Matt Pruett (entelin) - 2017/02/16 04:14:04 UTC
Minnesota
A couple weeks after my first solo, I had incorrectly setup the alpha, managing to get the wing tucked under the crossbar, this went unnoticed in my preflight...
Including the stomp test that you always do. Right?
...(checking this is actually in the falcon & alpha manuals)...
Check that the sail is not caught on the crossbar end, nor on any of the hardware.
...and I launched (aerotow) with a slow right hand turn which was uncorrectable with full opposite input, locked out at maybe 200ft...
So how come you didn't actuate your easily reachable Industry Standard release? What was the problem? Needed...
The reason this is a trick question, is the same reason it should be irrelevant that the Lookout release has less mechanical advantage, and may be difficult to use during the high tension of a lock-out. There are other releases (no so common anymore, thankfully) that could become full-on inoperable when the tension increased...
So... are you willing and able to manually release when you believe you are entering an unrecoverable lockout? Hint- if you are *entering* an unrecoverable lockout... you should have already A) steered yourself back where you belong, and if you were unable to do A then do B) release before before BEFORE entering an unrecoverable lockout situation.
Failing to fly the glider where you want it to fly is a serious situation... a lockout is an even more serious situation, but it is a symptom that follows that first problem. Failing to recognize the first problem, and remedy or escape *BEFORE* the following lockout ensues... THAT is what people seem not to get here.
Davis wrote pretty extensively about this when the comp-fatality happened, and even shared how the comp rules were written to ENCOURAGE "when in doubt, just get out". Frankly, a lockout should never happen... it's not a single failure, and it's not a problem with the equipment or with the mechanics or physics of what is being attempted... a lockout can only happen as the result of operator error(S)... plural.
...TWO hands to fly the glider when things weren't going all that well?
...the weak link broke.
WHAT weak link broke? 100 pound Greenspot? 130 is only good for...
I once locked out on an early laminarST aerotowing. went past vertical and past 45 degrees to the line of pull-- and the load forces were increasing dramatically. The weaklink blew and the glider stalled--needed every bit of the 250 ft agl to speed up and pull out. I'm alive because I didn't use a stronger one.
...250 feet and up.
Once off tow at lower speed, the glider was controllable despite a desire to fly somewhat diagonally
Funny we didn't hear anything from you on how totally full o' shit Ryan is.
And note the total dearth of comments about the obvious inability to release in any of the current subsequent three dozen posts in that thread. (Now if he'd been a quarter second late on his flare timing...)
---
2017/04/19 23:30:00 UTC
With the increase in Gasoline and other such nessesities to tugging. Is anyone thinking about raising tug rates? We have been charging 20.00 to 2000 feet for a long time and wondered what the going rates are around the USA. I would be interested in what everyone is charging for: Solo pilots. Tandem Pilots and Student/Tandem flights. Thanks
Eric Thorstenson - 2011/02/10 16:46:49 UTC
Wannabe Ranch Crew
Morton, Washington
Hey Mark and group,
We charge ten dollars per thousand feet and of course no one is getting rich doing this, however we have a hell of a lot of fun!
We have no plans to increase our rates for tows.
What I am more concerned about is USGHA's new requirement for the aerotow rating and having to do two tandems to show proficiency.
Not sure about everyone outside of the large flight parks but this has a HUGE impact on us smaller tow parks and what it will cost us to get people a rating. We have a hard time as it is and now this... not long after the private pilot issue. What's next?
Larry Jorgensen - 2011/02/17 13:37:47 UTC
Air Adventures NW
Spanaway, Washington
It did not come from the FAA, it came from a USHPA Towing Committee made up of three large aerotow operations that do tandems for hire.
Appalling.
And so then they had to back off to:
The United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association, Inc. - 2011/05
Standard Operating Procedure
12. Rating System
02. Pilot Proficiency System
12. Hang Gliding Special Skill Endorsements
-A. Aerotow Rating
-5. Must perform and demonstrate proper technique for at least one normal and one crosswind takeoff (actual or simulated) with a tandem pilot. Must demonstrate the ability to control the glider position within the "cone of safety" behind the aerotow vehicle by performing "cross" and "diamond" maneuvers during tow at altitude with a tandem rated pilot who is experienced and proficient at performing those maneuvers. (Note: This checks for positive control and lockout prevention skills, somewhat like the "boxing the wake" maneuver used for sailplane aerotow check flights, but "boxing the wake" must not be performed by hang gliders on tow due to lack of 3-axis control.) The candidate must demonstrate the ability to recover from roll oscillations induced by the tandem pilot. The candidate must also demonstrate the ability to properly react to a weak link/tow rope break simulation with a tandem rated pilot, initiated by the tandem pilot at altitude, but at a lower than normal release altitude. Such demonstrations should be made in smooth air. A minimum of 2 tandem flight demonstrations must be made to the rating official.
