landing

[NMERider]

....And the really important thing is to not reveal any information on what caused the crash in any public venue or any private venue in which there's any risk of it being made public.
....

Shouldn't the title of the CHGPA thread be changed to, "Preparing for the next, inevitable landing crash"?

[Tad Eareckson]

Pretty much all CHGPA threads should be titled along that line.

[<BS>]

And one titled "Who will rescue who after a XC", for determining who's having the most difficulty breeding after those too.

[Dave Gills]

The conditions at launch were 0-7 mph straight in from the West.
You could launch in a thermal if you wanted some initial airspeed.
Conditions in the LZ were nearly dead.

Most of us with our cars on top decided to bag it.

The pilot was a left coast visitor flying a S2 135-C.
I'm guessing his hook in to be about 170-180 lbs.
His harness was a High Energy Tracer and he had a full face helmet.
All of his equipment looked in good condition and skill appropriate except for the lack of wheels & radio.

He was too high when he turned final.
The LZ is small so you have to slip it in aggressively & fly very fast (my preference) or fly close to the trees and time it just right (most everybody else).
We discussed approaches at launch beforehand.

You should land on the uphill part of the LZ facing South.
The LZ is North-South and is bordered by tall trees to the west & North & high weeds and brush to the East.
There is a road and barbed wire fence to the South with power lines.

He was going to overshoot and decided to turn left (East) before cresting the LZ & flying downhill toward the cheese slicer (barbed wire fence).
This put him downhill and possibly downwind.
Wheels probably wouldn't have helped if he did have them.
He crashed near the edge of the field in the weeds.

[Steve Davy]

Any news about how the "HG pilot" is recovering?

[NMERider]

....
He was too high when he turned final.
The LZ is small so you have to slip it in aggressively & fly very fast (my preference) or fly close to the trees and time it just right (most everybody else).
We discussed approaches at launch beforehand....

I put several years of hard work into getting a stable and reliable drogue chute into production and then wrote about the experience (soon to be in print).
http://issuu.com/us_hang_gliding_paragliding/docs/hgpg1704_issuu/54

With one of these Free Flight Enterprises drogue chutes and a little practice no one has to:
1 - slip it in aggressively
2 - fly very fast
3 - fly close to the trees and
4 - time it just right

I now own a very nice T2C 144 that I bought from the spouse of a friend while he was still unconscious after he declined to use his drogue and clipped a tree top then lobbed into the ground.
Had he used his drogue, he could have made a much steeper approach and given the tree tops plenty of clearance and not risked overshooting the field.
During the same comp season another pilot also clipped a tree and spent like 6 months in rehab after she got out of surgeries.
In fact, the gentleman who provided me with the pattern for the drogue that I use lands with a drogue and on pneumatic wheels every time. Yes, the two modes are complimentary.
This is me drogue-landing what used to be my friend's glider....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIFYkchSLQA

[Dave Gills]

I put several years of hard work into getting a stable and reliable drogue chute into production...

I believe I sent you a request to be put on the list of people interested in buying one.

I'm going to be using an old WW Eagle for flying some of our tighter LZs like Templeton & High Point for the time being.

My idea for a pocket would essentially be a scaled down version of the emergency parachute pocket complete with hook pins & red handle.
One difference would be that if you continue to pull on the red handle (another 12") it operates a Link-Knife and cuts the drogue free.
I'm interested in deployment pocket options.

Also..."The Pilot" is expected to make a full recovery and should, by now, be back to work.
He told me that he got his H3 last summer and has flown many coastal sites in California prior to being transferred here.
I saw him do a sledder at Hyner the week before and he was able to do the "dropping into a slot" maneuver.

[NMERider]

I put several years of hard work into getting a stable and reliable drogue chute into production...

I believe I sent you a request to be put on the list of people interested in buying one....

I'm going to be using an old WW Eagle for flying some of our tighter LZs like Templeton & High Point for the time being.

My idea for a pocket would essentially be a scaled down version of the emergency parachute pocket complete with hook pins & red handle.
One difference would be that if you continue to pull on the red handle (another 12") it operates a Link-Knife and cuts the drogue free.
I'm interested in deployment pocket options....

