landing

[TheFjordflier]

Electric in Oslo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iW4jPwijp64

[NMERider]

Electric in Oslo....

+1 Team Norway!

[TheFjordflier]

Just testing to log in. ( had some difficulties )
And trying to submit a video link. Not as before

http://vimeo.com/241930506
The Frafjord camping site landing
TheFjordflier - 2017/11/08 19:13 UTC

[Tad Eareckson]

You have the link OK - just not the display and on-forum viewing. And I always go to the link anyway to see the submitter, date, comments. This is mostly just a cosmetic issue and I'm sure Zack will have it dealt with within the next couple days.

Landing...

Don't want to overshoot that one and REALLY don't want to undershoot. That could be really deadly if the water's as deep as it looks. So nice job on the centering but I don't think it would hurt to tighten the pattern up a bit.

And be careful not to pancake in too hard with that stuff center mounted on your control bar. A couple decades ago we had a club guy by the name of George Price who crashed on a mountain flight approach with a center mounted vario which caused very serious abdominal injuries which put him in the hospital for surgery precipitated the end of his career.

Not saying to move it to a side, what with the advantage you get reading the instrument deck and especially with the great shots you're getting from the camera boom, but just be sure whenever you have a choice between crashing and not crashing to go with the latter option. Also wouldn't hurt to stack the deck a bit with a pair of wheels or skids.

And yeah, that field's about what you'd get with a carrier deck. Good news - you're coming in at about twenty percent of the airspeed. Bad news - you only get one try at the approach (and can't eject).

[TheFjordflier]

You have the link OK - just not the display and on-forum viewing. And I always go to the link anyway to see the submitter, date, comments. This is mostly just a cosmetic issue and I'm sure Zack will have it dealt with within the next couple days.

Yes, it's more appealing with an embedded video. He's (too) doing a great job.

Don't want to overshoot that one and REALLY don't want to undershoot. That could be really deadly if the water's as deep as it looks. So nice job on the centering but I don't think it would hurt to tighten the pattern up a bit.

Due to the switching wind, I opted for a bit wider pattern so I could make a bailout landing on one of the other fields.
Wasn't sure to go for it until turning base because of an expected tail wind.

And be careful not to pancake in too hard with that stuff center mounted on your control bar. A couple decades ago we had a club guy by the name of George Price who crashed on a mountain flight approach with a center mounted vario which caused very serious abdominal injuries which put him in the hospital for surgery precipitated the end of his career.

You are right. It's a concern, but I trust the chute container and all my bags and gear inside the large front container to hopefully soften any impact. Not ideal, but a tradeoff.
( And for a real carrier landing it's also an option to make a "go around" with full afterburner. )

[Tad Eareckson]

Yes, it's more appealing with an embedded video. He's (too) doing a great job.

Yep. And also one picture can be worth a thousand words. And lotsa times a single still from a video...

07-300
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...sends a more powerful message than the video in its entirety.

And THANK YOU for getting that beautiful avatar up so quickly.

Due to the switching wind, I opted for a bit wider pattern so I could make a bailout landing on one of the other fields.

As long as you always have one brain dead easy option in brain dead range. I was thinking that the reason you were going for the carrier deck instead one of those mouthwatering endless green expanses was because the former was the only option not protected by an antiaircraft battery.

I recall while flying at Ridgely hearing all the Highland Aerosports students and products obsessing about maintaining and adjusting angles to target points and watching them dangerously under and overshoot and crash at the old Frisbee in the middle of the LZ and into taxiway signs, ponds, and nearby cornfields. Guess they should get some kind of award though 'cause I never heard of a Ridgely flight ending up in a tree.

You are right. It's a concern, but I trust the chute container and all my bags and gear inside the large front container to hopefully soften any impact. Not ideal, but a tradeoff.

Chest mounted parachutes have saved lives and catastrophic injuries while and because of being still in the containers.

( And for a real carrier landing it's also an option to make a "go around" with full afterburner.