-7. When tandem aerotow instruction is not available, solo-only aerotow instruction may be offered as an alternative. To receive an aerotow rating at the completion of solo-only aerotow instruction, the candidate must perform a minimum of 5 solo aerotow flights under the direct supervision of the rating official during which he/she must demonstrate successful, confident, controlled launches and flight under tow to release at altitude, with a smooth release and turn to the right when transitioning to free flight. He/she must demonstrate proper directional and pitch control resulting in proper tracking of the aerotow vehicle in both straight and turning flight and appropriate maintenance of proper tow line tension and airspeed. Additional instruction or mentorship should be provided to help the newly rated aerotow pilot gradually transition to towing in mid-day thermal/turbulent conditions.
that outrageous bullshit. If you were getting your rating from a tandem thrill ride operator you still needed to buy tandem instruction in order to become a qualified AT pilot. Otherwise you could get just as qualified just flying solo. That persisted through the 2016/10/22 edition. But as of early last month:
The United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association, Inc. - 2017/03/04
Standard Operating Procedure
12. Rating System
02. Pilot Proficiency System
11. Special Skill Endorsements
-5. Aerotow (AT)
d. Demonstrates successful, confident, controlled launches and flight under tow to release at altitude, with a smooth release and turn to the right when transitioning to free flight. Must demonstrate proper directional and pitch control resulting in proper tracking of the aerotow vehicle in both straight and turning flight and appropriate maintenance of proper tow line tension and airspeed. If aerotowing skills were gained through tandem instruction, the candidate must demonstrate all skills during solo flights as well.
u$hPa no longer forces you to buy tandem instruction if you're getting your rating from a tandem thrill ride operator. They leave that to the discretion of the tandem thrill ride operator.
You can even...
g. The candidate must also demonstrate the ability to properly react to a weak link/tow rope break simulation, initiated by the pilot at altitude, but at a lower than normal release altitude. Such demonstrations should be made in smooth air.
...surprise yourself with a simulated weak link inconvenience / increase in the safety of the towing operation and react accordingly - just as long as you're at two thousand feet in smooth air under normal or lower tow tension. Sounds like something one should be able to pass reasonably easy after five or so practice runs.
The sailplane guys have been doing this for a long time, and there are many hang glider pilots and quite a few tug pilots who don't understand what the sailplane guys have learned over the years. It certainly would help if hang glider towing methods and training were standardized to the degree that they are in the sailplane world.
Of course in sailplane training the weak link drills are conducted LOW in whatever air happens to be available to test the student's ability to set up and execute a normal landing - not to find out if the student is capable of pulling in / shoving the stick forward in response to an abrupt loss of airspeed (Hang 0.3 level bullshit).
It's more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.
If coming and being off tow is such a fucking lark compared to the alternative then how come demonstrating the "skill" to make the transition safely is a requirement for the AT rating? How come...
I have personally had numerous weak link breaks on tow, both low and high, after hitting turbulence and have never felt in danger of a tumble. I have witnessed countless others have weak link breaks with no serious problems. We train aero tow pilots how to handle this situation and I am certain that Zach had also encountered this situation many times before and knew how to react properly.
...pilots who check out OK on aerotowing need to be TRAINED by the Top Gun instructors at Quest to be able to handle the increase in the safety of the towing operation?
Oh, in case it's not obvious (which it doesn't seem to be), once someone starts telling me what the "sole" purpose of a weaklink is, I tune them out as they have no clue what they're talking about.
The United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association, Inc. - 2017/03/04
Standard Operating Procedure
12. Rating System
02. Pilot Proficiency System
11. Special Skill Endorsements
-5. Aerotow (AT)
-j. Demonstrates to the satisfaction of the rating official knowledge of proper weak link use for the towing skill under evaluation. The pilot under evaluation must demonstrate an understanding of the following:
--i. The purpose of weak links.
"PURPOSE" - singular. So you tune out u$hPa - the entity which writes the rules under which all US aerotowing operates, is recognized by the FAA to do so, certified you as an instructor, tug pilot, tandem thrill ride operator - as it has no clue what it's talking about. And all you rock stars and fucking geniuses lack the interest and/or clout necessary to get the SOPs in sync with reality.
Up from surgery... Plates on L2 while it heals, will come out after. Feeling good.
I won't comment on my crash just yet. Maybe after the CAA investigation.
Closing on seven months now, Jim. Still not a word outta CAA, let alone from your keenly intellectual self. How many thousands of man hours have been expended and from whose pockets is the funding coming? And are you personally having to chip in anything substantial to be found as blameless as you were the previous time...
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 09:25:57 UTC
Only later, when we're visiting them in the hospital can they begin to hear what we've told them all along.
Yesterday was a light and variable day with expected good lift. Zach was the second tow of the afternoon. We launched to the south into a nice straight in wind. A few seconds into the tow I hit strong lift.
Zach hit it and went high and to the right. The weak link broke at around 150 feet or so and Zach stalled and dropped a wing or did a wingover, I couldn't tell. The glider tumbled too low for a deployment.
Mark hits "strong lift" a few seconds into the tow, Zack hits the same air 250 feet / 5 seconds later, rockets up, et cetera. No surprises whatsoever up to and including the stall.
Little news now (Quest Air, Groveland, Florida, USA)
Paul Tjaden writes on Facebook:
We will post more about the accident on the Quest FB page in the coming days.
- After we've had some time to spin this one in favor of the Flight Park Mafia in general and Quest in particular to the maximum extent possible and get all the players on the same page.
- Instead of directly onto the forums upon which the people who understand what's going on and what sleazy lying motherfuckers you guys really are can engage and challenge you and the crap you put out as "facts". (To the extent that Jack and Davis will allow anyway.)
