Kite Strings

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34243
Fatal HG crash in Tres Pinos CA 4-3-2016

Mark G. Forbes - 2016/04/06 16:41:47 UTC

There was a fatal crash on Sunday at the training site in Tres Pinos, near Hollister. The H1-rated pilot apparently turned away from the line, locked out and failed to release. An investigation is under way to review the facts and produce an accident report.

Please be careful out there. We have lost four pilots already this year; a towing accident in Florida, a mid-air at McClure, a speed wing at Jungfrau in Switzerland and now this training accident.

There was a fatal crash on Sunday...

Your cover-up machinery was able to keep a total lid on it for three days? Gotta say... I'm pretty damned impressed. You guys are totally amazing doing your jobs. Decades of practice. So I guess you've been able to work out a good story and have all the players memorize it. (How many times does the word "typical" appear?)

...at the training site in Tres Pinos, near Hollister.

1. Was there any training on Sunday at the fatal crashing site in Tres Pinos, near Hollister?

2. AGAIN?! No, wait. Lin...

109-15221
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8615/16487544910_41f57852ac_o.png


...was able to...

164-20729
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8649/16488797369_9b8f9f9d89_o.png


...get his parachute open...

218-51222
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8652/16536321118_1ab1f5680d_o.png


... a few seconds before impact and Scott...

http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1483/26207707785_6ae87e9ddd_o.jpg


...only got two thirds killed.

The H1-rated pilot...

Was he older than the H0-rated student pilot who suffered fatal injuries 345 miles to the ESE at Jean Lake a year plus ten days ago?

...apparently turned away from the line...

Gee. Wonder why he'd do something like that. Too complacent? Wasn't focused enough?

...locked out and failed to release.

1. Probably thought he could fix a bad thing and didn't wanna start over.

2. Must've been using a Tad-O-Link. Those things almost never break when they're supposed to.

3. I thought Pat used state-of-the-art equipment. A Birrenator...

020-10819
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8665/16052643454_ef408619ca_o.png


...which you only disabled after you got through the kill zone and which automatically released the glider if you failed to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon).

4. Whatsamattah? Only had time for...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30306
Non-fatal crash in Tres Pinos, CA

Scott Howard - 2014/11/06 16:06:31 UTC

...the best i can do for now is a clip of the day b4 when i told the instructor about release problem. (still released by normal method but had to yank 3 times on release to get it to release.)

...TWO yanks on the release to get it to release?

An investigation is under way...

1. WE WANT MITCH! WE WANT MITCH! WE WANT MITCH!

2. Oh. You've had time to get the investigation under way but are only admitting to us now that anything happened. Was THIS:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30306
Non-fatal crash in Tres Pinos, CA

Richard Palmon - 2016/04/06 06:16:22 UTC

I found out yesterday that there was an incident. Found out this evening that the incident was, is worse case scenario. I don't have specific details.

...the post that forced your hand? (Sounds like a bunch of other players were in major suppression mode as well.)

...to review the facts...

Rather, of course, than DETERMINING the facts. Just to REVIEW the "facts" Pat's already prepared for public consumption.

...and produce an accident report.

Review the facts and produce an accident report. Implying, but not stating that the accident report will be:
- based on the "facts" that were REVIEWED
- made available to the membership at some point within the next fifty years

Please be careful out there.

Fuck yeah! That asshole pretty obviously wasn't being careful out there. Probably text messaging one of his school buddies about the team lineups for Monday afternoon's big kickball game.

We have lost four pilots already this year; a towing accident in Florida...

That we've still heard nothing about other than what we've been able to pull from the mainstream news media.

...a mid-air at McClure...

Which preceded the towing inconvenience by three days. So why are you giving this out of order?

...a speed wing at Jungfrau in Switzerland and now this training accident.

Well. At least we all already know...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=32681
Tandem crash in LV (speculation thread)

Mark G. Forbes - 2015/04/01 03:46:29 UTC

Among ourselves, we agree (via the waiver) that we understand we're engaged in a risky sport that can cause serious injury or death. We each agree that we are personally and individually responsible for our own safety. If we have an accident and get hurt, we agree in advance that it is solely our own fault, no matter what the circumstances might be. We sign at the bottom saying that we fully understand these things, that we accept them, and that we know we are giving up the right to sue anybody if an accident happens.

Those are fundamental tenets of our sport. We are all individually responsible for ourselves and our safety. We need to see and avoid all other pilots, avoid crashing into people or property and use good judgment when flying. If someone doesn't agree with those principles, then they don't need to be involved in our sport.

...whose fault it was and that the tow operator did everything totally flawlessly.

Karl Allmendinger - 2016/04/02 03:47:53 UTC

Tad Eareckson or Heath Robinson?

So what was that, rocket scientist pigfucker? About fifteen hours before one of you Mission dickheads pulled this guy to his death on one of your cheap placebo releases that are impossible to hook up wrong?

http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1471/26163846976_0008ccc8ab_o.png


Did you explain to him how to use his GPS so's he'd know which way to fly? Are you sure you got through to him adequately?

OK, everybody. Y'all know the drill... Listen very carefully to all the stuff that ISN'T being said.

This sport is NOT sustainable with you dickheads year after year redoubling your efforts to do everything wrong. I was watching it explode in the early years and I've lived long enough to be watching it implode at about the same speed. May all y'all rot in hell.

P.S. As of this post no replies to that post. Got everybody very well trained now, dontchya Mark?

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34243
Fatal HG crash in Tres Pinos CA 4-3-2016

NMERider - 2016/04/06 18:55:53 UTC

---
No more accidents. Let this be our creed.

Try changing your tag to "Shit happens." You're unlikely to get WORSE results.

Ryan Voight - 2016/04/06 19:19:24 UTC

I do not mean to imply that losing 4 pilots in 3 months isn't bad enough... but I would call attention to two of these losses being STUDENTS, suffering fatal accidents WHILE UNDER INSTRUCTION.

Death is an unfortunate part of life... and hang gliding is dangerous. But needless death, occurring within what should be the most highly controlled environment, and the most closely monitored flight activities.... I have no words.

Sympathy and condolences to the family (familieS)...

I do not mean to imply that losing 4 pilots in 3 months...

Three hang glider drivers in the space of precisely five weeks.

...isn't bad enough...

Depends a bit upon what your goal is. Mine's to take down u$hPa and the commercial industry.

...but I would call attention to two of these losses being STUDENTS, suffering fatal accidents...

"Suffering fatal INJURIES" is the stock terminology.

...WHILE UNDER INSTRUCTION.

Or, perhaps, BECAUSE OF BEING UNDER INSTRUCTION.

Death is an unfortunate part of life...

This wasn't "part of life". This was a KNOWN total douchebag operation whose response to every crash they ever had was to make equipment and procedures more dangerous.

...and hang gliding is dangerous.

No. Nobody ever got scratched hang gliding. This guy suffered fatal injuries as a consequence of stopping hang gliding.

But needless death, occurring within what should be the most highly controlled environment...

Packed with equipment and procedures compromising the student's control to the max extent possible.

- He was foot launching instead of using the dolly.

- His hands were on the control tubes the whole flight and lockout. (Rather strange that he died instead of just breaking a leg or two, dontchya think?)

- He was equipped with a Birrenator one hundred percent guaranteed to blow him off tow at the worst possible time, with the glider climbing hard in a near stall situation.

- He had a cheap "idiot proof" two string "release" he didn't have a snowball's chance in hell of getting to and which would've been totally useless under any kind of load anyway.

- Gawd only knows what he was using as the focal point of his safe towing system.

- There was no guillotine on the winch.

- And they're telling us absolutely nothing about the asshole on the gas.

...and the most closely monitored...

...and poorly run...

...flight activities.... I have no words.

Good.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29984
What happened to the org?

Mike Lake - 2013/09/26 18:59:57 UTC

On the other hand there are plenty of people who fly lots but still manage to spew out the most incredible and dangerous garbage to others.

This includes some of the "professional" people who work in the industry and are therefore able to regard themselves as such.
They really believe they have a monopoly on knowledge and when finding themselves on the losing side of a debate resort to the old standby "This is what we do so fuck off you weekender".

I say good riddance to those nauseating, know it all, self indulgent "professionals" who have banished themselves from this site.

2013/09/26 19:19:24 UTC - 3 thumbs up - NMERider
2013/09/26 20:30:40 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Rick Cavallaro
2013/09/27 01:07:47 UTC -3 thumbs up - Sam Kellner
2013/09/26 20:02:33 UTC -3 thumbs up - John Borton
2013/09/26 20:42:36 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Brian Scharp

You've had way too many in the past.

