http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34985
Low Turns to Final
Jason Boehm - 2016/12/21 16:27:40 UTC
low turns (tandem or otherwise) boil down to airspeed management
No shit. Name some stuff in aviation that DOESN'T boil down to airspeed management.
with sufficient airspeed in calm conditions, they can be fun
Better get some u$hPa regulations against them in place then.
with insufficent airspeed in any conditions, they are a recipe for a crash.
Like what happens when one suddenly loses a couple hundred ponds of thrust as a standard aerotow weak link increases the safety of the towing operation?
and while i recommend a long straight final for tandems.
Got that, tandem guys? Jason recommends long straight finals. So ya bloody well better start doing them.
low fast finals in a high performance wing can be a lot of fun
Way more fun than low turns onto short finals. And you're always gonna have plenty of runway to accommodate them.
And keep up the great work on the grammar.
Telepilot - 2016/12/21 17:44:24 UTC
Jason, you make two great points.
Only two?
First, you recommend long finals for tandems.
Now you jerk Telepilot off, Jason.
With the insurance debacle we just went through in the US, I would hope we would be managing our HG intros to the public in the safest manner possible.
Yeah, high time we put an end to these low turns to final that are crashing and killing so many of our tandem rides.
Even fast, fun turns to final with the wingtip almost scraping the ground seems to push it a bit for me.
Then don't do them - asshole.
Second, yea, long fast finals are fun and so are the low turns to final with a bunch of airspeed.
How would you know?
I don't know;
Precisely.
just always makes me cringe when I see it.
If it makes you cringe it doesn't look like fun.
I just think little Jane Public would be just as blown away by a long fast final on her first tandem ride.
Fuck little Jane Public. u$hPa got its tandem exemption under the pretense of providing safer instruction programs for actual students - not for selling thrill rides to bucket listers.
Dave Pendzick - 2016/12/22 03:08:06 UTC
Have you ever seen a tandem paraglider land? Ill take the fast approach with loads of retained energy over the mushy slow approach any day of the week.
How 'bout when the idiot hang glider goes upright for yet another attempt at...
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=28835
Why I don't paraglide
Tom Emery - 2013/04/17 14:29:12 UTC
Been flying Crestline about a year now. I've seen more bent aluminum than twisted risers. Every time another hang pounds in, Steven, the resident PG master, just rolls his eyes and says something like, "And you guys think hang gliding is safer."
...perfecting his flare timing?
In all seriousness, what you are witnessing is not a dangerous "trend", these guys are expert pilots practicing well within their capabilities.
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Yes, there is a thrill factor involved, but they are not risking safety to sell a ride as you imply in your post.
Not by doing low turns onto final anyway.
Airspeed is everything. U run out of it along with altitude & ideas, you're in for one hell of a thrill factor, not the good kind...
And if you always use an appropriate weak link with a finished length of 1.5 inches or less what's the worst that could happen?
Ryan Voight - 2016/12/22 05:12:04 UTC
I am not defending the behavior-
Tell us why we should care one way or another.
...also, this might be a localized thing, as I wouldn't say I see this epidemic the places I fly / visit.
How 'bout at Highland Aerosports and US Hang Gliding, Inc.?
Tandem gliders have come a long way... but they still don't perform all that well. On one hand...
The one hand with which one can fly a locking out glider while making the easy reach to one's Industry Standard release with the other.
...this is good- it's easy to burn excess altitude by flying fast.
Which is always a major deal in the environments in which they're virtually always flown.
But on the other hand, the glide angle during an approach can be surprisingly steep- I landed with my girlfriend (now wife) short of the intended field, maybe 20 yards into the neighboring field...
As a consequence of setting up with a long straight safe final.
...which was planted with soybeans! The tandem glider we had borrowed was rigged with the full landing gear and tail wheel keel extension, so foot landing was not an option. It turned out fine, just embarassing, but...
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34243
Fatal HG crash in Tres Pinos CA 4-3-2016
Ryan Voight - 2016/04/14 20:18:19 UTC
I'm telling you it works. I have done it, A LOT. For the same reasons that weight shifting works (it's the same damn thing).
...you should be used to that sorta thing anyway.
...I was pretty concerned about doing a "wheel" landing in knee high vine-like crop.
A long straight approach is very good... unless the pilot misjudges. More so on a tandem than any other glider, there's nothing that can really be done to flatten and extend the final glide.
In other words... A long straight approach ISN'T very good.
Again I will state that I'm not condoning low turns, tandem or otherwise...
Or flying with Tad-O-Links - that don't break when they're supposed to.