For now I will say that it appears to have been a fluke accident.
Like THIS:
Lauren Tjaden - 2003/12/14
This fall at Ridgely, I had a weak link break at maybe fifty feet. I thought I was going to have to land in the soybeans - the very tall soybeans - when I looked at my angle. But, my glider stalled quite dramatically almost instantly (hard not to stall when you have a break), and dove towards the ground (a bit disconcerting from so low).
near fluke accident? Zack's was a fluke because his pro toad bridle / standard aerotow weak link combo stalled him too severely to be able to do anything before he hit the runway?
Weather conditions were very benign with light winds and blue skies and the glider was in good airworthy condition.
Zack's chest and abdomen absorbed most of the impact.
We are all sick about this untimely loss of our good friend, Zack.
- Would you all have been sick if the loss had been more timely?
- Any thoughts on how the loss could've been made more timely?
- Our good friend, Zack - spelled correctly (for the first and last time).
A few days ago I promised that I would write a more complete accident report regarding the tragic hang gliding accident we recently had at Quest Air resulting in the death of our good friend, Zach Marzec.
Your good friend now spelled INcorrectly. (Now that we've gotten our disinformation machinery geared up and rolling.)
I do want to warn you in advance that there will be no great revelations from what you already know.
That's OK, Paul. This one isn't exactly...
Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974
"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson
...rocket science.
Many times Zach flew with a video camera which could have possibly told us more but on this occasion he did not.
Well, all indications at this time point to an invisible dust devil. And a camera isn't much good for showing invisible stuff anyway.
The weather conditions seemed quite benign.
Well they were - for the Dragonfly anyway. Mark just reports hitting strong lift and having absolutely no problem with it. And when was the last time you heard a hang glider complaining about hitting strong lift or taking action to avoid it? "I was gonna fly today but the guys already up were reporting really strong lift so I decided to leave it in the bag and wait for a better day."
It was a typical winter day in central Florida with sunny skies, moderate temperatures and a light south west wind.
- North is left, takeoff is left to right, wind is lower right to upper left.
- How did it compare to the conditions on 2016/05/21 when you assholes killed an airline pilot trying to get up out of your field?
It was, however, a high pressure, dry air day that sometimes creates punchy conditions with small, tight, strong thermals versus the big fat soft ones that Florida is famous for.
Mark didn't report any punchy conditions with small, tight thermals. Lemme quote you what he reported:
Mark Frutiger - 2013/02/03 13:41
A few seconds into the tow I hit strong lift. Zach hit it and went high and to the right.
Mark Frutiger - 2013/02/08 19:12:21 UTC
Zack hit the lift a few seconds after I did. He was high and to the right of the tug and was out of my mirror when the weak ling broke. The load on the tug was not excessive as with a lockout, but I was not surprised when the weak link broke. I was still in the thermal when I caught sight of Zack again. I did not see the entry to the tumble, but I did see two revolutions of a forward tumble before kicking the tug around to land. The thermal was still active in the area that I had just launched from so I did a go round and landed on a runway 90 degrees cross to the direction we were towing in.
So how come you're introducing this duplicitous crap? Don't want your customers and the public realizing that with the shit way you douchebags choose to run this show they're just rolling dice every time they launch into potentially soarable conditions?
Time of day was approximately 3:00. None of these conditions were even slightly alarming or would have caused any concern about launching.
How 'bout the day Lauren Eminently-Qualified-Tandem-Pilot Tjaden reported almost eating it from fifty feet in totally normal thermal towing conditions? Maybe you assholes aren't getting alarmed and concerned about the right things.
Zach Marzec was an advanced rated pilot who was a tandem instructor for Kitty Hawk Kites where he logged a huge number of aerotow flights.
- Too large of a number to actually specify. But, trust me, it was really huge!
- His colleagues from up there must be grief stricken beyond all description. Maybe after they've recovered you can run what you have by them and come up with an idea or two of what might have been done differently. A safer weak link...
I'm not saying that you've claimed that a stronger weaklink allows for a greater AOA... I'm telling you that it does.
You know this.
I'll spell it out anyway...
Increases in AOA increase the load factor... push it beyond what the weaklink can stand and *POP*, you're off tow.
Increase the load factor that the weaklink can withstand and you increase the achievable AOA.
This ain't truck towing. There is no pressure limiting mechanism. Push out and you load the line. Push out hard and you'll break the weaklink... that's the whole idea.
You want to break off the towline? Push out... push out hard... it will break.
As others have pointed out, they've used this fact intentionally to get off tow. It works.
You want MORE.
I want you to have less.
This is the fundamental disagreement.
You're afraid of breaking off with a high AOA? Good... tow with a WEAKER weaklink... you won't be able to achieve a high AOA. Problem solved.
I'm sorry that you don't like that the tug pilot has the last word... but tough titties.
Don't like it?
Don't ask me to tow you.
Go troll somewhere else buddy.
I'm over this.
...perhaps.
He was current (flying every day) and was flying his personal glider that he was very familiar with and had towed many times.
