Weak links

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26134
Whipstall almost tumble

Andrew Stakhov - 2011/12/23 16:32:21 UTC

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMsIkAOeJ0I


This happened to a buddy of mine, platform tow...

Yeah. A platform tow. Off a dolly. With the truck about a half mile upwind.

...the car went waaay too fast.

Yeah. The car went waaay too fast. That was DEFINITELY the big problem with that tow.

Brad Gryder - 2011/12/23 16:42:28 UTC

Wow, that was close!

Didn't hafta be.

I used to attempt to train stationary winch operators to contol our V8-engine powered system, and I had similar experiences while using "strong" weak links.

- No you didn't. You had similar experiences using "weak" weak links. You weren't stressing the glider any more than the glider in this video was being stressed when the situation went to hell.

- I notice you're not specifying a G rating. And I'm wondering if you ever even tested to find out what you were flying.

- The implication being, of course, that if you had been using "weak" weak links they'd have blown before the glider could have reached those pitch attitudes and the possibility of a dangerous stall like that could've been eliminated. Bullshit.

The only way I could manage those events was intentionally roll off to one side early on.

Did you give a thought as to how you could PREVENT those events from happening in the first place?

Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson

Just kidding.

I was fortunate to have survived those days - being towed by corner bracket twice, etc. I don't miss my Comet too much, but it was strong and forgiving.

Yeah, the Comet. Right about at the beginning of Hewettmania.

Glad that beach pilot "hung" in there while the luffies did their job.

Bart Doets - 2011/12/23 18:39:46 UTC

Sure but HOW close we'll never know because in all three versions the shot is cut away before you see the ground again... well I suppose he lived.

That's not the part of the sequence upon which we should be focusing.

Not only too much power on the cable...

C'mon, you're talking to Americans. Say PRESSURE on the cable so's they can clearly understand you.

...but the pilot let the bar out too much too. Probably he is used (with normal cable pull) to just let it out as far as it wants to go...

You wanna say anything about the loss of the towline? Just kidding.

Rob Clarkson - 2011/12/23 19:43:51 UTC

That's not platform towing it's static towing.

Almost certainly.

Rich Jesuroga - 2011/12/23 23:27:11 UTC

You can see the reflex lines pull on the trailing edge as the glider goes negative.

Did you take a look at the sail just BEFORE things started going south? Just kidding.

prithg76 - 2011/12/18

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMsIkAOeJ0I
Extreme Hang Glider Whip Stall

This whip stall ocurred on the beaches of Mexico a few years back. This was the first flight of my trip which turned into an eye opening moment. Many mistakes were made on launch but the extreme tension...

- Ooh! You said TENSION! Is that the way people talk in Canada?
- How "extreme"? Wanna express that in Gs or pounds? Just kidding.

...from the tow (done by truck) was enough to rocket me into the air.

As would have a gust or, elsewhere, a thermal on a static tow.

When I tried to transition...

- So you were:

- flying a Koch two stage.

- trying to transition to under the basetube to continue the tow - not hit the panic paddle to blow the tow. 'Cause blowing the tow could've been suicide.

...the bridle just blew apart.

- Your BRIDLE blew apart before your WEAK LINK? Totally inexcusable.

- What were you using for a weak link? I mean BESIDES your bridle?

- Your legs aren't in your pod so you're EXPECTING a blow.

- You were supposed to be the goddam Pilot In Command, your objective was to continue the tow, you couldn't do it 'cause the equipment you elected to go up on was crap.

After the disorienting whip stall I managed to get the glider level and land. Phew! Close one.

AviationDad - 2011/12/19

It actually appeared that you had a lockout

Right. It was a lockout. The glider's level as the Bonneville Salt Flats the ENTIRE TOW, it's under control and doing fine UNTIL it blows tow, but it was a lockout. 'Cause ever since 1981 the only problem one can possibly have in a tow operation is a lockout. And the way you prevent or mitigate a lockout is to use something in the system that breaks real easy. (Idiot.)

As long as this lunatic discussion continues nobody will EVER identify the blow from tow as even a part of the problem.

[Steve Davy]

Did you take a look at the sail just BEFORE things started going south?

What do you see ?