Sympathy and condolences to the family (familieS)...

I'm sure they'll greatly appreciate it. And let's show them proper respect by not speculating about anything.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14230
pro tow set-up

Ryan Voight - 2009/11/03 05:24:31 UTC

It works best in a lockout situation... if you're banked away from the tug and have the bar back by your belly button... let it out. Glider will pitch up, break weaklink, and you fly away.

During a "normal" tow you could always turn away from the tug and push out to break the weaklink... but why would you?

Have you never pondered what you would do in a situation where you CAN'T LET GO to release? I'd purposefully break the weaklink, as described above. Instant hands free release

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=18868
Almost lockout

Ryan Voight - 2010/09/07 02:50:00 UTC

Weak link in truck towing WILL (read: should) still break in a lockout situation... but as everyone has already pointed out, it takes a lot longer because the glider can continue to pull line off the winch.

There is a limit to how fast line can come off the winch though... so the forces still build up, and the weaklink still fails.

Asshole.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34243
Fatal HG crash in Tres Pinos CA 4-3-2016

piano_man - 2016/04/06 19:54:31 UTC
Georgia

I know of at least one advanced pilot who doesn't tow because he feels it's too dangerous.

The way Matt runs things he's right.

This pilot also will not fly if it's too windy @ 12 mph plus.

Must be nice to be able to be that picky about how one gets one's airtime.

So sorry to hear about this, my condolences to all the family and friends.

Eh... She died doing what she loved.

Brian Scharp - 2016/04/06 20:12:25 UTC

Ryan Voight - 2016/04/06 19:19:24 UTC

...suffering fatal accidents WHILE UNDER INSTRUCTION.

More specifically, towing instruction.

Or lack thereof.

2016/04/09 04:04:15 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Christopher LeFay

Dan DeWeese - 2016/04/06 20:37:43 UTC

I thought a linkknife could be rigged so that if the AofA gets too high or too far offline, it cuts away the tow line and frees the glider. Am I mistaken?

Lessee...

- Half a dozen literacy errors for starters.

- Yes, it DOES cut away the towline and free the glider if the AOA gets too high - just like a Rooney Link.

- Define too far off line and tell me what the glider's gonna do if...

Wills Wing / Blue Sky / Ryan Voight Productions - 2007/03

NEVER CUT THE POWER...
Reduce Gradually
Increase Gradually

...the power is totally cut within the space of a millisecond.

- She WAS equipped with a Birrenator and it appears that AT BEST it didn't help her much.

2016/04/06 21:03:03 UTC - 3 thumbs up - NMERider

Brad Barkley - 2016/04/06 20:51:07 UTC

Brian Scharp - 2016/04/06 20:12:25 UTC

More specifically, towing instruction.

Depends on the method and more so on the instructor. I learned via scooter tow from Steve Wendt at Blue Sky, and it could not have been any safer.

Funny that Steve Exceptionally-Knowledgeable Wendt never seems to have enough spare time to be able to comment on any of these incidents and issues.

2016/04/09 04:04:54 UTC - 1 thumb up -- Christopher LeFay

NMERider - 2016/04/06 21:11:00 UTC

I just fired off a letter to Peter Birren for his input on the utility of the Link Knife in this situation.

How 'bout the utilities of the Linknife in THESE:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/6726
Weaklinks

Peter Birren - 2008/10/27 23:41:49 UTC

You trying to tell me the pilot had time to release? Not a prayer.

I know about this type of accident because it happened to me, breaking 4 ribs and my larynx... and I was aerotowing using a dolly. The sh*t happened so fast there was no room for thought much less action. But I wasn't dragged because the weaklink did its job and broke immediately on impact.

Imagine if you will, just coming off the cart and center punching a thermal which takes you instantly straight up while the tug is still on the ground. Know what happens? VERY high towline forces and an over-the-top lockout. You'll have both hands on the basetube pulling it well past your knees but the glider doesn't come down and still the weaklink doesn't break (.8G). So you pull whatever release you have but the one hand still on the basetube isn't enough to hold the nose down and you pop up and over into an unplanned semi-loop. Been there, done that... at maybe 200 feet agl.

Peter's just another idiot dope on a rope depending on luck, altitude, and/or magic fishing for his survival and health. And there hasn't been a punctuation mark's worth of discussion on anything in his inbred little cult since a week before last Christmas.

Brian Scharp - 2016/04/06 21:11:23 UTC

Dan DeWeese - 2016/04/06 20:37:43 UTC

I thought a linkknife could be rigged so that if the AofA gets too high or too far offline, it cuts away the tow line and frees the glider.

Doug Hildreth - 1990/09

1990/07/05 - Eric Aasletten - 24 - Intermediate - 2-3 years - UP Axis - Hobbs, New Mexico - Platform tow - Fatal / Head

Reasonably proficient intermediate with over a year of platform tow experience was launching during tow meet. Homemade ATOL copy with winch on the front of the truck. Immediately after launch, the glider pitched up sharply with nose very high. Apparently the angle caused an "auto release" of the tow line from the pilot, who completed a hammerhead stall and dove into the ground. Observer felt that a dust devil, invisible on the runway, contributed to or caused the relatively radical nose-up attitude. Also of concern was the presumed auto release which, if it had not occurred, might have prevented the accident. Severe head injury with unsuccessful CPR.

The reporter was certain he saw a dust devil begin on the edge of the runway in a location that would support an invisible dust devil on the runway crossing the path of the truck and glider.

Recommendation of the reporter: If towing is done in gusty, turbulent or thermal conditions, a row of wind flags should be on each side of the runway at 50-75 foot intervals to warn of invisible turbulence. 1) Pilots should attach their release line in such a way that there will not be an auto release. 2) Weak links should be strong enough so that breaks right after launch will not occur.

OK, everybody make sure to ignore Brian's post and Doug's fatality report 'cause they're more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.

Ryan Voight - 2016/04/06 22:08:19 UTC

Brad Barkley - 2016/04/06 20:12:25 UTC

Depends on the method and more so on the instructor. I learned via scooter tow from Steve Wendt at Blue Sky, and it could not have been any safer.

Exactly agreed- depends on the instructor.

Something we all know, but sometimes people seem to forget- is we can't put a student in the air higher than they're ready for, before they're ready for it. We need to A) teach them the skills needed to get ready, and B) Observe consistency in demonstrating those skills.

How 'bout this:

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3713/9655904048_89cce6423a_o.png


guy? According to everyone involved and the u$hPa cover-up crew not one individual directly involved in or leading up to that one did anything the slightest bit wrong. If they got a do-over for that afternoon everything would be done exactly the same. So isn't this hang glider towing action really just a dice roll for every individual and pull taken throughout people's careers?

Wendt's trademark "low and slow" teaching/towing style accomplishes both things, in a way where students would have to try really, really hard to injure themselves. I won't say it's completely without risk... but it's probably as good as can be had doing something like hang gliding.

And you get such wonderfully qualified pilots coming out of his programs - Bill Priday, Holly Korzilius, Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney, Brad Barkley to name but a few.

I have no details of this specific tragic accident, so please do not mistake my generality thought-sharing for addressing THIS case directly.

And we have no details of this specific tragic accident from the Mission people running this one - same as for Lin Lyons and Scott Howard. Which leads one to believe they've got stuff to hide - despite the fact that among ourselves, we agree (via the waiver) that we understand we're engaged in a risky sport that can cause serious injury or death. We each agree that we are personally and individually responsible for our own safety. If we have an accident and get hurt, we agree in advance that it is solely our own fault, no matter what the circumstances might be. We sign at the bottom saying that we fully understand these things, that we accept them, and that we know we are giving up the right to sue anybody if an accident happens. Go figure.

For whatever reason, putting people too high too early on HILLS doesn't seem as common... or at least doesn't seem to produce the same level of impact/injury... as towing training.

How 'bout:
- 2015/05/09 - Markus Schaedler
- 2015/05/17 - Scott Trueblood
- 2015/06/26 - Trey Higgins
- 2015/08/23 - Rafi Lavin
- 2015/10/11 - Jesse Fulkersin
- 2015/11/08 - Karen Carra
from last year in the US? Weren't they all too high too early in their hill careers? Either that or not high enough?

Is it too easy to put people too high? Do instructors mistake successful flights due to stable glider designs for the result of student skill? Does the tow operator instinctively try to "pull" the student back on course with the winch- which actually would do the opposite, accelerating them into deeper trouble.

