landing

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34985
Low Turns to Final

Telepilot - 2016/12/30 15:57:11 UTC

It's funny. We see all kinds of videos like this but we rarely see the crash videos.

Go figure. Reminds me of all the crash videos we don't see from Torrey related to the kinds of extremely dangerous practices in which Brad Geary and Max Marien engaged with their child passengers. And with that being such a public and visible venue you'd think there'd be countless scores.

And we CERTAINLY wouldn't wanna do shit about any of the issues behind any of the crash videos of which we have actual countless scores.

That video made me cringe, btw.

1. Good thing he didn't wind it up tight enough to get it comfortably within the RLF requirements. You'd have probably peed yourself.

2. And you were totally OK with the videos this stupid Aussie Methodist motherfucker posted of his flight two summers later five miles to the NorthEast up the Colville River Valley in which he missed launching unhooked off of THIS:

42-B20118
http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8730/28924928706_e3b352cc4b_o.png


by one unlikely and extremely lucky...

03-A01714
http://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7590/28852422592_99592ce259_o.png


...break.

He was solo, but I've seen similar videos of tandem landings.

You mean where they fly level for well over a football field of length after rolling out onto final? Only by the Grace of God have we not had any fatalities. Or maybe we have and Tim Herr has shredded the reports. Hard to say for sure.

(I'm not going to post someone else's...

Joe Stearn's.

...video here but I wish those who have a crash video might consider posting it.)

Un fucking believable that THIS:

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34930
Injured pilot needs help

Joe Stearn - 2017/01/12 17:34:18 UTC

Basically I picked a spot near the edge of a large field (rather than using the extent of the field), misjudged the start of my downwind for the spot I was aiming at (I was too low) but didn't accept that fact and make necessary corrections (i.e. land ahead of my chosen spot). Consequently I found myself making a near 180 degree turn low to the ground and didn't have enough height to complete it.

is being considered the slightest bit relevant to bored-out-of-their-minds experienced professional tandem drivers flawlessly pulling off their intended hot approaches fifteen times a day all season long, season after season, without the slightest evidence of any problems of any description.

Ryan Voight - 2016/12/30 16:04:56 UTC

Michael Grisham - 2016/12/28 23:06:50 UTC

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GI69FfKjFWg

This guy solicited nominations for Instructor of the Year from anyone and everyone he's ever dealt with... he had a LOT of submissions... almost was our 2017 USHPA Instructor of the Year.

Right Ryan. Give everybody the impression that these awards are the result of some kind of democratic process based on a consensus of responsible evaluation.

The United States Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association, Inc. - 2015/03/14
03. Executive Committee
07. Membership and Communication
17. Awards
06. Criteria
-J. Instructor of the Year

01. The Instructor of the Year Hang Gliding Award and the Instructor of the Year Paragliding

Award recognize the importance of our certified hang gliding and paragliding Instructors in promoting safe flying practices and contributing to the positive image and growth of our sport. Innovative approaches that the instructor uses to enhance safety or teaching will be a significant part of the evaluation.

02. Criteria

-a. Nominations should include letters of support from at least three students.

-b. Considerations will include effectiveness as a teacher, being a safety role-model, and other factors that the nominating parties deem worthy of recognition.

-c. One award per sport per year may be given.

-d. Awards Chair will solicit evaluations from Directors and Administrators in the
candidate's region.

For the benefit of those of you less fluent in u$hPa-Speak... ONE appointed u$hPa/Industry Insider selects/ignores whomever the fuck he feels like.

In his defense however- he has come a long way over the years...

The way Kelly Harrison did before that one momentary and unfortunate lapse with respect to several minor risk management issues.

...and who he is, today, is not the same guy he was once.

Yes, I too was horrified thinking about the consequences of something going wrong with what he was doing.

Maturity develops over time, ya know? True for all of us...

'Specially after we learn how to roll control a glider no hands on the ground through weight shift alone by running towards the high wing. Whenever I see videos of people doing that my admiration swells beyond all bounds.

Red Howard - 2016/12/29 01:16:35 UTC

Hey, enough of this, already. You need to share your wisdom and expertise on how to learn to do dangerous stuff safely. I'm sure that I am not the only one waiting to learn what you can teach us. What do you recommend?

Glad you asked! (even if you weren't asking me LOL!)
In a nutshell, it's all risk management and progression.

Right. That always works well to save us from going into the safety business.

Elaborating- so you want to do something risky... but you want to learn to do it as safely as it can reasonably be done, right?

Wrong. There's a difference between being competent at and doing something demanding of experience, skill, judgment - like dune flying, XC over injun country, aerobatics - and taking risks - like skipping a hook-in check because you just did hang check before getting on the ramp.

Well... what is "risky"?

See above.

Risk = How likely is it go go bad + How bad is it if it goes bad.