Like THIS?:
That's at Currituck on 2011/09/05 launching to the NE with a late afternoon sun behind him. Is it normal to have the bar totally stuffed like that just as the Dragonfly's getting airborne in glassy smooth air? What do you think would happen if he were to hit strong smooth lift within the next couple of seconds? Ya think his Quest Link would work to increase the safety of the towing operation?
(This photo he was proudly displaying on his Facebook site. And it was apparently ringing NO alarm bells for him. Total Darwin material.)
Sorry, I do not have specific numbers of hours or flights logged but experience does not appear to have been an issue.
Oh. A u$hPa / Kitty Hawk tandem aerotow "instructor" for a commercial thrill ride operation. And experience does not appear to have been an issue. Good for us weekender muppets to understand that.
The glider was a Moyes Xtralite.
Still is, probably...
New leading edge section, slap on a fresh Quest Link, good to go.
This glider was a fairly old design. I believe the last ones built were in the mid 1990's, but it was in good, airworthy condition and rigged properly.
Really?
The bar's totally stuffed just coming off the runway and it looks "properly rigged" to you assholes? Tell me how it could be any less properly rigged and still be able to get somebody up through the kill zone.
I know of no reports that this glider is difficult to tow or has any deficiencies for aero towing...
What does the manufacturer say about flying it pro toad? When Bill Moyes, Bobby Bailey, Campbell Bowen, Malcolm Jones... hit Currituck first weekend of August '91 for the Dragonfly promo tour every single one of us used two point bridles to trim the nose down. How have things changed since then?
...but I am not an expert on it and have never flown one.
And since it's a fairly old design it would probably be really difficult to find properly qualified experts for useful comments. Bummer.
How 'bout this, Paul? How 'bout going over the relevant differences between ANY two gliders with which you ARE familiar. (Diversionary load o' crap.)
The glider hit base tube first and sustained very little damage upon impact so it was easy to ascertain that the glider did not appear to have had any structural failure that would have caused the accident.
- Really? From Mark's initial report I was really thinking structural failure. Pro toad glider rockets up in strong lift, pops the Quest Link, stalls, tail slides, tumbles...
Hard to believe something like this could happen minus structural failure.
- How 'bout the pilot? He hit about the same time as the basetube and sustained LOTSA damage. Maybe he had some structural problems that could've caused the accident that were indiscernible from the structural problems precipitated by the accident. Guess we'll never really know for sure.
The tow aircraft was a Moyes Dragonfly with a 914 Rotax engine...
You will only ever need full throttle for the first fifty feet of a tandem tow. Don't ever pull a solo at full throttle... they will not be able to climb with you. You can tow them at 28 mph and you'll still leave them in the dust... they just won't be able to climb with you... weaklinks will go left and right.
Too bad he didn't go full power and have the weak link go left and right. That would've prevented him from getting as deeply into that situation as he did.
...and was piloted by a highly experienced tow pilot.
Someone who surely encounters circumstances like the ones under discussion several times a month. Odd that he hasn't been able to shed much light on this situation.
The tow line was approximately 250 feet long which is standard...
Just like the weak link - one size fits all.
...and Zach was using the "pro tow" method...
Of course he was. He was a pro - right?
...where the tow line is attached directly to a bridle on the pilot's harness and is not attached to the glider at all.
A standard 130 pound test weak link was being used.
Oh, a STANDARD 130 pound test weak link was being used. Let's take a look at how that STANDARD was established:
Quest Air - Aerotow FAQ
The strength of the weak link is crucial to a safe tow. It should be weak enough so that it will break before the pressure of the towline reaches a level that compromises the handling of the glider but strong enough so that it doesn't break every time you fly into a bit of rough air. A good rule of thumb for the optimum strength is one G, or in other words, equal to the total wing load of the glider. Most flight parks use 130 lb. braided Dacron line, so that one loop (which is the equivalent to two strands) is about 260 lb. strong - about the average wing load of a single pilot on a typical glider.
Did it work? Do you think Zack's intention was to rocket up into whipstall attitude when he hit the lift that just smoothly lifted the tug? If not then shouldn't we refine the standard such that the weak link does a better job of breaking when it's supposed to? And shouldn't we also have some serious questions about the total douchebags who established that standard and all the other total douchebags who let them get away with it for...
The Wallaby Ranch Aerotowing Primer for Experienced Pilots - 2017/04/26
Welcome to Wallaby Ranch, the first and largest Aerotow Hang Gliding Flight Park in the World! We're the aerotowing (or "AT") professionals; no-one knows AT like we do; it's all we do, and we do it everyday, year-round.
...decades?
Another pilot...
...who's never had a single public word of commentary on the incident and whose identity has never been revealed.
...had launched with no issues...
Certainly no reason for any suspicion in that regard.
...immediately before the accident.
- Accident? Suck my dick, Paul.
- Cool. No issues. Should've been perfectly safe to go then.
- And I guess a bunch of other pilots launched with no issues immediately after the accident too.
The launch started on the main runway at the north end (2,000 feet long)...
- Funny. I'm getting three thousand feet of easily useable runway from that direction.
...on which you douchebags pulled Jeff Bohl into a fatal lockout behind an underpowered tug last spring?
...and was normal until at approximately 50 feet in altitude...
AGL or MSL?
...when the tow plane hit extremely strong lift elevating it...
ELEVATING it. Not dumping or rocking it or kicking it around.