According to the Skyting Theory - under which all towing operations are run - pulling the pilot back in line shifts his weight to under the near wing and accelerates the autocorrecting effect of center of mass towing.

I have more questions than I have answers...

Damn. I so do love it when you have answers.

...but I personally think it's time for Instructor Certification reform.

How 'bout u$hPa Waiver reform?

I think the only reason that hasn't happened, is how loudly people already complain about how difficult or expensive it is to become/stay an instructor...

What happens if we go to the other extreme? Eliminate the whole instruction and pilot rating system and let people work things out as best as they can? How do we know that we'll get worse results? One thing's for sure - what we're doing now isn't sustainable.

2016/04/06 22:26:20 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Brad Barkley
2016/04/09 16:38:58 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Michael Grisham
2016/04/09 04:08:14 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Christopher LeFay

Tom Lyon - 2016/04/06 22:11:12 UTC

My heart goes out to the pilot and his...

Her.

...family. So sorry.

Since this is also something of a safety thread, I will say that although surface towing is a highly-proven method of towing...

How do we know? According to u$hPa THIS:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8143/7462005802_bbc0ac66ac_o.jpg


never happened. Where's the data to highly prove ANYTHING in this sport? For decades the most highly proven safety device in aerotowing was a single loop of 130 pound test fishing line. Then three years ago everybody suddenly decided to become happy with highly proving 200 pound fishing line as the focal point of our safe towing system.

...and there are outstanding instructors who teach it...

How do you know?

- We don't have shit in the way of accident reporting and publishing systems and typically somebody's gotta get killed before we're even aware that anything bad happened.

- You're about to tell us that you don't have shit's worth of experience in surface and you've already told us...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=47096
Aerotow primary releases?

Tom Lyon - 2016/04/01 20:15:37 UTC

I also will not move up to towing with a Sport 2 or other glider until I probably have 100 hours or more on my Falcon. I'm a very conservative pilot.

...that you've got about the flattest learning curve in the history of the sport.

So where do you come off talking about outstanding instructors teaching surface towing?

Steve Exceptionally-Knowledgeable Wendt is a legendary outstanding instructor. Tell me:

- just what it is he's doing that makes him so fucking outstanding

- why the untold hundreds of Blue Sky products - Brad Barkley comes to mind - haven't gone forth and collectively fixed all of hang gliding's problems and pulled the sport out of its terminal nose dive

I won't surface tow in either a hang glider or sailplane (I'm a sailplane pilot as well).

Yeah, you certainly wouldn't wanna do anything to unnecessarily increase the depths of your experience, knowledge, understanding, skills.

Again, I am not making any statement on the safety of this towing method...

Yes you are.

...just that it's not for me.

I'll be sure to add it to my list of things that aren't for you - along with turning a glider below two hundred feet.

The reasons why I don't like surface towing are because the attitude of the glider is very steep (and that steep attitude can quickly become a high AoA in the event of a...

...sudden inconvenient increase in the safety of the towing operation.)

...power loss), the angle of the line to the towing vehicle is very high...

The angle of the line to the towing vehicle is very LOW - idiot. The angle of the line to the towing vehicle is zero in aero and in remote launch surface starts out as zero and starts going negative as the glider starts climbing. And a lower tow angle means a lower glider pitch attitude for any given tension. So you're a lot better off should an inconvenience suddenly rear it's ugly head and the worst possible time.

...and a glider that diverges can do so quickly (lockout)...

Not really a problem in aero...

01-001
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7375/12981378134_6d44d81e61_o.png

07-300
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7441/12980980635_a22762812d_o.png

10-307
http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1660/26132155836_82b94d6550_o.png

15-413
http://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3141/12981414774_e6ddd85c13_o.png


...with all it's advantages over surface:
- 250 foot fixed length towline
- driver:
-- hopefully watching the glider in a convex mirror
-- busy flying a plane of his own
-- unable to do shit in the way of easing power during the most critical stage of the flight

...and an emergency event pulls the aircraft toward the ground at a high rate of speed.

Like what?

109-15221
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8615/16487544910_41f57852ac_o.png


http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8567/16673581951_d89a07ed78_o.png
111-15309

Nobody on either end able to abort the tow for half an hour?

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8819/18267685796_64156e9c91_o.png


Total fringe activity with:
- a driver one met in the parking lot a half hour ago?
- a fucked up two-string connection?
- a bridle hooked over a wheel extension?
- no useable radio or observer?
- no recollection of having a parachute?

I'm willing to aerotow (but approach it with utmost respect and caution), but I won't surface tow.

Get fucked.

2016/04/09 04:09:14 UTC - 2 thumbs up - Christopher LeFay

Zack C - 2011/03/04 05:29:28 UTC

As for platform launching, I was nervous about it when I started doing it. It looked iffy, like things could get bad fast. I've since logged around 100 platform launches and have seen hundreds more. Never once was there any issue. I now feel platform launching is the safest way to get a hang glider into the air (in the widest range of conditions). You get away from the ground very quickly and don't launch until you have plenty of airspeed and excellent control.

Aero is the most dangerous way to pull a glider off the ground of any halfway sane system and assholes like you go out of your way to build on the inherent danger by utilizing the crappiest equipment you can find.

Also... Won't surface tow 'cause it's too dangerous but no problem foot launching out of a slot on a mountain, right Jackie?

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34243
Fatal HG crash in Tres Pinos CA 4-3-2016

gluesniffer - 2016/04/06 23:09:01 UTC

From my understanding, towing isn't an option until pilots have earned their h1s on the hill at this school.

Well, all their students should be fine on tow then.

People can say what they want about prices and other things I won't get into, but this school is just about as professional as they come.

It may well be. Just not saying much in this total sewer of a flavor of aviation.

Very sad.

Not sad enough for this school that's just about as professional as they come to have so much as acknowledged the (previous) existence of this highly qualified tow student of theirs.

Brian Scharp - 2016/04/06 23:37:13 UTC

Ryan Voight - 2016/04/06 22:08:19 UTC

Does the tow operator instinctively try to "pull" the student back on course with the winch- which actually would do the opposite, accelerating them into deeper trouble.

Maybe they're confusing it with...

Ryan Voight - 2012/09/26 14:23:55 UTC

Running to the right = weight shift to the right.

It's all about what the glider feels. Running to the right pulls the hang loop to the right, just like when you weight shift at 3,000 ft. Glider doesn't know or care what means you used to pull the hang loop to the right.

OK, everybody make sure to also ignore THIS post of Brian's 'cause it reveals Ryan to be the incompetent total asshole he actually is and we definitely wanna minimize that sorta thing in Jack's Living Room.

lefthandviolist - 2016/04/07 00:20:36 UTC

@gluesniffer, that makes sense. I knew the pilot; she was very outgoing, wonderful to be around, and enthusiastic about hang gliding.

But still can't be named. I think we're forging ahead on the all time world record of information suppression on this one. Day 5 now and we still don't even have a name.

I had wondered why she was towing because I only knew that she was working on foot launching before this occurred.

She WAS foot launching...

001-00001
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8621/16673600031_18afe652a9_o.png


...when that occurred. If she'd been dolly launching she'd still be fine.

She earned her H1 a few months ago so I guess this was the progression for the school.

What do you think the next stage will be? Same as Ridgely's perhaps?

I had my own aerotow lockout a few months ago, which led to some discussion regarding the transition from foot launching to towing.

I give up.

I think that may merit more consideration, though I don't know what happened in this case.

Well, we sure aren't having any problems listing stuff we DON'T know in this case.

I was really looking forward to flying with her when I returned to CA. She will be missed.

She who? Mission hasn't missed her enough to acknowledge that anything out of the ordinary happened Sunday.

2016/04/09 16:41:25 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Michael Grisham

Richard Palmon - 2016/04/07 00:51:15 UTC

Do you have any instruction experience glue?

Who give's a flying fuck? We just had a One killed by somebody who undoubtedly had tons of instruction experience. Ditto for the Tomas Banevius and Arys Moorhead.

Richard Palmon - 2016/04/07 00:58:16 UTC

So very sad to have heard about this young lady. My heart goes out to her, family and friends.

Who said she was young?

Richard Palmon - 2016/04/07 01:36:18 UTC

I'm in hopes that the ushpa will take measures to reduce if not completely eliminate these avoidable circumstances or practices.

And I'm in hopes that global warming is just a massive hoax and the planet will go back to the way it was when I was a kid.