I'm OK to fly this bent pin pro toad release because Davis has never had a problem with his (hundreds of tows) and Davis Link because Davis is happy to have a relatively weak weaklink and has never had a serious problem with the Greenspot 130, just an inconvenience now and then. Plus that equipment has an astoundingly long track record.

It's important to recognize those two elements seperately.

Ever consider learning to:
- spell?
- run spellchecks on your material before posting it?
Just kidding.

To create a proper learning environment... one where mistakes can be made (and not just survived, but learned from)...

Like when we learn how to recover from a standard aerotow weak link induced increase in the safety of the towing operation - tandem, in smooth air, at two thousand feet, with the glider tracking straight and level in the center of the Cone of Safety.

...that probably means addressing the "how bad is it if it goes wrong" side of the equation.

PROBABLY. But certainly not when nothing bad - beyond a minor inconvenience - is possible.

Learning and practicing is the biggest way we alter the "how likely is it to go bad" side... so when you're just learning something new, not much you can do there... more on that in a second though.

Minimizing how bad the outcome will be if (when?) things go wrong, is how we all hopefully learned to hang glide in the first place. Forgiving equipment...

Exceptionally easily reachable releases, the safest possible weak links...

...forgiving conditions, small hill and low altitude, slow airspeeds.

Really hard to go wrong with low and slow in aviation.

Never quite having enough rope to hang ourselves...

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/08/01 13:47:23 UTC

Whatever's going on back there, I can fix it by giving you the rope.

...until our skill (how likely is it to go bad) was built up.

Have you ever actually taught anybody any skills, Ryan? Can you show me an example from:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvhzoVC1UqM

The other part- how likely is it to go bad- can be managed during the learning process by following a progression. If you want to learn to loop your hang glider, for example, there's a super long list of incrimental baby steps that can be followed, before even getting any kind of inverted.

Great example, Ryan. If only we could properly deal with the epidemic of fatalities we're getting from people trying to advance too rapidly into aerobatics.

If you want to learn to land down-wind-up-hill, you don't fly straight at your favorite launch slope when it's blowing in strong enough that it's ridge soarable. Maybe you land uphill, but still into the wind first... learn and feel how the roundout is slightly different, and how the ground skim is shortened, with the flare window opening and closing sooner. Then maybe do it in no wind. Then maybe do a steeper slope. Eventually, progressively working up to whatever your end goal may be.

Another terrific example. But how 'bout a Joe Stearn half killing himself in smooth air at the Brace Mountain Happy Acres putting green because he compromised his approach in order to nail an imaginary old Frisbee in an imaginary center of the Brace Mountain Happy Acres putting green?

Manage- and mitigate- the risk of learning the thing... find ways you can practice and repeat, which will reduce your risk of doing whatever it is you are driven to do. Make a plan, break it down into individual elements, identify stepping stones to work up to it. Isolate the skill set needed, and find ways to build and sharpen these skills, one at a time, before entering a situation where you'll need to execute several complex skills in succession (or worse, simultaneously).

How I wish participants in this sport understood that. Just think of all the lives that could be saved.

Learning, itself, isn't actually all that hard... even learning hard stuff... but combining being analytical and creative and formulating your own curriculum and training program... that's where people struggle. It's intimidating, to try to sit down and wrap your mind around how to go about it... people often seem to find it mentally easier to just "go for it" and learn by doing

Cite some relevant examples from the sport. Cite ONE. How is this the least bit relevant to the Jesse Fulkersin, Karen Carra, Tomas Banevicius, Nancy Tachibana, Jeff Bohl, Larry Heidler stuff we're actually seeing?

It is probably easier on the brain... but for sure it can be harder on the body, the community, and unfortunately often it ends of being harder on the loved ones...

If only we had more Ryan Voights out there guiding us all through our perpetual student journeys.

Stoubie - 2016/12/29 17:15:29 UTC

They do it because it is fun and that is the point of the sport, to do it because its fun.

NMERider - 2016/12/29 18:31:55 UTC

I have had enough acquaintances whose idea of fun was tantamount to playing Russian Roulette.

So much irony it hurts my head...

And so stunningly little relevance.

And AIRTHUG's current tagline:

Shut up and fly.

Speaking of irony.

By the way Ryan... If you're such a great and prolific teacher how come none of your products are teaming up with you in stressing the importance of these issues or beating you to the draw?

[NMERider]

....If only we had more Ryan Voights out there guiding us all through our perpetual student journeys....

My guess is that we'd have even more dead and crippled student pilots than we already do.

[Tad Eareckson]

Ryan's the consummate u$hPa operative. And u$hPa's Primary Directive is that there's absolutely nothing wrong with anything that's being done on any substantial scale. And the one and only time in its entire history that it deviated from that model / admitted otherwise is documented in the 1983/05 magazine edition with Gil Dodgen's editorial on the primary issue of moving the lower tow bridle attachment from the bottom of the control frame to the pilot.

