http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=49667
Ron Keinan
David Williamson - 2016/09/20 22:06:44 UTC
There's a big discussion just been started in the U.K. about the influence of modern harness/glider/helmet setups on spinal injuries, following a few serious incidents here.
Super! I'll bet we'll be seeing something concrete coming out of it any day now. Keep up the great work!
NMERider - 2016/09/20 22:41:07 UTC
I have read the discussion on British Hangies that Nick started and I'd suggest starting a new topic (thread) here if you want to discuss it.
No. I wanna hear the revolutionary insights here and now.
I'd rather not speculate on the precise nature of Ron's impact or internal injury here.
Absorbed all the impact with his head. Salad bowl on a string for a helmet. Vegged.
Let's wait for Ron himself to recover and offer his knowledge when the time arrives.
Don't hold your breath.
He's a healthy and motivated person.
Was.
I know people who came back from long comas and serious internal injuries.
Came back as what and for how long?
Thermalfinder - 2016/09/20 23:11:15 UTC
In my opinion...like advanced paragliders topless h-gliders are unforgiving advanced-plus rated so riskier than sport-class.
Yeah. If Ron had had something with a crappier glide ratio he wouldn't have tried for that field.
Sustainability may require all sport-class glider fields.
In other words... All these Three and Four rating spot landing requirements are 100.00 percent totally fucking useless out in the REAL world - and much worse than that in the practice environments.
Better fundamentals & training may also help
1. Ya think?
2. So point to one single school, program instructor anywhere on the planet who's teaching and training appropriately.
3. Any thoughts on the assholes who signed Ron off on his Ratings and Special Skills? Just kidding.
Patrick Halfhill - 2016/09/21 00:23:07 UTC
these new topless kites are really easy to fly
Funny the way Ron didn't.
NMERider - 2016/09/21 01:11:29 UTC
They sure are. But they still rely on pendulum stability and control which has inherent limits that easily be exceeded.
And they don't fly through trees very well.
It's easier now than ever to develop a false sense of security and get into trouble.
Just never do a hook-in check. Problem solved.
It's up to each pilot to create an imaginary set of boundaries based on time of day, location, weather, terrain, health and any other relevant factor then not venture outside those boundaries.
Ron did. They were way too narrow though.
It's up to each pilot to periodically update this set of boundaries on an active and ongoing basis or as needed before and during each flight.
When was the last time anyone else reading this...
Meaning only people on Davis's approved list.
...sat down and discussed with anyone else what I just stated in the two lines above?
Nobody had time. Everybody was out on the training hill perfecting his flare timing.
I ask because this is what active risk management is and frankly, I don't find too many pilots engaged in this process--at least not that I'm aware.
Just use an appropriate weak link with a finished length of 1.5 inches or less. It will break before you can get into too much trouble.
That simple two line process can be the difference between a happy ending and a sad one and I have lost count of the number of friends and associates who failed to engage this process and had a sad ending.
From the half dozen 2-man practice task races I have done I had to learn to integrate this risk assessment process into my strategizing to win the task.
It's very easy for me to get so wrapped up in winning that I forget I need to land in one piece to do the next race task and the one after that.
That's not what happened with Ron. He selected the safest looking field he could find and executed the safest possible approach - just as he was trained. (Joe Julik comes to mind. (Also Joe Greblo.)
Jeff Chipman - 2016/09/21 04:22:35 UTC
I'm pretty sure he may be speaking of task selection. This day there was a small discussion (if you could even say it was a discussion since only Davis spoke up).
Like what happens when appropriate bridles and weak links are determined for everyone for the beginning of the flight. (And anybody else who speaks up...
http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question
Jim Rooney - 2008/11/24 05:18:15 UTC
BTW, if you think I'm just spouting theory here, I've personally refused to tow a flight park owner over this very issue. I didn't want to clash, but I wasn't towing him. Yup, he wanted to tow with a doubled up weaklink. He eventually towed (behind me) with a single and sorry to disappoint any drama mongers, we're still friends. And lone gun crazy Rooney? Ten other tow pilots turned him down that day for the same reason.