Bouyo - 2016/04/07 01:44:03 UTC

I was required to achieve an H2 rating before aero-towing from my school, which doesn't hand out H2 ratings lightly either.

Not until you've demonstrated an ability to consistent nail those spot landings fer sure.

I still consider myself very inexperienced after four pilot-in-command tandem aero-tows with an instructor...

I thought the Dragonfly driver was always the Pilot In Command.

...and several solo tows after that.

Who the fuck gives rat's ass about EXPERIENCE on AT?

Bill Bryden - 2000/02

Dennis Pagen informed me several years ago about an aerotow lockout that he experienced. One moment he was correcting a bit of alignment with the tug and the next moment he was nearly upside down. He was stunned at the rapidity. I have heard similar stories from two other aerotow pilots.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg


How much experience does one need to understand and appropriately execute up/down/left/right?

The prospect of surface (or aero-towing) as an H1 pilot would not have crossed my mind in the progression of learning.

So much for Blue Sky Scooter Towing.

So much can happen, so quickly, and it requires instant and correct response: is it reasonable to expect an H1 pilot to have these correct reactions?

Bullshit. Towing is as safe or dangerous as people wanna make it. And one starts by understanding theory with a recognition that the guy on the gas is a relevant factor.

So sad to hear this news and I hope that something can be learned from this tragedy.

This "NEWS"? This report that some nameless individual bought it on tow that got leaked the better part of four days after the fact? Name another hang gliding fatality that was never reported by the mainstream media.

Richard Palmon - 2016/04/07 01:56:46 UTC

We would like all pilots to have the skills to not mentally and physically lock out.

To have the skills we need to have total mastery over the laws of physics and the power of Mother Nature - to always be able to stay well within the boundaries of the Cone of Safety. The Cone of Safety that Zack Marzec inexplicably ventured from at Quest on the afternoon of 2013/02/02.

Are less experienced pilots more susceptible?

Any chance we can drop the crap about inexperience and start talking about incompetence and stupidity instead?

If your foot launching...

...your not competent in the second grade level of you're native language.

...truck towing, boat towing, surface tow, aerotow, balloon drop, etc....

Balloon drops? Balloon drops have absolutely NOTHING to do with towing.

I believe that if a skill or new environment is being introduced to any rated pilot. hg1 through hg4. It's best to introduce any new environment or element gradually and methodically.

Good luck introducing balloon drops gradually and methodically. ("OK, we'll start off with a few fifty footers in this morning's calm morning air then gradually work our way up higher and into strong thermal conditions.")

Mike Jefferson - 2016/04/07 01:59:12 UTC

I would like to know how you formulated your opinion gluesniffer.

Who gives a rat's ass? Hang gliding is opinion based aviation and one individual's is just as valid as anyone else's.

This is very sad.

In your OPINION anyway.

My thoughts and prayers go out to the family of the pilot. This tragedy didn't have to happen. My primary goal of teaching hang gliding is to keep my students safe until they go on their own.

Then fuck 'em. After they've gone out on their own you're off the hook.

This means going so far as to mentor them up through hang 3 and 4.

Look at the fatals from the period of The Bloodbath. How many of them wouldn't have been prevented with the application of solid Hang 2.0 competence and judgment?

Mike J
USHPA 76175

Richard Palmon - 2016/04/07 02:08:39 UTC

In my experience working with new students. Even within the safest and most controlled environment. Most will lock up mentally/physically. Until they are able to acclimate to wing and the wind.

There should be a literacy requirement for flight instructor certification. If one is unable to grasp the concept of a sentence I'm not seeing how one can grasp and convey concepts of aeronautical theory. Most of your students are locking up mentally/physically? Funny, I'm not recalling MY students locking up mentally/physically.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34243
Fatal HG crash in Tres Pinos CA 4-3-2016

waltspoint - 2016/04/07 02:11:00 UTC

Heartbreaking news...

Well spoken. OK, you've done your bit. Now you're free to continue doing whatever it was you were doing before.

Takeo77 - 2016/04/07 02:12:51 UTC
Silicon Valley

Silicon Valley... That's where Karl's from. You guys buddies?

I can't speak about the incident, but I can say I learned at this school and with this instructor and I thought highly of their operation.

Not so highly that you're NAMING this instructor. (Please, God. Let it be Karl.)

I have seen some very experienced and also very new people have some surprising "startle responses" in this sport...

Well then... I guess we're just rolling dice with the lives of our students and our selves as participants.

...so I don't know if it's right to blame everything on an instructor corps.

When a Hang One has been killed on a training tow it's 100.00 percent right to blame everything on an instructor corps.

Nevertheless I am anxious to read the result of the accident report.

I think it's pretty safe for you to start holding your breath now. And if you start running into an oxygen deprivation issue don't hesitate to let me know. I can undoubtedly compose something that will be pretty close to the finished product.

---
2016/04/03 - Jane Doe
Allowed glider to enter turn, failed to respond to verbal instruction, locked out, made no attempt to activate her two-string release - which is typical for surface tow training. Suffered fatal injuries.
---

Dave Pendzick - 2016/04/07 02:15:27 UTC

The incident resulted from Surface Towing with a winch, not from aerotowing.

Duh.

My hang gliding instructor incorporated surface towing into his syllabus. I did a couple of tows at low altitude & slow speeds with a Condor. To be honest...

A departure from your de facto mode?

...I do not see how it benefited me in any way as it was done after my 1st high altitude launch. I remember feeling a bit frustrated that he required I learn this skill in order to earn my H2...

What skill? Isn't that a skill that most sacks of potatoes would be reasonably good at?

...but I appreciated the learning opportunity looking back in retrospect.

As opposed to looking forward in retrospect.

I am now an H4, I have done 3 aerotows & from what I have surmised in my towing experience, I feel that towing is an advanced skill.

Well let's all go with what you feel based on what you've surmised in your towing experience then.

I do not have much experience towing so what I have to say regarding my opinions of the practice may not be well received.

Ya think?

Foot launching is simple & this is why it works...

Yeah. Proven system. 'Specially now that u$hPa has totally gutted its accident reporting system.

...& can be taught safely to students.

Like smoking cigarettes. All the students I knew from my high school days who smoked did just fine. End of story.

...Towing incorporates many foot launch skills...

http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1470/25532108590_c0c76fea68_o.png


Sorry, I missed the part in which the many foot launch skills were being incorporated. Looked to me like he just waited until the glider had airspeed and eased the bar out a wee bit.

...as well as a slew of other complexities which I feel are too much for an H1/student pilot to manage.

Suck my dick, Dave.

Richard Palmon - 2016/04/07 02:21:21 UTC

Some student hg pilots will excell...regardless of who or where they trained.

And the really good ones will be able to unlearn all the total crap from their training and start functioning as ACTUAL pilots.

As instructors...we don't have the luxury to cherry pick students or the means to honestly qualify who has the RIGHT STUFF!

Right. As instructors we all have guns to our heads forcing us to teach and sign off everybody who shows up and signs a waiver.

The saying..."It's survival of the fittest!" Unfortunately this saying can be an underlying approach with some outfitsj.

I dunno... You somehow managed to survive this long.

Richard Palmon - 2016/04/07 02:24:52 UTC

or the means to honestly qualify

Quoting yourself from your previous post...

This statement can be dissected to concise conclusion.

What?

Meaning..

Oh good. You're gonna tell us what that means.

If there is a way to honestly qualify and prepare students. Would all instructors adopt and implement this safer approach?

Sure Richard...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=31781
Another hang check lesson

Alan Deikman - 2014/09/23 19:47:06 UTC

For my part I will just refer you to the classic Tad Eareckson essay which I call "the gun is always loaded" which is a bit overworked but probably all you will ever need to read regarding FTHI. A lot of people will find it gores their particular sacred Ox, but I have never seen anyone point out a flaw in his logic.

Just like all instructors all adopt, implement, teach the most effective way to comply with u$hPa's 35 year old hook-in check requirement and prevent unhooked launches. This is why hang gliding keeps getting safer with each passing year and explains why major insurance companies are currently lining up to do business with us.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34243
Fatal HG crash in Tres Pinos CA 4-3-2016

Lin Lyons - 2016/04/07 03:29:57 UTC

I've been watching this thread for a while. Tres Pinos is where I learned...

And came within three or four seconds of dying.

...and if I was to start again, knowing all that I do now, it's where I'd still choose to start.

So tell us what's wrong with other options. If you believe that Mission is the best of the best shouldn't you be doing your best to identify instructional operations that are gonna have more of the kinds of incidents that Mission did on Sunday?