And that was after the Board summarily censored the relevant series of articles.

- NOBODY on the entire Board with enough brains to ACTUALLY READ what Donnell was saying and determine whether or not it had any merit.

- Also decided none of the individuals within the membership should be permitted to read what Donnell was saying and determine whether or not it had any merit.

And then everybody abruptly bought into his every punctuation mark hook, line, and sinker - ninety percent of it was pure unadulterated lunacy - and we've been living and dying with the consequences mostly unabated ever since.

My guess is that we'd have even more dead and crippled student pilots than we already do.

And since we're all "always students" the same applies to all the thirty year guys as well.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29984
What happened to the org?

Mike Lake - 2013/09/26 18:59:57 UTC

On the other hand there are plenty of people who fly lots but still manage to spew out the most incredible and dangerous garbage to others.

This includes some of the "professionals" people who work in the industry and are therefore able to regard themselves as such.
They really believe they have a monopoly on knowledge and when finding themselves on the losing side of a debate resort to the old standby "This is what we do so fuck off you weekender".

I say good riddance to those nauseating, know it all, self indulgent "professionals" who have banished themselves from this site.

We fuckin' permanently FINISHED Rooney. We'll never be able to do the same to Ryan 'cause he:
- is a hundred times more intelligent, articulate, politically astute
- actually flies hang gliders - really well - and proves it with beautiful professionally produced videos

But we have to keep hammering him and not permit him to slime his way out of the corners into which he's perpetually painting himself.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34985
Low Turns to Final

Ryan Voight - 2016/12/30 16:28:53 UTC

Just realized I failed to bring the above "how do we learn to do something risky, safely" discussion back around to the topic at hand- LOW TURNS TO FINAL.

A bit odd that nobody's ever raised this issue in a topic, dontchya think Ryan? Seems to be enough of an epidemic to get Telepilot all bent outta shape, no videos or reports of crashes, incidents... Nobody's even brought it up in this thread - which seems to be all about how to get the people who are doing it safely all the fuckin' time to stop doing it. But now you're gonna lecture on how to learn to do something risky safely. Aren't we all so happy we tuned in.

The short and sweet of it: The risk of one pilot doing it is not equal to the risk of another pilot doing it. The discussion of conditions was a good point, and there are so many teeny nuances in things like this, they can easily be overlooked by the less informed.

Got any videos of the less informed doing any Low Turns to Final?

Can low-turns-to-final be done with a relatively high margin of safety. I'd say yes... but how that gets done is super complex...

Bull fucking shit. Virtually NOTHING we do with these wings is super complex. If it were there wouldn't be enough people in this sport with enough in the way of brains to handle it and thus we wouldn't see anybody doing it. My bet is that the most complex thing we do with these wings is work light choppy thermal lift. And that's just a matter of learning to feel what's going on with the glider, react appropriately, visualize the big picture. And most people who fly and work at it tend to get pretty good at it pretty quickly. Hot tight approaches are totally brain dead stuff in comparison.

how fast, how low, how much bank, what angle is it approached from, how sharp or smooth is the roll in and roll out of that turn... the list goes on and on...

1. Right Ryan. People are always executing these with such paper thin safety margins that all these issues are super critical. It's not like they just come around with tons of speed to essentially unlimited runways and make adjustments if needed / as they feel like.

2. Any comment on Wonderboy's? The consensus is very obviously that he was cheating death doing his Low Turn to Final while his near unhooked launch at a near cliff face needed no remedial action whatsoever.

It's very difficult for one pilot to look at another pilot and discern whether their choices were "too risky" or not.

1. Sounds like you really nailed the fundamental problem with u$hPa's Pilot Proficiency System. It's not like in real aviation in which pilots can be reliably, safely certified, licensed for various levels of proficiency involving various aircraft operating in various environments.

2. Bull fucking shit, Ryan. Actual PILOTS have no problem whatsoever assessing what's risky and what ain't. This anonymous "Telepilot" idiot isn't a PILOT. He's a u$hPa product. Your average jerk in seat 37E has a pretty good feel for when everything's fine and when he should start getting a bit nervous. Same with these bucket listers. There have been ZERO documented complaints, they've got really excellent perspectives on what's going (under the wing and in the airflow), and they're not ALL totally fucking clueless.

First, acceptable risk (risk v reward) is different for everyone.

Bull fucking shit. If that were true we'd see tons of serious incidents related to hot-dogging. And virtually all of them are related to incompetence. Eric Mies was an outlier, that was known by the local community, and when he finally bought it no one was the least bit surprised.

Second, there are all these tiny nuances and strategic decisions that can not be seen.

Bullshit. Post a video illustrating that rot.