...but if you must, do it with lots of airspeed!
You mean the way Telepilot specified they were in the seventh sentence of the opening post?
And remember, hang gliding is a RISK MANAGEMENT activity-
Yeah, we know that. That's why any fatality reports we produce go straight to Tim Herr to be immediately shredded.
...and I'm not talking about legal liability!
Really? What other risks are there?
Perhaps the reason(s) for low & fast turns pertain to the pilot's wanting to ensure they don't get too far away from the LZ (whether it is a rational concern or irrational fear, is a different discussion).
Is there any possibility it could be for practicing staying near and/or parking in a tight field? Or are we only allowed to practice for doing no steppers...
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19-3921
...in narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place?
Perhaps the site(s) where this is being observed favor a closer, lower, faster turn to final?
Perhaps the guys who do this shit for livings would get bored outta their skulls doing long straight finals.
There's a good chance these pilots understand the risk is what they are doing...
Which is about the same as pulling out of their driveways en route to their tandem thrill ride operations.
...and since they choose to do it anyway- there's probably a reason.
See above.
Maybe it's a risk v reward thing (it's fun)...
Why else would anybody go up in a hang glider?
...or maybe there's a greater risk that is avoided by doing it this way in this place?
Like not being able to hit a tight LZ when they need to? (See 2017/06/10 McConnellsburg.)
Why ask the forum of keyboard clickers...
Like you?
...and not the tandem pilots you see out there actually hang gliding?
Since they're the guys who best understand the nuts and bolts and...
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?
Bart Weghorst - 2011/08/28 20:29:27 UTC
Now I don't give a shit about breaking strength anymore. I really don't care what the numbers are. I just want my weaklink to break every once in a while.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=27393
Pro towing: 1 barrel release + weak link or 2 barrel release
Juan Saa - 2012/10/18 01:19:49 UTC
The normal braking force in pounds for a weak link is around 180, at least that is the regular weak link line used at most aerotow operations. By adding a second weak link to your bridal you are cutting the load on each link by half, meaning that the weak link will not break at the intended 180 pounds but it will need about 360.
If that is what you use and is what your instructor approved then I have no business on interfering, i dont know if you are using the same weak link material but there shoul be only ONE weak link on a tow bridle for it to be effective in breaking before higher loads are put into you and the glider should the glider gets to an attitude or off track so much that the safety fuse of the link is needed to break you free from the tug.
I made the same mistake on putting two weak links thinking that I was adding protection to my setup and I was corrected by two instructors on separate occacions at Quest Air and at the Florida RIdge.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec
Jim Rooney - 2013/02/11 09:13:01 UTC
Hey Deltaman.
Get fucked.
...theory of this game so well. If these fucking tandem pilots are such fonts of hang gliding wisdom then how come they can't be bothered to get all us keyboard clicking muppets and products of their operations straightened out on the critical incidents? Beneath their dignity to save a Joe Stearn a lifetime of paralysis? Suck my dick, Ryan.
George Longshore - 2016/12/22 15:36:07 UTC
Have to chime in here. I do not advocate low turns to final, regardless of airspeed.
Stating that they are safer with more airspeed is asking to slip out less experienced pilot friends into the ground.
Really?
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22176
Paragliding Collapses
Jim Rooney - 2011/06/12 13:57:58 UTC
Most common HG injury... spiral fracture of the humerus.
Are we seeing this actually happening?
Starting a turn low and holding the bar in so as to maintain that extra speed is a sure way to induce a slip with no room to recover it.
What the fuck does that have to do with anything? The people who do this know how to fly and turn hang gliders.
This is different from stalling a tip and spinning in, and usually impacts at a much higher speed than a stalled wing.
Can you show us a video so we can get a good look at what's going on?
The only safe advice we can give to our friends and fellow pilots is to plan your approach to not need to make low turns to final.
Any thoughts on what advice we should've given to Jeff Bohl in the Risk Mitigation Meeting on the morning of 2016/05/21?
Being very adept at coordinating high speed turns take years of practice...
Bull fucking shit.
...and those years also develope decision making processes that keep most of my friends and myself alive.
And you never seem to be around when we're discussing the actual dead and mangled ones.
Deciding that setting up a safe approach with plenty room for margin and altitude for recovery should you need it is in my book WAY more impressive and awe inspiring than shaving the weeds on a swarping high speed downwind screamer into a quick 180 to get into the wind.
1. Fuck your book.
2. Nobody's talking about or doing that.
3. Not all landing options have plenty of room for margin and people have died 'cause they've sucked at exploiting situations with narrower margins. On 2015/10/11 Jesse Fulkersin bought it at Hyner, the details have been kept secret ever since, and there was a lot of talk about the LZ...