...can go fuck himself.
What did he speak up about? It was that the second turnpoint really didn't have any good landing options compared to other TP's available in the vicinity.
Oh. So despite the fact that everyone and his dog start training from Day 1, Flight 1 to safely land in narrow dry riverbeds with large rocks strewn all over the place and never stop, actual comp pilots actually need actual safe landing fields within range at all times. Who'da thunk.
On our way into the second TP, I report my progress and altitude a Ron warns me that he's struggling and to make sure I have the altitude before heading into the 2nd TP.
You mean the way he didn't have much altitude before heading to his target field and total squandered what he did have when he arrived?
As I climbed above Derrick Turner, I finally near 4900' assuring the TP. On the way there is see two gliders looking like they are flying in formation leaving the mountains low. Turns out this would be Ron and John Simon. I looked for a while but had my own task to fly. There didn't look like much out there as stated hours earlier by Davis.
Good ol' Davis. Always working his ass off to ensure that all pilots always have the widest safety margins passible.
This task put pleanty of pilots in perilous landing situations.
No it didn't. No pilots had guns to their heads being forced to fly out low over injun country.
But I don't really think we had an adequate discussion on the merits of choosing TP I885 over I8Stan which would have been a safer alternative.
However this was my best flight of the competition placing 12th for the day. But mostly thanks to my buddy Ron who was basically telling me to downshift, which I did.
This time I'm telling him to speed up his recovery because we miss him.
Too late.
Doug M - 2016/09/26 02:48:02 UTC
May I suggest that most every pilot needs to heavily concentrate on his / her landing skills.
Smaller old Frisbees in middles of primary LZs. More perfected flare timing.
So many comp pilots (at least in vids that I've studied as well as watching the shenanigans at the LZ's) have some very atrocious landing mechanics and seemingly little understanding of airflow at ground level...
Tell me how landing mechanics and airflow at ground level had any bearing whatsoever on Ron's crash.
...yet they are quite adept at sniffing out the slightest of thermals.
Upright, with their hands on the control tubes at shoulder or ear height.
Seemingly, too many believe the gear will help save them (helmets).
1. (Rooney Links.)
2. Bull fucking shit. NOBODY takes a greater chance of smashng his head into something because of groater confidence in the quality of his helmet.
As any long-lived, experienced motorcyclist will tell you, helmets will only help in a very slight glancing blow, and / or VERY slow speed impact.
Why does one need to be long-lived and experienced to understand that?
Too much acceleration (or de-acceleration to non-physics types)...
Meaning all hang glider pilots.
...will obviously permanently injure the brain.
http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25015
Zippy pounds in
Davis Straub - 2011/09/02 18:37:09 UTC
Concussions are in fact very serious and have life long effects. The last time I was knocked out what in 9th grade football. I have felt the effects of that ever since. It changes your wiring.
The only way to limit the excessive acceleration of the brain is to keep the head from hitting anything immovable.
Like the ground. So ya always wanna get bolt upright with your hands high on the control tubes...
John Simon - 2009/01
I intended to make a nice, long, straight final while upright on the downtubes - conservative and safe.
...right at the beginning of your nice, long, straight final - conservative and safe.
Most motorcycle accidents that involve head injuries involve riders with low experience and/or those that have not had any formal ride training nor accident evasion training. The brand of helmet (contrary to what all the helmet manufacturers will tell you) really does not matter.
Got that much bloody well right.
What really needs to happen in our chosen sport is for ALL pilots to better understand landing mechanics. Use those non-soarable days for landing practice. Get your clubs to implement landing clinics, with the help of someone who really knows his / her craft (landing skills).
1. Ryan Instant-Hands-Free-Release Voight, Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney, Mitch Shipley - the people who are never around participating in any of these postmortem discussions.