And third, you can not see what skill building and progressive learning went into the thing they are doing.

The general public looks at us hang glider pilots and most say we are crazy because it's too dangerous.

Yep, undeniable established fact. Most of the time when I talk to new contacts about the sport of hang gliding they tell me I was just plain nuts to have pursued it. And those people are absolutely astounded that I'm still around to talk about it.

But we know, it's a controlled activity.

KSNV-CNN-1-1916-c
http://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5788/23461251751_e98b9c7500_o.png


http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8697/16463566373_3f21d65f25_o.png
KTNV13-5626

We don't feel like we're gambling with our lives doing this, right?

Who gives a flying fuck about what "we" "FEEL" like"?

Within hang gliding, pilots look at other pilots and say THEY'RE crazy because that thing they just did is "too dangerous".

And tell me what they think about the instructors who signed them off?

But just as the public's perception of the risk in recreational hang gliding is askew from what we actually expose ourselves to when we go flying... the perception we each have of the risk (how likely + how bad) of an activity for ourselves does not directly apply to eachother... and it can be very hard to step back and accept that sometimes.

Is Aaron Swepston safer looping than Jonathan Dyetch?

Who gives a rat's ass? Jonathan doesn't loop.

But looping is risky!

Do we have any actual data to...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=22176
Paragliding Collapses

Jim Rooney - 2011/06/12 13:57:58 UTC

Most common HG injury... spiral fracture of the humerus.

...support that statement? Do we consider RLF landings risky because Tev Carrillos decides to come in on final fifty feet too high?

If it goes wrong, hell yes it's REALLY bad...

Loops don't go wrong. The individuals attempting to execute them do And NOBODY ever has the slightest problem identifying the relevant issue.

...but the likelihood of it going wrong when Aaron does it is probably lower than the likelihood of Jono's landing going wrong any time he goes XC...

ANY landing should be more dangerous than ANY loop - given requisite levels of competence. Anybody contemplating a loop has the option of not doing it. A landing, on the other hand, is mandatory for every flight, some kind of potentially deadly surface is always involved, and, on a glider, there's most often a rather narrow time window not of the pilot's choosing during which the landing WILL occur.

...but does that offset the "how bad would be be" side of the equation, where Jono only occasionally hurts himself when his landings go bad, where as a failed loop is much more likely to result in injury? Dunno... and that's kind of the point.

Who gives a flying fuck? Jonathan's hooked on a flavor of flying conducted in a particular landing hostile environment.
- Nobody NEEDS to do what he's doing.
- Pretty much nobody else DOES what he's doing.
- He:
-- discourages people from doing what he's doing
-- doesn't write or implement policy forcing others to train and equip for doing what he's doing

It's up to Aaron and Jono to decide for themselves... but as a "self regulated" community it's also up to us to help coax good judgement out of them.

To whom was it up to coax Rafi Lavin to implement the preflight procedure which WOULD - no question whatsoever - have prevented him from getting so much as scratched at Funston on 2015/08/23?

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=33308
Funston Accident
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=33322
Broken side wire . . .

Go through those two threads and find a comment from Ryan. Motherfucker's NEVER around whenever we're trying to deal with and ACTUAL FIXABLE issue. What we're seeing here - I finally see with desert atmosphere clarity - is just distraction, diversion, disruption. Like we see with Bob 'cept in a much different package.

Should or shouldn't these tandem pilots be doing the low turns mentioned in the original post? How can a bunch of keyboard pounders comment either way?!?!

Suck my dick, Ryan. If it weren't for keyboard pounders we'd all still be living in caves and leaving flying entirely to the birds. Dumb air jocks we can live without pretty easily. Science, math, history... not so much.

Would those pilots be SAFER if they didn't... probably! But they'd be safer still if they didn't fly... and we seem pretty accepting of their choice to do that, aren't we?!

And you u$hPa Establishment shit motherfuckers were EXRTEMELY accepting of your choice to effectively end my flying career. (Guess y'all didn't do much of a cost/benefit analysis of what that could translate to in the long run, did ya?)

In closing-

I'll say this- if you see someone doing something, and you are concerned about their safety... rather than try to stop them, ask yourself if there is a way you can HELP them.

I've been doing that for many years. But unfortunately all my worthwhile strategies necessitate a first step of shooting a few of you motherfuckers in the backs of your heads.

Assuming they're not just oblivious to the increased risk of doing whatever they're doing, it's clear they WANT to be doing this thing. So if they want to, and are already doing it, how can you help them at least do it with less risk?

Oh good. We're now gonna have Telepilot explaining to these tandem drivers just how dangerous their Low Turns to Final are and how to execute the base to final transition with much wider safety margins.

IE for like 10 years I've tried to help Jono improve his landings, or his risk management choices when going XC...

1. Any chance you can post a few of your own LA Basin XC videos so the rest of us can learn how to get our landings right?

