bridles

[Steve Davy]

Just read what Jim Rooney writes and do the complete opposite and you will be in real good shape.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKUvKE3bQlY

[Tad Eareckson]

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15337
unhooked take off clip

Tad Eareckson - 2010/02/18 00:21:19 UTC

What if we did the PRECISE OPPOSITE? What if we did all that other stuff but said neither "hooked in" nor "clear"? What if we all shouted "UNHOOKED!" a second and a half before launch? It would scare the crap out of everybody and immediately draw a dozen pairs of eyes to the suspension.

"Hi, I'm George. I'm unemployed and I live with my parents."

Pure genius! Owe ya big time.

(Should've been, "My name is...")

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=14312
Tow Park accidents

Jim Rooney - 2009/11/10 21:31:08 UTC

Yup the 914 rocks, but the 912S is my favorite.

The 914's power comes at a cost and is actually only seen on a tandem tow. The cost is that they are absolute maintenance whores. They break often and are very very expensive to fix. We've gotten used to saying "there's an other six grand" whenever they take a dive (and we fix our own). I love the power, but I'd never own one.

Here's the thing too... we don't boost (use the turbo) you solo. It's too much power... the glider can't keep up (climbrate). I've had one pilot that could... but that was Bo

We were talking about it one day and he wanted to see if he could chase a full turbo tow. He did, but said it wasn't easy or desirable.

I like the 912S.
Slam the throttle forward to the stops and just worry about a smooth transition. Easy Peasy

.02usd

Yup the 914 rocks, but the 912S is my favorite.

- I'm sure the feeling is mutual.

- So when was the last time you flew one? Or anything? My guess is 2016/09/29.

- And here I was thinking that cool Aussie type dudes spelled "favorite"...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 19:39:17 UTC

The frustration of a weaklink break is just that, frustration.
And it can be very frustrating for sure. Especially on a good day, which they tend to be. It seems to be a Murphy favourite.

...with the extra vowel. What happened, mate? Did you slip up? Or was this before you learned all the codes required for becoming a cool Aussie type dude?

The 914's power comes at a cost...

So did yours. The sport was headed down the sewer anyway but you did a pretty good job of accelerating it.

...and is actually only seen on a tandem tow.

- Wow. What a cool pseudo-intellectual way of saying:

...and we only use it for tandems.

- What's a tandem tow? Can't a light tandem...

7-14522
http://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5517/14036301121_17849a6a04_o.png


...be a lot lighter than a heavy solo tow? Nah, I guess we really don't wanna open up the actual flying weight can o' worms - do we?

The cost is that they are absolute maintenance whores.

- Which is another way of saying that neither the planes nor their engines are designed all that well, right? And I know this to be a fact from watching what was going on with the Ridgely operation and conversations with Sunny and Adam.

- Just like their drivers.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3600
Weak link question

Jim Rooney - 2008/11/24 05:18:15 UTC

I've personally refused to tow a flight park owner over this very issue. I didn't want to clash, but I wasn't towing him. Yup, he wanted to tow with a doubled up weaklink. He eventually towed (behind me) with a single and sorry to disappoint any drama mongers, we're still friends. And lone gun crazy Rooney? Ten other tow pilots turned him down that day for the same reason.

Every single one of you motherfuckers as far as I'm concerned. Or can you name one who whispered a word of public condemnation of this bullshit in general and you in particular? And that's to this very day with any benefit of hindsight that some of you dickheads might have required.

They break often and are very very expensive to fix.

- Lessee... Can anybody think of any other shit involved in Dragonfly aerotowing that...

http://ozreport.com/13.238
Adam Parer on his tuck and tumble

Adam Parer - 2009/11/25

Due to the rough conditions weak links were breaking just about every other tow and the two tugs worked hard to eventually get everyone off the ground successfully.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Davis Straub - 2011/08/26 14:04:52 UTC

We had six weaklink breaks in a row at Zapata this year. Russell Brown (tug pilot, tug owner, Quest Air owner) said go ahead and double up (four strands of Cortland Greenspot). He knows I used his Zapata weaklink in Big Spring (pilots were asked to tell the tug pilot if they were doing that).