...quickly and abruptly. Because of the length of the tow line...
...both professional pilots involved had excellent indications of what was about to happen with the glider that free flyers only get from fortuitously positioned birds and other gliders.
...it was a few seconds...
About five.
...later when Zach's glider entered the same strong lift...
The same strong lift that was smoothly lifting the tug and presenting it with zero problems?
...and he was at an estimated 100 to 150 feet in altitude at this time.
Let's start him at the fifty you cited and use the top number. A hundred foot climb in five seconds. Twelve hundred feet per minute climb in smooth air. Probably closer to the lower number.
When the lift/turbulence was encountered...
Where'd the TURBULENCE come from, motherfucker? Up to this point we haven't heard a goddam thing about TURBULENCE from any source or had any reason to believe there was anything happening other than massive smooth dream lift.
...the weak link on the tow line...
Really? I thought you just said:
...Zach was using the "pro tow" method where the tow line is attached directly to a bridle on the pilot's harness...
So how'd we get a weak link on the towline. Never in my entire AT career have I ever seen one of you assholes put a weak link on either end of a towline.
If "a standard 130 pound test weak link was being used" on the end of the towline the glider wouldn't have rolled three feet.
What's the problem? Did the outrageous lie you just told us about TURBULENCE get you so rattled that you were unable to continue your fictional narrative halfway competently?
...broke as the nose of the glider pitched up quickly to a very high angle of attack.
At which time it increased the safety of the towing operation.
It's more of this crappy argument that being on tow is somehow safer than being off tow.
Apparently, the glider stalled or possibly did a short tail slide and then stalled...
Oh. The glider stalled or possibly did a short tail slide before stalling and THEN stalled. If the glider had just kept flying backwards without stalling he'd have probably been OK. (Maybe just a bit off on his spot landing and/or flare timing.) Do you dickheads ever proofread the fiction put together before publication?
...and then nosed down and tumbled.
Donnell Hewett - 1980/12
Now I've heard the argument that "Weak links always break at the worst possible time, when the glider is climbing hard in a near stall situation..."
Eye witnesses...
...whom we're not naming, counting, identifying as pilots and/or spectators...
...said the glider tumbled twice and...
And who gives a flying fuck what happened after the glider stalled?
...then struck the ground with the base tube low. Due to the extremely low altitude, there was no time for the pilot to deploy his reserve parachute.
- How 'bout his primary parachute?
- Oh. The "pilot" had time to stall and maybe tailslide at maybe 150 feet but no time to deploy his chute. Bullshit. He had time to get it out, maybe time to get it fully deployed, good chance of walking away with a ballistic. But this idiot incident should no way in hell be used as a justification for starting a discussion about parachutes.
- But if he'd been locked out with a jammed release he'd have had plenty of time to use his razor-sharp cutting tool to slash through his lines in an instant.
Zach was conscious immediately after the accident but died in route to the hospital.
- Cause? Suffering of fatal injuries? (Probably would've been OK with a full face helmet.)
- So was he able to express his appreciation for his Rooney Link...
Yes, go read that incident report.
Please note that the weaklink *saved* her ass. She still piled into the earth despite the weaklink helping her... for the same reason it had to help... lack of towing ability. She sat on the cart, like so many people insist on doing, and took to the air at Mach 5.
That never goes well.
Yet people insist on doing it.
Yes, Paul. Everything we've heard up to this point has been a FACT:
- Zach
- pro tow bridle
- standard 130 pound test weak link
- turbulence
- weak link on the tow line
- possibly did a short tail slide and then stalled
- there was no time for the pilot to deploy his reserve parachute
...anything else would be pure speculation.
100.00 percent pure SPECULATION...
speculation
- the forming of a theory or conjecture without firm evidence
- late 16th century: from Latin speculate- 'observed from a vantage point,' from the verb speculari, from specula 'watchtower,' from specere 'to look.'
The most dangerous force operating in hang gliding - an evil that no REAL pilot should tolerate for an instant at any level.
I am thinking that perhaps the conditions had little to nothing to do with this accident. I'm thinking that the pilot made a mistake, letting go of the bar with one hand. and the pitch became far too great far too fast.
This comes from what Russell told me, what April told me and what the first responders told Belinda. Why did he let go?
Davis Straub - 2016/07/14 02:50:47 UTC
EMT speculated that he was reaching for his camera as it slipped out of a pocket.
I have personally had numerous weak link breaks on tow, both low and high, after hitting turbulence...
So what the fuck does TURBULENCE - which kicks a glider around a little five seconds after the pilot sees the tug getting kicked around a little - have to do with this one in which the pro toad got his nose blasted up by a monster thermal?
...and have never felt in danger of a tumble.
See above pigfucker. Does anyone think for a nanosecond that when Zack was in a situation that made THIS:
situation (in glassy smooth air with everything normal up to that point) look extraordinarily tame he was thinking about getting back on the cart for a quick relight?
I have witnessed countless others have weak link breaks with no serious problems.
I've witnessed untold thousands of dickheads go up with the easily reachable cheap bent pin crap you dickheads pass off as towing equipment without getting scratched whenever everything's going right. What's your point?
We train aero tow pilots how to handle this situation...