2. Golly. Just think what it would probably be like if you HADN'T been one of u$hPa's Instructor of the Year award winners. You might have tried to help Jono improve his landings for twenty or thirty years.

3. Do you insist on referring to ALL your students using names to which they've specifically stated they object?

4. If you suck this much teaching Hang 4.9 students Hang 1-2 basic skills how much success do you have with the just off the street types?

5. Any thoughts on:

- the bangs for the bucks we'd get with efforts into teaching everyone...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=12682
Landing on your feet (for AEROTOW)- So Dangerous

Jack Axaopoulos - 2009/06/29 14:26:26 UTC

OMG!!! You dont even have wheels!!?!?!?!?
YOURE GONNA DIE FOR SUUUUREE!!!!

I have a brilliant idea. People who cant land for sh*t.... LEARN TO LAND That way when a weak link breaks on you, ITS A NON-ISSUE. Genius huh???

...versus putting them up on appropriate weak links with finished length of 1.5 inches or less that DON'T routinely increase the safety of the towing operation just as people are coming off the cart?

- whether the issue is really people being unable to learn to land or...

Gil Dodgen - 1995/01

All of this reminds me of a comment Mike Meier made when he was learning to fly sailplanes. He mentioned how easy it was to land a sailplane (with spoilers for glide-path control and wheels), and then said, "If other aircraft were as difficult to land as hang gliders no one would fly them."

...something fundamentally wrong with what we're defining as a landing?

6. Mike Bomstad landing at the end of a long XC:

40-51604
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2896/14747340071_e87416a1d1_o.png

41-51624
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42-51700
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Is that how you, your dad, Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney, Mitch Shipley teach people how to land in your morning and evening clinics on at your primary Happy Acres putting greens?

7. A bit odd that you're putting so much time, energy, effort into Jonathan's landings but absolute zilch into getting these tandem drivers doing all these potentially lethal Low Turns to Final onto the right track. (Gotchya Ryan.)

And Aaron (among many others) have helped me pursue looping in as safe a way as is reasonably achievable...

Finally we get to an area of hang gliding in which Ryan DOES have some background. And all that's involved is getting way the fuck up in glassy smooth ridge lift, staying level, and smoothly running pitch control through the extremes as airspeed is required and allowed.

Michael Grisham - 2016/12/30 16:53:56 UTC

LOL You are so awesome Ryan.
I really hate it when I fall out of my yoga pose.
Every time I do Warrior Three, I feel like I am taking off in my hang glider.
I haven't left the ground without my glider yet.

Guess you treat and preflight the harness as part of the aircraft... end of story.

NMERider - 2016/12/30 17:54:40 UTC

Ryan Voight - 2016/12/30 16:04:56 UTC

So much irony it hurts my head...

http://www.willswing.com/aerobatics-in-hang-gliders-understanding-operating-limitations/

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=17038
CSS Regional Hang Glider Aerobatics Competition - June 5th

2mm side wires





No shortage of irony.

[NMERider]

....Ryan's the consummate u$hPa operative. And u$hPa's Primary Directive is that there's absolutely nothing wrong with anything that's being done on any substantial scale. And the one and only time in its entire history that it deviated from that model / admitted otherwise is documented in the 1983/05 magazine edition with Gil Dodgen's editorial on the primary issue of moving the lower tow bridle attachment from the bottom of the control frame to the pilot.

And that was after the Board summarily censored the relevant series of articles.

- NOBODY on the entire Board with enough brains to ACTUALLY READ what Donnell was saying and determine whether or not it had any merit.

- Also decided none of the individuals within the membership should be permitted to read what Donnell was saying and determine whether or not it had any merit.

And then everybody abruptly bought into his every punctuation mark hook, line, and sinker - ninety percent of it was pure unadulterated lunacy - and we've been living and dying with the consequences mostly unabated ever since.

My guess is that we'd have even more dead and crippled student pilots than we already do.

And since we're all "always students" the same applies to all the thirty year guys as well.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=29984
What happened to the org?

Mike Lake - 2013/09/26 18:59:57 UTC

On the other hand there are plenty of people who fly lots but still manage to spew out the most incredible and dangerous garbage to others.

This includes some of the "professionals" people who work in the industry and are therefore able to regard themselves as such.
They really believe they have a monopoly on knowledge and when finding themselves on the losing side of a debate resort to the old standby "This is what we do so fuck off you weekender".

I say good riddance to those nauseating, know it all, self indulgent "professionals" who have banished themselves from this site.

We fuckin' permanently FINISHED Rooney. We'll never be able to do the same to Ryan 'cause he:
- is a hundred times more intelligent, articulate, politically astute
- actually flies hang gliders - really well - and proves it with beautiful professionally produced videos

But we have to keep hammering him and not permit him to slime his way out of the corners into which he's perpetually painting himself.