http://ozreport.com/5.126
Flytec Dragonfly

USAFlytec - 2001/07/14

Steve Kroop - Russell Brown - Bob Lane - Jim Prahl - Campbell Bowen

The tail section of the Dragonfly is designed so that it can accept in-line as well as lateral loads. Furthermore the mast extension, which is part of the tow system, is designed to break away in the event of excessive in-line or lateral loads. The force required to cause a breakaway is roughly equivalent to the force required to break the double weaklink used on the tail bridle. More simply put, the mast would break away long before any structural damage to the aircraft would occur.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=865
Tandem pilot and passenger death

Martin Henry - 2005/09/09 17:05:50 UTC

What is known, the event (2002/08/17 - William Woloshyniuk / Victor Cox) occurred at or near the departure from the tug. The departure from tow was reported (by the tug operator) to be a violent separation. The tug (Moyes) suffered a failed vertical pylon on the upper portion of the tug end V bridal, just prior to the tug end weak link failure.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27909
Dragonfly Accident at Lookout

Jim Rooney - 2012/06/09 03:05:22 UTC

BTW, you have no need or use of reminding me of the other tug pilot that we lost.
She was a friend of mine and an exceptionally close friend of my mates.
You will likewise not be able to inform me of anything regarding her accident.
Allow me to inform you.
She was a rookie and it was a rookie mistake made under duress and extremely low.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=36446
Mark Knight dies in Dragonfly crash

Davis Straub - 2014/02/24 13:23:27 UTC

I assume at the Phoenix Regional airport northwest of the Francisco Grande (Francisco Grande, Casa Grande, Arizona, USA)

Matt Barker

He was getting ready to land the tug yesterday evening and it spun in and we lost Mark.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Mark Frutiger - 2013/02/08 19:12:21 UTC

Zack hit the lift a few seconds after I did. He was high and to the right of the tug and was out of my mirror when the weak ling broke. The load on the tug was not excessive as with a lockout, but I was not surprised when the weak link broke. I was still in the thermal when I caught sight of Zack again. I did not see the entry to the tumble, but I did see two revolutions of a forward tumble before kicking the tug around to land. The thermal was still active in the area that I had just launched from so I did a go round and landed on a runway 90 degrees cross to the direction we were towing in.

...breaks often and is very very expensive to fix?

- Not a fraction as much as...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=11288
*???tandems???*

Jim Keen-Intellect Rooney - 2009/03/29 20:32:51 UTC

Me? multiple injuries. Two and a half months in hospital.

...you are.

09-20
http://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5315/29962431842_1b260f7a81_o.png


Repeatedly.

We've gotten used to saying "there's an other...

Do they say "another" as two words as well as writing it that way?

...six grand"...

If that's the case maybe it's actually only three grand.

...whenever they take a dive...

Whenever WE take a dive it's referred to as an inconvenience which increases the safety of the towing operation.

...(and we fix our own).

Would that have anything to do with...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Davis Straub - 2011/08/28 15:26:28 UTC

Then again, Russell Brown had us double up behind him after six breaks in a row at Zapata. We couldn't figure out why we had so many breaks so quickly. Maybe just coincidence.

...launch/landing cycles?

I love the power...

No shit...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30971
Zach Marzec

Jim Rooney - 2013/02/17 10:37:47 UTC

I'm not sure who you're arguing with Zack, but it's sure not me... cuz man... you've got some pretty big hangups mate.

Ra ra ra... burn the greenspot!!!!
Get real man.
You think that's all we use?
Hell, just in this thread, you seem to have missed the 200lb orange links.
Ah, but your strawman argument lives and breaths by your black and white hyperbole.
When you come back to reality, let me know.
Till then, I'm sick of it.

You're hear to argue. Plain and simple. I've got better stuff to do.
Go blow smoke somewhere else. I couldn't give a rats ass... I won't be towing you so what do I care?

...motherfucker.

And hang gliding - by the way - has zero place in it for assholes who love power. Power for us is a necessary evil - we need and use it to get started. And in those times - whether it's foot only, tow assisted foot, or tow power only - we don't want it interrupted. Like by a knee suddenly giving out, a piece of chintzy fishing line increasing the safety of the towing operation for us, some dickhead in a Dragonfly fixing whatever's going on back there by giving us the rope.