As long as there's still some gas in the tank. If not you're flying a fairly crappy glider with a really high sink rate and stall speed.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.ushpa.org/legacy/safety/Fatality%20Report%202015.pdf

2015/10/11 - Jesse Fulkersin

Jesse Fulkersin (62), an Advanced Hang Glider (H4) pilot and USHPA member since 1991, suffered fatal injuries landing his hang glider in Hyner View PA. After a short non-soaring flight around 2:45 PM, the pilot was performing a typical approach into the long tree lined landing area he knew well in mild conditions. After getting lined up for a final approach, the pilot hit some turbulence that raised his left wing. He aggressively corrected, resulting in a flight path that was heading to the left side of the tree lined field. The pilot again corrected and was in the middle of a 35 to 45 degree right banked turn when the left wing tip hit a tree at 30 feet above the ground. The glider stopped flying and rotated nose down into the ground resulting in fatal injuries on impact.

Jesse Fulkersin (62), an Advanced Hang Glider (H4) pilot...

Oh. So he was the pilot of an Advanced Hang Glider (H4).
- What kind was it? Where can I get one?
- How 'bout the pilot? Did he have a rating of some kind?

...and USHPA member since 1991, suffered fatal injuries landing his hang glider...

Wow. He LANDED his Advanced Hang Glider and still suffered fatal injuries. Most people I know who suffer fatal injuries do so as consequences of CRASHING their hang gliders. Just wasn't his day I guess. (Glad the glider came through OK though.)

...in Hyner View PA.

Hyner VIEW is the State Park with the overlook from which we LAUNCH - you morons. We LAND at HYNER - the thing we're viewing at the Hyner View launch.

After a short non-soaring flight...

...as opposed to a long non-soaring flight from twelve hundred feet...

...around 2:45 PM, the pilot was performing a typical approach...

How the fuck do you assholes know what a "typical" approach is?

...into the long tree lined landing area he knew well in mild conditions.

Pity he didn’t know the long tree lined landing area in unmild conditions.

After getting lined up for a final approach, the pilot hit some turbulence...

How 'bout the glider? Did it hit some turbulence too?

...that raised his left wing.

Guess so.

He aggressively corrected, resulting in a flight path that was heading to the left side of the tree lined field.

1. And here I was thinking that CORRECTING means getting back on track.
2. So I guess you're advising that we make our corrections less aggressive when our wings get raised. On a scale of one to ten...
3. Oh. At the end of two sentences the LZ is STILL tree lined. I've got a bad feeling about this one.

The pilot again corrected...

What aggression rating would you assign to this one?

...and was in the middle of a 35 to 45 degree right banked turn when the left wing tip hit a tree at 30 feet above the ground.

1. Above the GROUND? Not above a cow or sumpin'?

2. Correcting is obviously a poor choice in a situation like this. I wonder what things would be like at this point if he'd just let go of the control bar and closed his eyes.

The glider stopped flying and rotated nose down into the ground resulting in fatal injuries on impact.

1. Oh. So when the glider stops flying and rotates nose down into the ground resulting in fatal injuries on impact it's considered a landing. I certainly must remember this when I'm trying to qualify for my next rating.

2. Are you quite sure that he suffered the fatal injuries on impact? How do we know he didn't suffer the fatal injuries before or after impact? After all, he landed his glider at Hyner View and made two corrections on final.

So a Hang 4 who does everything right in mild, non-soaring conditions, corrects twice in the course of his typical approach to the tree lined field, suffers fatal injuries upon landing.

http://www.hynerclub.com/hyner.php
Hyner | The Hyner Club (2017/12/01)

HYNER
Site Rating:
- H2, P2 w/observer
USHPA Sanctioned?:
- Yes
Launch Condition:
- Slope, grassy
LZ Condition:
- Flat, grassy runway

How 'bout explaining to me the points of pilot and site ratings and supervision. Seems to me like we're all just rolling dice every time we fly anywhere in any conditions.

P.S. Good job, Jesse. Before I read this report I was thinking you'd screwed a pooch or two somewhere in the course of this approach.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.ushpa.org/legacy/safety/Fatality%20Report%202015.pdf

2015/10/11 - Jesse Fulkersin

Jesse Fulkersin (62), an Advanced Hang Glider (H4) pilot and USHPA member since 1991, suffered fatal injuries landing his hang glider in Hyner View PA. After a short non-soaring flight around 2:45 PM, the pilot was performing a typical approach into the long tree lined landing area he knew well in mild conditions. After getting lined up for a final approach, the pilot hit some turbulence that raised his left wing.

Which is a right/starboard bank, right? And tends to turn one to the right/starboard.