Thanks to the liability waiver it's open season for anyone to spew out his or her 'expert' knowledge to any willing or unwitting participant who may then wind up crippled or dead as a direct or indirect consequence.
The spewer of 'expert' knowledge is thus indemnified against liability for the resulting death or injury.
The doctrine of assumption of risk further indemnifies the self-appointed 'experts' from liability as well.
The sad result is that in far too many ways, this sport remains what many of us refer to as a 'Hippie sport'.
In spite of there being a reservoir of accident and safety data, that data is off-limits due to the liability risk availability to plaintiff attorneys.
And so we have people who are free to pretend to know and declare it as true and factual then pass it off as 'expert' knowledge.
This isn't unique to hang gliding. Take a look at medicine and the damage caused by the medical malpractice caps in California.
The med-mal caps give doctors license to kill and cripple yet be so minimally liable no attorney will take the case.

[Tad Eareckson]

A decade ago I was operating under the assumption that things would inevitably follow the Darwin model. After all, look what was going on with gliders, harnesses, instruments, parachutes. Never dawned on me that it was entirely possible for major aspects to evolve backwards - and for those major aspects to drag just about everything back down with them.

Back in the Eighties I don't think anybody could have conceived of the Tim Herr model under which everything operates now.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34985
Low Turns to Final

NMERider - 2016/12/30 19:00:51 UTC

The only loops I have ever done were as a passenger in a Bellanca Citabria which is certified for aerobatics by the FAA.

I have neither the desire nor the intention of performing loops in a hang glider. As far as landing out when flying X/C goes, I'd suggest that X/C out-landings have resulted in more injuries and fatalities than aerobatics over the past 8 years I have been flying.

And let's not forget about primary Happy Acres putting greens:
- 2014/09/29 - Joe Julik
- 2015/10/11 - Jesse Fulkersin

And just a bit before that time window:
- 2007/06/24 - Mike Onorato
- 2008/04/29 - Jeff Craig
- 2008/06/21 - Richard Seymour

The rate of serious X/C landing crashes is considerably higher than what is reported or generally known.

Undoubtedly true of most non fatal crashes. (The fatals are a lot harder to keep out of the mainstream (and thus hang gliding) news.)

My landings have always needed improvement and always will need improvement.

Translation:

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2095
Should we try a different way? Designwise....

Steve Corbin - 2015/09/02 22:26:04 UTC

Any un-biased observer should be able to see why wanna-be pilots find PG more attractive than HG. Standing around in the Andy Jackson Memorial International Airpark at a busy fly-in shows that a PG landing is a total non-event, while everyone stands up to watch HG's, piloted by "experts", come in to land. A good landing by a HG is greeted by cheers, an acknowledgement that landing one successfully is a demonstration not just of skill, but good luck as well.

You need to work on getting luckier a higher percentage of the time.

But I don't let this stop me from flying more new and unexplored routes can I can recall. The worst injury I recall from landing out was an ankle fracture. It was due to a combination of many factors, all of which were my own responsibility and no one else's. Yet, there was no risk of a third-party liability claim against our insurance when this event took place.

Also note that the 2015/03/27 twofer child murder didn't cost any "responsible" party or his estate a nickel's worth of settlement or a parking ticket worth of legal consequences. But it wasn't long after that that Lloyds of London told u$hPa to permanently go fuck itself.

During the 2016 U.S. comp season there were at least two very serious X/C out-landing accidents that required extended hospitalizations. One of the pilots is flying again...

2016/05/10 - Yoko Isomoto

...and the other seems less likely to ever return.

Can't find / Don't recall that one. Another Quest origin though.

In both of these cases there was little or no threat of third-party liability.

In at least ONE of those cases the crash didn't have shit to do with any XC factor and if she HAD previously amused herself with dangerous Low Turns to Final there's no way in hell she'd have botched that brain dead easy approach - à la Linda Salamone.

In the case of tandem pilots doing aerobatics or low turns to final with their passengers there is a very serious risk to our self-insurance funds.

Really? With ZERO evidence of ANY relevant incident?

If our RRRG gets depleted then our site accesses that require liability insurance may come to an end. The impact on U.S. and foreign manufacturers will be significant.

We already have significant impact on U.S. and foreign manufacturers. We have tons of customer base killed, injured, traumatized out of the sport who aren't buying gliders anymore. And Highland Aerosports hasn't generated any new customers since the 2015 season.

U.S. pilots will only be able to fly places where insurance isn't needed. This means closure of most commercial operations in the U.S. as well as the loss of much of our flying privileges.

Don't remember many people getting too bent outta shape when my flying privileges abruptly became effectively nonexistent.

Does anyone here recall the following scene and what its significance was to our sport?