Then we fly with ZERO power - of the kind you mean anyway. Just the quiet external power of ridge and/or thermal lift.

...but I'd never own one.

When was the last time you flew one? Or had the option of flying one? Or were tolerated anywhere near people who fly them?

Here's the thing too... we don't boost (use the turbo) you solo. It's too much power... the glider can't keep up (climbrate).

- Mine did just fine. Thirty extra pounds of thrust. The weight of a couple of house cats directed straight forward. Couldn't feel any difference.

- Yeah? So how come they don't seem to have any trouble whatsoever keeping up with winches?

10-03323
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2928/14397296584_1d0e5e389b_o.png


Often more powerful engines that are only lifting one aircraft/pilot combo - the by far lighter cleaner one - and hafta pull at increasingly steeper / less efficient angles.

I've had one pilot that could... but that was Bo

- Yeah, Bo's such a super cool flying dude. Such a pity the motherfucker's never posted or published a single word of anything about anything anywhere that he thought might be of benefit to any of us clueless muppets. But I guess with you out there getting everything so spot on all the time he really doesn't need to.

- Pity we don't have it on video so's we could study and perhaps begin to understand his masterful keeping-up-with-you technique. And funny you're not describing his technique so's we muppets could learn to tow more efficiently. I'd think that would be a real advantage to all concerned in prime thermal conditions...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/28 19:39:17 UTC

Weak links break for all kinds of reasons.
Some obvious, some not.

The general consensus is the age old adage... "err on the side of caution".

The frustration of a weaklink break is just that, frustration.
And it can be very frustrating for sure. Especially on a good day, which they tend to be. It seems to be a Murphy favourite. You'll be in a long tug line on a stellar day just itching to fly. The stars are all lining up when *bam*, out of nowhere your trip to happy XC land goes up in a flash. Now you've got to hike it all the way back to the back of the line and wait as the "perfect" window drifts on by.

I get it.
It can be a pisser.

But the "other side"... the not cautions one... is not one of frustration, it's one of very real danger.
Better to be frustrated than in a hospital, or worse.
No exaggeration... this is the fire that the "other side" is made of. Best not to play with it.

...'specially on comp days when you've got a big fleet of Dragonflies from all around the country trying to blast untold scores of gliders from all over the planet into the air as quickly and efficiently as possible.

And I note you didn't say we muppets were using an inferior technique when the stars were all lining up when *bam*, out of nowhere our trips to happy XC land went up in a flash. So was he using the same weak link we muppets are?

We know beyond the slightest shadow of a doubt that he WASN'T. Your dear friend Steve Kroop tells us that...

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skysailingtowing/message/4633
Weaklinks and aerotowing (ONLY)

Steve Kroop - 2005/02/10 04:50:59 UTC

Davis,

Your weak link comments are dead on. I have been reading the weak link discussion in the Oz Report with quiet amusement. Quiet, because weak links seem to be one of those hot button issues that brings out the argumentative nature of HG pilots and also invokes the "not designed here" mentality and I really did not want to get drawn into a debate. Amusement, because I find it odd that there was so much ink devoted to reinventing the wheel. Collectively I would say that there have been well over a 100,000 tows in the various US flight parks using the same strength weak link with tens of thousands of these tows being in competition. Yes I know some of these have been with strong links but only the best of the best aerotow pilots are doing this.

...the best of the best aerotow pilots are using Tad-O-Links. And you've just identified your dear friend Bo Hagewood as the best of the best of the best. Bet he wasn't using a fin either (or a two point bridle, non piece o' shit Industry Standard pro toad release, standard sidewires, a parachute actually connected to his harness).

And gee... You'd think such an extraordinarily masterful pilot as Bo would be able to go up with Lockout Mountain Flight Park 27 year old Two doing a final tandem check ride before being cleared for a high solo and avoid clipping a tree turning onto final in Two student conditions and ending up in the hospital with a dead student on his scorecard (1991/12/15).

"Keeping up with you" can ONLY mean one thing - stuffing the fucking bar. If he's not stuffing the fucking bar he's unable to hold his glider down and the situation won't be sustainable without you backing off on the power. So thank you for confirming what we all knew already - that he's flying pro toad. "Three" point is for fags and the son of a bitch wouldn't be caught dead looking like a fag. And with two point towing you can trim the glider to any imaginable speed you want.