[Tad Eareckson]

ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

The sail looks perfectly normal, there's no deflection of the leading edges, everything's fine and under control save for the fact that the climb rate and angle are a bit on the high side.

If he were using a 1.5 to 2.0 G weak link for a weak link instead of a piece o' crap bridle for a weak link, at blow time the sail and leading edges would look like they would if the glider were at the bottom of a loop. And I'm thinking that even if the driver were DELIBERATELY trying to hit that range he might have to ask quite a bit of the truck.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.ushawks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=821
Fatal hang gliding accident

Bill Cummings - 2011/11/16 06:46:42 UTC

Manned Kiting
The Basic Handbook of Tow Launched Hang Gliding
Daniel F. Poynter
1974

"The greatest dangers are a rope break or a premature release." - Richard Johnson.

This quote has been put forward by Tad E. and parroted by others to add strength to the strong weaklink theory and was a bad choice in that effort.

Richard Johnson was my tow instructor (Jan 1978).

The type of towing he was referring to was: pop starts off of the beach, tow rope special ordered from Japan (3/8," diameter, 2,025 lbs breaking strength), no weak-link, towing bridle hooked only to a stainless steel control frame, climb rates of over 1,000'/min., where a rope break or premature release would put you part way into a uncompleted loop. (In and out of the water so no parachute.) Don't read any more into his statement than that. It has absolutely no correlation to any of the kind of towing that is being done now days.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMsIkAOeJ0I

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26134
Whipstall almost tumble

Steve Davy - 2011/12/26 05:45:56 UTC

Crazy idea, why not use a bridle that will NOT "blow apart" ?

Mike Bomstad - 2011/12/26 08:33:15 UTC
Spokane

Well, how about a weak link......

Donnell Hewett - 1981/10

Now I've heard the argument that "Weak links always break at the worst possible time, when the glider is climbing hard in a near stall situation," and that "More people have been injured because of a weak link than saved by one." Well, I for one have been saved by a weak link and would not even consider towing without one.

Yeah Rodent, if you don't have SOMETHING that needlessly and routinely blows apart at the worst possible time, when the glider is climbing hard in a near stall situation, the chances of you making it to fifty feet without locking out and dying on your next tow are so remote as to merit no discussion. So what's it matter whether it's a...

Andrew Stakhov - 2011/12/28 16:36:12 UTC

What my friend has told me is that there was so much force on the bar going outwards he was just hanging on. You can see him actually hanging off the bar at the apex of the whipstall. I saw the raw footage - he does another one of those to a lesser degree. And then recovers into ground effect and flares for landing. Very scary to watch.

...bridle...

Towing Aloft - 1998/01

As the towline wears from abrasion and UV exposure, its breaking strength diminishes. Typically pilots continue using a line until it begins to break on a regular basis at normal tow tensions. Given the general tendency by pilots to save money, it is probable that you will experience a line failure during a towing career.

1978/04/06 - Bill Flewellyn - 31 - Hang IV - Moyes Stinger - Toowoomba, Queensland

Vehicle tow during exhibition. Rope broke at 100 feet. Dived in.

...towline...

1990/07/05 - Eric Aasletten - 24 - Intermediate - 2-3 years - UP Axis - Hobbs, New Mexico

Reasonably proficient intermediate with over a year of platform tow experience was launching during tow meet. Immediately after launch, the glider pitched up sharply with nose very high. Apparently the angle caused an "auto release" of the tow line from the pilot, who completed a hammerhead stall and dove into the ground.

...pitch and lockout limiter, or...

07: Infallible Weak Link

The system must include a weak link which will infallibly and automatically release the glider from tow whenever the tow line tension exceeds the limit for safe operation. (There is always the possibility something unexpected can happen. Breaking point should be appropriate for the weight and experience of the pilot, not to exceed 1G - sum of all towed parts.)

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=865
Tandem pilot and passenger death

Mike Van Kuiken - 2005/10/13 19:47:26 UTC

The weak link broke from the tow plane side. The towline was found underneath the wreck, and attached to the glider by the weaklink. The glider basically fell on the towline.

...weak link which will infallibly and automatically release the glider from tow whenever the towline tension exceeds the limit for safe operation, breaking point appropriate for the weight and experience of the pilot, not to exceed 1G - sum of all towed parts?