Oh really? You pull pro toads up into monster thermals at under a hundred feet that rocket them up until their Quest Links increase the safety of the towing operation and then rate them on their pulling in and not tumbling skills? Got any videos? You lying motherfucker.
So tell me how you do that safely on gliders with owners' manuals that state:
Flight operation of the Sport 2 should be limited to non-aerobatic maneuvers; those in which the pitch angle will not exceed 30 degrees nose up or nose down from the horizon, and the bank angle will not exceed 60 degrees.
Who's "we"? Quest but not Wallaby and Cloud 9? We go above and beyond?:
The United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association, Inc. - 2016/10/22
Standard Operating Procedure
12. Rating System
02. Pilot Proficiency System
11 Hang Gliding Special Skill Endorsements
-A. Special Skills attainable by Novice and above (H2-H5).
05. Aerotow (AT)
-f. Must demonstrate the ability to control the glider position within the “cone of safety” behind the aerotow vehicle. The candidate must also demonstrate the ability to properly react to a weak link/tow rope break simulation with a tandem pilot, initiated by the tandem pilot at altitude, but at a lower than normal release altitude. Such demonstrations should be made in smooth air.
Have you lobbied u$hPa to change the rating to get it down to 150 feet max and in strong lift and turbulence and pro toad?
If you train aero tow pilots how to handle this situation where are the scores of them posting on the Jack and Davis Shows talking about how safe and easy it is and pinpointing Zack's obvious errors?
And if equipment issues weren't factors worth discussion how come we rather abruptly stopped hearing anything about standard aerotow weak links and 130 pound Greenspot...
...and I am certain that Zach had also encountered this situation many times before...
Oh really?
I started aerotowing 1986/08/01 - probably before Zack's first birthday - and never encountered that situation ONCE. Never even heard about that situation occurring ever anywhere to anyone at any altitude. Can't even think of a thermal or turbulence induced incident of any flavor of towing that needed to be or could've been remedied by a parachute. And I'm still not hearing the scores of Jack and Davis Show douchebags chiming in and posting videos.
And how 'bout you and Lauren, Paul? Tell us about all the times you guys have encountered this situation and walked away smelling like roses.
...and knew how to react properly.
Lessee... You stuff the bar and wait for the glider to start flying again? How many simulations does it generally take before people start reacting properly? What do you do with the bodies of the people who get it backwards and push out? Feed 'em to the gators?
Apparently, Zach simply hit strong low level turbulence, probably a dust devil that could not be seen due to the lack of dust in Florida...
Here that, people of varying ages? Florida needs more dust. Start saving yours up, get your friends and family to do the same, ship it to Quest, save some lives.
...the nose went too high and he tumbled at a very low altitude.
- But we're sure he'd been trained to react to that situation properly, encountered it many times. I don't understand what went wrong this time.
- Oops, Paul. Left out the part about the standard aerotow weak link increase the safety of the towing operation between the nose going too high and the tumble.
- As long as you're not purely speculating. Outrageous bald faced lies that insult the reader's intelligence are perfectly OK.
Strong dust devils in Florida definitely do exist even though they are rare.
'Specially the ones that generate smooth powerful lift across the areas of five hundred foot diameter circles.
My wife had a near miss when she encountered a severe dusty a couple years ago...
While she was going up pro toad with the focal point of her safe towing system.
...and I almost lost a brand new $18,000 ATOS VX when it was torn from its tie down and thrown upside down.
While it was on tow with a standard aerotow weak link as the focal point of its safe towing system.
Gee. Here I was thinking that these were pretty much nonevents that we're all trained to properly react to.
I wish I could shed more light on this accident but I am afraid this is all we know and probably will know.
And surprisingly it's a lot less than we knew right after Mark first posted:
Yesterday was a light and variable day with expected good lift. Zach was the second tow of the afternoon. We launched to the south into a nice straight in wind. A few seconds into the tow I hit strong lift.
Zach hit it and went high and to the right. The weak link broke at around 150 feet or so and Zach stalled and dropped a wing or did a wingover, I couldn't tell. The glider tumbled too low for a deployment.
Zach was a great guy with an incredible outlook and zest for life. He will be sorely missed.
And we can best honor his memory by continuing to do the exact same shit he did and expect better results. Not much choice anyway since everything that happened with the tug driver in the same air feeling everything and watching most of it in the mirror and several eyewitnesses on the ground is so mysterious and fundamentally inexplicable.
Thanks so much for writing this report. There have been countless serious HG accidents in recent years that never were properly investigated or reported and I'm glad you took on the tough task of writing one for this tragic accident.
- And here we have the serious HG accident being properly investigated and reported by the top people at the very operation at which the serious HG accident occurred. Who could ask for better totally unbiased accounting and findings! Is this a great sport or what!
- Yeah Steve. It's WAY more taxing to write totally fictional accounts of fatal incidents than just reporting facts and obvious issues of criminal negligence and incompetence.
Asshole.
Guest - 2013/02/08 04:21:13 UTC
...and then the weaklink breaks. The horror...
NO! The RELIEF! Dontchya know that if you're trained to react properly...
If you had been properly trained on how to tow, you would know that it shouldn't be a big deal when a weak link breaks, even just after coming off the cart, if you are doing things right.