I expect that there are accidents at most training sites.

Really? My take is that there's no such thing as an accident in hang gliding. Got any examples to convince me otherwise?

I also suspect that in most cases, pilot error is the problem.

As was obviously the case here. They told her exactly what to do and she didn't do it. Shit happens. Darwin. Case closed.

In Tres Pinos, you do have to be an H1 to tow.

At Manquin you can't get off the ground without towing. And I don't think Steve has ever mangled anybody with under Hang Three airtime at his facility - just sets them up to be mangled down the road a bit.

And the first few tows are pretty carefully monitored.

I haven't heard you say that you're on board with Mission not towing anyone before signing off the One.

(To be honest...

Dontchya just love all the honesty we're hearing in this thread? Makes up a bit for all the total silence we're hearing from all the players involved in this one.

...many students would like the pace to be faster, but it's pretty obvious that what they do is pretty good.)

I'm totally sold on that. How can one argue otherwise? 'Specially since in order for us to hear about anything bad happening at Tres Pinos a non Mission person needs to submit something to Jack's Living Room or post a video.

We're seeing how tightly they're able to throttle the information flow in the wake of a Hang One lockout fatality and we're supposed to believe that there haven't been the usual fifteen or twenty broken arms, dislocated shoulders to balance things to the expected ratio?

They have been towing pilots there for decades, with a pretty good safety record.

Right. You can go to their website and see no references to any unfortunate mishaps. Hard to beat a safety record like that.

It is true that I had a parachute deployment, but it was my mistake, not theirs.

Bull fucking shit. You were a goddam Hang Two STUDENT, they didn't adequately instruct you to hook up a three-string (and if they were doing things right how come immediately afterwards they went to the two-string that can't be safely released under normal tow tension and which is what Jane was just killed on with lockout tension), didn't check that you were good to go, and had no means of zeroing the tow tension as the emergency situation progressed to max critical.

There are several coulda, shoulda, woulda's, but the truth is that the description of what happened has not come out yet.

1. We haven't had a goddam word from any one those mothefuckers. Funny that the day before Karl had time to make a smartass crack about T** at K*** S******'s Rube Goldberg / Heath Robinson towing assembly. Guess we know what their priorities are.

Also note that Mission's never illustrated on their website any of their own state-of-the-art equipment. One would think that would be a major point of pride and selling point for them. How very odd.

And what do we have instead?

http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1471/26163846976_0008ccc8ab_o.png


Your go-to hang gliding school when you really need to understand how to use a GPS.

2. Implying that the description of what happened WILL come out. Got news for ya, Lin... You get your best info within hours of impact. The longer the delay the more the spin doctors are gonna turn the report into total shit.

I expect that most of us would rather fly off a mountain than be towed...

Fuck anybody who gives a rat's ass HOW he gets his glider into workable air at workable altitude - other than with considerations of safety, expense, convenience. Towing, for all intents and purposes, kicks mountain ass in anything and everything you wanna name.

...but that's not always an option.

And now, thanks to Highland's incompetence, mismanagement, arrogance, criminal conduct, towing will never again be a viable option in my neck of the woods.

Most of the pilots that come from Tres Pinos turn out pretty good.

Sure Lin. You've got the expertise and data to support that statement.

There are complaints about instructors.

Particularly from their active students trying to get rated by them so's they can play with their bigger toys and go elsewhere.

I didn't have a bad one.

Can you name him so's we'll all know where to turn for not bad instruction?

We see, "They should have taught ...." all the time. Being an instructor is both a skill and an art. You have to present material in a way that students can understand, and that's not always the same. You also have to present material at a pace that the student can accommodate. Presenting too much material too early is not helpful.

So what are all these advanced concepts necessary to convey for the making of competent pilots? One of the quickest studies I ever had was a little eleven year old kid just into the minimum weight requirement who was flying beautifully through the course of his lessons package.

My take is that the sorta person who SHOULD be flying gliders is gonna get a little guidance from the guy supervising him but is gonna get 95 percent of his instruction from the glider itself and the air in the immediate vicinity.

And quote me some reasonably competent flyers raving about the awesome instruction they had through their Twos. I'd say that the vast majority of those of us who know what the fuck we're doing were primarily self taught and used their instructors mainly for a bit of guidance and feedback every now and then.

Until more is known about what happened, I don't think that criticism is all that useful.

The fact that we don't have shit in the way of what is known about what happened five days after the fatal crash is, in and of itself, a call for the most rabid criticism. How dare these motherfuckers pull someone trying to learn to do what the rest of us are doing to her instant death and not tell us ANYTHING about what happened. When people are behaving like criminals it's a pretty good bet it's because they ARE criminals.

We all want to know what happened -- in order to avoid it, if for no other reason.

Otto Fucking Lilienthal knew how to avoid it. We don't need to know what happened in order to avoid it. We need to know why it wasn't avoided and have responsible parties held fully accountable in order to have this kinda bullshit shut down.

But the speculation today is not all that helpful.

Speculation is what you get when motherfuckers are maintaining their right to remain silent in order to not incriminate themselves. And that's EXACTLY what we're seeing here.

It certainly wasn't when I was a learning and had to deploy my parachute.

So what did it harm? You immediately told us every detail of what went wrong and why and posted a high resolution video of the entire sequence events. So what problems, misconceptions about the incident are we having regarding the incident today.

And lemme point out that there were no more "lessons to be learned" from this incident. We know how to hook up a three-string and we know that people get killed when releases won't function as releases. All we got from your video - beyond spectacular entertainment - was a deep insight into the shoddiness of Mission's operation.

And Mission's response was to make it's operation even shoddier. They told us themselves they'd abandonned their "state-of-the-art equipment" for junk that was harder to hook up wrong but wouldn't work under even normal load.

And the hang gliding "community"'s response was to let the motherfuckers totally get away with it. And the result of that is the dead Hang One we got last weekend.

2016/04/07 12:12:44 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Jim Gaar

P.S. Oh gawd. I've read ahead and Ryan is saying a lot of the exact same things I am.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34243
Fatal HG crash in Tres Pinos CA 4-3-2016

Dave Pendzick - 2016/04/07 03:45:34 UTC

Your opinion is highly biased as you were a product of the institution in question. What happened, H1 Death, should never happen anywhere period. There just is NO excuse for this.

Oh gawd. I'm in alignment with this asshole on this too.

Richard Palmon - 2016/04/07 03:47:32 UTC

Is this what you mean by speculation?

Lin Lyons - 2016/04/07 03:29:57 UTC

I also suspect that in most cases, pilot error is the problem.

No. It's only speculation when you point to something other than the dead guy as a contributing factor.

Do you believe in good information and bad information?

If he does he's in the wrong sport.

Richard Palmon - 2016/04/07 03:56:10 UTC

Let's create a hypothetical.

If I taught you how to launch a hang glider. And yes! You got into the air. And let's say what I taught you was barely enough to be consistent. If and when you do blow a launch! Would that be pilot error?

How 'bout if I taught you:

http://www.wallaby.com/aerotow_primer.php
Aerotow Primer for Experienced Pilots

The Wallaby Ranch Aerotowing Primer for Experienced Pilots - 2016/04/07

A weak link connects the V-pull to the release, providing a safe limit on the tow force. If you fail to maintain the correct tow position (centered, with the wheels of the tug on the horizon), the weak link will break before you can get into too much trouble.

and you died either because the weak link DIDN'T break before you could get into too much trouble, as per the Mission incident Sunday, or DID break before you could get OUT OF too much trouble, as per the Quest incident 2013/02/02? Would those be pilot error?

Lin Lyons - 2016/04/07 03:58:25 UTC

Dave Pendzick - 2016/04/07 03:45:34 UTC

Your opinion is highly biased as you were a product of the institution in question. What happened, H1 Death, should never happen anywhere period. There just is NO excuse for this.

Uh huh. It would be nice if it never happened anywhere. To anyone. But that's not reality. The idea that someone who is not associated would have a better understanding of the environment seems unreasonable to me.

Bullshit.

As I said, there are lots of shoulda, coulda, woulda's, from people who were not there.

In theory, we're competent pilots who don't need to be or have been somewhere to make valid assessments of situations. We didn't need to have been there at Funston on 2015/08/23 to know for a dead certainty that Rafi Lavin didn't ever do preflight stomp tests before taking his glider into the air.

That happens every time. Backseat drivers always think they know best.

Better than the dickheads involved in the crashes. Go figure.

I can tell you for a fact, that's not always true.