2. Bull fucking shit. If these assholes who really know their craft (landing skills) their expertise would be assimilated by their students and infused into the culture and the aforementioned assholes would become redundant. This crap we hear in hang gliding endlessly decade after decade doesn't exist in CONVENTIONAL aviation 'cause landing ain't all that complicated and there's only so good you can get at it. And when people crash on landings there's never any great mystery as to why and the reason is never because they hadn't adequately mastered the understandings and techniques.
Too many instructors believe they know how to land, but it is usually in very controlled, easy environments that they practice.
It's ALWAYS and ONLY in very controlled, easy, fake environments that they practice and show everybody how great they are.
18-3806
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2929/14082628227_f96a81b821_o.png
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3786/14082586920_34b189f5c2_o.png
20-4106
None of these fucking douchebags fly XC scratching in light thermals low over injun country. If they did we'd see them getting busted up, vegged, killed along with everybody else.
60-34928
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http://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1485/25962144855_8d0a7dff0c_o.png
64-35902
Then they wouldn't have their precious fake reputations to fall back on.
We must practice landings more often in non-perfect conditions. Cross winds, tight approaches, with and without drogues, bla bla bla bla bla.
We just did. That's how Ron got vegged. And now everybody's screaming about not having comp XC routes that that involve non-perfect conditions, crosswinds, tight approaches, bla bla bla...
We needto have more tools on our belts rather than more safety equipment that only come into play when we F-up...
Would that include Low Turns to Final?
(NOT that I am against safety equipment and safety procedures).
'Cause if it does I don't recall you speaking up on Telepilot's Jack Show thread.
Any good GA or commercial pilot will practice many, many touch-and-goes and short landings to keep his landing skills up.
1. Super. And I'll bet they're all masters and coming into marginal fields they've never seen before low with engines out.
2. Short landings? What are those? The concept doesn't exist in hang gliding.
We need to do the same.
Great. You be first and post some of your better videos. I'll be over here holding my breath.
Perhaps one of the best methods for quickly getting back into the air after each landing is by scooter tow. Logistics and property to execute this are not always easy, but it's something to think about.
And scooter tow is such an excellent tool for teaching challenging approaches to severely limited cactus infested landing fields.
Just like XC practice, we all need more landing practice to hone our skills so that we may fly again.
Bull fucking shit. Ron's disaster had shit to do with skills and everything to do with fundamental theory and judgment. Do ANYTHING in this game in which your safety dependent on finely honed skills and you WILL get bit.
Davis Straub - 2016/09/26 03:39:58 UTC
That's exactly why scooter towing is the superior teaching method.
Practice, practice, practice.
Suck my dick, Davis - times three.
Bille Floyd - 2016/09/26 19:33:18 UTC
I don't like towing ; but i would do a scooter-tow with an attentive operator , (even with the fake feet) !!
Which match your fake brain.
Greg Kendall - 2016/09/28 05:48:17 UTC
I'd just like to point out that there's a big difference between landing practice and out-landing practice.
"Big" doesn't scratch the surface.
I looked at Ron's LZ. It's tight because there are power lines on two sides and trees on the remainder. Ron is an experienced XC and competition pilot. Hopefully we'll get the whole story when he wakes up, but I suspect he cut it close to the trees because he was worried about overshooting into the power lines.
Bull fucking shit. Did you look at the Airtribune animation?
Leaving the hills low and heading for a collection of previously unseen, marginal LZs results in a lot of decision making. The practice that one gets from a scooter tow (while valuable)...
For the operator.
...is only a fraction of what is needed to consistently make safe out-landings.
It's ten miles south of TOTALLY USELESS. Every MINUTE wasted on scooter tow is a minute forever lost to learning and/or practicing something of ACTUAL VALUE.
And if that's not true then where are all the really accomplished XC flyers - and I'll cite Jonathan as a - probably THE - top example of someone with a lot of success dealing with a lot of extremely hostile XC landing environments - raving about scooter tow practice and spending every third weekend so engaged?
That way when a weak link breaks on you, ITS A NON-ISSUE. Genius huh??? 