...a weak link break is a mere inconvenience at worst and in a situation like this - pro toad, monster thermal, kill zone, with the glider climbing hard in a near stall situation - a weak link break protects you from climbing even harder into an even nearer stall situation. This is a proven system that works and it worked as well as circumstances would allow in this situation. Just look how well the glider came out of it:
Steve Morris - 2013/02/08 18:46:46 UTC
It would be interesting to know if Zack lost his grip on the basetube when he hit the turbulence.
Yeah Steve. He's the first person in the history of hang glider towing to get shaken off the basetube by turbulence. Both hands, remarkably enough. Even more remarkable given that no turbulence existed prior to Paul's inventing of it over five days after the actual incident.
This could have been a major factor in what happened next.
Since the instantaneous loss of a couple hundred pounds of thrust with the glider standing on its tail really can't account for the subsequent whipstall and tumble.
It would also be useful to know what the tug pilot thought of the turbulence level of the event relative to other tows he's performed.
Read his post from less than 24 hours after the incident and before the Quest crew got through its five day damage control revision. No mention whatsoever of turbulence. Just a steep climb ABOVE THE TUG and a bit to the right. And DO try to impress that upon all the total douchebags postulating PROPWASH as a factor. The fuckin' glider was flying fine and under what control the pro toad bridle would allow...
Were ya able to handle the turbulence OK? I'm assuming adequately 'cause you're not saying anything to indicate otherwise.
He was high and to the right of the tug and was out of my mirror when the weak ling broke.
Thank God for that weak ling.
The load on the tug was not excessive as with a lockout...
- Right, Mark. When a 0.8 G solo weak link breaks in a lockout the load on the tug is much more excessive than it is when a 0.8 G solo weak link breaks during a pitch up and climb. Approximately 0.5 Gs more. You can look it up in the tables in the excellent book, Towing Aloft, by Dennis Pagen and Bill Bryden. (Idiot.)
- Define EXCESSIVE. How is it possible to transmit an EXCESSIVE load limited by a single 130 pound Greenspot bridle end loop when you use a double for tandems?
...but I was not surprised when the weak link broke.
And, more importantly, you weren't the least bit endangered. We should be thankful that 1.0 pilots and 1.8 planes survived the deadly turbulence OK.
I was still in the thermal when I caught sight of Zack again.
Didn't you read the Official Quest Revision? It was an invisible dust devil. You must've been feeling the associated turbulence and mistaking it for a monster thermal.
I did not see the entry to the tumble...
So why not put the ground eyewitnesses on the line? They can't be bothered to participate in the discussion or has Quest bought their silence the way Mission kept everyone quiet after they murdered Nancy Tachibana a bit over a year ago?
...but I did see two revolutions of a forward tumble...
Ya think he just stalled and tumbled or tailslid, stalled, and tumbled? Never mind, that would call for speculation on your part. Sorry.
...before kicking the tug around to land. The thermal was still active in the area that I had just launched from...
You mean the invisible dust devil that nobody could see because you don't have any dust? How did you know it was still active in the area you had just launched from if it was invisible?
...so I did a go round and landed on a runway 90 degrees cross to the direction we were towing in.
- To the west I'd guess based on the cross.
- So how'd your next tow go? Did you try any different experimental equipment or did you play it safe and stick with the tried and true stuff?
I would be more than happy to answer any questions pertaining to what I saw and experienced, but I prefer not to engage in speculation at this point.
- Naw, if you thought that Zack would've been OK with a two point bridle and/or a 1.5 G weak link you wouldn't be able to say anything 'cause that would be engaging in speculation and thus extremely dangerous. You might kill even more people than you did that afternoon.
- So what are you saying? That prior to this point - at which the official cause of the fatal inconvenience stall has been determined to have been turbulence - you'd have preferred to have engaged in speculation? Or that after all the data has been properly collected you'd be willing to engage in speculation? All of the above?
- So I guess you're totally on board with the official finding that everything was being done as right as possible / in hindsight nothing would/ve been done any differently, shit just happens sometimes. (Note nobody's saying anything about streamers - the way they always do in the wake of ACTUAL invisible dust devil events.)
Thanks,
Mark Frutiger
Tell us about the turbulence, Mark. That's already cleared the speculation bar so you'd be on totally solid ground.
The turbulance level was strong, among the strongest thermal activity I've felt leaving the field.
- And here "turbulance" - which we can't even spell right - has become synonymous with thermal activity. Fair enough. When airline pilots are blasting along at three or four hundred miles per hour through thermals they refer to it as turbulence and flick the seatbelt lights on.
- And before in your pre spin report you made absolutely no mention of turbulence and described NOTHING in the way of aircraft response or variable towline tension consistent with turbulence. Now it ranks as some of the strongest you've ever felt leaving the field. Which could still equal zilch 'cause you may never have felt any significant thermal activity leaving the field. And notice the motherfucker limits his statement to "LEAVING THE FIELD". Doesn't say anything about the turbulence he's felt after clearing two hundred feet. And we haven't heard that he's killed anybody at Quest in turbulence at altitude - which is where we all know we frequently get the shit kicked out of us on good days.
I've encountered stronger mechanical mixing, but the vertical velocity this time was very strong.
one strand is 130 lb., two strands, (one loop), is more. And I don't think it was Greenspot.