I can live with 99 percent.

Richard Palmon - 2016/04/07 03:56:10 UTC

The implication here is that the teachers did not do a good job.

Nah. They obviously did a totally outstanding job. I have no fuckin' clue why none of them are there on The Jack Show telling everybody what an outstanding job they did.

Frankly, as I said, I'd go back there again.

I went back to Ridgely again and again over the course of ten seasons. That don't make them safe operators or my decisions to fly behind their shit Dragonflies and drivers good or defensible ones.

Reading what you posted, I'm not sure I'd see you the 2nd day. Sure is easy to think that someone else did it all wrong, and, of course, you'd have done it better. Particularly when the facts of what actually happened haven't come out yet.

The fact of the facts of what actually happened not having come out yet are plenty good enough for me. I'm on the verge of banning you for this crap. I know that won't cramp your style in the least but it WILL send a powerful message.

2016/04/07 12:13:43 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Jim Gaar
2016/04/10 04:15:39 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Dave Jacob

Richard Palmon - 2016/04/07 04:06:50 UTC

I will ask you the same question I asked gluesniffer. Are you an experienced instructor linlyons?
This question is important! If your not? How can you determine or asses what is or could be potential hazard to some?

Oh. We need to be experienced instructors to "asses" what is or could be potential hazard to some. A ten year old kid who's never been within fifty miles of a hang glider would be unable to asses that an easily reachable release on an aircraft that requires two hands to fly could be problematic because he wouldn't be an experienced instructor.

Richard Palmon - 2016/04/07 04:08:59 UTC

I don't think we ever met lin? So your saying my tone is enough to say I have absolutely NO experience with this situation?
Let me make something very clear. I'm addressing this situation for a reason. I could keep my mouth shut! And go quietly into the night.
The other day...A pilot asked me. "If you break a downtube is that an accident?

Would you have broken the downtube if you'd come down twice as hard with an nice pair of wheels or skids? Isn't the pilot error / accident waiting to happen taking off without wheels or skids under the assumption that you're such a highly skilled pilot that there'll never be a relevant situation?

And then later on...you snap a leading edge?" I responded. "Those aren't accidents! That's a habit!"

Right. People are making habits out of snapping leading edges.

This is not the first ACCIDENT at this site! Or a multitude of potential close calls.
If there is a pattern of a habit. It's time to find a solution to the habit!

Preferably a final one.

NMERider - 2016/04/07 04:12:25 UTC

Lin Lyons - 2016/04/07 04:18:26 UTC

Nope, I'm not. I'm an H3 pilot. The problem is that you implied that their instruction is lacking. They've taught hundreds of pilots.

Cool. Let's make that 999. Hell, round it up to a thousand. So a random student only has a 0.2 chance of getting physically demolished, à la Scott Howard, or killed instantly, à la Jane Doe. I'm really liking those odds! And if I send a group of five for a group discount package there's only a one in a hundred chance of a life getting destroyed or ended.

How often have you seen their students complain about their teaching?

Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney tells us that...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/07/22 22:30:28 UTC

I've heard it a million times before from comp pilots insisting on towing with even doubled up weaklinks (some want no weaklink). I tell them the same thing I'm telling you... suck it up. You're not the only one on the line. I didn't ask to be a test pilot. I can live with your inconvenience.

...a million comp pilots were less than satisfied with the Rooney Link's efficacy in increasing the safety of the towing operation. How many of them did we hear complaining publicly and what was commercial hang gliding's response...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/17 10:37:47 UTC

I'm not sure who you're arguing with Zack, but it's sure not me... cuz man... you've got some pretty big hangups mate.

Ra ra ra... burn the greenspot!!!!
Get real man.
You think that's all we use?
Hell, just in this thread, you seem to have missed the 200lb orange links.
Ah, but your strawman argument lives and breaths by your black and white hyperbole.
When you come back to reality, let me know.
Till then, I'm sick of it.

You're hear to argue. Plain and simple. I've got better stuff to do.
Go blow smoke somewhere else. I couldn't give a rats ass... I won't be towing you so what do I care?

...to anyone who stood up to the motherfuckers?

And yet, without even being there, you do.

Sorry Lin...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/05 19:42:58 UTC

My god my head hurts.

Wow...
So you know what happened then?
OMG... thank you for your expert accident analysis. You better fly down to FL and let them know. I'm sure they'll be very thankful to have such a crack expert mind on the case analyzing an accident that you know nothing about. Far better data than the people that were actually there. In short... get fucked.

Again, tell me how all this nonsense is about "safety"?

So, a stronger weaklink allows you to achieve higher AOAs... but you see high AOAs coupled with a loss of power as *the* problem? So you want something that will allow you to achieve even higher AOAs?
Are you NUTS?

I'm tired of arguing with crazy.
As I said many times... there are those that listen with the intent of responding... you unfortunately are one.

You've done a great job of convincing me never to tow you.
Thank you for that.
Mission accomplished.

Way too much similarity. I just pulled your fuckin' plug - 2016/04/08 03:08:35 UTC. Lemme know when you decide to stop being an Industry cocksucker.

In this life, there are people who just like to complain.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/26 02:44:10 UTC

Zach, you can nit pick all you like, but I'll put a 100,000+ flight record over your complaints any day of the week.

We see 'em in stores, on the street, and even here in this forum. In general, when I encounter them, we might disagree. But in the end, I leave thinking I've done my good deed for the day. I've provided them an opportunity to do that which they like best -- complain. And afterwards, I can leave happy, and feel sorry for whoever it is that has to put up with them on a daily basis. I just thank my lucky stars that it's not me.

Get fucked.

2016/04/07 12:14:42 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Jim Gaar

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34243
Fatal HG crash in Tres Pinos CA 4-3-2016

Richard Palmon - 2016/04/07 04:23:21 UTC

Ok! So what your saying is I'm complaining?
I have NO problem where you shop!
We are having this discussion! Because of a problem.

Richard Palmon - 2016/04/07 04:30:27 UTC

Does this ring a BELL!!!

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=30306
Non-fatal crash in Tres Pinos, CA

21 PAGES! Over 64,000 views!

As an instructor! My goal is to fly under the radar! This is on the radar!

I'm gonna do my best to fuckin' keep it there too. They're not gonna get away with this shit this time.

Richard Palmon - 2016/04/07 04:34:07 UTC

With all due respect linlyons, you have loyalty!

Fuck loyalty. It's a major cancer in this sport.

Doesn't mean your in position to see the BIG picture.

Motherfucker doesn't give a rat's ass about the big picture. Never did, never will. That's why I just pulled his plug.

Tim Dyer - 2016/04/07 18:47:31 UTC

Is this the same place that linn Lyons ( or what ever his name was) locked out and deployed while training ? ground base tow( static pay-in ) without a guillotine? Sad RIP

Good work, Tim.

(EDIT:Obviously I didn't read every post duh)

Good idea to at least skim them before you post.

Paul Hurless - 2016/04/07 19:08:01 UTC

He didn't lock out, he had miss-rigged his release and it wouldn't.

They addressed that problem by replacing it with one that won't release no matter how you rig it.

Don Arsenault - 2016/04/07 19:43:54 UTC

Yes. Same place pilots have come on here and speak about pushing out on tow to gain more altitude.

Like?:

http://www.wallaby.com/aerotow_primer.php
Aerotow Primer for Experienced Pilots

The Wallaby Ranch Aerotowing Primer for Experienced Pilots - 2016/04/07

Remember: it is almost impossible to stall under aerotow. The induced thrust vector makes the glider trim at a higher attitude. It is OK to push way out; you will climb, not stall.

Yeah, you sure don't wanna fly in such a manner as to get where you wanna go. The focal point of your safe towing system might not approve of your action and abruptly increase the safety of the towing operation.

Same place Scott tumbled after release and was seriously injured, & promised to share the video for others to learn from...

If the others donated the money he needed to get back home.

...but never did.

After the others donated the money he needed to get back home.

Very sad indeed.

And what do we expect?

RIP to the pilot, & condolences to friends and family.

And thanks, friends and family, for telling us who she was and helping us to get this situation properly dealt with.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34243
Fatal HG crash in Tres Pinos CA 4-3-2016

Ryan Voight - 2016/04/07 20:07:36 UTC

Lin Lyons - 2016/04/07 04:18:26 UTC

Nope, I'm not. I'm an H3 pilot. The problem is that you implied that their instruction is lacking. They've taught hundreds of pilots. How often have you seen their students complain about their teaching? And yet, without even being there, you do.