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...being unacceptably narrow. Yet no modifications were made, advisories were issued, training programs were implemented and regular fly-ins have continued undoubtedly with no shortage of Two level participants.
Jason Boehm - 2016/12/22 16:11:25 UTC
Everyone's idea of what's safe are different
1. Got some data to support that statement?
2. Which is another way of saying this sport is massively incompetent.
Gliders don't just slip out of the sky
No, but George has so much fun describing nonexistent scenarios.
Dave Pendzick - 2016/12/22 16:40:27 UTC
If someone can't coordinate their turns properly then they probably should not be flying hang gliders to begin with.
But they all have ratings from instructors devoting most of their efforts to teaching them not to turn their gliders.
One can execute a diving high speed approach without turning so low they risk dragging a wingtip. Airspeed should be maintained throughout the entire landing pattern with enough energy to fly into ground effect. I can't stand watching people fly at trim speed doing the figure eight turns before being low enough to turn into final only to stall & whack when they transition their hands because they failed to maintain airspeed.
1. As they were all taught.
Any comment on:
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2. The real world stuff that crashes gliders left and right:
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27086
Steve Pearson on landings
Steve Pearson - 2012/03/28 23:26:05 UTC
I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21088
What you wish you'd known then?
Doug Doerfler - 2011/03/02 05:24:44 UTC
Nothing creates carnage like declaring a spot landing contest.
Fast is safe. This problem becomes serious when people step up in performance before they are ready. I have seen it.
The problem is that US and Canadian hang gliding instruction totally sucks.
Joe Stearn (Bouyo) - 2016/12/22 18:05:10 UTC
George, I just broke my back badly and cut up my mouth by making a low, fast, slipping 180 turn onto final.
But hitting the ground wasn't a factor?
I'm lucky to not be paralyzed. I suspect this topic might be about my accident actually.
In which case you'd likely have the aforementioned video.
I now agree fervently with you about low turns on final being dangerous, regardless of airspeed.
If I can't pull one of these approaches off safely then NOBODY CAN.
The margins for error are so small in a turn like that.
Who said anything about a slipping turn?
Brian Scharp - 2016/12/22 19:10:41 UTC
Joe Stearn - 2016/12/22 18:05:10 UTC
George, I just broke my back badly and cut up my mouth by making a low, fast, slipping 180 turn onto final. I'm lucky to not be paralyzed. I suspect this topic might be about my accident actually.
Maybe, but the descriptions are different.
Telepilot - 2016/12/21 15:12:22 UTC
Watching the video, he appeared to have the classic (in powered aviation terms) approach turn stall. Too slow, too low with a steep turn to final stalling the wing with no altitude to recover.
Telepilot - 2016/12/22 22:08:44 UTC
My original post addressed a trend I have seen developing at a couple different sites where Tandems are regularly flown. The pilots are skilled, sure, or they wouldn't be tandem pilots but I've also witnessed three highly skilled aviators F it up and crash in front of huge airshow crowds. They all had plenty of airspeed too...right up until they hit the ground.
Bottom line, I believe, George nails it. Low, steep turns are a bad idea regardless of airspeed.
Superior pilots use superior judgement to avoid having to use their superior skills.
1. There's a difference between HAVING and ELECTING to use superior skills - asshole. And if you don't push your limits until they get close to the limitations of your aircraft you don't ever develop superior skills.
I treat all my landings at my Happy Acres putting green as if my life is dependent upon putting it down on a postage stamp. Then when I go XC I make every effort to stay in range of Happy Acres putting greens. But sometimes shit happens and shit can include problems with superior judgment. Then it's nice to be able to bring superior skills to bear. And you NEVER develop superior skills by ALWAYS doing long straight safe finals.
And while we're on the subject... 95 percent of u$hPa's instructional machinery is dedicated to the proposition that the judgment of one hundred percent of its pilots will at some point be so shitty that they will one day find their lives totally dependent upon executing a perfectly timed no-stepper flare at a precise spot in a narrow dry riverbed with large rocks strewn all over the place. And it doesn't give a flying fuck how many people it crashes, mangles, kills training for that totally bogus solution for that totally bogus scenario.
2. And you're not gonna bother telling us whether or not this was Joe's 2016/11/13 at Brace Mountain. My bet is it almost certainly has to be and you're pretending to be deaf rather than having to admit that you totally misrepresented the issues precipitating your good friend's pretty severe crash on landing. (Nice catch, Brian.)