Sorry about losing track. Too many modes of communication make it hard for me to track everyone.
Dustin carries the FFE drogue chute: http://www.rotorharness.com/price-list.html He lists it for $130.
The pocket that turns inside out that is available on Tenax harnesses is the easiest method.
My cocoon harness uses a simple pocket with a flap and I fold the drogue into pleats then fold in half.
If I think I may need it I pull it 1/4 way of of the pocket by the top of the fold. It's ready with the flick of a wrist.
Simple is best.
I did this instructional video of using the drogue and repacking it on a Covert harness.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2K9MgNpeoM

[Tad Eareckson]

The conditions at launch were 0-7 mph straight in from the West.
You could launch in a thermal if you wanted some initial airspeed.
Conditions in the LZ were nearly dead.

Most of us with our cars on top decided to bag it.

So sounds like a guaranteed sled.

(I've been in constant low level pain from a badly broken right foot since the evening of 1992/06/20 when I made a coin toss decision to take an evening sled from Woodstock - rather than leaving the glider set up and ready for a promising next day. Failed to notice it had just gone catabatic.)

All of his equipment looked in good condition and skill appropriate except for the lack of wheels...

But try flying without an appropriate weak link with a finished length of 1.5 inches or less or a...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2809
hook-in failures

Jim Rooney - 2007/10/31 13:31:04 UTC

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
YOU ARE ON CRACK!

I've yet to meet the pilot dumb enough or arrogant enough to fly without a backup loop. Perhaps you'll be the first then?

Thanks, I needed a laugh

...backup loop.

He was too high when he turned final.

But don't worry. He's a well established California Three and thus certified to hit fifty foot radius spots consistently. He'll be just fine.

The LZ...

Secondary - 39°54'41.50" N 077°58'33.26" W, as opposed to the primary ("Ball Diamond") 39°54'00.99" N 077°58'46.18" W. Never landed there. Primary is an iffy prospect minus sustainable ridge lift.

...is small so you have to slip it in aggressively & fly very fast (my preference) or fly close to the trees and time it just right (most everybody else).
We discussed approaches at launch beforehand.

What? You can't do both?

You should land on the uphill part of the LZ facing South.

Based upon the latter part of your account I'm gonna assume that means you should final from the North / to the South and land uphill on the North face of the hill/slope.

There is a road and barbed wire fence to the South with power lines.

Zoom in on the residential stuff just off the SouthEast corner of the field.

He was going to overshoot and decided to turn left (East) before cresting the LZ & flying downhill toward the cheese slicer (barbed wire fence).
This put him downhill...

Here I'm baffled. Google Earth shows the terrain steadily rising to the East / back towards the ridge (as one would expect).

...and possibly downwind.

Probably not significantly.

Wheels probably wouldn't have helped if he did have them.

Depends on how you define wheels. At some point as you head towards ridiculously large they'd have probably helped. Not that I'd be a fan of using ridiculously large wheels to compensate for landing approach incompetence.

He crashed near the edge of the field in the weeds.

1. And here I was thinking that we just execute our normal landing flare...

28-41704
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http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=43580
The Oz Report - Hang Gliding - Don't land in the wheat
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=33264
Don't Land In The Wheat - Knock Out

...treating the vegetation tops as the surface.

2. If only somebody had thought to put an old Frisbee in the middle of the LZ.

And I'll bet he did a hang check back at launch to make sure his bar clearance hadn't changed since last time.

Over eight days since a crash resulting in a chopper ride out to a hospital...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7286
Learning from a HG accident

Virtually nothing about not being able to safely stop a goddam intermediate level hang glider within the confines of a 900x450 foot reasonably flat target in zilch conditions.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34985
Low Turns to Final

Telepilot - 2016/12/21 15:12:22 UTC

Hi Everybody.

Yes - EVERYBODY. Everybody and Anybody worth talking to is there on The Jack Show perfectly free to present his valuable opinions on all issues worth talking about.

Here is an observation / question for the group.

Fuck the group.

Recently, I had a good friend have a pretty severe crash on landing. Watching the video...

Which you can't be bothered to post or link to.

...he appeared to have the classic (in powered aviation terms) approach turn stall. Too slow, too low with a steep turn to final stalling the wing with no altitude to recover. That sucks.

Agreed. People probably shouldn't do that.