[Tad Eareckson]

Mike Bomstad (aka "Wonder Boy"), by the way, is a total moron.

http://www.paraglidingforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=28697
Weak links why do we use them. in paragliding.

Aart de Wachter - 2009/12/10 14:24:17 UTC
The Netherlands

Com'on this start to feel like troling... you sound like EVERYONE is going to DIE from winching That winching only works the Tad-way...

Wonder Boy - 2009/12/12 05:50:32 UTC

Tad just likes to go from forum to forum starting shit.
He was been banned from the hangliding.org, and this same shit has been hashed out on the OZ report.

From what I have read, he is no longer flying and has all this free time to drum shit up.

I had him ignored here, but I come here today and I was logged out and I see all his posts.... it will never end........ ever.

Check those groups, you will see the same frustration there also.

Wonder Boy - 2009/12/12 06:46:44 UTC

I know Tad causes some to think, but all the "your going to die...." gets old.

Wonder Boy - 2010/01/17 05:31:44 UTC

this is still going....... I tried to tell ya it would never end

Mike Bomstad - 2010/01/17 06:54:32 UTC

Here you go I found this:
http://hpac.ca/tow/HPAC_Tow_Manual.asp

3.4.1 - Weak Link Specifications For Hang Gliders

Recommended breaking load of a weak link for surface-based towing is from 100% to 120% of the towed weight. This will usually be approximately 90-135 kg (200-300 lb) for solo operations.

Experienced pilots flying in turbulent conditions may prefer weak links at the higher end of the range, while less experienced pilots and students (at the discretion of their instructor) should be at or below the low end of that range.

Wonder Boy - 2010/02/15 22:22:25 UTC

I told you it would never end...

Well Mike...

Forum Moderators - 2010/02/24 22:02 UTC

We, the Moderators, feel that weak links are an important topic. In our view Tad Eareckson's posts have discouraged others from taking part in this discussion, so, after several warnings, he has been banned. His most recent post, after this topic was locked, is here. We are happy to lift the ban if we come to the view that Tad has further positive contributions to make - please contact us by PM or by email if you feel that this is the case.

...looks like you were wrong about it never ending. And now there are EVEN MORE places where Tad won't be causing some to think.

Hey Bob,

You should try to get this guy to sign up and help you build a better National Hang Gliding Organization, a safe place for people of varying ages. He'd fit RIGHT IN with EVERYTHING you have in mind.

[Steve Davy]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26134
Whipstall almost tumble

Mike Bomstad - 2011/12/26 08:33:15 UTC
Spokane

Well, how about a weak link...

How about a flashlight or a banana or a rubber duck ?
Must be nice to be so fukin' dumb.

[Tad Eareckson]

Pardon my delay in responding. Took a couple of minutes to stop laughing.
Yeah, being that fukin dumb sure seems to help a lot with getting along in damn near any hang gliding community ya wanna name.
P.S. Damn I wish I'd said that.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMsIkAOeJ0I

Gordon Rigg - 2011/12/24

...and don't ever think you are too low to use a parachute - if you might need it get it out and think about it later. I pulled mine at 400 feet and it worked fine!

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26134
Whipstall almost tumble

Mike Bomstad - 2011/12/26 08:33:15 UTC

Well, how about a weak link......

Hey kids!!!

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1079
$15 pacifiers

Jim Rooney - 2005/09/20 13:11:43 UTC

Your VG is backed up for the same reason that your main hang strap is backed up... it is a fabric to metal connection. There is a metal cable that is there to stop your crossbars from folding should your vg snap.

The mains on my harness are backed up also. Same reason, metal to fabric connection. I'm not sure all harnesses are this way.

Sorry, I don't see the logic in trying to save a couple bucks on equipment that I am litterally entrusting my life to. "Pacifier"? may be... but there's an old saying out there... "You never need the backup, until you need the backup".

I know of at least one pilot out there that flies with two caribiners. His logic makes more sense to me... you can't have too many backups.