Lin- dude... hgflyer implied nothing. It's not IMPLIED. A student, under direct instruction, is dead. That does not happen without some kind of instruction F*** up. So far we have no details on this one. And yes, I'm a couple thousand miles away. Wasn't there, didn't see it, don't even know who the individual instructor(s) were...

Again I'll say- there is no implication of lacking instruction. There is proof. Cold, stiff, lifeless proof god damnit. Someone's daughter, sister, wife?, mother?

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm sorry for the emotion here, but wake up a little. I'm the first to say HOW FREAKING DIFFICULT AN INSTRUCTOR'S JOB IS... but I will also point out that the biggest part of that job is to not let your students kill themselves. If you can not wrap your mind around that concept, or that the truly great instructors CAN and DO accomplish this, consistently, then I'm sorry for you, but that would explain your defense of whoever is involved in this operation.

I say this operation, rather than this incident, because like hgflyer touched on, this is not an isolated event. While I do feel it is FACT that an instructor's job is to not let students kill themselves (or, ideally, even hurt themselves)... I also recognize instructor's are human too, and we all slip up or misjudge or forget or over look something... myself included. And I am *TRULY* sympathetic to all the people left in the wake of this tragedy... hang gliding does not pay well at all, which means anyone leading this life is doing it out of love and passion for it... and this is the absolute worst nightmare for us. BUT! This is a fatal student accident, taking place at an operation that also had a student death that was averted by chute deployment (that was you, if I understand what you said earlier???), and this operation had a student death from a tumbled beginner glider, no parachute deployment, but they fought the ground and WON- NOT dying, but "only" being badly injured.

These three events I know of, from the other side of the country, within the past few years. Were there other, lesser incidents? Could there have been, and "luck" was a factor in there being a favorable outcome instead?

I'll wrap up this rant with addressing this line of yours, which I find most troubling of all:

They've taught hundreds of pilots. How often have you seen their students complain about their teaching?

How many deaths, deployments, or serious injuries are considered acceptable per number of students taught? If a school like mine, which is very small and teaches <100 people per season, with maybe a dozen that follow through to graduating into the pilot community (and that'd be a BIG year for us!), had one of each of these accidents... would you be defending me/us? What if we were twice the size we are? I do understand the laws of probabilities, and if you roll dice enough they'll come up snake eyes eventually... and that's kind of my point above- instruction shouldn't be rolling dice (blind chance). Risks can be managed, calculated, mitigated... there's no room for "luck" in aviation... but even I'll take all the GOOD luck I can get, especially when I screw up and need it!

And... "How often have you seen their students complain"... think that through for a moment. How often does someone that's never done hang gliding before, complain that their instruction could be better? If the INSTRUCTOR(s) can't see how it could/should be better- and I do believe we're talking about great people here, with the absolute best of intentions and desires... and if they knew there were ways to do it better and safer, they absolutely and immediately would- then how would a student possibly know?! I do not mean this is a nasty way, but even you, now as a H3, don't seem to see how unacceptable what happened to you was. I know- and respect/admire your maturity- you have taken full responsibility for your incident... but you did something you shouldn't have... or didn't do something you should have... and it was a near-death event. An analogy is, driving down the highway at 80mph... we have every bit the potential for death and carnage as we do in a hang glider, maybe more (faster + closer to obstacles). But it is our "skill" to steer the vehicle so as to not hit the other cars, light or power poles, trees, whatever... and most people do this every day, never thinking much of it... But what we don't do, is put a 12 year old that's only ever driven a riding mower before, behind the wheel at 80 on the freeway. If we did, and they crashed... was it their fault for steering poorly? Or was it whoever allowed them to be in that situation, without the knowledge/ability/preparedness to handle it?

And yes, whenever I use this example someone clever feels the need to point out that there are car accidents every day... and as I said earlier, I recognize human error happens, in both instructors and in students... but the statistics of numbers of drivers, per mile or per minute driven, to the number of accidents... how many students would a school need to teach, with them spending how many minutes/hours in the air, to get the same ratio? Hint- a school that's taught thousands, and had at least these 3 serious catastrophic events, is astronomically different.

Sorry for the long post... I'm kind of fired up if you couldn't tell. I hate death, regardless of the cause... but when it's hang gliding, it cuts me deep. And when it's a STUDENT... well, you can see how I feel about that ^

2016/04/07 21:27:16 UTC - 3 thumbs up - NMERider
2016/04/09 16:40:23 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Michael Grisham
2016/04/08 00:20:04 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Don Arsenault

Brad Barkley - 2016/04/07 20:13:27 UTC
++++1000

Yeah Brad. And thanks for copying and pasting Ryan's entire quote from immediately above. That was a most useful contribution to the discussion and amendment to your contribution.

Don Murdoch - 2016/04/07 20:21:59 UTC
Birmingham, Alabama

Sad news.

Yet another outstanding and thought provoking contribution to the discussion. Appreciate the effort you put into it.

Davis Straub - 2016/04/07 21:26:54 UTC

An error on the part of the tow operator certainly is not unheard of. I have linked to just such issues with a tow operator in north Texas.

And let's not forget...

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8143/7462005802_bbc0ac66ac_o.jpg


...SouthWest Texas. And how 'bout central Florida?

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg


http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24534
It's a wrap

Davis Straub - 2011/07/30 19:51:54 UTC

I'm very happy with the way Quest Air (Bobby Bailey designed) does it now.

Any relevant issues there?

2016/04/07 22:14:48 UTC - 1 thumb up -- Tim Dyer

Just ONE, Tim? Is that all a staunch safety activist such as Davis merits?

Davis Straub - 2016/04/07 21:42:25 UTC

http://ozreport.com/15.160
Analysis of a scooter tow accident

http://oz-report.s3.amazonaws.com/accident.mp4

I was able to download that one. Moderate gold mine. Another stills project on the to-do list.

NMERider - 2016/04/07 22:21:37 UTC

Mark G. Forbes - 2016/04/07 21:37:50 UTC
Let's be careful out there.

Also...

Mark G. Forbes - 2015/11/11 01:25:07 UTC

Please be careful out there...

Mark G. Forbes - 2016/01/29 00:49:48 UTC

...let's be careful out there.

Mark G. Forbes - 2016/04/06 16:41:47 UTC

Please be careful out there.

Here's an alternate idea Mark:

Fuck that, Jonathan. I feel certain that if Mark keeps imploring us to be careful out there we'll eventually start being careful out there. And all the people who keep insisting on not being careful out there will be eliminated from the gene pool.

Let's stop wringing our hands.
Let's be educated, astute and vigilant out there.

And no more fuckin' Rube Goldberg / Heath Robinson release systems. Those things totally SICKEN me.

Let's ask pointed questions directly to the offending party when things don't pass the smell test.

And let's give the offending parties extremely disapproving looks when they decline to acknowledge our pointed questions. That'll sure get the attention of those sonsabitches. I'm practicing my extremely disapproving look as I'm writing this.

Let's call on our USHPA RDs and report suspected safety concerns after our direct questions are blown off.

Like T** at K*** S****** did regarding the Aerotow Industry's Accepted Standards and Practices and Bob did with the issues at Torrey. That should put the Fear of God into those offending parties - in the unlikely event our extremely disapproving looks fail to do the trick.

Let's expect our RDs to take our reasonable safety concerns seriously and respond appropriately.

Yeah. Let's expect that A LOT.

Let's contact our USHPA president and executive director after our RDs blow us off.

And not just contact them a little bit. Let's REALLY contact them.

A code of silence and collective hand wringing have no place in this sport.

Right along with...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=32681
Tandem crash in LV (speculation thread)

Mark G. Forbes - 2015/04/01 03:46:29 UTC

Among ourselves, we agree (via the waiver) that we understand we're engaged in a risky sport that can cause serious injury or death. We each agree that we are personally and individually responsible for our own safety. If we have an accident and get hurt, we agree in advance that it is solely our own fault, no matter what the circumstances might be. We sign at the bottom saying that we fully understand these things, that we accept them, and that we know we are giving up the right to sue anybody if an accident happens.

Those are fundamental tenets of our sport. We are all individually responsible for ourselves and our safety. We need to see and avoid all other pilots, avoid crashing into people or property and use good judgment when flying. If someone doesn't agree with those principles, then they don't need to be involved in our sport.

...anyone who doesn't agree with the principle that Tom Banevicius and Jane Doe were 100.00 percent responsible for their instant deaths in their tow training situations because they signed a waiver which predetermined that finding.