He aggressively corrected, resulting in a flight path that was heading to the left side of the tree lined field.

So he'd OVER corrected, right? Note no more discussion of air movement.

The pilot again corrected and was in the middle of a 35 to 45 degree right banked turn...

Port wing high / Starboard wing low.

...when the left wing tip hit a tree at 30 feet above the ground.

The HIGH wing tip hit a tree, on the outside of the turn, at 30 feet above the ground on the LEFT side of the strip?

The glider stopped flying and rotated nose down into the ground resulting in fatal injuries on impact.

And don't bother telling us whether he was prone on the basetube or upright on the control tubes with his hands at shoulder or ear height where he couldn't control the glider - not to mention the direction of the approach.

He's lined up for final, gets turned right, turns back left too far and crosses more than half the width of the strip to clip the tree lining. Doesn't make much sense but one thing I can tell ya for sure is that this one wouldn't have happened if he'd been carrying crisp maneuvering speed.

But u$hPa can't/won't say anything about airspeed being a GOOD thing 'cause if Jesse had been a New Two flying under the supervision of Matt Taber...

06-24901
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...or Joe Greblo...

27-080213
http://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4432/37169460236_c3fae2b7e8_o.png

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=35737
repetitive landings in turbulent areas continued from another thread

NMERider - 2017/11/27 07:28:43 UTC

The single most significant aspect of an effective and reliable drogue is to get the glider on the ground as quickly as possible without picking up excess airspeed.

The ONLY time there's such a thing as excess airspeed is low on final with limited runway. Prior to that excess airspeed can be used for / converted to control authority, maneuvering options, altitude, airtime. Those are all good things.

The principle drawback is being prepared to deal with wind shadows and strong surface gradients. These can be dealt with effectively with a little planning and preparedness.

As can damn near everything we do in this sport.

As you are clearly personally aware, there are some highly thermic and active LZs that can bite an ill-prepared pilot in the ass and send him to the ER in a heartbeat.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=21088
What you wish you'd known then?

Doug Doerfler - 2011/03/02 05:24:44 UTC

Nothing creates carnage like declaring a spot landing contest.

Typically in my own experience, any time there is lift going off above LZs like these the surface winds are likely to be swirling around in one or more spirals of wind which can easily result in a crash. The way I have learned to deal with situations like this is by staying in the air until a sink cycle comes through. When there's sink, the surface winds tend to be more constant and allow for an uneventful landing. The trouble comes when I am unable to dive down to the deck and land fast enough before the next lift cycle kicks off. This is where a good drogue can be a godsend.

Case in point: I flew from Pine Mountain in Ojai to Phelan where decided to turn around and land back at Crystalaire gliderport in Llano. When I arrived above the gliderport the lift went from 3,000'MSL to 15,000' in spite of it being late in the day. The entire runway was covered in dust devils from end to end. Over a dozen whirling Tasmanian Devils from the Bugs Bunny cartoon. I had to hang around in the air but got carried up a few thousand feet AGL where I waited for the dust devils to flush out and the windsocks to shows a steady breeze associated with sink. I deployed my drogue and stuffed the bar. I was able to descend very quickly without over-speeding the glider and getting trashed in the turbulence higher up. Once I got low I just picked a spot on the tarmac and landed with ease. Within a minute the wind began to whip up as the next thermal cycle kicked into gear.

The idea is to descend quickly in a controlled fashion without picking up much speed. By keeping the glider's angle of attack low and pointing the nose down, when a gradient or shadow is encountered it's not that big a deal. The Sensor flaps don't come anywhere close to achieving this. I logged plenty of hours and X/C miles on my 610 F3 152 and the flaps were a little helpful but that's all. The drag required for real safety in variable thermic conditions is huge. It takes a well-designed drogue to accomplish this along with prudent practice and judicial use by the pilot.

Ideally we'd have spoilers like a sailplane but the complexity and potential lack of reliability could turn an asymmetrical spoiler situation into an another fatal accident on a flex wing. Drogues are simple and have been around since the late 70's. In many parts of the world they are commonplace. Thanks to the presence of certain unreliable designs and superstitions in the U.S. they are sadly underutilized. The pilots I know who have adapted to using the 6-panel model that Dustin sells have been extremely happy with the glide path control they now have at their fingertips. It's about glide path control. It's not a set of brakes like on a car. The important thing is to be able to glide down steeply without gaining too much airspeed. There is tremendous value and safety in being able to do this.