KSNV-CNN-1-1916-c
http://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5788/23461251751_e98b9c7500_o.png

1. Yeah, I think I remember covering it in a lot more detail than the hang gliding establishment wanted.

2. And THAT'S the area we SHOULD be looking at if we're REALLY concerned about liability. 'Cause it's a no fuckin' brainer that all these tandem flights ending with Low Turns to Final are beginning with aerotow launches. And while even the most dangerous tandem aerotow launch is ten times safer than the safest tandem mountain foot launch ALL tandem aerotow launches are conducted with:
- incompetent PICs at both ends
- illegal shit equipment
- in flagrant violation of just about any relevant FAA regulation or u$hPa requirement you wanna name

And these are not hypothetical threats. I can name you the dead students:
- 1996/07/25 - Mike Del Signore
- 1998/10/25 - Frank Spears, Jr.
- 2002/08/17 - Victor Douglas Cox
- 2005/09/03 - Jeremiah Kaiwiki Thompson

And in none of those did the instructor survive either.

And we can throw in another one in which the instructor bought it instantly while the student got off with a concussion:
- 1999/02/27 - Rob Richardson / unnamed female victim

And tell me ONE positive measure ACTUALLY IMPLEMENTED in response to ANY of them.

And I don't know how much better you could've proved my point by using this incident which was 100.00 percent tow launch as an illustration in a thread about allegedly dangerous landings - in which ZERO evidence of deliberate dangerous landings is ever presented.

Here's what I suggest to any and all concerned pilots: If you witness a USHPA-insured tandem pilot placing a passenger or anyone else at needless risk of injury or death, please report it to your RDs.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/7067
AT SOPs - proposed revisions

Subj: Re: [Tow] AT SOPs - proposed revisions
Date: 2009/05/10 02:08:52 UTC
From: cloud9sa@aol.com
To: skysailingtowing@yahoogroups.com
cc: GreggLudwig@aol.com, lisa@lisatateglass.com

Hi Tad.

I'm Tracy Tillman, on the USHPA BOD, on the Tow Committe, and I am an Aviation Safety Counselor on the FAA Safety Team (FAAST) for the Detroit FSDO area. As a rep of both the USHPA and FAA, I would like to help you, USHPA, and the FAA improve safety in flying, towing, and hang gliding.

The FAA gets a lot of letters of complaint from a lot of yahoos. For best effect, I suggest that you describe in your letter (and also post to the skysailingtowing group and share with the USHPA Tow Committee) your areas of expertise (if any) related to this issue, and list your qualifiications, logged hours, and currency in certain categories, such as:

1. hang glider pilot rating and logged hours
2. hang glider aerotow rating, logged hours, and logged number of tows
3. hang glider tug pilot rating, logged hours towing, and logged number of tows
4. hang glider aerotow administrator appointment date
5. hang glider aerotow supervisor appointment date
6. hang glider tanderm instructor rating, logged hours of aerotow tandem instruction, and logged number of instructional flights
7. airplane pilot license ratings and logged number of hours
8. airplane tow pilot endorsement date, logged number of hours towing with airplane, logged number of tows
9. sailplane tow pilot license ratings, logged number of hours, logged number of tows.
10. sailplane instructor license date, logged number of hours of instruction, logged number of instructional tows
11. any other flying or engineering-related credentials that you may have as evidence of your competence to make these claims.

(BTW, if you have an AT hang glider rating or above the you would/should have received the USHPA Aerotow Guidelines as part of your instruction from the person who taught you to aerotow and/or gave you your AT rating, and you should currently have access to them via the packet that is accessible to you on the USHPA web site, if your AT or higher AT-related ratings and appointments are current.)

It would also be good for the FAA and USHPA to know what kind of ultalight or sport plane tug and airplane you use for towing hang gliders and sailplanes with at your operation (if any), along with a general description of your towing operation or who you provide towing and instructional services for (if any).

Additionally, if you want to really present a convincing argument, you should also: (a) get other experts to co-sign your letter, such as those who have some or most of the aerotowing-related credentials listed above, who have been doing this for many years with many students, and who support your argument; and (b) present reliable data based on valid research showing that there is a significant difference in safety with the changes that you recommend. Supportive comments from aerotow experts along with convincing data can make a difference. Otherwise, it may seem as if your perception of "the sky is falling" may not be shared by most others who have a wealth of experience and who are deeply involved in aerotowing in the US.

This information would also be very helpful in convicing the USHPA and others to take your complaint seriously. Most of the individuals who serve on the USHPA Towing Committe have most of the credentials listed above, so it will be great for you to let them know about your similar credentials and depth of experience, too. If you do not have those credentials, it will be a simple matter for the USHPA Tow Committee to respond to the FAA to discount your complaint, so it will be very important for you to present this information in your letter to the FAA and to others now.