We were talking about it one day and he wanted to see if he could chase a full turbo tow.

"Chase" it? So in addition to kicking in the turbo you were turning, diving, climbing all over the fuckin' sky - right? A NON dickhead would've used "stay with" or "follow".

He did, but said it wasn't easy or desirable.

- Maybe it would've been easier and more desirable if he'd run a bridle end up to his keel just in front of the control frame apex - the way some of us fags do.

- Oh really? So what were YOUR impressions after you and Bo swapped birds so's you could give it a go? You're the planet's greatest ever authority on everything - hang gliding in particular so you'd have HAD to have done that - if you were any kinda actual pilot. When I was coming up through a lot of the earlier history of hang gliding I jumped at every opportunity to try different stuff that fell within my range - flying sites and conditions, glider models, towing flavors. You didn't do it 'cause you only fly tandem thrill rides and dead air scooter tow landing clinic demos.

You could NEVER fly with actual high performance solo gliders after you started going into tuggie mode 'cause you could NEVER take the risk of getting your ass kicked by convicted paedophile muppet.

Also... You're too much of a fuckin' pansy to go up with anything an ounce heavier than a Standard Aerotow Weak Link.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 09:25:57 UTC

See, you don't get to hook up to my plane with whatever you please. Not only am I on the other end of that rope... and you have zero say in my safety margins... I have no desire what so ever to have a pilot smashing himself into the earth on my watch. So yeah, if you show up with some non-standard gear, I won't be towing you. Love it or leave it. I don't care.

And can anyone IMAGINE the feeding frenzy that would've ensued of the motherfucker ever DID go up on the back end with anything an ounce heavier than a Standard Aerotow Weak Link?

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31052
Poll on weaklinks

Jim Rooney - 2013/03/04 19:31:36 UTC

The accepted standards and practices changed.
I still won't tow people with doubled up weaklinks. You don't get to "make shit up". I don't "make shit up" for that matter either.

We all play by the same rules, or we don't play.
Morningside decided that they were happy with 200lb weaklink. They changed their tug's link and they don't just pass the stuff out either. If you'd like to know more about it... go ask them.
The law of the land at comps was 130lb greenspot or you don't tow. Seriously. It was announced before the comp that this would be the policy. Some guys went and made their case to the safety committee and were shut down. So yeah, sorry... suck it up.

There is no fuckin' way he could EVER afford to go up solo after that. He can't go up on a Standard Aerotow Weak Link 'cause accepted standards and practices changed and we all play by the same rules or we don't play. And he could never go up with anything an ounce heavier 'cause of all the stink he'd made year after year that...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/31 09:25:57 UTC

Oh how many times I have to hear this stuff.
I've had these exact same arguments for years and years and years.
Nothing about them changes except the new faces spouting them.

It's the same as arguing with the rookie suffering from intermediate syndrome.
They've already made up their mind and only hear that which supports their opinion.

Only later, when we're visiting them in the hospital can they begin to hear what we've told them all along.

This is the most astronomic example of painting oneself into a corner in the recorded history of anything. World's greatest authority on hang glider aerotowing had locked himself into a position in which he could NEVER afford to hook up solo behind anything anywhere. And I don't think we have any documentation that he ever did anyway once he got himself "qualified" for the front end job. Not so much as an evening sled to check out a new glider model.

I like the 912S.

And I'm sure it feels the same way about you. Give it a call sometime when you're lonely and none of your great hang and paragliding buddies are picking up.

Slam the throttle forward to the stops and just worry about a smooth transition. Easy Peasy

- If you're just worried about a smooth transition why would you slam the throttle forward to the stops? Just so's you could sound like you're a super cool ace jet jock? When I fly I worry almost constantly about stuff like keeping safe fields in range, working thermals efficiently, getting into potential midair situations, executing tight safe approaches. I don't do stupid pointless shit just to give myself something else to worry about.

- Smooth transition? You worry about that? You slam the throttle forward and if you don't transition smoothly you might flip the Dragonfly upside down and tear the wings off? Tell us how you make a rough transition and show us an example of one video somewhere. Little dickhead thinks he's Chuck fuckin' Yeager breaking the sound barrier on the X-1 when he's kicking in his Rotax four stroke afterburners. What he's actually doing is accelerating from 35 to 55 miles per hour - with nothing behind him. Amazing that his body's able to withstand the associated G forces.