Here's the question: As I watch all kinds of tandems going on, I see a trend that show the instructor doing a really low turn to final with the wingtip just a few feet off the ground. Now, granted, they are really pulled in with lots of speed so the stall isn't a factor.

In other words, no relevance whatsoever to the crash you just referenced.

But WHY do tandem guys do that with their students?

Students? If they were actual students wouldn't they be landing the plane? The way ACTUAL students do solo on Day One, Flight One?

Most tandems are non-pilot "ride-alongs". They are doing the tourist thing. I believe just the mere thrill of being aloft in a hang glider would be sufficient excitement!

Can you quote any relevant individual expressing a similar opinion?

Hey, I'm not a tandem instructor, I never will be.

There's no such thing as a tandem instructor.

But WHY do so many tandem guys do these super low turns to final?

1. Because they CAN.
2. So they don't get bored as shitless as fast as they do otherwise.
3. 'Cause it presents an opportunity to improve and hone skills and judgment.

Is it setting bad examples for the rest of us?

1. Are the rest of us crashing 'cause we're following those examples?

2. How 'bout THIS:

http://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5322/10132306074_13fab65d5e_o.jpg


That look like...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22176
Paragliding Collapses

Jim Rooney - 2011/06/12 13:57:58 UTC

Most common HG injury... spiral fracture of the humerus.

...a safe maneuver to you?

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Also, I am not criticizing anyone here. But just like if someone is unhooked and approaching the ramp, I'm gonna say something!

Like?:

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Why don't you tell us what something you'd be saying and letting us guess what the responses would likely be.

Wayne Ripley - 2016/12/21 15:24:34 UTC

The short answer would be yes low turn's close to the ground are not good for any winged aircraft...

Probably even worse for unwinged aircraft.

...however the 3 towing places i have been do not do this[Quest, Wallaby, New England Hang gliding] As far as I can see the pilot in charge of the tandem makes a fast,straight approach and then slow's down for the wheeled in touch down.

Thus setting their students up for disaster when they attempt to land in narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place.

Dave Hopkins - 2016/12/21 15:28:49 UTC

Low turns on final is a really bad idea. last time I did one it wasn't pretty. Not terrible but the inside wing did stall and I end up chasing the SS wing around to a whack.

Much better to stall your glider with wings level. Then it's a mere inconvenience that increases the safety of the towing operation.

If it's a pre-planned stunt for an advanced pilot in mellow condition maybe OK, but in general plan our approaches to be a straight final.

You mean like Unidentified McConnellsburg Three did shortly before getting choppered out of the secondary two Saturdays ago?

It's a fine line between stalling that inside tip and pulling it off. There are several areodynmic factors working against us.

Yeah. There's no fuckin' way you can come in with enough speed to make it a nonissue. The line is so extremely fine that these tandem rides are almost crashing left and right.

Telepilot - 2016/12/21 15:48:48 UTC

I suspect there may be a "normalization of deviance" thing going on here. Especially when I see it occurring with multiple tandem people in the same areas.

"Social normalization of deviance means that people within the organization become so much accustomed to a deviant behavior that they don't consider it as deviant, despite the fact that they far exceed their own rules for the elementary safety". As people grow more accustomed to the deviant behavior, the more it occurs. To people outside of the organization, the activities seem deviant; however, people within the organization do not recognize the deviance because it is seen as a normal occurrence."

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3728/9655895292_f4f808fb0e_o.png

06-03114

"In hindsight, after an accident, people within the organization realize that their seemingly normal behavior was deviant."

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg


Except, of course...

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...in hang gliding.

http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7447/26578855104_69f4705474_o.jpg

http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7077/27082298482_cda1aba01b_o.png

WESH2-05

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=52891
2017 Midwest, the organizers' thoughts

Davis Straub - 2017/06/17 05:10:39 UTC

I did not see any difference in how aerotow competitions are organized and run with regard to safety pre-RRRG and at the Midwest 2017. We've known how to do this for years and the same people are still doing it. Russell Brown was in charge of aerotowing at our non sanctioned meets in Florida in March and April and he was in charge at Whitewater.

Both the meet organizers at Whitewater and I as the organizer of the three meets in Florida in 2017 had meets with no injuries to pilots.