NMERider - 2017/11/27 19:20:52 UTC

There's another situation that's a silent killer. Dead calm in the desert on an unstable day. Worst possible situation you can imagine. The wake created by a hang glider coming in to land can cause an entire chunk of real estate to lift off all at once sending the HG tumbling.

That's probably not gonna send a glider tumbling - 'cept of course if it's some pro toad going up with a Standard Aerotow Weak Link as the focal point of his safe towing system. Then it's a virtual certainty. And DO be thinking about that with respect to the way they get gliders airborne for...

13-02819
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14-03123
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18-03625
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...the Santa Cruz Flats Race. If you'd towed into the thermal Zack Marzec did using the same equipment he was / you were you'd have shortly wound up just as dead.

On a good tight landing approach I'm not seeing it as much of a problem.

A friend of mine gained 12,000' in one thermal when he was coming in to land over the dead calm LZ at Garlock.

1. Gawd how I wish that would happen to me sometime.
2. Yeah. When he was coming in to land OVER the dead calm LZ at Garlock.

The late Erwin McDavid was driving the truck and realized it had been calm for too long. Erwin drove the truck in a circle and the entire LZ went up at once carrying Adam N. from 4K to 16K in one climb.

You California guys are spoiled rotten.

Imagine what could have happened to Adam if was circling to land and dropped into the super-adiabatic layer of stagnant air at say 150' AGL?

At 150 feet? No-brainer. Go back up and spend the next three months telling everyone and his dog about the awesome low save you pulled.

On approach? I never turn onto final until I'm at or below treetop level and I'm always carrying tons of speed for that turn - not to mention any and all preceding ones.

Could have been messy.

Or really cool.

Stagnant parcels of air on unstable days in the desert are among the worst for landing.

Not anywhere close to the old Frisbee in the middle of the Brace Mountain LZ - or, for that matter, the taxiway sign on the SouthEast approach to the old Frisbee in the middle of the Ridgely Airpark LZ.

NMERider - 2017/11/27 20:44:48 UTC

We can't always postpone landings in turbulence.

No. But we can ALWAYS dive our gliders to the surface an level off low with plenty of airspeed. When you're in control with crisp speed two feet off the deck it's pretty tough for Mother Nature to fuck you over.

I was taught to land with zero VG for this reason.

Anybody ever teach you to roll it in on the wheels?

Lateral control is easier to lose than pitch control and harder to regain. Getting turned downwind or cartwheeling in has been fatal or disastrous to many pilots.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27086
Steve Pearson on landings

Steve Pearson - 2012/03/28 23:26:05 UTC

I can't control the glider in strong air with my hands at shoulder or ear height and I'd rather land on my belly with my hands on the basetube than get turned downwind.

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25536
Whoops! Snapped another tip wand :-O

NMERider - 2012/03/14 15:17:14 UTC

I refuse to come in with both hands on the downtubes ever again. I have had some very powerful thermals and gusts kick off and lost control of the glider due to hands on the downtubes. I prefer both hands on the control bar all the way until trim and ground effect. I have been lifted right off the deck in the desert and carried over 150 yards.

I like what Steve Pearson does when he comes in and may adapt something like that

When you're on the control tubes you're pretty much a passenger.

I was taught to run out my landings in high surface turbulence in order to maintain lateral control. It works well when I do it and I break downtubes when I decide to look cool and flare the glider. So, loose VG and running the landing in high surface turbulence work well for me regardless of whether I'm using drag augmentation. I still like to get my feet planted ASAP. The longer I linger near the ground but not on the ground the more vulnerable I become.

Anybody ever teach you to roll it in on the wheels?

Ryan Voight - 2017/11/28 17:19:51 UTC

For educations sake, someone should address this... guess I will. It's a common misconception to assiciate the effects...

Great start on the education, Boychick.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=35737
repetitive landings in turbulent areas continued from another thread

NMERider - 2017/11/29 02:54:45 UTC

Now, don't you care about pilot safety and the future of this sport?

Not in the SLIGHTEST and only the future of "this sport" as defined by him and his u$hPa sleazebag buddies.

I care very much about pilot safety and the future of this sport which I why I put a lot of time, effort and expense into a project that would allow pilots to fly routes and land places they wouldn't otherwise attempt without reliable glide path control.