- Yeah, that's about your speed. So why don't you enthrall some of us muppets with all your great hang and paragliding experiences and accomplishments? Something beyond your masterfully perfected hang glider landing flares if you don't mind.

.02usd

Overvalued by untold MILLIONS of dollars - LITERALLY.

[Tad Eareckson]

Yesterday stumbled upon this AMAZING smoking gun Zack Marzec inconvenience fatality prequel discussion back at my old Capitol club dump. Less than four years, three months before the historic global game changing shit's gonna hit the fan, features one moderately prominent asshole who will engage in the postmortem discussion, THE major player mega asshole, and a Quest manager who was on site and served as official Industry damage control officer.

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3622
Aero Towing Update

Paul Tjaden - 2008/11/08 01:23:01 UTC

Well.....tonight, I believe that I was the "dope on the rope" only I was at the front end. I asked Peter Kane from Richmond to be my second victim and he stupidly agreed. A decision was made to once again use the "Falcon on wheels" that Rhett had flown the previous night. I assumed that Peter would use a V bridle to keep the bar pressure light but when I went out to hook on he said he wanted to use a pro tow bridle and that he felt confident that bar pressure would not be an issue. I decided to go ahead but was inwardly concerned that I needed to really keep the speed slow so as not to risk forcing Peter too high above me at low altitude on initial launch. Because of this, I hauled the tug off the ground before it was really ready to fly and I got behind the power curve. I heard the prop stall and felt the plane wallow as I clawed a few feet skyward. Lowering the nose a bit, I was able to get the wing flying again but the huge trees at the south end of the runway were fast approaching and I appeared to be just about level with their tops. I judged that Peter still had room to land straight ahead so I gave him the rope and then easily climbed out while watching Peter, indeed, stop well short of the trees.
I discussed my screw up with Jim Prahl although I already knew what I had done wrong. Peter was really growing some big ones and said he'd try it again so I hooked on, let the plane fly when it was ready, got nice positive rate of climb and completed an uneventful tow. Peter said that bar pressure was fine so I hadn't needed to try so hard to keep the speed low.
Bottom line, no bent metal, no broken bones so I was very lucky to get a cheap lesson that should stick with me a long time. Thanks again to Peter for being such a good sport.

Danny Brotto - 2008/11/08 03:19:48 UTC

Hmm, Falcon pressures okay w/ protow? I've always wondered that... need to try that sometime.

Thanks for the insight and glad the treeline didn't claim you.

Marc Fink - 2008/11/08 12:18:52 UTC

I've pro-towed a falcon. Mixed results. If the plane goes slow enough and you don't mind muscling the basetube in it can be done. I've also rocketed straight up into the air off the cart totally unable to keep the pitch forces down and blown the weaklink on the other end of a turbo'd d'fly.

Jim Rooney - 2008/11/08 14:29:45 UTC

Glad you're ok Paul.
There's a saying with tug pilots... the first 500ft are MINE. Please please please do not change the way you fly the first 500ft for anything (or anyone). You will be asked many times to do so, always with good intentions. Don't do it. If they can't hang (and they can, even if they don't realize it), then that's their problem, not yours.

Protowing Falcons. I find it to be a technique thing, and not a flying technique thing (though there is a good bit of that too), but a body position technique. It has to do with using major muscle groups and leverage to your advantage. Keeping yourself in good position is essential as well because if you blow that, no body position will help. Anyway, it's not horrible unless you're doing pushups on the bar (if you raise your shoulders, you're done for).

Paul Tjaden - 2008/11/08 13:34:33 UTC

The Falcon was quite small (a 170) for Peter and was extra heavy due to the permanently affixed, tandem type landing gear. That may have had some bearing on why Peter could deal with the bar pressure.

Paul Tjaden - 2008/11/08 21:37:40 UTC

Thanks, Jim

Good advice that I already got from Rhett.