- So ya have no actual fuckin' clue what the actual strength was - other than "not excessive" when he transitioned from flying to whip inconvenience mode - but whatever it was it was OK 'cause it's about what we use all the time and has a really long track record.
- Gee Mark. And there I was thinking that you tug pilots had to know...
same day, 11:33:14 after this one, the top two Kite Strings topics in terms of number of posts were tied at 1614 apiece - and the tie remains at this point.
Well, I'm assuming there was some guff about the tug pilot's right of refusal?
Gee, didn't think we'd have to delve into "pilot in command"... I figured that one's pretty well understood in a flying community.
It's quite simple.
The tug is a certified aircraft... the glider is an unpowered ultralight vehicle. The tug pilot is the pilot in command. You are a passenger. You have the same rights and responsibilities as a skydiver.
It's a bitter pill I'm sure, but there you have it.
BTW, if you think I'm just spouting theory here, I've personally refused to tow a flight park owner over this very issue. I didn't want to clash, but I wasn't towing him. Yup, he wanted to tow with a doubled up weaklink. He eventually towed (behind me) with a single and sorry to disappoint any drama mongers, we're still friends. And lone gun crazy Rooney? Ten other tow pilots turned him down that day for the same reason.
Here's a little bit of bitter reality that ya'll get to understand straight off. I won't be sugar coating it, sorry.
You see, I'm on the other end of that rope.
I want neither a dead pilot on my hands or one trying to kill me.
And yes. It is my call. PERIOD.
On tow, I am the PIC.
Now, that cuts hard against every fiber of every HG pilot on the planet and I get that.
Absolutely no HG pilot likes hearing it. Not me, not no one. BUT... sorry, that's the way it is.
Accept it and move on.
Not only can you not change it, it's the law... in the very literal sense.
Then again, Russell Brown had us double up behind him after six breaks in a row at Zapata. We couldn't figure out why we had so many breaks so quickly. Maybe just coincidence.
...just coincidence. Lotsa Quest Links get broken that way.
It only needed a reasonable pull in to get speed control and then flare a bit with no significant roll correction needed so it didn't make me work hard.
A mere inconvenience. The insignificant price you paid for the increase in the safety of the towing operation from which you and your tug pilot benefitted. It was just the relight at which you made it to altitude that was REALLY dangerous for you and your tug pilot. Think of that pop just off the cart you experienced as an extra empty chamber in the cylinder you spin while playing Russian roulette. The greater the percentage of empty chambers the safer the game.
So why are you raising the issue here? You didn't get the opinions...
Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 09:25:57 UTC
See, you don't get to hook up to my plane with whatever you please. Not only am I on the other end of that rope... and you have zero say in my safety margins... I have no desire what so ever to have a pilot smashing himself into the earth on my watch. So yeah, if you show up with some non-standard gear, I won't be towing you. Love it or leave it. I don't care.
So please, find me something... that you didn't make... that I can go out and buy from a store... that's rated and quality controlled... that fits your desire for a "non one size fits all" model, and *maybe* we can talk.
But you see... I'm the guy you've got to convince.
(or whoever your tug pilot may be... but we all tend to have a similar opinion about this)
You've not heard about strong-link incidents.
Uh, yeah... cuz we don't let you use them.
"light" weaklink issues?
"I had to land"... boo hoo.
Oh, I thought of an other one... I smashed into the earth after my weaklink let go cuz I fly as badly as I tow, and I'm only still here cuz my weaklink didn't let me pile in harder.
Your anecdotal opinion is supposed to sway me?
You forget, every tow flight you take requires a tug pilot... we see EVERY tow.
We know who the rockstars are and who the muppets are.
Do you have any idea how few of us there are?
You think we don't talk?
I'll take our opinion over yours any day of the week.
Quest Air has been involved in perfecting aerotowing for nearly twenty years.
They'd been involved in perfecting aerotowing for nearly twenty years nearly six years ago. So now they've been involved in perfecting aerotowing for nearly nearly twenty-six years. And the past four have included two fatal launch crashes of professional pilots. So they must really have all this properly sussed out now.
Nigel Hewitt - 2017/05/26 17:05:09 UTC
Brighton, Sussex, UK
I have a distinctive regional accent and people seem to think it marks me out as intelligent.
Nah, we're OK on that.
I know that they're kidding themselves. I was just born at Oxford in the UK.
Conversely, having now retired, I haven't had to do tensor mathematics for years. I don't miss compressible flows and such evils one bit. I used to be paid to think so I'm darned if I'm thinking on my own time.
The accepted standards and practices changed.
I still won't tow people with doubled up weaklinks. You don't get to "make shit up". I don't "make shit up" for that matter either.
We all play by the same rules, or we don't play.
Morningside decided that they were happy with 200lb weaklink. They changed their tug's link and they don't just pass the stuff out either. If you'd like to know more about it... go ask them.
The law of the land at comps was 130lb greenspot or you don't tow. Seriously. It was announced before the comp that this would be the policy. Some guys went and made their case to the safety committee and were shut down. So yeah, sorry... suck it up.
I think the ONLY THING the Industry shits and their loyal sycophants learned from the 2013/02/02 Zack Marzec inconvenience fatality was to keep their fuckin' mouths tightly shut in any discussions involving weak links - not to mention...