How:
- much glide path control do we need if we limit our final legs to a max of the two hundred feet specified in the RLF Special Skill requirement?
- good an idea is it to put yourself in a situation in which you can't safely land minus a drag chute?

By providing pilots with unparalleled ability to get their gliders down into places they might otherwise overshoot and crash the sport becomes safer and more fun.

For some, perhaps.

The result is we get more pilots flying farther and more often.

Might we get pilots flying more often and getting more airtime minus the hassle, time, expense, extra manpower involved in XC retrieval?

Pilots become interested in moving up to new and better performing equipment as they more rapidly outgrow their older equipment.

And look what Wills Wing is trying to do in their effort to get and keep more people in the sport:

http://www.willswing.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/1000x667_easy_flyer_news_7-768x512.jpg

For me this is about keeping the sport alive longer than it might otherwise last.

http://www.willswing.com/aerotow-release-attachment-points-for-wills-wing-gliders/
Aerotow Release Attachment Points for Wills Wing Gliders

Always use an appropriate weak link with a finished length of 1.5 inches or less.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 19:39:17 UTC

Weak links break for all kinds of reasons.
Some obvious, some not.

The general consensus is the age old adage... "err on the side of caution".

The frustration of a weaklink break is just that, frustration.
And it can be very frustrating for sure. Especially on a good day, which they tend to be. It seems to be a Murphy favourite. You'll be in a long tug line on a stellar day just itching to fly. The stars are all lining up when *bam*, out of nowhere your trip to happy XC land goes up in a flash. Now you've got to hike it all the way back to the back of the line and wait as the "perfect" window drifts on by.

I get it.
It can be a pisser.

But the "other side"... the not cautions one... is not one of frustration, it's one of very real danger.
Better to be frustrated than in a hospital, or worse.
No exaggeration... this is the fire that the "other side" is made of. Best not to play with it.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

NMERider - 2013/02/19 22:56:19 UTC

I will appreciate that it is the tug pilot's call as to the maximum breaking strength of any so-called weak link system and not mine.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467
weak links

Jim Rooney - 2007/07/22 22:30:28 UTC

I've heard it a million times before from comp pilots insisting on towing with even doubled up weaklinks (some want no weaklink). I tell them the same thing I'm telling you... suck it up. You're not the only one on the line. I didn't ask to be a test pilot. I can live with your inconvenience.

We need people flying and wearing out or outgrowing their equipment.

Maybe the manufacturers do. Hang gliders reached their final performance and handling plateaus a couple decades ago. I only owned two gliders over an ownership career that ran from early 1980 to the end of the 2008 season. They were both the hottest ships of their days UP Comet 165 and WW HPAT 158 and I never had the slightest degree of regret. And I kicked significant ass with both of them.

We need pilots who are enthusiastic about flying...

Bullshit. We need pilots who are enthusiastic about spot landing on the old Frisbees in middle of the LZ. Name something else we're teaching and training for.

...and whose enthusiasm is contagious to their friends and coworkers and the people they meet when they go places and when they land out.

How many people have come into the sport via those avenues? The local club for zillions of years did a display at the annual "Smithsonian Kite Festival" on the Mall. TONS of interest, people swarming all over the display. I don't think we ever got one single participant for the effort.

I think the person who's gonna do this, someone we might POSSIBLY want in the sport, is gonna do it - 'specially in this age of the internet and online videos.

Pilots who are afraid to land out...

...aren't really pilots and have total shit instruction anyway. If you're afraid to land out it's 'cause you haven't been taught and/or learned on your own how to fly.

...don't meet anyone new...

Rubbish. Ya meet new people left and right at the local site. Participants and spectators.

...and they often lack the enthusiasm of pilots who are more motivated to fly new places or just push it harder than would otherwise do.

I don't think ANYBODY going into the sport lacks enthusiasm. But u$hPa and the players have a great knack for beating it out of them - what with the degradation involved in mandatory tandem "training" and upright-only control tubes flying / stunt landing practice harnesses.

In order to learn to fly these things you first need to get out from under the control of the assholes instructing and towing you and unlearn the mountains of total crap you've been fed and had to swallow to get a useable rating.

Zack C - 2012/06/02 02:20:45 UTC

I just cannot fathom how our sport can be so screwed up.