Kevin Carter - 2008/11/15 15:08:44 UTC

If you are used to protowing, then it is not bad on any glider. The bar pressure is much easier to compensate for if control and placement is second nature. Its even easier on the newer falcons. If your arms aren't long enough, just ball up

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.chgpa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3622
Aero Towing Update

Paul Tjaden - 2008/11/08 01:23:01 UTC

Well.....tonight, I believe that I was the "dope on the rope" only I was at the front end. I asked Peter Kane from Richmond to be my second victim and he stupidly agreed. A decision was made to once again use the "Falcon on wheels" that Rhett had flown the previous night. I assumed that Peter would use a V bridle...

Three point.

...to keep the bar pressure light...

How 'bout bar position? Was that considered to be a significant issue? Just kidding.

...but when I went out to hook on he said he wanted to use a pro tow bridle and that he felt confident that bar pressure would not be an issue.

Just like bar position couldn't conceivably be an issue.

I decided to go ahead but was inwardly concerned that I needed to really keep the speed slow so as not to risk forcing Peter too high above me at low altitude on initial launch.

Great. Let's address a stupid dangerous compromise on the back end with another dangerous compromise on the front end.

Because of this, I hauled the tug off the ground before it was really ready to fly and I got behind the power curve. I heard the prop stall and felt the plane wallow as I clawed a few feet skyward. Lowering the nose a bit, I was able to get the wing flying again but the huge trees at the south end of the runway were fast approaching and I appeared to be just about level with their tops.

The south end of a three thousand foot runway to get a solo Falcon tow safely over treetop level. Keep up the great work.

I judged that Peter still had room to land straight ahead so I gave him the rope and then easily climbed out while watching Peter, indeed, stop well short of the trees.

Well done, people.

I discussed my screw up with Jim Prahl although I already knew what I had done wrong. Peter was really growing some big ones and said he'd try it again...

Big ones not quite up to Zack Marzec size.

...so I hooked on, let the plane fly when it was ready, got nice positive rate of climb and completed an uneventful tow.

Always very satisfying after trimming the crap outta your safety margins for no sane reason.

Peter said that bar pressure was fine so I hadn't needed to try so hard to keep the speed low.

What did Peter say about the bar position?

Bottom line, no bent metal, no broken bones so I was very lucky to get a cheap lesson that should stick with me a long time. Thanks again to Peter for being such a good sport.

Danny Brotto - 2008/11/08 03:19:48 UTC

Hmm, Falcon pressures okay w/ protow? I've always wondered that... need to try that sometime.

Yeah, you do that Danny. You've never been a real great asset to the gene pool either.

Thanks for the insight and glad the treeline didn't claim you.

All's well that ends well - for the time being.

Marc Fink - 2008/11/08 12:18:52 UTC

Suck my dick, Marc.

I've pro-towed a falcon. Mixed results. If the plane goes slow enough and you don't mind muscling the basetube in it can be done.

What the air's doing... Not an issue. There's nothing that can't be muscled through when you need to.

I've also rocketed straight up into the air off the cart totally unable to keep the pitch forces down and blown the weaklink on the other end of a turbo'd d'fly.

Of course. If the glider end weak link doesn't keep you from getting into too much trouble the tug end one will. And we don't need to worry 'bout no FAA regs or u$hPa SOPs that mandate that front end weak links be heavier than the back enders.

Jim Rooney - 2008/11/08 14:29:45 UTC

Hey Jim. Haven't heard much from ya in the past couple years. How's tricks?

Glad you're ok Paul.

Goes without saying. You're always glad everyone's OK.

There's a saying with tug pilots...

"GET BEHIND ME WITH A STRONG LINK AND I WON'T TOW YOU!!!"

...the first 500ft are MINE.

'Cause 425 foot clearance from the treetops is the absolute minimum we professional pilots are able to handle!

Please please please do not change the way you fly the first 500ft for anything (or anyone).

Good thing he's got you there to remind him right after he's posted his incident report. (What was that you called him at the diner in Ridgely that evening, Paul? Mister Know-It-All?)

You will be asked many times to do so, always with good intentions. Don't do it. If they can't hang (and they can, even if they don't realize it), then that's their problem, not yours.

- And we're towing them pro toad - decertified and in violation of our FAA exemption - for what reason?
- But for the love of Jesus don't tow them with a Tad-O-Link on their end. Near certain death for one or more pilots every flight.