2016/04/07 22:27:44 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Mark Webber
2016/04/08 00:48:27 UTC - 3 thumbs up - Eric Hinrichs

Rat own!

RyanB - 2016/04/07 23:01:54 UTC

Very sad news!

Sad? Yes. VERY sad? Not entirely sure. I'll hafta think about this situation a bit more.

The big question is Who was running the tow??? Pat or maybe Michael?

Jane. She was the fucking Pilot In Command personally and individually responsible for her own safety, right? That's a fundamental tenet of our sport.

The tow operator is the instructor for MSC's lesson structure.

And, as I've said before, he'd obviously told her what to do and she elected to ignore him, lock out, and not release. So what's your point?

gluesniffer - 2016/04/07 23:26:27 UTC

I formulated my opinion based on observing mission's program. Obviously something wrong happened and we need to learn from this accident.

Fuck yeah! We could learn to not lock out on foot launched training tows and just stay on the line waiting to slam in. Learning like that could revolutionize the fundamental way we operate.

So far nobody knows chit.

What do we really need to know beyond the facts that the motherfuckers killed a Hang One student and are now into Day Six of keeping their mouths tightly shut?

But the school is run in a professional manner.

Obviously. Professionally run schools are EXPECTED to mangle and kill students every once in a while.

Some schools are teaching by ground tow from day one. This school waits until people can foot launch.

Fuck yeah! Jane would've been killed a lot sooner and a lot worse if she hadn't been able to foot launch.

Golden child thinks all ground towing is dangerous. Should ushpa end towing instruction?

No. Competent towing instruction should end u$hPa. That's the fundamental mission of Kite Strings and I'm feeling more optimistic about the future with each passing month.

I don't know. I do know people are angry at Pat for other reasons and might have a bias when it comes these recent accidents.

Yes, I confess to having a bias against sleazy incompetent dickheads like Pat. Is that so very wrong?

P.S...

Steve Davy - 2013/09/06 01:07:07 UTC

I talked with Pat about Lin's little adventure and what's been done to avoid a repeat.

`
When asked if a guillotine had been installed he expressed that he didn't like/trust the added complexity. And that his fix was to go with a two string that can't be configured incorrectly.

Note that there was no guillotine installed at the power control end because Pat's not a Tad Eareckson / Rube Goldberg / Heath Robinson kinda guy. So even when - let's call him - Karl CUT THE POWER while Jane was trying to fix a bad thing because she didn't wanna start over there was still way more line tension than was needed to continue the lockout. And we know that to a one hundred percent certainty from Lin's video and undisputed account of Harold Johnson's actions.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34243
Fatal HG crash in Tres Pinos CA 4-3-2016

Eric Hinrichs - 2016/04/08 00:38:45 UTC

As Ryan V, I'm feeling the need to speak up on this sad subject, especially because a lot of patently false information is being presented.
I'll address just a few.

I think you'll have to. Addressing it all is a 24/7 job for at least three individuals.

Lin Lyons - 2016/04/07 03:29:57 UTC

They have been towing pilots there for decades, with a pretty good safety record. It is true that I had a parachute deployment, but it was my mistake, not theirs.

False, false, and false.
Not sure where you get your information or ideas.

Just pulls whatever he feels like outta his ass. SOP for 99 percent of the people who fly these things.

I was working for Pat when he started his tow out there, and was his main guinea pig when setting it up.

I was the primary guinea pig for the scooter tow system Santos Mendoza would shortly thereafter use to slam Frank Sauber in. 1996/04/28 - coming up on twenty years now.

It wasn't decades ago.
The safety record is very questionable being that we hear about major problems fairly frequently. I can guarantee that there are many other issues and incidents that most of us never hear about.

Like I was just saying four posts back.

You were under paid instruction when your accident occurred, why would it be all your fault? I was at the club meeting when Pat showed us what went wrong, and it made me sick hearing him put all the blame on you.

Read Page 67 of the excellent book, Towing Aloft, by Dennis Pagen and Bill Bryden for the Dennis Pagen / Mike Robertson / Greg Black description of the incident in which I pulled all the line off Mike's step-tow winch at Ellenville on the evening of 1994/06/10.

Towing Aloft - 1998/01

While step towing, a pilot ignoring warnings from the winch crew, pulled the line all the way off the winch. Worried about the line snagging, he then released the line and draped 7000 feet of Spectra over the small town he was instructed to avoid. One can only imagine the damage and danger steel cable would have caused going over houses and several dozen power lines.

Putting all the blame on T** at K*** S****** wasn't quite enough. There are seven flat out lies packed into that paragraph. And ya wonder why Dennis, Mike, Greg - not to mention Pat - have never gone onto the web where they could be publicly engaged?

gluesniffer - 2016/04/07 23:26:27 UTC

I formulated my opinion based on observing mission's program. Obviously something wrong happened and we need to learn from this accident. So far nobody knows chit. But the school is run in a professional manner.

False
Is it professional to charge someone, then not deliver the product?

In hang gliding? YES.

Is it optimal to pass students back and forth between lots of instructors?

What's it matter? Don't they all suck bigtime to about the same degree?

Maybe you should talk with more of his former students and the general flying community. Or maybe with some of the instructors that have worked with him.
Yes, hgflyer, slopeskimmer, and I all have issues with how Pat does business and his "professionalism," but then again all of us have worked for him and have been frustrated with many of his approaches to business, teaching, and free flight in general.

Glenn Zapien - 2016/04/08 01:03:28 UTC

I keep thinking something tragic like this is going to bring people together..

It is. Rather astoundingly it's even brought T** at K*** S****** together with Ryan Instant-Hands-Free-Release Voight together - for the moment anyway.

Wish the accident never happened at all.

Let's take a Jack Show poll to see how many people are with you on that.

gluesniffer - 2016/04/08 01:38:37 UTC

Eric,

I think optimal is different than professional. I don't like the multiple instructor meathod either.

I think you meant to say: "I don't like the multiple instructor meat heads either." Please correct me if I'm mistaken.

But he has dealt with me in a professional manner.

I'd like to have you dealt with in a professional manner. But right now I'm lacking the appropriate underworld contacts.

I think his syllabus is still solid...

I'll bet Jane did too - all the way to impact.

...and I would still send someone to his school.

I never had the slightest doubt. And I'm confident that Pat would reciprocate by sending someone to your school.

You obviously know him better, and might have an even better method. Thanks for being a guinnea pig, because I have had some fun ass flights on that system.

And Zack Marzec...

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3713/9655904048_89cce6423a_o.png


...had tons of fun ass flights the aerotow system that Quest had been involved in perfecting for twenty years. Then he had one that wasn't particularly fun ass. Then Quest got involved in perfecting their aerotow system a bit more.

Of the three recent accidents, the first pinos thread was caused from what exactly? Lyon's had his bad connection, which was an error in operations procedure...

Which included studiously not preflighting students on the launch pad.

...and this third?
This thread has had a lot of talk, but very few specifics.

Why do you think that is, Glenn? How come Pat's got so many assholes defending him while Pat himself can't be bothered to defend him and tell all us muppets what a really great guy he really is?

If people want to bag Pat, that thread should begin else where.

This one "else where" enough for ya, motherfucker?

This thread should be about the accident specifics, who was at fault and how we get better.

And bagging Pat is irrelevant to this discussion HOW? If somebody were to shoot the sonuvabitch I'll bet you'd see a significant improvement in towing operations coast to coast.

I would get towed there right now, until I hear why it is unsafe.

Which is exactly what Jane was doing Sunday.

Richard Palmon - 2016/04/08 07:56:48 UTC

I have seen my share of HEARTBREAK!

Shit happens, dude. We engage in a sport that has risk and that is part of the attraction.

Richard Palmon - 2016/04/08 08:15:26 UTC
It's unsafe for those who Pat says have the RIGHT STUFF! This is a matter of the students proving their ability, worth or loyalty! This has nothing to do with INSTURCTION!

Let us know when/if you've got something intelligible to say.

Richard Palmon - 2016/04/08 08:24:38 UTC

If the ushpa is basing it's opinion on Pat and Region 2? Then the ushpa is just as liable and ignorant as Pat and his EGO.

What is it people say about fish rotting from the head down?

Finally caught up.

You pump CO2 into the atmosphere it gets warmer and you melt a little arctic sea ice. Then there's less reflection and more absorption of solar energy. So the water gets a little warmer and a little more sea ice melts. And...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=32673
This is terrible

Dave Pendzick - 2015/03/30 17:42:41 UTC

This is not going to end well for us...