The best way to make change is to get involved, and join the Tow Committee at its meetings. That's what people who really care do to make change. Such is the nature of the great opportunities we have to make a difference in the US (although it means having to spend time, money, and effort, compared to the ease of just sitting in front of a computer.)

Good luck with your endeavor, and regards,

Dr. Tracy Tillman
USHPA Director, Region 7
FAA Detroit FSDO FAAST Aviation Safety Counselor

If the matter is not promptly resolved then contact Paul Murdoch at USHPA and raise your concerns.

Along the lines of what Bob did?

If our USHPA president fails to take your concern seriously then contact me. I will draft new proposed FAA regulations and submit these to the FAA for consideration to amend FAR 103.

1. Welcome to the Whistleblowers' Club. See how popular that makes you - and how it affects your opportunities to fly.
2. Wanna hear what kind of luck I had with those useless pieces o' shit in trying to get them to do something about EXISTING aerotow regulations?

I value my free-flying privileges in locations where I rely upon our liability insurance for site access. It means a lot to me.

And good luck flying these locations minus a rating from the corporate monopoly that controls hang gliding in the US.

Having tandem pilots place passengers or even spectators at risk means little or nothing to me in comparison. In fact I view this as a threat to my freedoms and privileges and so should every one of you who may be reading this.

1. Tandem "instruction" was one of the worst things to ever happen to this sport.

2. But we don't EVER have a serious crash of any nature right out of the blue without tons of warning shots being fired across the bow. It took us fucking FOREVER to get the nice clean unambiguous (and officially totally indecipherable) pro toad / standard aerotow weak link Zack Marzec kill we did but there isn't anybody who's ever aerotowed more than a day or two who wasn't seeing the warning shots all the fuckin' time at whatever operation it was to which he was subjecting itself. Fatality reports in the magazine since the beginning of time, forum posts, videos coming outta our asses.

How 'bout we put a moratorium on Low Turns to Final discussions until after we can at least document a relevant skinned knee?

Meanwhile I will work on improving my landings. Maybe I can get some more badly needed coaching from Ryan if he'll still talk to me.

Just do them the way his dad does:

http://vimeo.com/4945693

01-0519
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3705/14082549588_bbaae4d12b_o.png

05-2711
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3826/14268778754_3c7e80a94e_o.png

06-3018
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2904/14246080356_78b0a3d7c9_o.png

14-3616
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2911/14269186625_c8b3fec256_o.png

15-3703
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3677/14267100052_9ba5bb5bdc_o.png

18-3806
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2929/14082628227_f96a81b821_o.png

20-4106
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3786/14082586920_34b189f5c2_o.png


The perfect landing in the perfect field in perfect conditions.

08-1314
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3881/14525903561_c6429313bb_o.png

[<BS>]

Can't find / Don't recall that one.

Ron Keinan
http://www.shga.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=5373

[NMERider]

....

I think I tripped and fractured my big toe here. 2 days later I flew a 40-mile route from Crestline to Victorville with my right foot in a soft cast, launching and landing on one foot.
A lot of pilots have eaten it here in the Big-T Wash. This is LA Basin X/C reality. Sylmar has now proven itself to be a better PG X/C site with few HGs who venture out much.
Considering the typical HG pilot is ~60 years old while the PG pilots are in their 30s, the deck is stacked in their favor on most X/C days.
This is reality as opposed to the make-believe spewed out by the 'killers' of this sport.

[Tad Eareckson]

Let myself get derailed from the discussion and plan on continuing but:
http://www.kitestrings.org/post9254.html#p9254

I'd wanted to find the book and check my light pencil marks to properly:
- answer Steve's now fifteen plus month old question
- archive my proofreading work for the zero or so individuals likely to be interested

Found:
- the book
- a "bunch" of mistakes... - something of an exaggeration

---
XXVI

...critique of chapter I.

- Chapter should be capitalized and that "I" should be a "1" - and that latter issue's consistent with lotsa references, standardization throughout the text. Suspect that zillions of years ago he'd grown accustomed to a typewriter with limited capabilities and used that substitution. But the editor should've fixed it.
---
041

...both launches off within the window of opportunity.

- Redundant. Windows and Opportunities are both openings. Pick one.
---
165

I was really not kind to the Marshal people...

- (Marshall Space Flight Center)
---
194

...turn down such an historic opportunity?

- "Historic" starts with a consonant - just like "History".
---
232

...than I would ever have imaged.

- No, he's not talking about taking pictures.
---
242

Mariner I0 was the seventh successful launch in the
_Mariner series and the first spacecraft to use the
gravitational pull of one planet (Venus) to reach...

- Text justification failure.
---
242

...on 29 March 1974, at 2,046 UT, at a distance of...

- How 'bout 20:46 UT(C)?
---
Sorry to have taken so long. It's been gnawing on my conscience a bit all this time.