Protowing Falcons. I find it to be a technique thing, and not a flying technique thing (though there is a good bit of that too), but a body position technique.

What another load of pseudo-intellectual total shit.

It has to do with using major muscle groups and leverage to your advantage.

Keeping yourself in good position is essential as well because if you blow that, no body position will help.

Yeah, it's all about techniques, major muscle groups, leverage. The reason there's no special skill signoff for it is because it's too complex to teach and/or measure. It's mostly a state of mind thing.

Anyway, it's not horrible unless you're doing pushups on the bar (if you raise your shoulders, you're done for).

Done for? Funny you never mentioned anything along those lines in the Zack Marzec postmortem discussions.

Paul Tjaden - 2008/11/08 13:34:33 UTC

The Falcon was quite small (a 170) for Peter and was extra heavy due to the permanently affixed, tandem type landing gear.

Let's all ballast up when we're flying pro toad then. Funny we never heard anything along those lines either.

That may have had some bearing on why Peter could deal with the bar pressure.

Smooth air being another.

Paul Tjaden - 2008/11/08 21:37:40 UTC

Thanks, Jim

Good advice that I already got from Rhett.

But it's just so much better hearing stuff from Jim.

Kevin Carter - 2008/11/15 15:08:44 UTC

If you are used to protowing, then it is not bad on any glider.

Really? Let's see what the manufacturer says...

http://www.willswing.com/aerotow-release-attachment-points-for-wills-wing-gliders/
Aerotow Release Attachment Points for Wills Wing Gliders - Wills Wing

MODEL TOP RELEASE LOCATION

Falcon 140, 170, 195 - On keel, just below cross bar

The bar pressure is much easier to compensate for if control and placement is second nature.

And both your arms are five feet long.

Its even easier on the newer falcons. If your arms aren't long enough...

See above.

...just ball up

Note: The higher the top tow point the better. If the glider is equipped with a DHV (longer than Wills Wing standard length by 8 inches) it is better to tie the release to the keel rather than attach it to the hang loop.

Missed ya on the Zack Marzec discussions, Kev. Too bad, we needed all the expert advice and opinions we could get for that one.

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=36433
Aerotowing a Discus C

PabloM - 2019/04/23 21:51:38 UTC

I want to aerotow a Discus C
Where do i have to attach the v cord

I dunno...

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=16265
weaklinks

Kinsley Sykes - 2010/03/18 19:42:19 UTC

In the old threads there was a lot of info from a guy named Tad. Tad had a very strong opinion on weak link strength and it was a lot higher than most folks care for. I'd focus carefully on what folks who tow a lot have to say. Or Jim Rooney who is an excellent tug pilot. I tow with the "park provided" weak links. I think they are 130 pound Greenspot.

I'd focus carefully on what folks who tow a lot have to say. Or Jim Rooney who is an excellent tug pilot.

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Kinsley Sykes - 2011/08/25 04:12:33 UTC

An eminently qualified tandem pilot reported a random incident that we all could learn from

Or maybe Lauren Tjaden who is an eminently qualified tandem pilot. On maybe give Cloud 9 a call. See what Trisa has to say.

Maybe the guy named Tad. You won't be able to see the old threads 'cause your local coffee shop owner basemented them all then put his basement off limits 'cause he was getting tired of being thanked so much for making the worlds largest hang gliding community such a friendly place to visit and hang out in. But maybe you can look him up somewhere. I understand he now has an organization.

What does it say in the fuckin' manual?

http://www.aeros.com.ua/manuals/DiscusC_manual_en.pdf

(Nothing, by the way. And they have a section on aerotowing - immediately followed by a section on "TRIMMING YOUR GLIDER IN PITCH".

By the way... What are you gonna use for the focal point of your safe towing system, where are you gonna put it, and what are you expecting it to do for you?

Upper bridle / primary release point... You can't get into much trouble starting out with it at the control frame apex or a couple inches forward. Start there if you don't get any help, see how it feels, keep trimming forward until you get light, comfortable positive pitch response.

Dan Lukaszewicz - 2019/04/24 17:41:07 UTC

On a high performing king posted glider like the Discus it's possible to have the third point of your tow bridle attach to the hang loop or carabineer since the pitch pressure is fairly light.

