somewhat so the control bar is not in its normal trim free flying position.

If you were towing one point and hit really strong lift coming out of the field...

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8394/8696380718_787dbc0005_o.png


http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Mark Frutiger - 2013/02/08 19:12:21 UTC

Zack hit the lift a few seconds after I did. He was high and to the right of the tug and was out of my mirror when the weak ling broke.

...wouldn't that make it a bit difficult to hold the nose down?

Well, I guess if you're an experienced pilot on an advanced glider that really shouldn't be much of a problem.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

NMERider - 2013/02/19 22:56:19 UTC

I will be prepared for a loss of towing thrust (for any reason) at any point during the tow operation.

Sure ya will, Jonathan. And that loss of ability to pull in won't ever be a problem because you're an experienced pilot on an advanced glider. Zack's accident was...

NMERider - 2013/02/03 02:38:49 UTC

So far it has been described as a fluke accident.

...just a fluke.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question

Jim Rooney - 2008/10/29 16:20:20 UTC

Eventually... when you're really comfortable towing.... you can start protowing (shoulder only).

Yeah Kirk. When you're really COMFORTABLE towing you can start pro towing (shoulder only). Just like when you're really COMFORTABLE landing...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27086
Steve Pearson on landings

Steve Pearson - 2012/03/28 23:26:05 UTC

I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.

...you can safely fly your approaches with your hands on the downtubes at shoulder or ear height.

Just make sure you always use a Rooney Link...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 10:40:24 UTC

Is a weaklink going to save your ass? Who knows? But it's nice to stack the deck in your favour.

...to stack the deck in your "favour". (Jim really enjoys showing everyone at every opportunity how British Commonwealth he's become.) That's the ONE element of the towing system that can't be varied. It's got a HUGE track record and there's just no predicting what could happen if we tried something else. Tugs, gliders, pilots, runways, conditions, releases, bridles, wheels, harnesses, helmets, eye protection, parachutes... Go nuts. Just don't mess with that fishing line.

And keep flying at Ridgely. Those folk are SUPERB at getting you comfortable with whatever they're telling you, putting you up on, and having you do.

P.S. Oh. And don't worry about the fact that using a 130 pound weak link on your one point bridle is equivalent using a 150 pound weak link on a two point bridle. It's the accepted standard irrespective of configuration and physics.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29543
wind gradient theory -- trim etc

Steve Seibel - 2013/07/18 01:06:31 UTC

Has anyone else noticed that a glider seems to trim more nose-high when "kiting" with hang strap tight and pilot's feet on ground, than in actual flight?

Maybe because the tips are in slower-moving air, due to wind gradient, in the ground-kiting situation?

Was at the beach last week and noticed how powerful the gradient was, would run along on the beach and then push out and then go ZOOMING up into the gradient, then come plummeting down losing airspeed as I dropped and PLUNK down hard on the sand, with the base bar thumping down onto the ground...

The gradient would have implications for roll balance in crosswind also. More later...

NMERider - 2013/07/18 02:48:04 UTC

Steve,

When kiting, the glider is usually at min sink or less and the L/D is infinity.

Bullshit. The L/D has absolutely nothing to do with groundspeed.

It's similar to being towed by a winch but in level flight and not climbing. Take a look at any glider under winch tow in a training video.

What pilots may not realize is that our gliders are extremely nose high compared to other aircraft as a rule and that we just don't notice it.

The dumb sonsabitches sure notice when you suddenly subtract the tow force. But regardless of how hard they crash they continue to insist on referring to the result as an inconvenience.

When you're kiting the glider in a twelve mile per hour wind you're resisting the drag of the glider which is pulling it backwards. It would be the same as if you were running at twelve miles per hour in no wind and pulling the glider forward through the hang strap.

The higher the glider's lift to drag ratio the less you'll need to resist while kiting / effort you'll hafta put into running in no wind.

The glider is feeling a gravity vector pulling it down and a your resistance or running effort pulling it forward. All it knows is the resultant of those two vectors and it thinks that gravity has increased and shifted forward and trims (up) accordingly.

It's being towed.

And it's too fuckin' bad that that didn't start to get understood until 1979 and soon enough to beat Donnell from coming in and reinventing aviation from scratch.

Back at:

http://www.kitestrings.org/post5257.html#p5257

there was, until 2013/10/28 04:18:00 UTC (last night) a passage which read:

Zack C - 2011/06/16 03:14:35 UTC

I've never aerotowed pilot-only...

Yeah, we need to do something about that.

...but it is my understanding that this configuration pulls the pilot forward significantly, limiting the amount he can pull in further.

but now reads:

Zack C - 2011/06/16 03:14:35 UTC

I've never aerotowed pilot-only but it is my understanding that this configuration pulls the pilot forward significantly, limiting the amount he can pull in further.

I had copied and pasted from:
http://www.kitestrings.org/post445.html#p445
and neglected to edit out my comment.

While I'm a big proponent pushing comfort levels and emergency drills and simulations, adequate safety margins must, of course, be maintained at all times.

I still advise people flying higher performance gliders to give one point towing a shot or two in order to advance skill level and get a feel for what would happen in the very remote event that one would find oneself still on tow with a wrapped two point bridle for any measurable amount of time BUT...

Aerotowing one point in thermal conditions is TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE - regardless of how many hundreds of thousands of times it's been gotten away with just fine. As Zack Marzec demonstrated so dramatically on the afternoon of 2013/02/02, if/when a pro toad is sufficiently blasted he can be one:
- front or back end weak link pop
- accidental release
- good decision made in the interest of his safety
away from a fatal whipstall into:
-- the ground; or
-- a tumble into the ground

That's not an acceptable safety margin - that's a dice roll.

Zack C - 2013/08/05 22:44:16 UTC

From what I've heard, Ben is only aerotowing two point now.

Don't start off with a compromised aircraft if there's any chance you might really need its full range of certified capabilities.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22233
Looking for pro-tow release

Zack C - 2011/06/16 03:14:35 UTC

I've never aerotowed pilot-only but it is my understanding that this configuration pulls the pilot forward significantly, limiting the amount he can pull in further.

Davis Straub - 2011/06/16 05:11:44 UTC

Incorrect understanding.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7vnU2O4ueE

03-02421
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7200/14097626583_03972773c6_o.png