$.02

How 'bout a parachute AND a weak link!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uegD4QeAc58

25-0820

26-0902

34-1209


http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/09/02 23:09:12 UTC

Yeah, damn those pesky safety devices!
Remember kids, always blame the equipment.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=24305
Reflex bridles at work

Mike Bomstad - 2011/12/25 18:15:19 UTC

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMsIkAOeJ0I


How about a weak link........naaaaa
Lucky SOB
-
Everyone who lives dies, yet not everyone who dies, has lived.
We take these risks not to escape life, but to prevent life escaping us.

Rate this post

How about a weak link...

OK Mike, how about a weak link...

- Any PARTICULAR weak link?

The most critical part of a tow flight is the launch, the launch itself is identical to an aerotow launch. So should he be using an Industry Standard loop of 130 pound Greenspot - regardless of his flying weight?

http://ozreport.com/12.081
Weaklinks - the HGFA rules

Davis Straub - 2008/04/22 14:47:00 UTC

From section 3.4 of the 1999 Hang Gliding Federation of Australia Towing Manual:

Recommended breaking load of a weak link is 1g. - i.e. the combined weight of pilot, harness and glider (dependent on pilot weight - usually approximately 90 to 100 kg for solo operations; or approximately 175 kg for tandem operations).

Here is the requirement from the 2007 Worlds local rules (which I wrote) for weaklinks:

Pilots must use weaklinks provided by the meet organizers and in a manner approved by the meet organizers. All weaklinks will be checked and use of inappropriate weaklinks will require the pilot to go to the end of the launch line to change the weaklink.

Weaklinks will consist of a single loop of Cortland 130 lb Greenspot braided Dacron Tolling line and should be placed at one end of a shoulder bridle.

Oh wait! He's not using a bridle which splits the towline tension. So maybe he should just double the loop. That'll OBVIOUSLY double its strength and make everything work out PERFECTLY, right?

Or...

http://www.paraglidingforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=28697
Weak links why do we use them. in paragliding.

Mike Bomstad - 2010/01/17 06:54:32 UTC

Here you go I found this:
http://hpac.ca/tow/HPAC_Tow_Manual.asp

3.4.1 - Weak Link Specifications For Hang Gliders

Recommended breaking load of a weak link for surface-based towing is from 100% to 120% of the towed weight. This will usually be approximately 90-135 kg (200-300 lb) for solo operations.

...should we try to do Gs?

Maybe we should first check the math of our esteemed neighbors to the north...

The heaviest weak link - 1.2 Gs - a solo glider can use is 300 pounds. So that would make the heaviest solo glider flying at max weak link 300 pounds divided by 1.2 or 250 pounds. Seems a bit odd 'cause the max flying weights of a lot of solo gliders are about a hundred pounds over that but let's make this glider 250 pounds and put him up on a 1.0 G weak link.

A 914 Dragonfly normally tows solos at about 125 pounds towline tension. So with a weak link limiting the tension to just TWICE THAT - there's simply NO FREAKIN' WAY a glider could be towed up so steeply that when that 250 pounds abruptly popped...

0:50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR_4jKLqrus


...a dangerous stall could result.

- He separates from the cart at 0:08 and from the towline - when he attempts to go to Stage 2 - at 0:14. Pick a number between eight and fourteen when you think it would've been a really good time for him to have blown off of tow - voluntarily using his release, or upon the determination of his Infallible Weak Link. (Shithead.)

...naaaaa

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/4597
Weaklinks

Donnell Hewett - 2005/02/08 23:28:13 UTC

Every towing system, without exception, contains a weaklink. It may be a string or mechanical device deliberately inserted into the towline, the towline itself, the release mechanism, the flying wires of the glider, the pilot's harness (when body towing), or some other component of the pilot-glider-tug system. But something eventually is going to be the first thing to break. That thing is the weaklink.

He HAD a fucking weak link. He wasn't anywhere remotely NEAR the ballpark of NEEDING a fucking weak link. What he really NEEDED was a fucking towline. But the fucking weak link deprived him of the use of the fucking towline.

Everyone who lives dies, yet not everyone who dies, has lived.
We take these risks not to escape life, but to prevent life escaping us.

You wanna take risks save up lotsa money and go to Vegas. Hang gliding is enough of a bloodbath as it is without a bunch of idiot risk takers and risk taking idiots participating in it and running their mouths in public.

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For Mike? Typical.