Very well stated, Lucky. Any thoughts on why Wills Wing - which DOES post specs for their gliders' trim points - refers to the upper point as the SECOND?

[Steve Davy]

Any recommendations on the type of knot to use when attaching the third point of a two ended tow bridle to the hang loop or a cavalry soldier whose principal weapon was a carbine, Dan?

[Tad Eareckson]

http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=36433
Aerotowing a Discus C

Jim Gaar - 2019/04/24 19:05:11 UTC

Or just go "Pro-tow" - the 2 points of the V bridle attached at or just below the shoulders. The three point or center of mass (COM) bridle is not really used on a topless wing unless the pilot chooses to, due to lower pitch pressure as LC stated above.

Have you used any towing device(s) before and on what wing?

Or just go "Pro-tow"...

Why do you have "Pro-tow" in quotation marks? Do you need to be a highly qualified professional to be able to pro tow successfully and safely? 'Cause this guy sure doesn't sound either like is one or is aerotowing with any. Are there any manuals for safely developing pro tow skills or videos we can watch to understand what's involved?

...the 2 points...

One of the points is connected to the pilot while the other is connected to the pilot. I couldn't find a picture of this configuration but it works a lot like this I-bridle:

3-11311
http://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4579/38309011086_f26fabbc50_o.png


that John Heiney - who definately knows towing - is using to aerotow with the highest imaginable safety margins.

...of the V bridle attached at or just below the shoulders. The three point or center of mass (COM) bridle...

Also known as an "N-bridle" because of the way it's hooked up to the pilot/glider system and engages the tow ring.

...is not really used on a topless wing unless the pilot chooses to, due to lower pitch pressure as LC stated above.

And always make sure never to say anything about...



...available pitch control RANGE.

Have you used any towing device(s) before and on what wing?

Sure he has. He always flies with a hook knife regardless of free, tow, glider model.

Felix Cantesanu - 2019/04/24 21:38:01 UTC

I have always Pro-towed my Discus.

And this:

03114
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3728/9655895292_f4f808fb0e_o.png


asshole always pro towed his Moyes Xtralite 'cause...

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3746/13864051003_a820bcf2b8_o.png


...he was a real pro.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bRrpHNa68iY/UQ6Pv9gRZyI/AAAAAAAAjTg/Hc22bx5122Q/s2048/20943781_BG1.jpg


And it just occurred to me...

http://ozreport.com/13.003
Forbes, day one, task one

Davis Straub - 2009/01/03 20:50:24 UTC
Forbes Airport, New South Wales

Steve Elliot came off the cart crooked and things went from bad to worse as he augured in. He was helicoptered to Orange and eventually to Sydney where the prognosis is not good. I'll update as I find out more.

There's no fuckin' way he wasn't flying pro toad and that issue may well have been a deal/neck breaker. And notice the way we never got anything in the way of a report more detailed than Davis's usual...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=59325
Paradise Airsports launch incident

...vague deliberately useless bullshit.

[Steve Davy]

The bridle clears the tow ring.

PS - I'd send her a note warning of the danger, but I no longer give a flying fuck about what happens to hang glider people.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gy-pTvgPKRI

[Tad Eareckson]

The bridle clears the tow ring.

Of course it does. What were you expecting?

I'd send her a note warning of the danger...

What danger? That's Industry Standard gear - long track record...

http://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24846
Is this a joke ?

Jim Rooney - 2011/08/25 21:40:25 UTC

See, the thing is... "we", the people that work at and run aerotow parks, have a long track record.
This stuff isn't new, and has been slowly refined over decades.
We have done quite literally hundreds of thousands of tows.
We know what we're doing.

Sure "there's always room for improvement", but you have to realize the depth of experience you're dealing with here.
There isn't going to be some "oh gee, why didn't I think of that?" moment. The obvious answers have already been explored... at length.

...slowly refined over decades, quite literally hundreds of thousands of tows, a proven system that works. Donchya think that we, the people that work at and run aerotow parks, know what we're doing?

08-19
http://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5277/30076449505_1f6ed2f804_o.png

...but I no longer give a flying fuck about what happens to hang glider people.

Darwin's doing a pretty good job of taking care of things for us now.